Justin Trudeau kicks senators out of Liberal caucus

[Vagabond142]

Well... his respect points from me just went up.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/29/justin-trudeau-kicks-senators-out-of-liberal-caucus-in-bid-to-show-hes-serious-about-cleaning-up-red-chamber/

Important bit:



OTTAWA – Liberal leader Justin Trudeau has kicked his 32 Liberal senators out of the Liberal caucus, appearing in a single stroke to seize the agenda on Senate reform from both the Harper government and the opposition NDP.

“There are no more Liberal senators,” he said bluntly Wednesday morning. Instead, the senators must now sit as independents in the red chamber.


Dude is making a serious play for the next election, and I can't say I disagree with his decision. With the Conservative Senate scandal last year, and lots of promises but no action from Conservatives and the NDP, Trudeau actually followed through and removed the Senators from having a direct Liberal influence. This will be interesting to watch as we get closer to the next election :drama:

[01RedDX]

.

[killramos]

Kicking them out of caucas means nothing. They are still liberals, they will still attend the conventions. The only difference is they aren't invited to the caucas pow wows any more.

Anyone who says this is anything but show boating is retarded.

[Hakkola]

I don't think I know enough about Canadian politics to understand why this is a good thing, I like Justin Trudeau but this seems like it would give the liberals less power until the election.
Did his senators do something wrong as well? I thought it was conservative senate members?
I'm not saying it's the wrong move, I just don't know much about this.
I'm guessing that he doesn't like the way the senate works so won't let his members take part anymore.

[MGCM]

maybe he can save us from Harpers plan for private healthcare:thumbsup:

[CapnCrunch]

Its kind of an all or nothing move, but I like it.

[Vagabond142]

Hakkola:

In short, Conservatives and NDP have both been promising to divorce the Senate from the Commons. As it stands, Conservatives own both houses, and therefore can pass through pretty much anything they want (within reason). Trudeau just up and DID IT, so that the Liberals in Senate are now Liberal Independants, and the Liberals in the Commons are the actual Liberal caucus.

The following is my opinion only:

Yes, it is a bit show boat-y, but it also shows that Trudeau is not fucking around. He has a strong platform (something rare for a Liberal), and is working to gain the popular vote instead of just counting on it happening like Harper is for the next election. Watch Trudeau, I get the feeling that he isn't done yet. If he can keep his platform strong, I can honestly see the Liberals making the official opposition, if not the majority, next election. Canada has a history of see-sawing on which party is in power, but for once I actually feel like a politician "gets it," in terms of what the voting public wants and forming their platform around that. The Senate has been a sticky issue for years, and in one fell swoop, Trudeau a) solved it for his party and b) showed he isn't afraid to swing some big balls around.

[killramos]

Justin Trudeau doesn't have a platform. The only thing he has actually thrown his weight behind is legalizing marijuana...

Justin Trudeau is currently running on a pretty face, a famous last name, exhaustion with consecutive conservative government, and getting high.

It would be one thing if he actually said otherwise but he doesn't actually have any balls. He is a chicken shit who is running his election the same way Barb Higgins ran her mayoral campaign.

What you are voting for in the liberals is the same as always. A group of elitists from Ontario and Quebec who think they know what's best for the country and will government on their opinions.Trudeau is just the latest puppet and has no substance...

Feel free to let me know all the other bold political moves justin has made or promised.

[Vagabond142]

Well, at least we know where Killramos stands in politics :eek:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by killramos
Justin Trudeau doesn't have a platform. The only thing he has actually thrown his weight behind is legalizing marijuana...

Justin Trudeau is currently running on a pretty face, a famous last name, exhaustion with consecutive conservative government, and getting high.

It would be one thing if he actually said otherwise but he doesn't actually have any balls. He is a chicken shit who is running his election the same way Barb Higgins ran her mayoral campaign.

What you are voting for in the liberals is the same as always. A group of elitists from Ontario and Quebec who think they know what's best for the country and will government on their opinions.Trudeau is just the latest puppet and has no substance...

Feel free to let me know all the other bold political moves justin has made or promised.

:clap:

[faiz999]

Originally posted by killramos
Justin Trudeau doesn't have a platform. The only thing he has actually thrown his weight behind is legalizing marijuana...

Justin Trudeau is currently running on a pretty face, a famous last name, exhaustion with consecutive conservative government, and getting high.

It would be one thing if he actually said otherwise but he doesn't actually have any balls. He is a chicken shit who is running his election the same way Barb Higgins ran her mayoral campaign.

