"Peace officer" brutality.

[Modelexis]

I was denied a ride along when I requested one, they told me I needed to know someone who worked there.

Re: your edit:
I never said I don't want drunks dealt with, I just think that other methods should be employed prior to inflicting pain.

[jutes]

Originally posted by Modelexis


Re: your edit:
I never said I don't want drunks dealt with, I just think that other methods should be employed prior to inflicting pain.

Maybe in your own little world separated from reality. Here on planet earth most drunks need an ass kicking to get them under control. If anything I'd like to see law enforcement get more authority to use things like batons and tasers on aggressive civilians. Canada is too soft compared to other western nations, we have too many hipsters who think they deserve kindness when acting like children. A baton to the knee will sort them out.

[Seth1968]

Canada is too soft compared to other western nations, we have too many hipsters who think they deserve kindness when acting like children.

Watch what actually occurs in our government's question period. Let's pound on whatever physical object we have in front of us, then beat our chests and literally howl like gorillas.


A baton to the knee will sort them out.

Or you just have might have fucked up someone's life due to a permanent injury.

[jutes]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Or you just have might have fucked up someone's life due to a permanent injury.

Good, maybe next time they won't threaten the police.

[faiz999]

Originally posted by jutes


Good, maybe next time they won't threaten the police.

LOL!

[zipdoa]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
Last week, I dealt with a guy that said he was HIV positive, and I have to take that seriously. He wouldn't listen to my partner when he told him not to look at him while he was being searched, because my partner didn't want to get spit on. .

Not sure if your partner knows this or not, but he won't get HIV from being spit on. Hell, he could've made out with the guy and still been alright.

That being said, I still would've put the guy face down on the cement if it looked like he was gonna spit on me.

[blitz]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Or you just have might have fucked up someone's life due to a permanent injury.

Sort of like what could happen if you try to shake an unconscious person awake and it turns out they have a spinal fracture?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by blitz


Sort of like what could happen if you try to shake an unconscious person awake and it turns out they have a spinal fracture?

Possibly.

I was right behind a roll-over when I was teenager, so long story short....I was thinking , "Do I take the driver out of their their seat belt, pull them out of the car, and wait for paramedics? The car was on fire for fucks sake.

So am I going to being sued, or do I pull her out? I pulled her out, left her on the side of the road and left the scene.

This was in a rural area outside of Ontario a long time ago, so when I got to a first payphone, I called the cops and got the hell out of there too.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Toma


I do believe on the DSM IV, that means you are well on your way to being a Psychopath.

Cognrats. But that has been apparant much longer than just today.

If being a psychopath is the rejection of feeling sorry for the consequences that have occurred to others due to their actions, then certify me! :angel:

[962 kid]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Possibly.

I was right behind a roll-over when I was teenager, so long story short....I was thinking , "Do I take the driver out of their their seat belt, pull them out of the car, and wait for paramedics? The car was on fire for fucks sake.

So am I going to being sued, or do I pull her out? I pulled her out, left her on the side of the road and left the scene.

This was in a rural area outside of Ontario a long time ago, so when I got to a first payphone, I called the cops and got the hell out of there too.

Lol you can't be serious

[FraserB]

I'm sure TurboMedic or one of the EMTs/POs on here can clarify with the exact rules, but this is MY interpretation from my First Aid training.

If you start care, you can't stop until your relieved by someone who is considered to be as or more competent than yourself. You can also direct another person, but you can't leave. There is also no duty to stop and render assistance, in Alberta it is all voluntary.

The only way a Good Samaritan can be held responsible for death, further injury or exacerbating existing injuries is if it is shown that they acted with gross negligence. So if I pulled someone from a burning car and it was shown that this cause serious spinal damage, I would most likely be fine. If there was no immediate risk to them where they were, I would probably be in trouble for making the case worse. Same wold apply to breaking ribs during CPR type situations.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by 962 kid


Lol you can't be serious

he didn't want to be forcibly vaccinated.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by 962 kid


Lol you can't be serious

I am.

This occurred when I was in my early twenties, and in a rural area just North of Oshawa, Ontario.

In my mind at the time, all I was thinking was, "I have to get her out, but recalled horror stories of people being sued for further injuries by someone else helping them out.

I'm 44 years old now, and would do such things differently in such a case. But at that young age ( and well known to cops) in my little town with a "souped"up 72 Torina, my credence didn't hold much water.

[120Comm]

Originally posted by FraserB
I'm sure TurboMedic or one of the EMTs/POs on here can clarify with the exact rules, but this is MY interpretation from my First Aid training.

If you start care, you can't stop until your relieved by someone who is considered to be as or more competent than yourself. You can also direct another person, but you can't leave. There is also no duty to stop and render assistance, in Alberta it is all voluntary.

