Why isn't ICF construction more common?

[ExtraSlow]

I'm not in the construction industry, but it always seemed to me that Insulated Concrete Form construction (ICF) should be catching on more than it has.
Benefits include better sound insulation from the outside, better thermal insulation and the possibility of better durability (debatable and not fully studied).

The big negative is the cost, it IS more expensive. Some studies say only about 10% of the construction cost, but many of those studies are from the USA where labour is cheaper.

I know we have a bunch of tradespeople and real-estate folks on the board, what is everyone's opinion? Is this a worthwhile upgrade if someone is building a new home? Would it add to the value of that home on the resale market? Is anyone doing ICF homes routinely in Calgary?

I added a poll, because polls are fun.

[sxtasy]

ICF is a superior construction method, but I think becomes even more cost prohibitive in Calgary due to our shitty weather (not many days/nights in this city above 4C). It seems that the cost to clad both exterior and interior walls also increase. And lets face it, most people would rather see granite counter tops and upgraded bathrooms than more solid/durable foundations and walls.

[benyl]

I tried to build my most recent home with ICF. I was flat out told "no way."

My guess is no one has experience.

[Maxt]

I priced my shop building in ICF construction and it came to 2.5 times the cost of an R-28 pole building. The life expectancy of the pole building is around 50 years, the ICF a hundred. Both are going to outlast me, and the difference in the heating bill would never be enough to recoup the added cost of the ICF.

[adidas]

People have short term thinking, also most don't do their homework when approaching a home builder. As mentioned before people care about the stuff that's on the surface and quite frankly they are 'shallow' when it comes to that. Everyone wants the bamboo flooring, granite countertops and expensive carved wood doors. I find it quite laughable when I pass by the homes in Watermark in Bearspaw, where the homes are in the range of $3-5M. You can see the above mentioned stuff but yet most homes are finished in 2-pane windows without low-e or argon gas, wood construction with batt insulation, and '25' yr asphalt shingles.

The architects and developers do NO client education, but the client is equally to blame, as a very few ppl come with the idea or goal that they potentially want a sustainable or thermal efficient house. We are not talking about homes below $1M as things that pay off are expensive and usually the joe-blow-cookie-cutter-home-builder will never be approached by your brother, sister, aunt, cousin that requires a home to reach certain efficiency goals. People don't care that you can save money on your heating bill by going with IFC wall, or that it could potentially save your life down the road by having prolonged fire rating and capabilities. Proper design of steel stud / rigid insulation walls has escaped everyone, it does nothing when your insulation is placed between steel studs placed every 16 / 24 inches, think of the thermal bridging. You are inviting the cold from the ext to penetrate through the interior by distribution of those studs. A better example would be....does a polar bear have fur on the outside or the inside? The rigid in this instance should be placed on the ext to prevent penetration to the interior by cold temperatures.

If you can at least do the basement walls in ICF you are already ahead of a lot of people, if you can complete the entire house in ICF, I give you big props, but don't forget that your ICF walls are only as good as your insulation, windows, wall design(if it's ICF below grade only). But I think once you start getting into those items you will be spending quite a bit of coin for a house that won't be more than 1500 sq. ft. and your neighbour will be lounging in 3000 sq. ft. house that will clown on yours in terms of appearance and here we are back to step one. If you care about what others think that house will cost an arm and a leg in energy spent but you will 'look good' to everyone else.

[EK69]

ive done icf work and would prefer to use it in my own house if i was able to financially
it is more expensive, but also makes for a helluva stable house :nut:
if you do the basement plus upper levels its basically concrete plus rebar and styrofoam on both sides from the footing up to the roof

anyone ive talked to says the temperature variance is not as high as a wood frame house and apparently the heating savings actually are noticeable? :dunno:

[jdmakkord]

Our entire home from below grade to rafters is built using ICF forms. Granted we were supplied the blocks at cost, the amount we spent on concrete and rebar was huge. Going this route added approx 120k to our final build cost, back when there were next to no contractors doing residential ICF work.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by benyl
I tried to build my most recent home with ICF. I was flat out told "no way."

My guess is no one has experience.

Ding. We finished my parents ICF acreage (basement to roof) and shop (40x50 with 16' cielings) last year.

No word of a lie, my father and I literally did the whole house ourselves. If we had had anywhere near the amount of people involved in pouring a regular basement + framing the exterior of the house, it would have been done extremely quick.