What you are voting for in the liberals is the same as always. A group of elitists from Ontario and Quebec who think they know what's best for the country and will government on their opinions.Trudeau is just the latest puppet and has no substance...

Feel free to let me know all the other bold political moves justin has made or promised.

meh, no bold promises=no promises broken.

damned if you do and damned if you don't.

honestly, who else would you want to vote for?

harper is terrible, his economic policies are shit and he's a terrible representative of the canadian ppl.

i know it shouldnt matter but id rather have a young, fresh faced PM than an old boring fart like harper.

im purely speculating, but i think the liberals will merge with the NDP and sweep the elections quite handily.

justin already has ontario and quebec locked up. he'll probs have the maritimes as well. alberta is never going to vote for him, so who cares..and BC is itching to put a liberal in.

i don't even vote but JT has this next election in the bag. he shouldnt even campaign...ppl are gonna vote for him for many reasons that dont involve his official platform

[01RedDX]

.

[suntan]

Holy shit. Well I guess lots of you don't remember Chretien and his massive, massive cuts to health care that still resonate to this day.

And NEP.

[Seth1968]

...and Adscam.

They're ALL POS.

[faiz999]

Originally posted by suntan
Holy shit. Well I guess lots of you don't remember Chretien and his massive, massive cuts to health care that still resonate to this day.

And NEP.

not sure i follow...JC=JT??

[suntan]

Originally posted by faiz999


not sure i follow...JC=JT?? The Cons are more corrupt and spend more than the Libs

Also, if you understand the Westminster form of parliament, and since you don't, I will explain to you that Canadians vote for a party, not a Prime Minister.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by killramos
A group of elitists from Ontario and Quebec who think they know what's best for the country and will government on their opinions.

:rofl: Yeah because I see the Conservatives are really helping the "West" out since they got in power? Hmmm no they don't seem to be oh wait... Ontario and Quebec pretty much determine who wins due to population. Yeah the Conservatives are just as much a Ontario/Quebec party as any other party. Anyone who thinks different is living in fantasie land.

[KRyn]

Canadian politics are a rather sad state of affairs. However, they make for good evening news.


Originally posted by faiz999



harper is terrible, his economic policies are shit



Please elaborate, I would like to know which ones you are referring to. If you are going to make bold claims, you should back them up.


Originally posted by suntan
The Cons are more corrupt and spend more than the Libs

Corruption in politics I can't believe it! Unfortunately you have to take the good with the bad. It's like choosing a cell phone provider, you pick the one that is going to use the most lube when they take you from behind for all you are worth. Let us not forget the Liberal sponsorship scandal now.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


:rofl: Yeah because I see the Conservatives are really helping the "West" out since they got in power? Hmmm no they don't seem to be oh wait... Ontario and Quebec pretty much determine who wins due to population. Yeah the Conservatives are just as much a Ontario/Quebec party as any other party. Anyone who thinks different is living in fantasie land.

Yep.

Cater to Quebec and Ontario at the expense of the other provinces.

That will never change unless the west separates.

[killramos]

This isn't the tonight show. I could give a flying rats ass if your prime minister is likeable so long as the country is being run well.

There are plenty of things that I am happy with the conservative governments for:
-GST reduction
-Budget balancing
-Long Gun Registry repeal
-top of G7 in economic recovery
-improvement to Canadian self defence laws
-standing up against our weak justice system
-Standing up to the dictator dominated UN

Short list of things , people always jump on this idea that Harper is an oil or corporate crony. That he is controlled by interests in china. All claims that are unsubstantiated and unprovable.

Also you have got to be joking if you think that taxing weed is the solution to our economy. I'm not against it and neither are the majority of the Conservative party. I would even put money on a bet that marijuana is decriminalized before the next election (something the cons were working on before Trudeau ever came up with the idea btw).

Stephen Harper has an economics background and does in fact has legitimate policies on economic issues.

Voting for Trudeau is no different than Ignatieff or Dion. Same policy makers.

If you really want to elect a front man for the country well maybe you should just push for Justin Bieber for prime minister. You will end up with just as much substance as the other justin. If only 14 year olds could vote...

[01RedDX]

.

[suntan]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


I stopped reading here. If cutting your own tax that your own party created is enough to fool so many people, then what's the point. How fucking dumb are you?

