Database/Form App Development

[Env-Consultant]

This is going to be long winded...I apologize in advance.

I'm hoping to develop a couple apps (Android based, for tablets - depending on how difficult Apple would be, I'd be willing to explore that option as well, but I absolutely hate Apple with a passion) that allows the user to enter in a pile of hierarchical data, which can then be exported to a formatted excel report/document. I have exactly what I want in mind and could draw/map it out, I'm just having a hell of a time actually making it working using the various free app developers online.

There are a couple different apps I would like to develop.

One is for forms that consultants are required to fill out and submit to regulators. The regulators have developed forms for entry; however, currently our staff members complete them by hand in the field, then manually enters them in the form. Typically these forms have 500+ entries on them, so if we could automate the process, it would save time/money. The potential to sell it to other consulting firms and oil companies, or contract it out to the regulator is definitely there. This is Alberta specific and the potential sales would be limited due to that.

The second app is to automate the a field data collection process. Again, we do this by hand in the field, then manually enter it into a program; however, the program we use is capable of handling excel imports. This app would be much easier to develop than the first one (IMO). Depending on how customizable the app is, the potential is there for huge sales.

I know those descriptions are a bit vague, but I don't want to spread ideas around at this point, as I'd like to be first to the market on these.

I have zero app development experience, but I work in database management/business process improvement everyday. I can 100% map out what I want everything to look like, what data needs to be linked, which types of fields are required, the format of the exported data, how I would like it to look, etc - I just can't physically develop the apps.

With that said, is there anyone here who is interested in working on this with me in the near future? I don't want to lay a pile of cash out to a developer - I would prefer to do an equity deal (I know :rofl: - an equity deal on something with no value). The agreement would be for a percentage of future sale. A gamble with your time, but I'm guessing for somebody who knows what they're doing, it wouldn't be a crazy amount of work and the potential for sales is high, IMO.

If nobody is interested, our IT guy and I get along really well and I know he could help me out, but he just had a newborn and likely won't have any free time (or sleep) for the next year. One of the independent contractors I work with (computer/electrical engineer) helped develop one of the most widely used O & G software suites, developed learning apps, and is an all around awesome guy - the problem is that he doesn't have time to take a shit right now with all of the projects he has on the go. I'd like to get these developed sooner than later, so those two likely won't be feasible options.

Basically, after we drew up an agreement, I'd bring you everything I've mapped out (don't worry, it won't be a pile of crap where you're asking yourself why the hell you ever thought this was a good idea), explain/draw/draft the design I'd like, and start building it with you. With that said, if I hold up my end, I 100% would expect somebody who knows what they are doing and won't draw the process out for a ridiculous time period because they lack the required skills/knowledge.

I'm super easy-going, enjoy learning new things (especially computer related), have a pile of ambition, believe in treating people with respect/being a decent human being, and I am hoping to work with somebody with similar qualities. I also plan to have more money than I can spend someday (a guy can dream can't he?) - likely won't happen with this project, but it will come eventually.

PM me if you're interested. I'm heading to Mexico on Sunday for a week, so I will likely complete all of the plans/data mapping while I'm there.

Thanks.

[AsianAfroSamurai]

What you are describing is a full blown application which happens to have an Android front end. The best way to develop these types of systems is to develop the full back end and the presentation layer whether its a web site, iOS device, Android device just becomes another view of the system. To develop such a system, you are looking at handling security (authentication and authorization), data store (which database to use - Sql Server, PostgreSQL, MySQL, etc.), what application framework (will you be using .NET or open source - PHP, RoR, Django or something else) and obviously all the associated business rules and logic.

You would then develop an API that is able to serve whatever request you want. So for example, for your Android app, it would just be a consumer of the API and its development would be purely focused on displaying and entering the data on the forms. The form itself would be saved on a server so that's it secure and properly backed up. The advantage of this is that all your core business logic for the forms are NOT on the app but in your main back-end. So if you want to change something, ie a validation rule, you don't need to update the app, just the back-end.

Most applications are now developed in this manner and the effort that you believe this requires is not trivial. Just building the back-end for your system without even fully understanding your full requirements is not a couple of days effort. At a minimum you are probably looking at a good 100-120 hours on this. If you have this in place and then you do the Android app, then you will likely save some time but just for the Android app, you are also looking at a minimum of 40+ hrs.

If you try to combine the two steps as one, all your effort will be driven from the perspective of the Android app and not what you want your system to accomplish.

So, this is not a trivial effort for someone that has the know-how. Why would I take a chance on you when I can work on my own side projects or get paid $75/hr and more to do another project in my free time. You are not even offering an equity deal. Percentage of sales is not equity. Would actually be better if you gave real equity ownership of the corporation.

So, my recommendation for you would be the following:

- Do a full specification of your application - Get all the requirements down.
- Spend time with the colleagues/friends and go through your system.
- Discuss with them how they would architect the system based on the requirements. If you can try to get all this documented.
- Then go and talk to some companies and get some specs for your app. I would even recommend separating the Android app piece from your main back-end. Get quotes from them and compare. Don't limit your search to local companies, see what's out there outside North America. Your app is niche enough that there is little risk of someone taking your code and running away with it.


The chance of you finding anyone that would work with you with the offer you are putting on the table is small. The opportunity cost of someone putting 100 hrs plus for your project with an unknown ROI is incredibly high.

Good luck!

[Env-Consultant]

I honestly do appreciate your detailed response - you're an expert in this and you were good enough to help out. With that said, I think you may be overthinking what I'm planning on building. I could be completely wrong, but I'm guessing not.

Now to answer a few questions:



Originally posted by AsianAfroSamurai
Why would I take a chance on you when I can work on my own side projects or get paid $75/hr and more to do another project in my free time.
Because I'm fucking awesome. Your ship to get in on this company has now sailed. I'm out.