The only way a Good Samaritan can be held responsible for death, further injury or exacerbating existing injuries is if it is shown that they acted with gross negligence. So if I pulled someone from a burning car and it was shown that this cause serious spinal damage, I would most likely be fine. If there was no immediate risk to them where they were, I would probably be in trouble for making the case worse. Same wold apply to breaking ribs during CPR type situations.

This is pretty much true (I'm not going to go look up acts and regulations right now, sorry). The hypothetical example of the rescue of someone from a burning car - the "spinal damage" was already done by the crash, not by your moving them. The act of moving them was a reasonable thing to do faced with the alternative of having them perish. I'm fairly confident that is how they would view it.

For those who keep going on about how there should be other methods tried on the guy on the bus before painful stimuli, there were. One was the bus driver trying to wake him up. The other was the transit cops talking to him.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Seth1968

recalled horror stories of people being sued for further injuries by someone else helping them out.




Got some examples of this ever happening in Canada?

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by Modelexis


Couldn't something like smelling salt be used to wake people up without inflicting pain?

You are a treat aren't you. How about you just carry on doing whatever it is you do, and we don't tell you how to do your job. You act like nothing else has ever been tried.

As was said earlier, you need to either do a ride-a-long so you can view reality first hand, or just accept the fact that there are lots of standard procedures that we and LE do that make some people uncomfortable. Inflicting temporary pain by stimulating a nerve is NOT causing harm, and is NOT causing damage. If that was the case you can sue the doctor sticking needles in the base of your feet to illicit pain response as a diagnostic tool too. LOTS of stuff I do as a Paramedic inflicts pain. You are misunderstood about brutality though. If I kick someone to wake them up, thats excessive. Use of pressure points to rouse someone who is otherwise unrousable through normal means (loud voice, etc) is globally accepted practice.

[Modelexis]

I'm not telling anyone how to do anything, I just asked the question.
It wasn't sarcasm and it wasn't hostile, just a question.

As I said earlier, I requested a ride along and they laughed and told me it wouldn't be happening.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by GTS4tw



Got some examples of this ever happening in Canada?

Again, I was a kid.

Got some examples of violations of what I am now?

Let's start with "dying with dignity", and how our human rights our violated.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Again, I was a kid.

Got some examples of violations of what I am now?


Well then, I hope you've come a long way from being a cowardly piece of shit who left a woman unconscious and injured at the side of a rural road for fear of unknown legal ramifications.

[FraserB]

To be fair he probably do a lot to help her. Assuming he has no first aid training, what else I'd he going to do besides get her out of immediate danger and make sure help is coming?

I think it says a lot about how we've let the courts mess us up that we have people so scared of the legal ramifications that they feel they can't help someone in need. Or just the general attitude that “its not me so its not my issue”. Not saying that the latter was Seth.

[962 kid]

Sure he helped her - the maximum he could without being held accountable for his actions. His fear of getting in legal trouble exceeded his concern for the health a human being in great distress. If that isn't cowardice in it's purest form, I don't know what is.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Seth1968


I am.

This occurred when I was in my early twenties, and in a rural area just North of Oshawa, Ontario.

In my mind at the time, all I was thinking was, "I have to get her out, but recalled horror stories of people being sued for further injuries by someone else helping them out.

I'm 44 years old now, and would do such things differently in such a case. But at that young age ( and well known to cops) in my little town with a "souped"up 72 Torina, my credence didn't hold much water.

You have watched too much American TV as a kid. In Canada you are held immune by good samaritan laws.

Unless you carelessly tossed her into oncoming traffic, your attempts to help - even if caused further injury - could not hold you liable given the circumstances (car was on fire).

[Mibz]

EDIT: I realized an alternative as soon as I posted, nevermind :P

[spikerS]

next time, instead of inflicting pain, maybe they could try water boarding him to see if that will wake him up. Doesn't hurt right?

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
Just because they're passed out doesn't meant they're not harmless to anyone.


Which is definitely why he needs to be held down and have pain inflicted upon him for 10 seconds.

WHO YO DADDY!?!?!?!?!

[Rat Fink]

.

[Toma]

Wait? Did you guys actually suggest we should feel sorry for someone taking a job, that entails certain duties, then feel sorry for them for having to do THEIR JOB??

Really? :drool:

That's why it's a job. You know, things need doing as part of your job description lol.

If you don't like your job, or suck at it, what the fuck did you take the job for?

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by Toma
Wait? Did you guys actually suggest we should feel sorry for someone taking a job, that entails certain duties, then feel sorry for them for having to do THEIR JOB??

Really? :drool:

That's why it's a job. You know, things need doing as part of your job description lol.

If you don't like your job, or suck at it, what the fuck did you take the job for?

Wait? Did you actually suggest we should feel sorry for some drunk passed out on a bus, that involves certain levels of idiocy, then feel sorry for them for being in a situation that is solely due to their own stupidity?

Really?

That's why it's common sense. You know, that this is going to happen if you get intoxicated to retard levels in public.

If you don't like getting thrown out of the bus by officers, why the fuck did you drink so much then?

