Ottawa baby girl loses most of her nose in pit bull attack

[rob the knob]

Girl, 1, will have breathing problems for life because most her nose is gone, paramedics say
CBC News Posted: Apr 27, 2014 11:08 AM ET Last Updated: Apr 27, 2014 4:07 PM ET


Paramedics say a one-year-old Ottawa girl who was attacked by a pit bull Sunday morning will have breathing problems for the rest of her life because the dog bit off most of her nose.

Baby bitten by pit bull inside this Ottawa home
A one-year-old girl was bitten badly by a pit bull inside this west Ottawa house. (CBC)

Emergency crews responded to the 90 block of Draffin Court at about 9:10 a.m. ET Sunday, where they found the baby girl with “multiple severe lacerations” to her face.

Paramedics took the girl to hospital in serious but stable condition. The injuries were not considered life-threatening, and she was in surgery as of early Sunday afternoon.

Paramedics said the baby lost most of her nose due to the dog bite and her breathing will be affected for the rest of her life.

Ottawa police, who are investigating, took the pit bull into their custody. The City of Ottawa's bylaw department is also investigating.

Police said the child was bitten on the nose while the family was playing with a dog inside their home. Neighbours say the dog, named Boss, had bitten a child before.

The neighbour said the family, who has two other dogs, had taken the pit bull from a friend who was unable to train it. The dog was undergoing rehabilitation.

The parents of the child could face a charge of up to $10,000, and possibly six months in jail, if they knew the dog had a history of attacks.

Pit bull ban in effect since 2005

In Ontario, it’s illegal to own, import or breed a pit bull, which is one of several breeds including the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, or any mix thereof.

People who owned pit bulls before the ban was put in place in August 2005 were allowed to keep their animals, but owners are ordered to ensure the dogs are spayed or neutered.

The dogs also have to be muzzled and leashed in public.

The law also gives judges the right to put down the animals if they’ve been involved in an attack.

[Sentry]

Classic case of an animal acting like an animal around idiot owners.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Looking forward to the ensuing parade of pitbull putzs....

[Kloubek]

If they knew the dog had a history of being unable to be trained, they really should have been more careful with the child. Very unfortunate situation. Now the girl suffers a lot of pain and reconstructive surgery, and the dog's live will be ended.

I'm of the mindset that any dog can be dangerous, but that there is nothing in ANY breed that makes them inherently likely to turn on a human. But if one is to own a dog as powerful as a pitbull, they also need to be aware that if the dog is not submissive to it's owners that a bite has the potential of occurring. And, well, a Pitbull bite isn't exactly likely to be a minor thing...

[max_boost]

Sucks. Lose Lose.

[01RedDX]

.

[JAYMEZ]

Poor supervision around any powerful dog . Shit can happen . Fail at parenting , and at dog ownership .The dog should of been giving a real home and a proper owner .

Idiots will be idiots

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Looking forward to the ensuing parade of pitbull putzs....


Great contribution , please tell us more .

I own 2 pit bulls . And the problem is ? :thumbsup:

[Seth1968]

What compels some people to enclose another life form?

Seriously, why do you have a pet?

[ArjayAquino]

Sad to hear.

Me and my gf recently adopted a pitbull (used to be a stray) and we just finished Clever Canines basic training so we are prepared to train the dog properly. Some people think they can get a way with lazily training these dogs.

[Supa Dexta]

Even a well trained dog who's never shown aggression can have a bad day. People forget this and think they can let their small children jump all over, and tug on and generally fuck with something that still has killer instinct within itself. 'oh he/she's great with kids'...yeah until it maims or kills that one time.

[ArjayAquino]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Even a well trained dog who's never shown aggression can have a bad day. People forget this and think they can let their small children jump all over, and tug on and generally fuck with something that still has killer instinct within itself. 'oh he/she's great with kids'...yeah until it maims or kills that one time.

true, specially since kids do weird things to dogs. A dog might get surprised, freak out and bite.

[01RedDX]

.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by Seth1968
What compels some people to enclose another life form?

