New home construction and third party trades

[snowcat]

I did a quick search on Google, and nothing really showed up.

The builder is telling me they do not allow third party trades.

Some things need to be done before drywall goes up.

How does one get around this?

[danno]

The home builder will not allow it at all anymore. 10 years ago you could get away with it.
Insurance purposes mostly.

Now if you are good and check on your place often you may be able to sneak in and run speaker cables and Ethernet right after the insulator is done. But most new construction has security driving around. All that stuff can be done after drywall as well with the right installer.

[Masked Bandit]

Much tougher to do that kind of stuff now, the builders want you to pay their insanely inflated prices. The insurance angle, while not 100% BS, is more smoke screen than anything.

[Jeeper1986]

when I build my house last year I asked the builder can I run speaker wires and such, he told me you can but do it after the inspection is done before the drywall go up lol, he even gave me ideas on what I could do and such, but I didn't end up doing it because I got lazy lol, I just made sure there are plugs and tv outlits where I wanted them to be so at the end there are no wires showing

[snowcat]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Much tougher to do that kind of stuff now, the builders want you to pay their insanely inflated prices. The insurance angle, while not 100% BS, is more smoke screen than anything.

That's my fear - just to make them money.

I am not interested in doing it myself, a professional company is 1/4 of the price they are wanting to charge.

It's crazy.

[C_Dave45]

I'll try to clear up WHY the big builders don't allow 3rd party contractors on their builds.

When you're building 700 or more houses a year, that's two complete houses every single day! Or more accurately, hundreds of houses being built at the same time. It requires complete control over the timeline of every single scheduled trade. These companies have taken years to find the right subtrade who will guarantee that the assigned work on every house will be done on time and on budget. The scheduling required to complete hundreds of houses on time every year is staggering.

The minute a large builder lets "Mr & Mrs New homeowner" bring in their "own" electrical guy, plumber, window guy, etc..then all kinds of problems can arise.

"Oh don't worry, our guy is a professional...." is the first response. Right. Then all of a sudden, the two days that have been allotted for "X trade" has now been completely lost. The 3rd party guy didn't show up. The 3rd party guy took 5 days instead of two. Now all the trades behind him have been delayed. The 3rd party guy wasn't QUITE the professional Mr & Mrs Homeowner claimed he was and now the builder has to repair, re-do, or replace the work done by him. Multiply these potential problems by 700 houses, by umpteen different trades, and now all the scheduling is completely thrown to shit. Not to mention the costs incurred.

It's just too much hassle for a large builder to allow the purchaser to start bringing in his own trades.

You say a "professional is 1/4 of the cost". Uh huh. Right. You can ALWAYS find someone who says they'll do a job for a 1/4 of the cost. I can assure you, these big builders grind down every single subtrade to the point that the prices they charge to these large builders are WAY below what they can normally charge.

I've worked on many jobs where the contractor has allowed the customer to bring in his own trades people (small custom home builders)...and EVERY SINGLE ONE there has been problems because of it. All of a sudden the "professional" tradesperson is Mr Homeowners brother-in-law, who does this "on the side" or nothing more than a glorified "DIY'er" who says "pffft...I can do that for a 1/4 of what the builder is charging you".

They're not all "out to rip you off"...these builders want to build the most cost effective house, in the most efficient time frame as possible. They can't do that when people start bringing in their own trades.

[speedog]

Thx C_Dave45 - sage advice from someone in the industry.

[heavyfuel]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
I'll try to clear up WHY the big builders don't allow 3rd party contractors on their builds.

When you're building 700 or more houses a year, that's two complete houses every single day! Or more accurately, hundreds of houses being built at the same time. It requires complete control over the timeline of every single scheduled trade. These companies have taken years to find the right subtrade who will guarantee that the assigned work on every house will be done on time and on budget. The scheduling required to complete hundreds of houses on time every year is staggering.