[Toma]

We don't live in North Korea, or some futuristic Judge Dredd universe. Our Peace Officers job is public safety, NOT punishment, and "Judge Jury, executioner".

Passing out in Public, being homeless, having a disability is not a criminal offence. Yet inflicting pain on them as "revenge" for having to do your JOB is fine?

[Mista Bob]

http://www.mistabob.com/photos/fantasy.jpg

[Toma]

You're the guys living in fantasy land, believing a SIMPLE situation like this is so horrendous, it could not/should not have been handled without causing any pain. lol

just to clarify though, if you believe:

could not, means you are just delusional/inexperienced imo,

should not, makes you a piece of shit in my books.

[syscal]

Originally posted by Toma
Wait? Did you guys actually suggest we should feel sorry for someone taking a job, that entails certain duties, then feel sorry for them for having to do THEIR JOB??

Really? :drool:

That's why it's a job. You know, things need doing as part of your job description lol.

If you don't like your job, or suck at it, what the fuck did you take the job for?

...um, their job description/training says to do these things to an unresponsive person. So...

[Toma]

Originally posted by syscal


...um, their job description/training says to do these things to an unresponsive person. So...

proof?

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


Which is definitely why he needs to be held down and have pain inflicted upon him for 10 seconds.

WHO YO DADDY!?!?!?!?!

10 seconds? Well shit he must have been right on the verge of giving up on life :rofl:

The last time I slammed my pinky toe into the baseboard it hurt longer than 10 seconds for fucks sakes.

With Toma we know we're getting trolled but is Robin a Toma alias? Or a new troll altogether?

Rational, logical people understand how reasonable the officers behaviour was. If that wasn't enough numerous people with actual fucking experience post that they feel the officers actions were reasonable and how they're trained to handle similar situations and furthermore also explain why those actions need to be taken. Yet somehow with all that you still have multiple posts by Toma commenting on the officers dick size :dunno: and Robin arguing that black is in fact white :dunno:

[Toma]

Gadfly. Not troll.

You fit the troll definition though.

[syscal]

Originally posted by Toma
proof?

Have you been reading the thread?

[clem24]

Originally posted by Toma


proof?

The fuck? There's what, like 6 pages of proof from people in the field that says this was in their training? Or do you just choose to ignore it like everything else that is counter to your beliefs?

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by clem24
Or do you just choose to ignore it like everything else that is counter to your beliefs?

Ding ,ding, ding we have a winner!

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Toma


proof?

Ummm wat? Read any police training manual, or take a first aid course even.... This is even more common with paramedics, and if you think this is bad, they forcibly inject you with drugs which eliminate your opiate high without your permission. You should see how pissed off those guys get.

Edit: I would be on your side if we were talking they broke this guys arm or something, but you should let someone do these techniques to you to even have a clue what you are talking about. This is a technique which can save their life, you should be loving it. You would prefer maybe that they don't check on the guy and let him potentially drown in his own vomit? By the way, since you (Robin) want to leap to the assumption that it was a "sternum rub" (doubtful) you should know that is much less "painful" than some alternatives.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


Which is definitely why he needs to be held down and have pain inflicted upon him for 10 seconds.

WHO YO DADDY!?!?!?!?!

Right, because that's definitely why they did it... :rolleyes:

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Toma
We don't live in North Korea, or some futuristic Judge Dredd universe. Our Peace Officers job is public safety, NOT punishment, and "Judge Jury, executioner".

Passing out in Public, being homeless, having a disability is not a criminal offence. Yet inflicting pain on them as "revenge" for having to do your JOB is fine?

Public safety and public interest. It's not in the public's interest to have drunks passed out on their busses. That's why Transit POs arrest such people for public intoxication (and more often than not, trespassing).

Passing out in public is not a criminal offense, you're right. However it is against the law (provincial statute). You'll go to jail for a max of 24 hours to sober up, or (my preferred option, since they feed you) to a shelter.

It's not illegal to be drunk in public, if you're not being a nuisance. When you start acting outside what would be deemed "normal" then you may be arrested for public intoxication. It's not a complicated subject.

Not sure what you mean by having a disability... that's never been brought up?

Pain wasn't inflicted on this person for "revenge". It was done to wake him up, get him off the bus (so that law-abiding people could get on with their day) and then deal with the situation from there.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD

Not sure what you mean by having a disability... that's never been brought up?


I think he was implying that alcoholics who pass out in public are not drunks, they have a disability. Implying they have no control over their actions and any force used against them would be akin to pushing over someone on crutches.

Not sure how it makes a difference, even if you think that the person has a disability. How does it change what the officers should do? Police are not trained to administer the 12 step program to someone on the floor of a bus.

[clem24]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


I think he was implying that alcoholics who pass out in public are not drunks, they have a disability. Implying they have no control over their actions and any force used against them would be akin to pushing over someone on crutches.