Seriously, why do you have a pet?
Mutually beneficial companionship.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ
Great contribution , please tell us more .

I own 2 pit bulls . And the problem is ? :thumbsup:

Clearly you've decided what side of the argument I was referring to. Well done Miss Cleo! :thumbsup:

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Seth1968
What compels some people to enclose another life form?

Seriously, why do you have a pet?

As a rescue, there could be something said about simply helping the animal to lead a better life than it would have elsewhere. Or, better yet - to keep it from being euthanized.

For those who purchase from a breeder, the same cannot be said and I suppose it could be viewed as a selfish thing.

But with that said, we bought our dog from a breeder and I believe he is very happy with his life - enclosed or not. And her certainly does bring an intangible depth to our lives as well. Not to mention he's just fun to have around, my son loves interacting with him, and he provides an element of protection for my family as well.

By your own thought process then - do you agree people should not have children?

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by Kloubek
By your own thought process then - do you agree people should not have children?
I would agree with you entirely on that one. Two of my co workers are my age, with kids, and I wouldn't wish their absolute hellish life on my worst enemy. Not to mention the intense financial strain and everything else that comes with kids. To this day? if there is anything Im supremely grateful for? its to not have kids. I have unlimited freedom in my life, and I wouldn't give that away for all the tea in china. If I had kids? they would spell the death of anything "freedom", in its vaguest sense.


ANYWAY.

Pitbulls are very hit & miss. A close chick friend of mine has one, and its extremely well trained, although I seriously wouldn't want to piss it off though.
Shes a phenomenal trainer, which really helps, but if that dog wasn't well trained, I wouldn't want to go near it.

Pit bulls and small kids, do not mix.... or even with people if the owners dont know how to properly train it. Its just too risky, so I can fully understand Ontario's flat out ban on such dogs. :nut:

[frizzlefry]

While I don't really agree with Ontario's flat-out bred ban (as I think it forces breeding underground) I do think there should be a special license for Pit Bulls.

I have owned German Shepherds and Belgian Malinois growing up. We did Schutzhund training with them and they are excellent guard dogs because they are very predictable. Easy to control, easy to establish a hierarchy in the family (kids included). They knew their role, instinctively protected my younger nieces and nephews. But we would never, ever, trust them 100% around unfamiliar kids. And these dogs were easily trained/predictable.

Pit Bulls can be wonderful dogs. They are far more friendly, less stranger cautious than Shepherds/Malinois. They are also smart. But they make poor (properly trained) guard dogs. Reason is they do not respond well to dominance training. Pits do not like having a hierarchy reinforced on them. In order to be a controlled and predictable guard dog that will always obey commands they must not only learn them but also always, without fail, view their handler and the handler's family as the dominant members. You simply cannot do that with most pits as they were bred for fighting and fighting dogs can never view their opponent as dominant. So they are not inclined to accept a non-alpha role in training.

They often appear overly friendly which lulls owners into a false sense of a) my dog thinks I'm the boss and b) my dog is so friendly they would never hurt anyone. That is until they are "switched on". And because they likely don't see their owner as an alpha leader they cannot be called off.

You need serious experience to have a pit and understand their instincts. They can be wonderful dogs but it does not come easy. They make HORRIBLE guard dogs and, unfortunately, much of their reputation comes being owned by asswipes who wanted a big tough looking guard dog.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Not the appropriate environment to attempt to rehab a violent dog.

Parenting fail.

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Clearly you've decided what side of the argument I was referring to. Well done Miss Cleo! :thumbsup:


Not to smart are you ? Am I suppose to take offence to this miss Cleo comment. Fucking moron .

Thanks Champ :clap:

Next time , come back with a proper argument . But if you wanna talk some smack about me , you can try if ya want :thumbsup:

[RatherBePerfin]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
Not the appropriate environment to attempt to rehab a violent dog.

Parenting fail.

Absolutely. I wonder if Ontario will be placing a ban on stupid people any time soon?

[msommers]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ



Not to smart are you ?

Sorry man, I couldn't resist...

Anyways I think you're both on the same page where the blame gets unnecessarily put on the breed...