Basically, few people have experience in it, and as mentioned in the other post about shallow people, the only ones who recognize its value/cost and benefit are people that will pay out the ass for it.

Hell, we were going to do a concrete floor as well (cost was about the same) but my mom didn't like how hard concrete floors are. Would have been quiet as hell!

[revelations]

5LrlSR-Qm8o

[you&me]

It's not quite the same, but a business acquaintance is in the process of rolling out a pre-fab'd foundation company. They've got several builders signed on and will (initially) work with pre-set plans. So, the builder has plan A, B, C, etc, with or without walkout and they ship the pre-constructed concrete panels to to site, drop them in and voila, a foundation.

Sounds like a neat idea and they're looking to expand into exterior walls eventually also...

[ExtraSlow]

I have heard of pre-fab concrete above grade. I think it's done a little bit in europe. With the foudnation walls, i would wonder how they are dealing with the joins between the slabs. Those would be natural leak points. Probably nothing exotic required, just some care and attention.

Pre-fab concrete could also help dealing with the problem of construction during winter. if the panels were poured in a shop with a controlled climate, you could have a much better set, and then set them in pace at whatever temp without worry.

[adidas]

^ Simple solution, sealent.

[CapnCrunch]

Short answer; it costs more and is much more difficult to install properly.

Ie, Google "ICF leaks".

[Lex350]

If I build a house again I will use it....but I have contacts in concrete so the cost wouldn't be as high. There are a few builders out there using it from time to time but as stated nobody wants to pay for the upgrade.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
Short answer; it costs more and is much more difficult to install properly.

Ie, Google "ICF leaks".

:werd:

[kenny]

Bump!

Thought of this thread when I read about this guy building his home out in Springbank. 11 years and counting. Pretty solid house he's building with ICF, but man over a decade and still going. Hope he lives long enough to enjoy it!

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/the-slow-build-neighbours-irked-as-man-erects-his-masterpiece-for-11-years-and-counting

[Tik-Tok]

Good for him! I would definitely be proud to build my own home in my spare time, fuck his neighbors.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Cos]

.

[Xtrema]

I remember a time when people are lifers in their houses where ICF makes sense.

now it take very few people actually cares because it will always be the next guy's problem.

[kenny]

I laughed a bit when some of the neighbors mentioned that their houses were built so quickly and that there is no reason this guy's house should take so long. Meanwhile those mcmansions are built just barely at ABC specs while this guy's house will outlast them all.

With that said, there is no reason buddy can't finish up some of the exterior and remove the fence while he takes his time on the interior. No reason to annoy the neighbors even more even though he's technically not doing anything wrong.

[RawB8figure]

I would consider Bone Structure building system over IFC.
Its steel, costs approx. 35% more in building materials than timber.
Requires trained installer and more upfront designing as the system is shipped and screwed together, no cutting/welding.

http://bonestructure.ca/en/

[C_Dave45]

11 years...ridiculous. I don't care how meticulous he is, his house will be no better built than any other "luxury home" out there. He won't even finish that thing before he either gives up or drops dead. The money he's wasted on carrying costs, he couldve had it finished properly by a skilled builder.
I'd be pissed if I was his neighbor too. I can just imagine working for him. "No that slightly grey stone should be replaced with this slightly greyER stone..AFTER it's been already set". There's a name for that condition and it's called OCD

[oz388]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I'm not in the construction industry, but it always seemed to me that Insulated Concrete Form construction (ICF) should be catching on more than it has.
Benefits include better sound insulation from the outside, better thermal insulation and the possibility of better durability (debatable and not fully studied).



For construction industry cost is on top of everything. Concrete itself is dirt cheap, however the man hour required for concrete works is much higher compare to lumber and structural steel construction. Therefore in north american using concrete is considered extra "luxury" even oil/gas industry can not afford concrete everywhere these days. But if you go to China you will see all the buildings are made of concrete from bottom to top because labor cost is neglectable to the builders there.

[Darell_n]

If you look at European countries like Germany and Switzerland everything is also floor to ceiling concrete. And this is way before cheap EU labour. Canada is a disposable society, that's the problem. We haven't figured out that building houses from sticks and paper won't pan out in the long run.