Not sure how it makes a difference, even if you think that the person has a disability. How does it change what the officers should do? Police are not trained to administer the 12 step program to someone on the floor of a bus.

He's also factoring in hindsight of 20/20. It's also possible this guy isn't just drunk but could also possibly be suffering from a medical condition and needs immediate attention, in which case, wasting another 10 minutes trying gentler methods to wake him up could possibly mean life and death.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by Toma


proof?

I'd be glad to provide you proof. I'm not posting things on a public forum though, so feel free to contact me. I can provide lots of proof of painful stimulus, acceptable techniques, etc.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


Which is definitely why he needs to be held down and have pain inflicted upon him for 10 seconds.

WHO YO DADDY!?!?!?!?!

Are you brain dead or just illiterate?

[faiz999]

how is this thread still going?

yes, if you pass out on a bus you may be forcibly removed.
no, the officers in question did not use excessive force.
yes, we should be vigilant of officers over stepping their boundaries.
no, the officers in this case did not over step their boundaries.

i understand some of the posters' concerns but i think in this specific case, its misguided. if you value your own time, you will understand that what the officers did was helping you extend your free time to be better spent than observing a drunk being coaxed to wake up.

[120Comm]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


I'd be glad to provide you proof. I'm not posting things on a public forum though, so feel free to contact me. I can provide lots of proof of painful stimulus, acceptable techniques, etc.

:D :clap:

[sr20s14zenki]

Originally posted by faiz999
how is this thread still going?

yes, if you pass out on a bus you may be forcibly removed.
no, the officers in question did not use excessive force.
yes, we should be vigilant of officers over stepping their boundaries.
no, the officers in this case did not over step their boundaries.

i understand some of the posters' concerns but i think in this specific case, its misguided. if you value your own time, you will understand that what the officers did was helping you extend your free time to be better spent than observing a drunk being coaxed to wake up.

Well put,

/thread

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by faiz999
how is this thread still going?


Toma being Toma :thumbsdow

It's getting to the point Beyond should just give him his own sub-forum. I've got him on ignore but so many people quote him he's still able to ruin a thread:banghead: shit never mind a thread it's getting to be the entire Society/Law/Current Events/Politics sub-forum Let him post his nonsense in his own section, not unlike "Ask Leo", I'm sure there would be lots of suggestions on what the title should be!

[Toma]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


I think he was implying that alcoholics who pass out in public are not drunks, they have a disability. Implying they have no control over their actions and any force used against them would be akin to pushing over someone on crutches.

Not sure how it makes a difference, even if you think that the person has a disability. How does it change what the officers should do? Police are not trained to administer the 12 step program to someone on the floor of a bus.

Wasn't implying anything.

The ONLY witness to this assault painted a different picture than the one rationalized/conjured/imagined by the rest of the posters in this thread.

We don't know anything about the man in question.

Only that the cops caused him scream worthy pain as a first response, while deliberately shielding their actions from public view.

Like I said, seen this before, in person, and it's despicable imo.

Of course, I could be wrong, and MAYBE their actions were justified, but NOT from how it was described by the only witness.

[btimbit]

Originally posted by faiz999
how is this thread still going?

yes, if you pass out on a bus you may be forcibly removed.
no, the officers in question did not use excessive force.
yes, we should be vigilant of officers over stepping their boundaries.
no, the officers in this case did not over step their boundaries.

i understand some of the posters' concerns but i think in this specific case, its misguided. if you value your own time, you will understand that what the officers did was helping you extend your free time to be better spent than observing a drunk being coaxed to wake up.

This.

/thread

This dead horse has been beaten enough

[Toma]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


Ummm wat? Read any police training manual, or take a first aid course even.... This is even more common with paramedics,

I have taken the advanced First Aid, and am required to renew every 2 years.

I was also hired as a communications officer back in like 2000.

And, as I said, I have training in Crisis prevention, and non violent intervention. It's you, and people like you talking out you arses.

PS.... these guys weren't paramedics

[FraserB]

Toma is correct on one thing, this is not covered in Emergency/Standard/Wilderness/Remote First Aid training. It WOULD be part of EMT level training and police training.

And addiction is not a disability, it's simply a byproduct of having zero self-control and restraint. Very little sympathy for addicts since they are all where they are due to themselves and no one else.

[Toma]

Seriously dude... out of 9 posts after my initial post, you mentioned me 7 times.

Not bad for a guy who has me on "ignore".

You are scaring me a little. Am I gonna ahve to get a restraining order against you??

:poosie:
:poosie:


Originally posted by rx7_turbo2

Toma's


Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Although I quoted you, that part wasn't directed at you. :poosie:




Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


With Toma we know we're getting trolled but is Robin a Toma alias? Or a new troll altogether?
Toma commenting on the officers dick size :dunno: and Robin arguing that black is in fact white :dunno:


Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Toma being Toma :thumbsdow



:poosie:

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Toma


I have taken the advanced First Aid, and am required to renew every 2 years.