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ
Not to smart are you ? Am I suppose to take offence to this miss Cleo comment. Fucking moron .

Thanks Champ :clap:

Next time , come back with a proper argument . But if you wanna talk some smack about me , you can try if ya want :thumbsup:

Well, as demonstrated by our obtuse friend here there are clearly some owners who are just idiots.... :rofl:

Sometimes it's the dog, sometimes it's the people around it. Frizzlefry pretty much got it right, no point beating this horse anymore. Putz. :thumbsup:

[bjstare]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ
Not to smart are you ? Am I suppose to take offence to this miss Cleo comment. Fucking moron .

......

:rofl:

[AudiPWR]

ouch...

[rx7boi]

http://data2.whicdn.com/images/12119776/Voldemort-got-your-nose_large.jpg

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
You need serious experience to have a pit and understand their instincts. They can be wonderful dogs but it does not come easy. They make HORRIBLE guard dogs and, unfortunately, much of their reputation comes being owned by asswipes who wanted a big tough looking guard dog.

I both agree and disagree with you on this. I agree that it is harder for a pitbull, with it's typically stubborn attitude, to be properly trained. I also agree that far too many of these dogs are owned by "asswipes", and as such, don't have the devotion of the owner to properly train it. (And I also believe the bad reputation of pitbulls is largely due to exactly this). I will also add that a pitbull is not a good first dog for a person who doesn't have experience training dogs.

I do not, however, agree that they make horrible guard dogs with the exception of the fact that bully breeds are typically TOO friendly with humans and may not actually serve that purpose well unless faced with a situation where they realize they need to protect the family.

I have a Staffordshire, and know that if someone walked into my home while I was gone there is a good chance he wouldn't give a crap. However, if he was attacked or if anyone tried to attack us in our home they will likely leave missing a hand or two.

We have spent a lot of time training our dog. He's truly amazing; he knows a lot of tricks and understands his place in our family. He's very good with my toddler son and I can say that I'm very comfortable with him around humans. However, due to his very strong bite I still keep an eye on him around others just because I believe that is my responsibility in owning a powerful breed. I constantly keep an eye on him and his body language to ensure he isn't getting too excited or demonstrating behavior that is undesirable and could lead to any kind of incident.

With this said, I will admit we have been unable to get his fighting instinct towards other dogs out of him. I don't blame this on him exactly, since I believe this is a failure of our ability to properly train him in that regard. Every bit of training we've performed with him has worked extremely well with this being the exception. I know he is capable of being around other dogs - as we've been able to work with him with my mother's Bichon without incident. But I simply cannot trust him, and that means I need to be responsible accordingly. Unfortunately, no dog parks, and only very close supervision with other animals - including reading his body language closely before an attack occurs. It's truly unfortunate, since he is a virtually perfect dog in every other way.

With all of this said, if we were the kind of owners who didn't give a crap, it could very well end up as one of those stories you hear about where a "pitbull" up and killed another person's pet. It is my responsibility as his owner to ensure that doesn't happen.

[ZeroGravity]

Originally posted by Kloubek


I both agree and disagree with you on this. I agree that it is harder for a pitbull, with it's typically stubborn attitude, to be properly trained. I also agree that far too many of these dogs are owned by "asswipes", and as such, don't have the devotion of the owner to properly train it. (And I also believe the bad reputation of pitbulls is largely due to exactly this). I will also add that a pitbull is not a good first dog for a person who doesn't have experience training dogs.

I do not, however, agree that they make horrible guard dogs with the exception of the fact that bully breeds are typically TOO friendly with humans and may not actually serve that purpose well unless faced with a situation where they realize they need to protect the family.

I have a Staffordshire, and know that if someone walked into my home while I was gone there is a good chance he wouldn't give a crap. However, if he was attacked or if anyone tried to attack us in our home they will likely leave missing a hand or two.