Before the GST, there was a VAT tax. That tax was hidden. The Muldoon's gov't's biggest mistake was making the GST transparent and expanding the range of taxable goods and services. Economically the GST makes great sense, so it's no wonder you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Fucking read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_%28Canada%29

[faiz999]

Originally posted by suntan
The Cons are more corrupt and spend more than the Libs

Also, if you understand the Westminster form of parliament, and since you don't, I will explain to you that Canadians vote for a party, not a Prime Minister.

oh wow, thanks! i never knew that..but im glad u took the time to point me in the right direction. where would i be without your expertise in politics...plz tell me more!

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


I stopped reading here. If cutting your own tax that your own party created is enough to fool so many people, then what's the point.

Not only reduce a tax the party created, but reducing it against the advice of your own economists and causing the budget to not be balanced (the second bullshit point on his list).

[JustinL]

Originally posted by killramos

There are plenty of things that I am happy with the conservative governments for:
-GST reduction
-Budget balancing


The GST reduction was done at the worst time; right in the middle of the bubble. It was clearly a PR move that made the average consumer feel good and not a sound economic idea to stimulate an already overstimulated economy. If had been able to hold off until after the bubble burst, the move would have been more effective.

The budget balancing was done before The PCs got there. In 1997 the budget was balanced and stayed a surplus until 2 years after Harper came in 2006. By 2008 we were back to deficits. I'm not suggesting that it was in the governments complete control, just that budget balancing isn't really part of the PC track record.

[faiz999]

Originally posted by KRyn





I agree with and most everything you stated. Canadian politics are a rather sad state of affairs. However, they make for good evening news.



Please elaborate, I would like to know which ones you are referring to. If you are going to make bold claims, you should back them up.



Corruption in politics I can't believe it! Unfortunately you have to take the good with the bad. It's like choosing a cell phone provider, you pick the one that is going to use the most lube when they take you from behind for all you are worth. Let us not forget the Liberal sponsorship scandal now.


http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2008/09/15/stephen-harpers-uniquely-bad-productivity-record/

there's this article from 2008 exposing his follies. its old, but i think its relevant. i wouldn't object if you thought this was too outdated for criticism.



"http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/09/16/economic-action-plan-ads-poll_n_3933054.html"


http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/10/16/economy_is_stephen_harpers_weak_spot_despite_conservative_bragging_walkom.html


http://www.ibtimes.com/canadas-oil-industry-may-slow-after-government-limits-foreign-investments-1413672

[Hakkola]

If Harper wants to privatize healthcare and prisons that's enough for me to want any other party to win, unless he just wants there to be a private option for healthcare which there pretty much already is so it doesn't make sense.
Private prisons is a terrible, terrible idea.
Are these issues still true? I haven't been following Canadian politics much.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Hakkola
If Harper wants to privatize healthcare and prisons that's enough for me to want any other party to win, unless he just wants there to be a private option for healthcare which there pretty much already is so it doesn't make sense.
Private prisons is a terrible, terrible idea.
Are these issues still true? I haven't been following Canadian politics much.

Where the F*&K is this bullshit coming from? And when the hell were they ever "issues" to begin with?

Also, Killramos wins the interwebs. :clap:

[KRyn]

Originally posted by faiz999



http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2008/09/15/stephen-harpers-uniquely-bad-productivity-record/

there's this article from 2008 exposing his follies. its old, but i think its relevant. i wouldn't object if you thought this was too outdated for criticism.



"http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/09/16/economic-action-plan-ads-poll_n_3933054.html"


http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/10/16/economy_is_stephen_harpers_weak_spot_despite_conservative_bragging_walkom.html


http://www.ibtimes.com/canadas-oil-industry-may-slow-after-government-limits-foreign-investments-1413672

So what policies do you disagree with? You haven't yet answered my question.
Instead you provided links to articles produced for newspapers and magazines that provide no reference material and few if any stats (none of which are relevant to government policy).
Since you went off on a tangent, so will I. If you think any one politician or group of them has the ability to turn back the clock on the Canadian economy and restore the glory days of 2006/2007 you are sadly mistaken. I am not saying that Harper is infallible, but to reference a few articles and say that a weak Canadian economy is the fault of one man or group of people is ridiculous. What you meant to say is you don't like Harper because of the current economic hardship (comparatively to other times) Canada is experiencing?

[EM2FTL]

Originally posted by kertejud2


Not only reduce a tax the party created, but reducing it against the advice of your own economists and causing the budget to not be balanced (the second bullshit point on his list).