I was also hired as a communications officer back in like 2000.

And, as I said, I have training in Crisis prevention, and non violent intervention. It's you, and people like you talking out you arses.

PS.... these guys weren't paramedics

That's probably true, both my parents being first aid instructors and dad being a full time paramedic for over 30 years probably taught me nothing. Guess I should stop talking out my ass. If you read my post, i never said these guys were paramedics, I said "this is even more common with paramedics" (should have read "for paramedics", bad english)....

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by FraserB
Toma is correct on one thing, this is not covered in Emergency/Standard/Wilderness/Remote First Aid training. It WOULD be part of EMT level training and police training.


Depends where you take your training.

[Toma]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


Depends where you take your training.

Well, we are in Alberta, where this incident occurred....

sooo....

uhm....

No.

[Toma]

Originally posted by FraserB


And addiction is not a disability, it's simply a byproduct of having zero self-control and restraint. Very little sympathy for addicts since they are all where they are due to themselves and no one else.

hahahha, not true either.

Wow, google has failed most of you guys today.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Toma


Well, we are in Alberta, where this incident occurred....

sooo....

uhm....

No.

There are many options for first aid training.


Why do i bother. Your google fails you every day.

[Toma]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


There are many options for first aid training.


Why do i bother. Your google fails you every day.

Just admit you are wrong, and move on. lol

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Toma


Just admit you are wrong, and move on. lol

Sucks arguing with people when they know what they are talking about eh? You called me out on the wrong subject dumbass.

[Toma]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


Sucks arguing with people when they know what they are talking about eh? You called me out on the wrong subject dumbass.

Out of like the 9 or 10 first aid classes typically offered in Alberta, I have taken as I recall 6, and repeatedly.

Please name me the one that teaches the technique, and with whom.

Go talk to mommy and daddy, and then get back to us.

[Toma]

tic toc

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Toma


Out of like the 9 or 10 first aid classes typically offered in Alberta, I have taken as I recall 6, and repeatedly.

Please name me the one that teaches the technique, and with whom.

Go talk to mommy and daddy, and then get back to us.

There are way more than 10 classes offered in Alberta, and i don't need to talk to anyone about this, it is super basic knowledge to anyone in the industry. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't argue with the people on here who clearly know what they are talking about. You are quite clearly talking out your ass, unless the 6 you have taken are related to babysitting and cpr.

When you have a subject you have knowledge in, come back. I can tell you are , as you call it, a "big fan" of mine. Don't worry, i post stupid shit that i know nothing about all the time, I wont make you look like a fool in those conversations.

[FraserB]

Which is it offered in then?

[Toma]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


There are way more than 10 classes offered in Alberta, and i don't need to talk to anyone about this, it is super basic knowledge to anyone in the industry. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't argue with the people on here who clearly know what they are talking about. You are quite clearly talking out your ass, unless the 6 you have taken are related to babysitting and cpr.

When you have a subject you have knowledge in, come back. I can tell you are , as you call it, a "big fan" of mine. Don't worry, i post stupid shit that i know nothing about all the time, I wont make you look like a fool in those conversations.

blah blah blah....

Name the ones where it's taught.

tic toc

[Toma]

Originally posted by FraserB
Which is it offered in then?


Originally posted by GTS4tw


Ummm wat? Read any police training manual, or take a first aid course even.... This is even more common with paramedics,

Apparently "a first aid course".

I've repeatedly taken standard, emergency, child, child emergency, aed, cpr etc.... from a few different places, including through work, St. Johns, pretty sure Red Cross etc... over the past ~15 years....

Never seen it.

I suspect lying to cover his ass.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by FraserB



And addiction is not a disability, it's simply a byproduct of having zero self-control and restraint. Very little sympathy for addicts since they are all where they are due to themselves and no one else.



Originally posted by Toma


hahahha, not true either.

Wow, google has failed most of you guys today.

The supreme court has ruled they are disabilities in terms of collecting benefits. Whether or not one agrees with that it is the law. But, just because it is "officially" a disability it does not negate or reduce the duty to public safety. You can still taser a schizophrenic with a knife and you can still forcibly remove a drunk from a bus. Or administer a pain response to make sure they are not dying. Or whatever the OP couldn't clearly see.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Toma
Apparently "a first aid course".

I've repeatedly taken standard, emergency, child, child emergency, aed, cpr etc.... from a few different places, including through work, St. Johns, pretty sure Red Cross etc... over the past ~15 years....

Never seen it.

I suspect lying to cover his ass.
Gonna have to side with Toma on this one - I've taken numerous first aid courses over the past three decades and not one of them has taught anything to do with which GTS4tw is referring to.

[Toma]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


The supreme court has ruled they are disabilities in terms of collecting benefits. Whether or not one agrees with that it is the law. But, just because it is "officially" a disability it does not negate or reduce the duty to public safety. You can still taser a schizophrenic with a knife and you can still forcibly remove a drunk from a bus. Or administer a pain response to make sure they are not dying. Or whatever the OP couldn't clearly see.