We have spent a lot of time training our dog. He's truly amazing; he knows a lot of tricks and understands his place in our family. He's very good with my toddler son and I can say that I'm very comfortable with him around humans. However, due to his very strong bite I still keep an eye on him around others just because I believe that is my responsibility in owning a powerful breed. I constantly keep an eye on him and his body language to ensure he isn't getting too excited or demonstrating behavior that is undesirable and could lead to any kind of incident.

With this said, I will admit we have been unable to get his fighting instinct towards other dogs out of him. I don't blame this on him exactly, since I believe this is a failure of our ability to properly train him in that regard. Every bit of training we've performed with him has worked extremely well with this being the exception. I know he is capable of being around other dogs - as we've been able to work with him with my mother's Bichon without incident. But I simply cannot trust him, and that means I need to be responsible accordingly. Unfortunately, no dog parks, and only very close supervision with other animals - including reading his body language closely before an attack occurs. It's truly unfortunate, since he is a virtually perfect dog in every other way.

With all of this said, if we were the kind of owners who didn't give a crap, it could very well end up as one of those stories you hear about where a "pitbull" up and killed another person's pet. It is my responsibility as his owner to ensure that doesn't happen.

wow... good for you :)

I don't have a pitbull, but I have a Siberian Husky and a JRT. Huskies have their share of bad news in the media as well. Out of the two, my JRT is probably the more aggresive one. Although she getting really old now (14). But like you, I have to keep an eye on my husky all the time with my toddler around. Not because she had shown any signs of aggression, but simply because of her potential in strength and that I don't trust my toddler as he tends to play a bit too rough when getting excited.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Kloubek
~snip~ I wish there was a "LIKE" button on beyond.

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Well, as demonstrated by our obtuse friend here there are clearly some owners who are just idiots.... :rofl:

Sometimes it's the dog, sometimes it's the people around it. Frizzlefry pretty much got it right, no point beating this horse anymore. Putz. :thumbsup:


No its always the owner , Putz :thumbsup:


yKHznwVTxYg

Good watch for dog people

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ
No its always the owner , Putz :thumbsup:

Then I would expect YOUR dogs to attack irrationally and with no reasonable provocation due to their inability to understand their basic surroundings.

Nice job, champ. :thumbsup:


EDIT: Are you really so fucking daft that you still can't figure out I was pro dog in this situation? :facepalm:

[lilmira]

Mandatory
FONN-0uoTHI

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Then I would expect YOUR dogs to attack irrationally and with no reasonable provocation due to their inability to understand their basic surroundings.

Nice job, champ. :thumbsup:


EDIT: Are you really so fucking daft that you still can't figure out I was pro dog in this situation? :facepalm:


Then you should of phrased it better , because thats not how I read it.

Ive rescued 8 pitbulls in the past 5 years and also fostered many other big mixed breed dogs so they can find forever homes . I do this on my own time because I feel like some owners have destroyed dogs lives because they are lazy or think they are cool having a big dog .

Clearly I am daft if I didn't understand what you said . Sarcasm isn't always detected in typed messages , especially in a heated topic . :dunno:

[riander5]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ



Then you should of phrased it better , because thats not how I read it.

Ive rescued 8 pitbulls in the past 5 years and also fostered many other big mixed breed dogs so they can find forever homes . I do this on my own time because I feel like some owners have destroyed dogs lives because they are lazy or think they are cool having a big dog .

Clearly I am daft if I didn't understand what you said . Sarcasm isn't always detected in typed messages , especially in a heated topic . :dunno:

:nut: :banghead:

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Kloubek

I do not, however, agree that they make horrible guard dogs with the exception of the fact that bully breeds are typically TOO friendly with humans and may not actually serve that purpose well unless faced with a situation where they realize they need to protect the family.


Sorry I was not clear on the context of what I meant. Of course they will protect their family, like most dogs will, if they are threatened. What I meant when I said they make horrible guard dogs is if they are trained to be guard dogs. If you take a pitbull and run a Schutzhund training regimen on them, or otherwise encourage aggression in any way, you will end up with a 90lb liability not a guard dog.

Which is what a lot of the tough guy owners do and you end up with an animal that makes it on the news.

