Electrical advice (lighting)

[colsankey]

Problem for our reno/electrician experts:

Basement renovation was started.

A friend pulled out the 2 utility lights in the basements opposite corners to put in some recessed lighting and is having non-stop problems.

There's 2 strings of 8 lights wired up using:
23W LED/CFL housings from Rona similair to these: 23W LEF/CFL housings (http://www.rona.ca/en/fixture---serie-400-recessed-light-fixture)

and these dimmable CFL's Daylight 50k 23W dimmable CFL spirals (http://www.bowmanlamps.com/dimmable-cfl-light-bulb-spiral-50k-trudim-23w-100w-5012350k-p-15289.html)

Initially they were on dimmers300W LED/CFL compliant dimmers (http://www.rona.ca/en/dimmers---2-single-pole-sliding-dimmers)

The CFL bulbs were left on for 5 hours per the recommended instructions, then the dimmers set using the instructions.

The lights looked great and everything seemed normal after testing, but then every few days a CFL would die, usually when turning on the light switch, a pop would occasionally be heard and a the light wouldn't turn on.

In 2 cases, the CFL bulb would start to smoke and was quickly powered off and removed. An electrician friend was called in and all the components, wiring grounds and specs were checked, but nothing obvious stood out.

As a matter of testing, the dimmers were pulled and diffrent dimmers put on a single circuit of 8 bulbs, and a straight 2 pole on/off switch was put on the other circuit Nothing seemed to change and over the course of 2 weeks, 28 bulbs died. The distributor of the bulbs replaced 10 of them in case it was a batch issue, but advised the components used were acceptable for the installation.

After, one string of CFL's was pulled and some 50K LED bulbs were installed for testing. They have no issues with burn outs, but frequently dim in pulses.

Occasionally the pulses seem to happen in time to the sound of the furnace, or washing machine, but occasionally happen when no high draw electronics are on.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Summary (TL/DR):
CFL bulbs die faster than lemmings and sometimes in a fire.
LED bulbs OK but dim randomly.
Circuit breakers, wiring + grounds double checked by electrician.
Switches replaced with higher wattage dimmers and 2-pole switch
Friends stumped and I'm unsure how to help.

After discussing with another electrician friend over beers, suggestion was to replace elec panel, and install power filter/surge suppression. But estimated cost was around $1000 and that didnt include pulling a permit.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[colsankey]

90 views and no replies?

Either I've got ghosts, or :dunno:

[roopi]

I know nothing about this stuff however in my house about a year after I moved in I was getting having lights flicker throughout the entire house. It was like power surges. Had an electrition come in and he replaced something in the electrical panel. I can't remember what it was called but I beleive it was basically the main breaker.

He showed it to me before replacing it and you would see the occasional spark in the panel. Once he removed the breaker and showed me the breaker he took out he explained that when it was installed it was most likely forced in at a bad angle which caused something to bend and not make a proper connection.

He said this would result in it working correctly however it could fail at anytime and cause the surges/flickering.

Since this is only happening in your basement have you checked the breaker(s) that control those particular lights? Just a thought.

Edit: Just noticed you checked the breakers. Maybe its worth a second look?

[codetrap]

For something like that, I'd probably bring in an expert.

[mobius]

As an electrician, I see this quite often. Are the two 'strings' of lights on the same breaker? Are you having any kind of flickering/dimming in other parts of the house? My first thought would be a loose neutral, most likely somewhere between the power supply company's equipment, and your main breaker. If those lights are connected to a sub-panel off of your main panel, it could be there as well.

With an edison 3 wire system, a high resistance (loose) or broken neutral can easily destroy sensitive electronics. If there happens to be an unbalanced load between the hot phases
(say when your furnace kicks in or when your washing machine is running) and the neutral can't properly balance the load, the voltage will spike on one phase and correspondingly drop on the other.

My inlaws had a problem where the neutral broke on the overhead line feeding their house. They called it in but the supply company did not repair it right away. It was like that for 2 weeks, and the loads in their house always happened to stay balanced enough that they didn't notice anything overly wrong.

Until the day they turned the washer on just before leaving for work. With no other loads operating in the house, the voltage spiked on the phase that happened to have their brand new TV. As I found out after, they also had a grounding issue at that TV's sat receiver power receptacle. The combined issues caused an overload and short in their satellite receiver, and while searching for a path to ground, the power surge traveled through the HDMI cable and HDMI switch (both caught fire), through their TV (destroyed it as well) and finally to ground at the TV's power receptacle. They came home to a smoldering pile of melted wire and plastic and a house full of smoke. Their microwave was also dead.

Anyways, my point is that if it is a loose neutral it is a serious issue that needs to be resolved.

[Crazyjoker77]

Occasionally the pulses seem to happen in time to the sound of the furnace, or washing machine, but occasionally happen when no high draw electronics are on.

Its pretty usual to experience a voltage drop when a big load initially turns on(which . Surge protection would defiantly help with this. I've been very impressed with the performance from hubbel panel mounted surge protectors. Page 5 (http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/press/pdfs/WLBPQ001.pdf).