I think that was only in Ontario.... but I might be wrong.

However, the second part is DEFINITELY in error.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by btimbit


This.

/thread

This dead horse has been beaten enough

:banghead:

[spikerS]

Originally posted by speedog

Gonna have to side with Toma on this one - I've taken numerous first aid courses over the past three decades and not one of them has taught anything to do with which GTS4tw is referring to.

well, for starters, it is not a first aid technique...

[speedog]

Originally posted by spikers


well, for starters, it is not a first aid technique...
So what of GTS4tw's claim then?

[dirtsniffer]

I for one think a mod should change the thread title from:

"Peace officer" brutality

to

Peace officer "brutality"

[spikerS]

Originally posted by speedog

So what of GTS4tw's claim then?

it is a first responder's technique. It is not in any first aid course, even advanced first aid that I have ever taken, but my best friend is an EMT here in YYC, and it is taught to help assess an unresponsive patient to decide next course of action.

[codetrap]

I think the closest thing I've come across as a pain response was when assessing a concussion. AVPU... where the P stands for Pinch/Pain. But they certainly didn't teach anything like a sternum rub...

[TurboMedic]

I said it above, Toma is being nothing but a troll. It is covered under AVPU as I said earlier, and like codetrap above me just reiterated. P is pain. Pain can be sternal rub (and if you ever get a proper sternal rub, it will leave a mark), trap pinch, TMJ pressure, nail bed pinch, etc. All acceptable and taught in class. I have 15 years of experience, its all I've ever done, and I can tell you it is taught (although likely glossed over) as "sir can you hear me *while pinching, sternum rubbing*". When you deal with more than first aid and basic CPR, you tend to be more vigorous with your stimulus because you aren't dealing with cardiac arrests, they can be more complex, patients (or persons passed out on C trains) can be CNS depressed by drugs, non beverage alcohols, complex medical conditions, etc and DO need to be provided SIGNIFICANT stimulus to wake. Yes it can appear excessive, but what is required to wake is required to wake.

[Toma]

Please show me in the Peace Officer policy and procedures manual.

I can't find it.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Toma
Please show me in the Peace Officer policy and procedures manual.

I can't find it.

C'mon man. Do you REALLY expect the manual to cover every scenario?

Any job ends up encompassing more than the "welcome aboard" pamphlet, and you continually grow and learn on the job with additional training.

Toma, everyone says you are not like this in real life, for once, prove them right.

[Toma]

Originally posted by spikers


C'mon man. Do you REALLY expect the manual to cover every scenario?

Any job ends up encompassing more than the "welcome aboard" pamphlet, and you continually grow and learn on the job with additional training.

Toma, everyone says you are not like this in real life, for once, prove them right.

Of course it would cover conduct and training.

I want to see it.

[takkyu]

This is all I can really find on the matter in the manual.



24.16 Multiple Emergency Service Roles for Peace Officers
A peace officer may assume the additional roles of firefighter, paramedic, EMT, or
Disaster Services Responder, where supported by the required training.
A municipality must submit a request to the DLE, in writing, showing proof of training
accepted by the municipality to engage in the additional role(s) and show how that
training is deemed suitable under applicable provincial rules/guidelines.
If accepted, peace officer appointments will be modified to reflect the additional job roles.


https://www.solgps.alberta.ca/programs_and_services/public_security/peace_officers/Publications/Public%20Security%20Peace%20Officer%20Program%20-%20Policy%20and%20Procedure%20Manual.pdf

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Toma
Please show me in the Peace Officer policy and procedures manual.

I can't find it.

This is what we use.

http://issa.ns.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/UOF31.jpg

An unresponsive, intoxicated person would be a passive resistor (ie deadweight) "technically" which is "soft" empty hand techniques. Ie: pressure points. Sternum rub falls under that.

Perhaps this transit officer is an ex-police officer with more/different training than we get in our course. Who knows?

I know when I'm dealing with unresponsive people my priorities are: my safety, their health, and the situation at hand. So I'd be sure to make sure he's alive, and if that takes more than a soft kick to the bottom of his boot, so be it.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


The supreme court has ruled they are disabilities in terms of collecting benefits.

If that is what he is referring to, then f*&k me. Even then, Toma sure can twist words if he wants. Apparently someone forced those people to take the drugs/drink the alcohol, they can't help themselves! :banghead:

[Toma]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


This is what we use.


Perhaps this transit officer is an ex-police officer with more/different training than we get in our course. Who knows?



Cool, perhaps he's also a complete idiot? Who knows?

First response even on your EMT thingy says communication, I don't see induce screaming pain as the first option.

And so, what about peace officers manual? No one have it?