[englishbob]

Amvic has just taken over the old servacold building in Ogden I think.
They are the forms I used when I built my place.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Darell_n
If you look at European countries like Germany and Switzerland everything is also floor to ceiling concrete. And this is way before cheap EU labour. Alberta is a disposable society, that's the problem. We haven't figured out that building houses from sticks and paper won't pan out in the long run.

Fixed that for you, because there's a whole lot of pretty solid old brick and/or concrete building/houses out east.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by oz388
Concrete itself is dirt cheap

I'm just curious what is considered cheap for concrete?

Although concrete construction is definitely a more solid/stable form of construction, it also has some limitations in terms of how workable it is. Once the concrete is set, there is no chance to move/add a window or toilet drain etc.

When comparing construction methods here to other places around the world, you also have to consider climate. Canada has a very short "construction" season. To do concrete work during cold weather seasons though not impossible, but is also not feasible in terms of cost/time benefit. Concrete cures best and quickest when it has heat. The colder it is the longer, it takes to properly cure, which results in longer construction schedules. From a contractors perspective, you lose money in overhead costs for everyday your project sits idle. You can speed up the process, but that is where the costs come into play. You can tarp the project and use gas heaters and add tons of accelerator/additives but those just add to the cost.


Originally posted by C_Dave45
11 years...ridiculous. The money he's wasted on carrying costs, he couldve had it finished properly by a skilled builder.


I thought about that as well. Renewing his building permit for 11 years? Property taxes? Utilities? Insurance? I'm assuming he has to have cash. I can't imagine taking out a loan or line of credit to pay for this. Talk about a waste of money. Some people are just stubborn and stupid and too proud to admit it.

[Darell_n]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


Fixed that for you, because there's a whole lot of pretty solid old brick and/or concrete building/houses out east.

No, I mean practically all of them are concrete. I think it may even be law, I'll have to ask my Swiss friend but she may not know that one. (residential)

[C_Dave45]

So just a pictorial re-cap:

This was over 3 years into his project: (1 to 1 1/2 years, tops, for a house like this)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/Screen%20Shot%2003-24-15%20at%2008.16%20PM_zpsozyhfqhu.png





And this is how the community looked at the time:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/Screen%20Shot%2003-24-15%20at%2008.15%20PM_zpshzvkac79.png



This is how the community has looked for the past 3 years

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/Screen%20Shot%2003-24-15%20at%2008.17%20PM_zpsvcfmi3te.png


And this is how his project still looks:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/Screen%20Shot%2003-24-15%20at%2008.18%20PM_zpsqn4vy0mh.png


And the exterior is the QUICKEST part of the project!!! Now he's getting to the real intricate stuff. you know...the parts that take the longest:

https://postmediacalgaryherald2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/springbank5.jpg

https://postmediacalgaryherald2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/springbank4.jpg

[oz388]

Originally posted by frozenrice


I'm just curious what is considered cheap for concrete?



"Concrete is made up of three basic components: water, aggregate (rock, sand, or gravel) and Portland cement..."

so which one of these 3 elements aren't cheap compare to other raw materials for construction?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by oz388


"Concrete is made up of three basic components: water, aggregate (rock, sand, or gravel) and Portland cement..."

so which one of these 3 elements aren't cheap compare to other raw materials for construction?
And yet strangely, concrete goes for well over $100 per cubic metre. Do you know how many metres would be required to build an entire house out of concrete? Now add the labour costs. (At roughly $80-120 per man hour) Just for placing. Plus all the other trades that have to change their entire way of doing their job. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, drywall, stud work, etc, etc, etc. It's not feasible in this part of the world. No one would pay for a house like that.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by oz388


"Concrete is made up of three basic components: water, aggregate (rock, sand, or gravel) and Portland cement..."

so which one of these 3 elements aren't cheap compare to other raw materials for construction?



Originally posted by C_Dave45

And yet strangely, concrete goes for well over $100 per cubic metre. Do you know how many metres would be required to build an entire house out of concrete? Now add the labour costs. (At roughly $80-120 per man hour) Just for placing. Plus all the other trades that have to change their entire way of doing their job. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, drywall, stud work, etc, etc, etc. It's not feasible in this part of the world. No one would pay for a house like that.

Those materials may be dirt cheap in raw, but what about digging that stuff up, processing it (sifting for different sizes of gravel), transporting them to one location to mix it into concrete? It's not like there is a quarry here in town where everything is perfectly and readily divided for use. Also , Portland Cement isn't exactly a basic material. It's limestone that essentially heated and crushed into powder and mixed with other chemicals (ie flyash) to make it into cement powder.