The minute a large builder lets "Mr & Mrs New homeowner" bring in their "own" electrical guy, plumber, window guy, etc..then all kinds of problems can arise.

"Oh don't worry, our guy is a professional...." is the first response. Right. Then all of a sudden, the two days that have been allotted for "X trade" has now been completely lost. The 3rd party guy didn't show up. The 3rd party guy took 5 days instead of two. Now all the trades behind him have been delayed. The 3rd party guy wasn't QUITE the professional Mr & Mrs Homeowner claimed he was and now the builder has to repair, re-do, or replace the work done by him. Multiply these potential problems by 700 houses, by umpteen different trades, and now all the scheduling is completely thrown to shit. Not to mention the costs incurred.

It's just too much hassle for a large builder to allow the purchaser to start bringing in his own trades.

You say a "professional is 1/4 of the cost". Uh huh. Right. You can ALWAYS find someone who says they'll do a job for a 1/4 of the cost. I can assure you, these big builders grind down every single subtrade to the point that the prices they charge to these large builders are WAY below what they can normally charge.

I've worked on many jobs where the contractor has allowed the customer to bring in his own trades people (small custom home builders)...and EVERY SINGLE ONE there has been problems because of it. All of a sudden the "professional" tradesperson is Mr Homeowners brother-in-law, who does this "on the side" or nothing more than a glorified "DIY'er" who says "pffft...I can do that for a 1/4 of what the builder is charging you".

They're not all "out to rip you off"...these builders want to build the most cost effective house, in the most efficient time frame as possible. They can't do that when people start bringing in their own trades.

There's no such thing as on time or on budget in that world. Not even a little bit. I avoid builders/contractors like the plague unless they have a credit card right then and there because over the years, it's the same fuckin thing 90% of the time. Communication is clear and efficient until the job is done, then when it's time to pay people forget how to use caller ID, invoices go missing, long list of bullshit goes on and on and on, and that plays a role in the slowdown process. I see where Dave is coming from tho, too many glorified DIY'ers out there that ultimately fuck everything up. Builders/contractors do grind the shit out of trades and sub trades, (another reason I enthusiastically refuse to cater to this crowd) but they're not doing it to get you the best value, but rather so they can double dip all over the place and mark everything up, which ultimately makes the "we need to be in control" angle, the true smoke screen. You get what you pay for, and that entire world is all about the lowest bidder getting the job. Think about it.

But what do I know?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by heavyfuel


I avoid builders/contractors like the plague unless they have a credit card right then and there because over the years, it's the same fuckin thing 90% of the time.

You don't deal with the builders/contractors I'm talking about.



Originally posted by heavyfuel


but they're not doing it to get you the best value, but rather so they can double dip all over the place and mark everything up,

Soooo.....they should provide the trades, schedule their time, coordinate with, pay for materials and services up front, and NOT make any money on? :rolleyes:



Originally posted by heavyfuel
But what do I know?
A valid question.

[snowcat]

It's low voltage Ethernet and speaker.

150 dollars for one zone of speaker?
300 dollars for double Ethernet?

It's a rip.

[colinxx235]

Glad Dave spoke up about all those issues.

It is a living nightmare when someone brings in their own guy most times.

Markup is sure not 400% as suggested in your post. Homebuilders wish they were making 400% on homes :rofl:



If you or a friend can do something "cheaper" to the house, do it after it is turned over in that case :dunno:

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by snowcat
It's low voltage Ethernet and speaker.

150 dollars for one zone of speaker?
300 dollars for double Ethernet?

It's a rip.

Look at it this way...you can now put that $300 bill into your mortgage instead of paying for it cash. An extra $1.95/month. :rofl:

[wtf im nameless]

Originally posted by snowcat
It's low voltage Ethernet and speaker.

150 dollars for one zone of speaker?
300 dollars for double Ethernet?

It's a rip.