[Toma]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


If that is what he is referring to, then f*&k me. Even then, Toma sure can twist words if he wants. Apparently someone forced those people to take the drugs/drink the alcohol, they can't help themselves! :banghead:

Addictive behavior is a symptom of some disabilities, and addiction hits different people very differently.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by TurboMedic
I said it above, Toma is being nothing but a troll. It is covered under AVPU as I said earlier, and like codetrap above me just reiterated. P is pain. Pain can be sternal rub (and if you ever get a proper sternal rub, it will leave a mark), trap pinch, TMJ pressure, nail bed pinch, etc. All acceptable and taught in class. I have 15 years of experience, its all I've ever done, and I can tell you it is taught (although likely glossed over) as "sir can you hear me *while pinching, sternum rubbing*". When you deal with more than first aid and basic CPR, you tend to be more vigorous with your stimulus because you aren't dealing with cardiac arrests, they can be more complex, patients (or persons passed out on C trains) can be CNS depressed by drugs, non beverage alcohols, complex medical conditions, etc and DO need to be provided SIGNIFICANT stimulus to wake. Yes it can appear excessive, but what is required to wake is required to wake.

I would consider TurboMedic the definitive source on this, considering it's what he does. I just referenced back to my course material.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Toma


Cool, perhaps he's also a complete idiot? Who knows?

First response even on your EMT thingy says communication, I don't see induce screaming pain as the first option.

And so, what about peace officers manual? No one have it? Who said pain was the first option they chose? the OP even states that the transit officer tried to talk to him first. I'm also pretty sure the bus drive most likely tried to talk to the passenger first too. You know, to determine if he should call the EMTs or the police.

I love how you automatically assume the worst in people and that they'll always choose the path of oppression. Such a negative outlook in life, must be hard to be you.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Toma


Addictive behavior is a symptom of some disabilities

Absolutely. But to excuse all addiction as a symptom of disabilities is ridiculous.

And that still does NOT preclude a majority of those cases where it is a symptom from exercising this thing called choice and not taking the stuff to begin with.

[takkyu]

Originally posted by codetrap
Who said pain was the first option they chose? the OP even states that the transit officer tried to talk to him first. I'm also pretty sure the bus drive most likely tried to talk to the passenger first too. You know, to determine if he should call the EMTs or the police.

I love how you automatically assume the worst in people and that they'll always choose the path of oppression. Such a negative outlook in life, must be hard to be you.

If he didn't assume the worst in people, he wouldn't be able to feel good about himself every day he wakes up. Nothing he does can be as bad as everything else around him, thus he is automatically the good guy and will be favored. Aka, he is delusional.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by Toma


Cool, perhaps he's also a complete idiot? Who knows?

First response even on your EMT thingy says communication, I don't see induce screaming pain as the first option.

And so, what about peace officers manual? No one have it?

You are some kind of special. I'm unsure why you don't get it......I mean it was stated earlier as well, had nobody attempted to wake him, and ensure he was awake, who's to say he was just drunk? If everyone just let him lay there, the potential is that he is critically ill? I've actually done calls (last summer actually) on a bus, where someone was "passed out", and around a corner rolled out of the seat before anyone noticed the individual was actually not breathing.....So, had someone, other than the passengers or bus driver who may have shouted "wake up" to him actually provided appropriate stimulus, the problem could have been identified earlier? Unfortunately he passed, in public, on a bus.....peaceful!

I think you're sensitive about this because homeless, addiction, and the treatment of those people is a polarizing issue (especially to those who don't deal with them, and recidivism they are known for), and you latch onto it just to be a troll. And that's fine, I'll sit here all day long and gladly tell you how wrong you are. My patient above was a regular joe, and the same techniques get practiced in everyones cozy little homes the same way, with out "Toma eyes" out to demonize people for doing a job most people never want to do. Please, feel free to reach out and touch someone like that next time.....Until you do, you can keep your opinions to yourself :)


For further reading, and I know you're smart enough to use google, I recommend you research something called the "Glasgow Coma Scale", an assessment tool we use on every patient, which has a painful response scale, also a simple search for "Acceptable painful stimulus" will bring up countless results, including training manuals for various services, medical boards, neurology discussions, and they will all address the methods I spoke of in earlier messages.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


You are some kind of special. I'm unsure why you don't get it......I mean it was stated earlier as well, had nobody attempted to wake him, and ensure he was awake, who's to say he was just drunk? If everyone just let him lay there, the potential is that he is critically ill? I've actually done calls (last summer actually) on a bus, where someone was "passed out", and around a corner rolled out of the seat before anyone noticed the individual was actually not breathing.....So, had someone, other than the passengers or bus driver who may have shouted "wake up" to him actually provided appropriate stimulus, the problem could have been identified earlier? Unfortunately he passed, in public, on a bus.....peaceful!