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Sorry I was not clear on the context of what I meant. Of course they will protect their family, like most dogs will, if they are threatened. What I meant when I said they make horrible guard dogs is if they are trained to be guard dogs. If you take a pitbull and run a Schutzhund training regimen on them, or otherwise encourage aggression in any way, you will end up with a 90lb liability not a guard dog.

Which is what a lot of the tough guy owners do and you end up with an animal that makes it on the news.


No you are right . Pitbulls do make terrible Guard dogs .

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by riander5


:nut: :banghead:


right....

[Inzane]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
Two of my co workers are my age, with kids, and I wouldn't wish their absolute hellish life on my worst enemy. Not to mention the intense financial strain and everything else that comes with kids. To this day? if there is anything Im supremely grateful for? its to not have kids. I have unlimited freedom in my life, and I wouldn't give that away for all the tea in china. If I had kids? they would spell the death of anything "freedom", in its vaguest sense.

Wow...... just, wow.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Sorry I was not clear on the context of what I meant. Of course they will protect their family, like most dogs will, if they are threatened. What I meant when I said they make horrible guard dogs is if they are trained to be guard dogs.

Yeah, I agree with this. In no way have we done any kind of "intruder training" or anything of the like with our Staffy. He'll naturally defend us if required; no need to make him any more aggressive.

[CapnCrunch]

White trash dogs.
White trash people.
White trash problems.

Nothing more to see here. Move along everyone.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
White trash dogs.
White trash people.
White trash problems.

Nothing more to see here. Move along everyone.

This, and I'm white.

[Thomas Gabriel]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
White trash dogs.
White trash people.
White trash problems.

Nothing more to see here. Move along everyone.

Yeah except it's white yuppies now too.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Kloubek


Yeah, I agree with this. In no way have we done any kind of "intruder training" or anything of the like with our Staffy. He'll naturally defend us if required; no need to make him any more aggressive.

Actually proper guard training is not supposed to make the dog more aggressive. You are just shaping the aggression that's already there so that the dog applies it properly and learns to control it. Actually makes the dog safer. Attacking is actually one of the last, and easiest, things to teach.

This is what some guys at a guard dog training facility taught us for training a guard dog for the home. In the back yard have the dog on a leash. Have a friend/family member dress up in something that obscures their appearance and is something they don't normally wear so their scent is not on it. Have them sneak into the yard. The minute the dog even notices them raise your hand signalling the "baddie" to turn and run away. Repeat and repeat. Then only raise your hand when the dog changes his posture to something more aggressive. Escalate to have the baddie run only if the dog quietly growls and so and so on until the dog gets really pissed and starts barking. Mix it up with the previous triggers like posture alone or quiet growls. Over and over and over and over.

This does a couple things:
a) The dog becomes confident, learns that an attack is not needed to drive off a threat and simply telling someone to fuck off should be enough. A confident dog does not fear bite or bite suddenly without ample warning
b) The dog learns the commands to turn off the aggression. Also learns the commands to turn it on if you happen to see something they don't
c) Fearful situations are now handled confidently. The dog will always give warning before attacking because its not afraid and knows that a scary person does not necessarily mean harm to me.

With pits this does not work very well. You can train to escalate for sure but most are not receptive to the level of dominance required to turn off the aggression. That's the dangerous part. On top of that most people who buy a "bad ass pit" aren't training them right anyway and just teaching them to be vicious.

I tell anyone who tells me they have a new shepherd or Doberman puppy to get them trained, at least at a basic level, in proper guard dog techniques. The aggression is there, whether you do guard training or not, and the owner (and dog) need to learn to properly use it and control it.

Lack of this training leads to German Shepherds biting. Most shepherd bites can be attributed to miss-read body language. If the dog knew that they should communicate "fuck off" before attacking these bites would not happen.

[Kloubek]

Interesting read fizzlefry - thanks for that. Normally when I form an opinion it is based on research and experience, but I will admit I guess I made an uninformed assumption regarding guard dog training.