Originally posted by AsianAfroSamurai
You are not even offering an equity deal. Percentage of sales is not equity. Would actually be better if you gave real equity ownership of the corporation.
Okay Kevin O'Leary - I'll change my wording to ready equity and a percentage of sales equal to the equity the person owns - that's what I meant, but I did not relay that well at 4 in the morning.




Just bustin' your balls - honestly, thanks for the reply.

[ipeefreely]

Sounds like you're trying to invent something that already been on the market for many years... but maybe it not available on android? :dunno:

For example:ERSI's ArcPad (http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/arcpad) and I think Trimble has something similar etc...

I can't see a big market for it unless its a lot cheaper... :dunno:

[A790]

Originally posted by AsianAfroSamurai
So, this is not a trivial effort for someone that has the know-how. Why would I take a chance on you when I can work on my own side projects or get paid $75/hr and more to do another project in my free time. You are not even offering an equity deal. Percentage of sales is not equity. Would actually be better if you gave real equity ownership of the corporation.

If you were so freely able to do this, why are you wasting your time responding? I outsource all the time, to the tune of low-six figures per year, and whenever someone I'm considering working with drops a bullshit line like this I immediately rule them out.

[AsianAfroSamurai]

Originally posted by A790

If you were so freely able to do this, why are you wasting your time responding? I outsource all the time, to the tune of low-six figures per year, and whenever someone I'm considering working with drops a bullshit line like this I immediately rule them out.

Uumm... Seems to be a bit of confusion here. I don't think I indicated that I am actually interested in doing this project one way or other. I am surprised that from everything I wrote, which I hope added some value to the discussion, this is what's being picked out.

The main gist of my comment is that he is asking for someone to do free work (and we're not talking about building a 5 pager web site here) basically for free. Most people with the kind of skill sets he's looking for would take on the attitude that I presented.

Frankly, at this point I don't know Env-Consultant to know whether I would want to work with him or not (and obviously vice versa).

It looks like he's an ambitious and smart guy who is going to find a way to get this going one way or another if he strongly believes in it. I'm laying out what he's expected to face with the type of approach he's taking. Most of my comment was attempting to give some depth to his project based on the information he's given. Since you are familiar with outsourced projects, you can appreciate that software development does take time. If you're building Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal, etc. based web sites there's a known framework to plug into but that's not what he's suggesting. There looks to be quite a bit of custom development that needs to be done that may not readily fit within existing frameworks.

The best actions that he can take is to find the right people (which he already seems to have within his network) that can walk through his requirements and come up with some kind of software architecture that could meet his needs. This will give a good idea of the effort involved.

Obviously, this is my opinion :). In terms of my statement that you've highlighted, I am sure within our respective areas, I know the value I bring to the table, and so do you and so does Env-Consultant. If I did have someone come to me with that attitude and I needed their expertise (and I knew they had the expertise) and they were professional, I would not fault them for understanding their own value.

[syscal]

If you find someone to work for a percentage of potential sales let me know, I have loads of projects I'd love to get free labor for!

Your plan is flawed.

[Env-Consultant]

http://makeameme.org/media/created/boy-that-escalated.jpg

I really hope I didn't offend anybody - that was never my intention. I've been working long enough to know that one of my greatest strengths is being able to recognize my weaknesses and being willing to ask for help/advice when I need it. Based on the responses, clearly I need to do some more digging. With that said, I plan on looking into ArcPad and its capabilities; while I'm proficient in ArcGIS, this project in unrelated (I.e. has nothing to do with data going into ArcGIS), but ArcPad may be customizable enough to meet my requirements. I'll have to look into its capabilities.


Anyways, thanks for the responses.

[ipeefreely]

Originally posted by Env-Consultant
I really hope I didn't offend anybody - that was never my intention. I've been working long enough to know that one of my greatest strengths is being able to recognize my weaknesses and being willing to ask for help/advice when I need it. Based on the responses, clearly I need to do some more digging. With that said, I plan on looking into ArcPad and its capabilities; while I'm proficient in ArcGIS, this project in unrelated (I.e. has nothing to do with data going into ArcGIS), but ArcPad may be customizable enough to meet my requirements. I'll have to look into its capabilities.

Anyways, thanks for the responses.
I think you would be missing out if you didn't consider putting the data in a "GIS system".

I would strongly suggest that you collect location data at the same time.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

[stillworking]

I would suggest that you consider building this in a web site rather then a native app. It would be built for much less and accessed from any browser, also allowing you to keep your religious beliefs to yourself. We had overseas freelancers develop an app(website) specific to our business which was cheap and works well.

Next, double check that Formstack or Jotform wont do what your asking for. I use Formstack for similar tasks and wherever I have to collect information ie. safety info, audits, inspections, etc, etc.
The url is accessed thru smartphones by employees in the field and it emails out copies of the completed form to the designated email addresses and all info can be pulled out in a spreadsheet on the site. Has some conditional logic as well.

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by ipeefreely

I think you would be missing out if you didn't consider putting the data in a "GIS system

That, my friend, would be a Geographic Information System System. :thumbsup:

I get what you're saying, but no kidding we are going to collect location data, including GPS locations - my point was that the data won't be used to generate visual outputs (I.e. in ArcGIS) and subsequent calculations. I was speaking from a related to ArcGIS standpoint - my fault.

Stillworking - thank you for the advice. I'll definitely dig into all of your suggestions and do some testing. I get back from Mexico on the 6th and April is a wash due to work commitments, but if I ever get something put together, I'll update the thread.

Thanks again.

[stillworking]

Was pulling out my weekly reports this morning and found Formstack's referral link. If you do sign up for it, I would appreciate if you consider using my link...
Cheers... http://www.formstack.com/ar/436618