You also have to remember that you house is connected to the same transformer as many of your neighbors and therefor it may be there big load causing the voltage drop in your house.(ex. Your neighbor could have a massive air compressor).

It also sounds like you may be suffering from power quality issues. It use to only be a concern in commercial and industrial settings but with more and more harmonic causing high speed switching devices around its becoming much more common to happen in residential settings.

In fact the electronic ballasts and drivers in those cfl and led bulbs are just that, switching power supplies that cause harmonics. It may even be the cause of burning out those CFL bulbs as 8 of those on a single circuit might be to many. (power quality speaking not ampacity). You could experiment by switching out half(or even 6/8) the bulbs on each circuit with incandescent and see if they stop burning out.

Most residential electricians don't have the expensive meters to measure power quality or harmonics and have very little experience with it in general as I said its a fairly new issue popping up in residential.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Crazyjoker77
Its pretty usual to experience a voltage drop when a big load initially turns on(which . Surge protection would defiantly help with this. How would a surge protector help with a voltage drop?

[wtf im nameless]

Originally posted by codetrap
How would a surge protector help with a voltage drop?

I was wondering the same thing.


Assuming it's not a loose neutral it could be a problem with inrush current. LED/CFL have way higher inrush current than incandescent bulbs. Are all 16 bulbs on one dimmer?

[hrdkore]

I'm pretty sure it is the dimmer switch, you might want to try a low voltage dimmer or even solid state dimmer. CFLs don't usually last long with dimming, you should try using LED bulbs.

You are most likely burning out the ballast/ driver located in the base of the CFL. You can ask your electrician friend to use their voltmeter and measure the voltage you are getting in the house in the base where its just connected to 2 pole switch.

[firebane]

Originally posted by codetrap
How would a surge protector help with a voltage drop?

If by surge protector you mean a "power bar" then no. What they mean be referring to is a UPS of which then regulates voltage to electronics and will let you know if there is a surge or drop in voltage.

In any home if you honestly have worthwhile electronics especially with the power we have in Alberta a good UPS is good to have as they are inexpensive now.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by firebane
If by surge protector you mean a "power bar" then no. What they mean be referring to is a UPS of which then regulates voltage to electronics and will let you know if there is a surge or drop in voltage.

In any home if you honestly have worthwhile electronics especially with the power we have in Alberta a good UPS is good to have as they are inexpensive now. I understand the difference. I have a couple of APC UPS's in the house already. I just don't think Crazyjoker77 understands the difference, and he's giving advice based on it.

[Crazyjoker77]

Originally posted by codetrap
I understand the difference. I have a couple of APC UPS's in the house already. I just don't think Crazyjoker77 understands the difference, and he's giving advice based on it.

I was posting from my phone and didn't re-read it. I kinda combined two different points I wanted to make in my first statement, and it definitely came across as incorrect so I'll try to clear it up.(I'm good at math not english ><)

I linked the hubbel SS as a recommendation cause he said his electrician friend was looking to install one.

They do make combination devices that incorporate voltage regulators to protect against both spikes and sags. These are very common at my workplace due to the age of the buildings (ups are pretty much what is used in place of them on newer buildings now) and we commonly refer to the entire enclosure as suppressors or conditioners.(although not technically correct i just assumed it was like this other places. Kinda like how most sparkies call the identified conductor a neutral)

That being said I'm not really aware of any that are priced or spec'd for residential use.

Here is a pretty interesting article on surge suppressor technology and application that was used in a course I had taken in power quality.
Bathroom Material (http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/documents/en-us/brands/surgeprotection/documents/sl-30119_surgereferenceguide_11-11_singlepgs.pdf)


Now that I've tried to defend myself gonna get back on topic. I really don't like the E27 retrofit type bulbs. I got the opportunity at work to try about 25 different dimmers on several different Led fixtures and bulbs and found that controlling dimming by varying voltage (triac or SCR style) had by far the most issues.

Unfortunately the better technologies are much harder to retrofit into existing buildings due to the fact you usually need to run more wires.

0-10v worked pretty well and is probably the most widely available but do require 2 additional wires to be ran to a 0-10v compatible switch.

Step dimming worked well but require extra wires and has certain set brightness levels. half of the fixtures I tried that had this option had 100% 75% 50% other half was 100% 50% 25%. Each tap has to be switched separately so you either need 3 toggle switches or a 4 position rotary switch(4th position for off with toggle switches you just leave them all off).

There are manufacturer specific low voltage options out there that work extremely well but you are pretty limited on fixture options.(especially in a residential setting) and are pretty costly compared to what you've already spent.