One more thing I wanted to mention: I play real rough with my dog. Besides protecting my family, I got a strong dog to ensure that I can roughhouse with him without inadvertently hurting him. Letting him get all excited when I play with him this way probably completely goes against what someone like Cesar Milan would teach, but with both get a lot of enjoyment out of it. (Even if my arms sometimes end up bruised and bleeding from accidental scratches, etc)

The only reason I deem this kind of play acceptable is because no matter how excited he gets, all I need to do is change my posture and hold up my hand, and he stops instantly. It's actually quite amazing how quickly I can get him from all snarling and physical to being completely relaxed. I'd say in general, it takes anywhere from 2-5 seconds for this to occur. By the end of that, I can calmly whisper any command and he will perform it. Lay down, on your side, etc.

I'm not suggesting anyone lets their powerful breeds get excited like I do. It probably isn't healthy, since the dominant being is supposed to keep all situations under control. But if owners choose to, I want to say that I believe it is important for the dog to understand it is just play, and the moment you want to stop, he stops. The same goes for playing tug-of-war as well. I often stop abruptly mid-way through play to ensure he de-escalates immediately, as well as understands that the rope is mine and he is only allowed to battle me with it when I deem it ok.

Again, I think it is very important for people with any kind of "dangerous" breed to ensure that their dog listens to them no matter how intense they get while playing. Or even walking. I have a neighbor with a pitbull and occasionally see them out for walks. The dog is always rushing ahead of the owner, and I think that kind of attitude can only lead to trouble.

[busdepot]

This is entirely the fault of dumb owners. This has nothing to do with the breed. I don't care what you think you know about animals and dogs, but they should not be around 1 year old children. Period. There is absolutely no reason to have a dog and a child playing at one year old. Zero.

Even though dogs can be expertly trained and whatever else, they are still animals. Their instincts are not always predictable even though your dog is "great with kids" and "would never bite anyone". There is no certainty there. I would never in a million years endanger my own child's life like that. Put these dipshit parents in jail. Not to say that I'm going to be a mega overprotective parent, but this poor kid can't even walk yet and now her life is fucked thanks to her fucking idiot parents.

[Supa Dexta]

I've told this story before, but 20 years ago now I knew a family who's small kid was playing with a great dog, the dog had a stick and shook his head back and forth like they always do, getting the kid in the eye and killing him. You never know what can happen.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by busdepot
There is absolutely no reason to have a dog and a child playing at one year old. Zero.


I agree somewhat. I think the comfort level can be at least increased when the dog has a history of being good with kids and the parents/owners properly monitor and assess the dog's body language. Of course, your points about a dogs being still animals is entirely valid - I guess it just depends how careful a parent wants to be. Having a toddler at this point, I know how difficult it can be to keep the two separated at all times.

When our son was under 1 year old, we kept our dog back. There was no contact allowed for the first 6 months, and only brief contact allowed under arms-length supervision after that. Now that he's 1 1/2, we're monitored how the two interact. While we're still not comfortable just leaving them alone in a room together, we're becoming less and less concerned. At this point, we're really just keeping an eye out to make sure neither dog nor child are cornered, or in any dangerous-looking scenarios like that.

Supa: What a horrible tragedy - and, really, who would have imagined that would have happened? While the parents could (and should) have been more careful, their mistake is probably one that millions have made without incident.

[cancer man]

One of my customers told me a story about a cat that slept on the babies face
and suffocated the baby.

[D. Dub]

What I don't get about the whole pit bull defenders defence is this:

Let me lay the stage first. I have 2 different herding dogs -- a border collie cross that circles, and stalks and uses its eyes to stare at the people or cats or other dogs its trying to herd.

My other dog is an Australian Cattle Dog and it herds people and cats and cars and dogs by nipping and yipping at them. Nipping their noses and butts to be more precise.

My dogs have these instinctual/hereditary herding behaviours that are "just there" bc of breeding.

Now why is it not possible that fighting dogs that were bred to fight and kill -- would not inherently and willfully perform these inbred behaviours?

And don't give me that stupid argument that they were bred to gentle to humans because dogs transfer most canine behaviours to humans as a rule.

Any thoughts?