Dave, FYI a 32MPA, CSA ready mix concrete goes for well over $200/m3 delivered. Plus, any accelerants, enviro fees, fuel surcharges etc. A large home (2500sqft) footprint will cost around $15-20,000 just for the concrete alone for the footings and walls, never mind the flatwork like the basement slab, garage slab and driveway.

[oz388]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

And yet strangely, concrete goes for well over $100 per cubic metre. Do you know how many metres would be required to build an entire house out of concrete? Now add the labour costs. (At roughly $80-120 per man hour) Just for placing. Plus all the other trades that have to change their entire way of doing their job. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, drywall, stud work, etc, etc, etc. It's not feasible in this part of the world. No one would pay for a house like that.

In my early post i said concrete is extremely expensive method of building things in north american not because of the material cost but due to the labor. Your $100 per cubic meter is probably local quotes for small jobs, already mixed and delivered by truck, so I assume some labor cost is already priced in. In general cement should cost about $50-$60 USD per metric ton and is good for over 3 cubic meter of finished concrete; you can figure out the cost of water and aggregate by yourself.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by frozenrice


Dave, FYI a 32MPA, CSA ready mix concrete goes for well over $200/m3 delivered. Plus, any accelerants, enviro fees, fuel surcharges etc. A large home (2500sqft) footprint will cost around $15-20,000 just for the concrete alone for the footings and walls, never mind the flatwork like the basement slab, garage slab and driveway.

Cool. Thanks for that info.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by oz388


In my early post i said concrete is extremely expensive method of building things in north american not because of the material cost but due to the labor. Your $100 per cubic meter is probably local quotes for small jobs, already mixed and delivered by truck, so I assume some labor cost is already priced in. In general cement should cost about $50-$60 USD per metric ton and is good for over 3 cubic meter of finished concrete; you can figure out the cost of water and aggregate by yourself.

Typically when you see prices by the meter for concrete it is for product only (delivered). The labour to place the concrete is usually on top of that. The $200/m3 is the general price for residential ready mix. I'm not sure what it would be for commercial/civil jobs but I'd assume it would be slightly less depending on total volume of concrete needed.

[TomcoPDR]

Bump!

Thought of this thread when I read about this guy building his home out in Springbank. 11 years and counting. Pretty solid house he's building with ICF, but man over a decade and still going. Hope he lives long enough to enjoy it!

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/the-slow-build-neighbours-irked-as-man-erects-his-masterpiece-for-11-years-and-counting

Good to see he’s only got railings on the porch to do

109800

[JRSC00LUDE]

Those exterior finishes are completely out of date.

[TomcoPDR]

Those exterior finishes are completely out of date.

Will he update them, brick by brick

[ExtraSlow]

That dude is not really a good example of how an ICF home would normally be built. He's closer to what eblend is doing, hand-built, or self-built home with a lot of unique features.

Cool bump though. I still think ICF is a really smart construction technology, very well suited to harsh climates.

[Darell_n]

I have an uncle that built an ICF house into the side of a hill and uses a low pressure wood pellet boiler to heat the basement slab. The house could almost stay warm most of the winter with just a couple of candles lit upstairs. I helped put in the foundation with him and would certainly go the same route if I built in a rural area.

[TomcoPDR]

That dude is not really a good example of how an ICF home would normally be built. He's closer to what eblend is doing, hand-built, or self-built home with a lot of unique features.

Cool bump though. I still think ICF is a really smart construction technology, very well suited to harsh climates.

Is cost for ICF still 2-3x than normal build (from ur 2014 post). I don’t know much ICF for industrial builds tho… (usually tilt up or precast)… that’s what I was search for, for a future build. But of course nothing beats (cheapest) for steel structure for industrial

[Yolobimmer]

I feel ICF is a waste oi 6" of concrete. Concrete is a poor insulator, but a good thermal mass, but on a ICF house, you essentially have the concrete in the middle, negating this benefit with only 2.75" of foam in and out. If you lived somewhere with tornado's and hurricanes, sure, go for it. It will be the only house standing afterwards lol.