How much were you expecting to pay for that? You can't be serious about wanting to get that done for 1/4 the price, are you? No one is going to pull those for $112.50 including parts and labour.

[snowcat]

Originally posted by wtf im nameless


How much were you expecting to pay for that? You can't be serious about wanting to get that done for 1/4 the price, are you? No one is going to pull those for $112.50 including parts and labour.

Just going off what I was quoted from a reputable company was all bro. They then wipped out a sheet of their in house contractor, Visions, with these wonderful numbers.


FYI, ethernet is 8 cents a foot.

[tnuc]

I agree with C_Dave45. We do exterior work for builders along with insurance companies. Few years back we had the homeowners wanting to get their own windows or skylights done when they get their insurance claim and then couple months down the road we would get calls for leaky roofs , and behold it is the skylight. The main reason they use their own guys as well is because they have a relationship with the sub trade they are using and generally do a %10 hold back on pay in case of any deficiencies.

[speedog]

So one is spending maybe $300,000 or more on a new home and is upset about $300 because they think it is inflated?

Reality check, why wasn't this negotiated into the initial build instead of after the fact? It's not like plumbed in speakers and ethernet are something that's just come on the market in the past few months.

[benyl]

Originally posted by snowcat
It's low voltage Ethernet and speaker.

150 dollars for one zone of speaker?
300 dollars for double Ethernet?

It's a rip.

Go in and negotiate with Visions.

I did. Saved me a bundle. Then again, I have $7K worth of structured wiring.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


Look at it this way...you can now put that $300 bill into your mortgage instead of paying for it cash. An extra $1.95/month. :rofl:

I was expecting this to be some $3000 job the builder was trying to charge $15,000 for. But fuck me, who's got time to fuck about for a $200 savings on a $3-400,000 (or more) house.

[Deeznuts]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch


I was expecting this to be some $3000 job the builder was trying to charge $15,000 for. But fuck me, who's got time to fuck about for a $200 savings on a $3-400,000 (or more) house.

Holy crap $15,000?! What exactly does this include?
Multiple CatX runs to every room, speakers to every room, home automation, the whole shebang??

I am thinking about wiring for my new home build as well. My guess in cost was in the same ball park $3,000, but haven't gotten to that stage with the builder yet...

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Deeznuts


Holy crap $15,000?! What exactly does this include?
Multiple CatX runs to every room, speakers to every room, home automation, the whole shebang??

I am thinking about wiring for my new home build as well. My guess in cost was in the same ball park $3,000, but haven't gotten to that stage with the builder yet...
Read the whole thread. The OP's beef is regarding a $300 bill. Not $3,000

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by heavyfuel
what do I know?

After reading all that, I'd say you don't know much about it.

You have opinions that, will no doubt be true of some but, are not true of the majority.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[revelations]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


+1

However he probably needs to pinch pennies with all the tickets he is getting :rofl:

Nah, hes doing OK with all the YouTube revenue. ;)

[Cos]

.

[wtf im nameless]

Originally posted by Deeznuts


Holy crap $15,000?! What exactly does this include?
Multiple CatX runs to every room, speakers to every room, home automation, the whole shebang??

I am thinking about wiring for my new home build as well. My guess in cost was in the same ball park $3,000, but haven't gotten to that stage with the builder yet...

A real home automation system will cost you between $20-$75/foot of developed space depending on what you want to do. This could include pre-wire, equipment racks, home network, battery backup, distributed audio, distributed video, security, cameras, lighting control, motorized curtains/shades, media room, touch panels, access/gate control, etc...

Pre-wire for a system like that usually comes in around $3-$7/square foot of developed space.

Here's an example of a pre-wire for a larger system I did earlier this year. 50+ speakers, 17 TVs, there's well over 50,000 feet of low voltage wire in the home:

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/Automation/photo1_zps245833ff.jpg

[Mibz]

Originally posted by benyl
Go in and negotiate with Visions.

I did. Saved me a bundle.