I think you're sensitive about this because homeless, addiction, and the treatment of those people is a polarizing issue (especially to those who don't deal with them, and recidivism they are known for), and you latch onto it just to be a troll. And that's fine, I'll sit here all day long and gladly tell you how wrong you are. My patient above was a regular joe, and the same techniques get practiced in everyones cozy little homes the same way, with out "Toma eyes" out to demonize people for doing a job most people never want to do. Please, feel free to reach out and touch someone like that next time.....Until you do, you can keep your opinions to yourself :)


For further reading, and I know you're smart enough to use google, I recommend you research something called the "Glasgow Coma Scale", an assessment tool we use on every patient, which has a painful response scale, also a simple search for "Acceptable painful stimulus" will bring up countless results, including training manuals for various services, medical boards, neurology discussions, and they will all address the methods I spoke of in earlier messages.

Your comments are reasonable, insightful and based on experience. Why are you bothering? He'll just wear you down with links and babble till you finally bow out and stop posting:banghead: save yourself the frustration :thumbsup:

[clem24]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Your comments are reasonable, insightful and based on experience. Why are you bothering? He'll just wear you down with links and babble till you finally bow out and stop posting:banghead: save yourself the frustration :thumbsup:

No he won't.. He'll just ignore TurboMedic's post and carry on.

[DEATH2000]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


There are way more than 10 classes offered in Alberta, and i don't need to talk to anyone about this, it is super basic knowledge to anyone in the industry.
I want to help clarify this. The Sternum Rub is NOT taught in First Aid. Not at all. You don't learn that until your an EMR. The only technique taught in First Aid is the "trap squeeze" which is pinching the top of their shoulder to determine if their conscious. While it is a pain stimuli, it's quite different then a sternum rub. TurboMedic is correct.

I know this as I re-certified my first aid last week and I was an EMR several years ago. My wife was a F/A instructor for the Heart and Stroke Foundation and she has never once taught a student the sternum rub.

[Toma]

That's cause I didn't ask for conjecture and blabber, and assumptions.

Asked for the actual procedures manual for a PEACE OFFICER. Not a Paramedic, not a Police Officer...

Just say "I dont have it". That's cool too. But don't pretend like you know what's in it then.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by DEATH2000

I want to help clarify this. The Sternum Rub is NOT taught in First Aid. Not at all. You don't learn that until your an EMR. The only technique taught in First Aid is the "trap squeeze" which is pinching the top of their shoulder to determine if their conscious. While it is a pain stimuli, it's quite different then a sternum rub. TurboMedic is correct.

I know this as I re-certified my first aid last week and I was an EMR several years ago. My wife was a F/A instructor for the Heart and Stroke Foundation and she has never once taught a student the sternum rub.

The discussion was pain stimuli in general and that is all I was talking about. Although there are other methods like scissors or a pen under the nail, which are taught at lower levels than something like a sternum rub.

[takkyu]

Originally posted by Toma
That's cause I didn't ask for conjecture and blabber, and assumptions.

Asked for the actual procedures manual for a PEACE OFFICER. Not a Paramedic, not a Police Officer...

Just say "I dont have it". That's cool too. But don't pretend like you know what's in it then.

Check the top of this page (Page 10) for my quote from the policy and procedures manual and a link to it for your own reference to make sure I am not doing anything beyond copy and paste from it.

[Nitro5]

Originally posted by Modelexis
I don't think we live in a police state relatively speaking, but I'm also aware of the need to be conscious of the fact that things can go that direction if people allow it to.

Canada is not immune to corruption and power abuse.
I don't think it's wise to rely solely on things like ASIRT to hold police responsible for their actions and curb abuse. It's been shown in the past that ASIRT is not immune to corruption and power abuse themselves.

Now I'm curious. What has happened to show corruption with ASIRT? I haven't been following the news lately, what's happened?

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Toma
That's cause I didn't ask for conjecture and blabber, and assumptions.

Asked for the actual procedures manual for a PEACE OFFICER. Not a Paramedic, not a Police Officer...

Just say "I dont have it". That's cool too. But don't pretend like you know what's in it then.

Okay. Since I'm a Peace Officer, what EXACTLY would you like to know the "procedure" for?

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Nitro5


Now I'm curious. What has happened to show corruption with ASIRT? I haven't been following the news lately, what's happened?

Listen to the audio in this link:
http://www.cbc.ca/player/AudioMobile/Edmonton%2BAM/ID/2295546107/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/no-charges-for-police-in-arrest-at-meat-shop-1.1144892

Cliff Notes:
Edmonton cops are called by a guy claiming a butcher threatened him with a meat hook in an alley behind his shop.

Police show up and assault the man

Video of the assault is sent to ASIRT to independently review
One year of investigation and ASIRT recommends that criminal charges be laid against the officers involved

Calgary crown proc has final say as to whether charges are actually applied or not, he chooses to drop the case and dismiss the findings of ASIRT and clears the officers of any charges.

Butcher in question has charges against him and they are later dropped due to the fact that if the video is shown in court it will end up having the officers charged with criminal assault.

Officers never enter a court room.
ASIRT falls prey to corruption.

[Nitro5]

So they investigate and recommend charges and that's corruption?