I think in terms of efficiency, SIPS is the way to go, there are many variations around, but in terms of heating and cooling, you get more insulation. Some builders are doing sips panels, then a more traditional timber frame, you can get R38 from a 8.25" XPS SIPS panel and my parents went with 10.25 with EPS foam (R35), and 12.25" EPS panels for the roof (R42).

You do need dehumidifier for both, along with a good HRV.

[jutes]

I have an uncle that built an ICF house into the side of a hill and uses a low pressure wood pellet boiler to heat the basement slab. The house could almost stay warm most of the winter with just a couple of candles lit upstairs. I helped put in the foundation with him and would certainly go the same route if I built in a rural area.

I had a 2012ish bungalow build with ICF in Alberta and I can attest to this. I set the basement (8ft ceiling) slab heat to 20 deg and the furnace rarely kicked in for the first floor. Since I was the second owner I can't attest to initial building costs.

[schurchill39]

I've got a friend who runs a structural engineering firm in Regina that does work all over Canada and they big big proponents of ICF construction when financially feasible to do so. it seems like every post on the firm's social media is either some crazy unique feature or an ICF build. I don't know much about them but I know she raves about them

[bjstare]

Is cost for ICF still 2-3x than normal build (from ur 2014 post). I don’t know much ICF for industrial builds tho… (usually tilt up or precast)… that’s what I was search for, for a future build. But of course nothing beats (cheapest) for steel structure for industrial

As far as I know concrete is still more expensive than wood, so yes. Keep in mind the additional costs for using a pumper truck for all of it; a couple of Neanderthals on wheelbarrows doesn't work for ICF pours.

[ExtraSlow]

Once we start paying carbon tax on everything, and we switch to carbicrete, should be cheaper?

[Yolobimmer]

Once we start paying carbon tax on everything, and we switch to carbicrete, should be cheaper?

Or foamcrete. Literally a giant foam machine aerating a cement mortar mix. Not as strong, but much better insulating values.

There are people making "foam concrete". It's interesting stuff. Basically a giant bubble machine foaming a cement or mortar mix. Some are fiber reinforcing it with chopped strands of various fibers. Yes, fiberglass, but also stuff like Hemp. It is not as strong as concrete, but now acts as an insulator and you use much less material.

[Toilet_X]

As far as I know concrete is still more expensive than wood, so yes. Keep in mind the additional costs for using a pumper truck for all of it; a couple of Neanderthals on wheelbarrows doesn't work for ICF pours.

I worked at lumino down by chinook mall. We used a pump truck for our icf pours, up until like the 7'th or 8'th floors. After that it was all bucket and crane. And let me tell ya some of the blow outs we had were wicked. Im afan of icfin the sense that its super easy to work with but uh... other than that hard no.

[bjstare]

I worked at lumino down by chinook mall. We used a pump truck for our icf pours, up until like the 7'th or 8'th floors. After that it was all bucket and crane. And let me tell ya some of the blow outs we had were wicked. Im afan of icfin the sense that its super easy to work with but uh... other than that hard no.

If you had blow outs, it wasn’t done right. It takes a shitload of work to brace it properly, even for small residential pours (e.g., an addition to a house), and that’s a great place to cut corners… which is something pretty popular with lots of builders.

[benyl]

As far as I know concrete is still more expensive than wood, so yes. Keep in mind the additional costs for using a pumper truck for all of it; a couple of Neanderthals on wheelbarrows doesn't work for ICF pours.

I dunno. We got a 25X25 raised (3ft) deck poured for less than what it would have cost to build a wooden one.

Hell 85ft of fence was $14K with 4x4 posts. Told them to fuck off. 6x6 posts was another $2K. Told them to fuck off again.

[ThePenIsMightier]

^That's some DadFucking prices right there!

[Tik-Tok]

Hell 85ft of fence was $14K with 4x4 posts.

Holy shit. I should start a fence building company.

[bjstare]

I dunno. We got a 25X25 raised (3ft) deck poured for less than what it would have cost to build a wooden one.

Hell 85ft of fence was $14K with 4x4 posts. Told them to fuck off. 6x6 posts was another $2K. Told them to fuck off again.

That's pretty outrageous. TIL $wood >= $concrete. Either that, or your fence/deck builder is trying to raw dog you.

[ZenOps]

MiFwJzTDkHs

Curious what beyond thinks of this idea. Maybe bundled with some solar panels direct attached to some heating elements (no battery) but of course with fan running on battery. For ultra-remote locations, instead of or supplementary propane.