I didn't get to try out any of the DALI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Addressable_Lighting_Interface) type dimmers but I imagine if you get a fixture designed for it they should work very well.(we do have lots of dali type dimming fluorescent ballast installed in a few buildings and I've never seen a work order for them in 7 years so they must be ok)

One thing that I did find interesting is that most of the "LED compatible" dimmers only means is that they added a feature where you can adjust the lowest voltage it puts out so they don't flicker or turn off when the switch goes to low.. I tried out some non led compatible dimmers and got the same amount of dimming out of the bulbs and fixtures but I was only able to go to about 75% on the switch. but the level the fixture dimmed was the same as the properly set LED compatible switch. (although it was stretched out over the whole switch)

Dimming(when it works properly to begin with) and rapid switching(think motion control) of CFL bulbs(even normal flourescents(with proper dimming ballasts) for that matter) SIGNIFICANTLY reduces the lifespan. LEDs aren't effected though.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Crazyjoker77
~snip~ No worries. I think you successfully defended yourself. :)

[rx7_turbo2]

The wording of the initial description needs to be clarified.

Are the strings of lights fed by two separate circuits (two individual circuit breakers), each feeding a separate switch? Or are both switches fed from a single circuit (one individual circuit breaker turns off all the lights)?

You mentioned during troubleshooting you replaced the dimmers with different dimmers and a 2 pole switch. Does that mean there is 3 switches? And why a 2 pole switch?

Are any of the switches 3way switches (lights can be operated from multiple locations)?

In my experience electronic dimmers for led and fluorescent fixtures can do extremely bizarre things. I'd reinstall the cfl bulbs then remove all dimmers from the equation first before moving on to more complicated and expensive possibilities. Rule the dimmers out.

[danno]

He probably means single pole switch. Which is your typical light switch controlled from one location, a 3 way is controlled at two locations.

My 2 cents is it's a bad neutral or breaker. Replace the breakers controlling these circuits and check every splice in each light fixture again. Hard to guess without seeing it. Could be a number of things after that.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by danno
He probably means single pole switch. Which is your typical light switch controlled from one location, a 3 way is controlled at two locations.

My 2 cents is it's a bad neutral or breaker. Replace the breakers controlling these circuits and check every splice in each light fixture again. Hard to guess without seeing it. Could be a number of things after that.

Trying to troubleshoot it over an internet forum is difficult at the best of times "probably" doesn't make it easier. He specifically wrote 2 pole, why? And he talks about multiple switches. Like I mentioned eliminate the dimmers first, standard single pole toggle switches are cheap, cheaper than breakers, if the problem persist after that you'll know there's something far more complicated going on.

We need a picture of how this is wired. Is there a 3 way switch with a dimmer on both ends? There's a number of possibilities regarding how it's wired that could be an issue.

Fact of the matter is this might be very tough to figure out without somebody with troubleshooting electrical experience and a meter. I've seen a number of Journeyman electricians bugger a simple lighting system and be unable to figure out the solution. Not all electricians are created equal ;)

[Crazyjoker77]

extremely slow day at work so played around with my meter and a few items I had around the bench. I knew CFL can cause harmonics but even I was shocked by the results. Hopefully this will inform some people on just how shitty CFL bulbs are.

For all the test a lutron dimmer (http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/StandAloneControls/Dimmers-Switches/SkylarkContourDimmer/Overview.aspx) led/cfl model was used. With it range adjusted to give me the lowest voltage output with the switch all the way off.

First I started off with a 75w Incandescent since electrical speakings its a perfect linear load. I got the results you would expect to see.

Channel A is the line side of the switch and channel B is the load side. channel B is at half scale since they are in phase(for the most part) to avoid them overlapping completely.


http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_100716_zpsce9580b7.jpg?t=1393021524
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_100735_zps67eb354e.jpg?t=1393021533
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_100746_zps1bd3b15c.jpg?t=1393021540

after that I tried a Led fixture. No where in the spec sheets or on the box did it say it was dimmable but I tested it anyway and it performed very well. (was actually able to bottom out the slider and think it could of dimmed even more with a different switch)
The waveform still is very acceptable.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_113449_zpsddad1c77.jpg?t=1393021559
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_113508_zps7cd690c5.jpg?t=1393021628

Last was a GE dimmable 20w CFL. Even with the dimmer at 100% there was clear indication of harmonics but as soon as you started dimming the bulb stuff got real messy. As well I could only dim the switch to about 60% any lower and the bulb would flicker or just stop working.(of course with a led/cfl compatible dimmer you can make this the lowest set point on the switch but i Had it adjusted to give me full range for the purposes of testing) and the amount it dimmed was no where near what the led of incan went down to.



http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_100622_zps7560e665.jpg?t=1393021512
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/Cmartin87/20140221_100837_zpsd0416e4e.jpg?t=1393021551

This was just with a only a single CFL bulb and adding more in parallel are only gonna add to the distortion. That dimmed waveform is not acceptable at all to feed a electronic device with IMO.

I would like to repeat and expand the test to include a dimmable f20 t5 and a LED bulb. As well I would probably use my light meter so you could actually see how much each light was capable of being dimmed and how much it dimmed at each switch setting. Also It would be beneficial to do the test without the dimmer and see how it behaves connected directly across the line. I suspect the noise shouldn't be as bad since you are now feeding it a true Sine wave instead of the chopped up one the dimmer puts out.

[rx7_turbo2]

^Very interesting!