It's even funnier when you look at their rationale for doing it (Hint, it has nothing to do with good governance and everything to do with appealing to mouth-breathers in this country):

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/03/27/ian-brodie-offers-a-candid-case-study-in-politics-and-policy/



Ian Brodie, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s former chief of staff, delivered an astonishingly frank explanation today for why the Conservative government cut the Goods and Services Tax, and why he’s glad they did, even though just about every economist and tax expert said it was a terrible bit of public policy.

“Despite economic evidence to the contrary, in my view the GST cut worked,” Brodie said in Montreal at the annual conference of the McGill Institute for the Study of Canada. “It worked in the sense that by the end of the ’05-’06 campaign, voters identified the Conservative party as the party of lower taxes. It worked in the sense that it helped us to win.”

It’s not really surprising, of course, that campaign calculations lay behind the GST cuts, which have cost the federal government about $12 billion a year at the worst possible time. That’s been obvious all along.

What’s noteworthy is that Brodie, who is now a visiting fellow at the McGill institute, doesn’t shrink from publicly asserting that such a major public policy decision can still be deemed a success—even in the face of “evidence to the contrary”—if that move paid the desired political dividends.



Montreal Gazette's take on Trudeau's move (URL is somewhat telling):

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/national/Trudeau+Senate+gambit+tactical+masterstroke/9445711/story.html

[faiz999]

edit

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Where the F*&K is this bullshit coming from? And when the hell were they ever "issues" to begin with?

:


We also support the exploration of alternative ways to deliver health care. Moving toward alternatives, including those provided by the private sector, is a natural development of our health care system. This is not a concept to be feared, it is already happening in many provinces at no additional cost to Canadians. A government monopoly is not the only way to deliver health care to Canadians. (Stephen Harper, Toronto Star, November 12, 2002)

Old but there are a few quotes like that, could be where I am remembering it from.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/eppp-archive/100/205/300/liberal-ef/05-05-24/www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx@type=news&news=780


"When the Conservative government came into play we saw some headlines that they may be looking at PPPs [private-public partnerships] and talking about doing some stuff with the private sector through their [corrections] infrastructure renewal," he told the Guardian.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/13/prison-privatization-canada_n_1670755.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/feds-studying-private-prisons-as-way-to-save-money-1.967126

Like I said earlier, I don't really follow Canadian politics and that is why I asked. Where the fuck did you learn how to have a discussion?

[Toma]

Richest province in North America. All time high demand for energy.... And our Conservative corporate whores are running a deficit, while cost of living has driven average Albertan savings rates into negative territory.

Lol. Good job. A monkey would have done better IMO.

[EM2FTL]

Originally posted by Toma
Richest province in North America. All time high demand for energy.... And our Conservative corporate whores are running a deficit, while cost of living has driven average Albertan savings rates into negative territory.

Lol. Good job. A monkey would have done better IMO.

This is a federal politics thread... :nut:

[killramos]

Originally posted by Toma
Richest province in North America. All time high demand for energy.... And our Conservative corporate whores are running a deficit, while cost of living has driven average Albertan savings rates into negative territory.

Lol. Good job. A monkey would have done better IMO.

Don't disagree with you at all Toma, though this debate has centered upon federal parties and there is a difference between alberta pc's and federal conservatives.

[killramos]

In keeping with the original purpose of this thread I will leave it's here:


Liberal leader Justin Trudeau may not want the senators in a Liberal caucus any more, but they still seem like they want to be Liberals. On Wednesday morning, Trudeau announced a surprise move that all 32 Liberal members of the Upper Chamber will now be known as "formerly Liberal senators." It's a plan that sound very similar to what opposition leader Thomas Mulcair suggested in October. Trudeau said the move will reduce partisanship and make the Senate more independent.

"We have agreed that we will style ourselves as the Liberal Senate caucus," said Senator James Cowan. "I think not a lot will change." Most of the other senators seem to agree with Trudeau's move, but want to stick together.

Shocking, kicking them out of the cool kids club didn't change their political values over lunch?

They just formed a new club that Justin can't be blamed for. Thats the kind of solution to a problem that we can expect under a Trudeau government.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by killramos
-Budget balancing

Sorry what? Come again? Even in the last election he said that "deficit reduction" was the goal, not a balanced budget.
Other Conservative successes:
- Record high consumer debt
- Massive inflation of a housing bubble
- Poor economic outlook going forward
- Poor job numbers
- Over $100 billion the Conservatives issued as a bailout to Canadian banks (but called it "financial support" to make it sound like anything but a "bailout", http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/30/canada-bank-bailout_n_1466219.html)

Real "fiscal conservatist" Harper is... Some of that is the fault of the financial crisis, but as with most government fiscal policy, you don't see the results until a lot later. I suspect keeping interest rates this low this long is what we'll have to blame the Harper government for long term.

His social policies and international views are even worse. Took us from proud nation to laughing stock patsy on the world stage.

If I didn't work in the oil industry, I would never in a million years vote for these clowns. But I do, and Trudeau scares me, so unless Trudeau stops insulting the oil sands and starts talking sense, Harper for re-election!


On topic: So what if Trudeau kicked them out? They're still not elected! We still have a bunch of appointed old men making decisions for us.

[Toma]

Not really. Since I'v been making the move to the US, I've noticed that their Republicans are exactly the same as our Conservatives.

They TALK fiscal responsibility and conservatism, but deliver debt and deficit. Without fail, they cut taxes on the very wealthy, corporations, resource sector etc. Then print more money and the people fall for the imaginary prosperity. Then when shit falls apart, they blame spending and social programs, and illegals and communists.

Its hilarious.

Inequality hurts democracy, because money buys influence through lobby groups, right wing news empires like the Sun here and Fox there, and politicians directly.

And in my opinion, the conservatives are far worse than anyone in pandering to the corporates, and saying fuck you to the middle class.

[01RedDX]

.

[Xtrema]

Conservative is just Liberal with Jesus.

They are all the same.

Justin is doing this because I think some Liberal senators are about to not pass the audit.

He is just getting ahead of the problem that Harper is feeling right now.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Conservative is just Liberal with Jesus.

They are all the same.

Justin is doing this because I think some Liberal senators are about to not pass the audit.

He is just getting ahead of the problem that Harper is feeling right now.

Could very well be. I also think it's just a way to create a game Harper has to play. He kicked his senators out of caucus, now Harper has to either follow Trudeau or justify why he is keeping party politics in the Senate.

just some political posturing to create talking points.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[ExtraSlow]

Senate needs a big shakeup. I'm no Fan of JT, but this is interesting. Toss a stick of dynamite in there, and see what happens.

[hampstor]

They're still card carrying Liberals, will still attend the Liberal conventions, and there is probably still a senate Liberal caucus. This has allowed JT to appear like he's making a difference, and a way to distance himself from any embarassement that comes up in the event anymore Liberal senators embarass the party.

All that's been done is a bunch of senators have been kicked out of caucus (both CPC and Liberal). Aside from Brazzeau (because of the criminal charges), they're still going to be senators, they're still going to have a salary, pension, expense accounts, and still appointed by the prime minister.

The likelyhood we will be able to reform the senate in any meaningful way is so far fetched that I'm starting to feel any talk of it is just political smoke and mirrors.

[malbadon]

Well hampstor it's as much as I think he can do under the current system, sure its mostly "appearances", but it's a hell of a lot more than the party who was voted in to "abolish the senate" has done sadly...

On an unrelated note, happy day after tax-freedom day for Canadian corporations.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/30/tax-freedom-day-canada_n_4696661.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-business

Now for the rest of you sods, continue working for the government until mid-June.

[duaner]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Senate needs a big shakeup. I'm no Fan of JT, but this is interesting. Toss a stick of dynamite in there, and see what happens.
Agreed. If he topples Harper, I think he'll mess the West up just like his old man.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by malbadon
Well hampstor it's as much as I think he can do under the current system, sure its mostly "appearances", but it's a hell of a lot more than the party who was voted in to "abolish the senate" has done sadly...


I don't trust JT's motivations for the senate. You're talking about the guy who said he wants to keep the senate because it's what gives Quebec an upper hand over the west (Quebec has about as many senators as the 4 western provinces combined).

The CPC were fools to think they could reform the senate in any meaningful way, and if the party campaigned on a platform to eliminate the senate, someone other than Rob Ford was smoking crack. However, I don't recall a CPC party election platform of abolishing the senate - I only remember the EEE Senate senate reform platform. If they did, please share this with us.

I am no fan of Harper anymore, however he did put forward to the provinces he'd appoint senators they elect. To that end, he's appointed senators that were elected by Alberta. Chretien and Martin ignored Alberta's elected senator-in-waiting list. While it is a step, it's just another band-aid because there is no constitutional requirement for the PM to do that.

Again, would love to see senate reform - change the representation by province to be a bit more equitable (why does Nova Scotia have more seats than any of the western provinces) and have them elected rather than appointed by the PM. I just don't see how kicking senator's out of caucus achieves any of that.