[gretz]

Did you own both dogs from pups and they just naturally know how to herd cattle / animals?

[JAYMEZ]

Im not to sure about your to dogs , but the "Pitbull type" of dog is not a distinct breed . So many dogs can fall under the category of Pitbull .

The fighting type dogs didn't have the choice or want to fight . Have you seen what humans do to the dogs that fight ? Bait dogs , and starving and feeding / beating them . Any dog or human would probably do the same .

You can follow what happened to Michael Vicks fighting dogs here
http://parade.condenast.com/48473/jimgorant/15-vicks-dogs/

As for one of my dogs , she was a bait dog . She has a lot of scars all over her , and I don't go a day without people saying how well and happy she is .

And as for the white trash comments , I am far from white trash . So thanks for coming out .



Also random article I found

A study by Raghaven in Canada, which showed that breed specific legislation limits the number of pitbulls, and where sled dogs and free roaming packs of dogs is more common than in the United States, an electronic search of newspaper articles found that pit bull terriers were responsible for 1 (4%) of 28 dog-bite-related fatalities reported in Canada from 1990–2007.[37]

The study also noted that:

"A higher proportion of sled dogs and, possibly, mixed-breed dogs in Canada than in the United States caused fatalities, as did multiple dogs rather than single dogs. Free-roaming dog packs, reported only from rural communities, caused most on-reserve fatalities."
In a project called the "Calgary Model," legislation addressing bad owners instead of breeds has been the focus. After implementation, which included fining the owner $350–$1,500 in dog bite cases, there was a 25-year low in the incidence of such cases

[blairtruck]

i think i read edmonton lifted the breed ban last year?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by D. Dub
My dogs have these instinctual/hereditary herding behaviours that are "just there" bc of breeding.

Now why is it not possible that fighting dogs that were bred to fight and kill -- would not inherently and willfully perform these inbred behaviours?

And don't give me that stupid argument that they were bred to gentle to humans because dogs transfer most canine behaviours to humans as a rule.

I don't agree with you at all. Where is the proof that dogs transfer all their behaviors to humans? I'd like to see this from a reputable source, if you don't mind. I can tell you absolutely that my dog interacts with humans WAY different than he does with other dogs.

And to your original point: It's all about breeding, as you already stated in your own post. A reputable breeder will take the best traits and base their bloodlines on that. In the case of dogs which came from fighting stock, the instinct should be at largely bred out of them by now. The instinct to kill is something that was added to the breed by man, and it's something that can eventually be removed by man as well. Is it out of all pitbulls yet? I'd say probably not - but I think that has more to do with puppy mills, non-reputable breeders, and the fact that dog fighting bans is a fairly recent thing, and the "maturity" of the bloodlines varies.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by D. Dub


And don't give me that stupid argument that they were bred to gentle to humans because dogs transfer most canine behaviours to humans as a rule.

Any thoughts?

I think we should experiment and breed convicted murderers with psychopaths and then all act surprised when these children go on psychopathic murdering sprees. Then we'll blame their parents... Oh, Wait...

[Toma]

Of course it genetics. Silly argument even 20 years later.

Sheesh.

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch


I think we should experiment and breed convicted murderers with psychopaths and then all act surprised when these children go on psychopathic murdering sprees. Then we'll blame their parents... Oh, Wait...


I love arguments like this ... comparing humans and animals . We totally share the same traits and beliefs

:banghead:

[Thomas Gabriel]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ



I love arguments like this ... comparing humans and animals . We totally share the same traits and beliefs

:banghead:

You don't think it's possible to breed an extremely violent animal?

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by Thomas Gabriel


You don't think it's possible to breed an extremely violent animal?

To naturally from birth be violent ? What are we breeding here ?


From birth ? What would you be breeding to make an animal to want to kill without human influence ? A wolf or what ?

It almost seems similar to the argument about we are all born not racist , just the influence around us makes our values change .

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Interesting read fizzlefry - thanks for that.

No problem. People forget that aggression is a natural, and primary, element to any pack of wolves or wild canines. Wolves are taught by their pack how to properly use aggression to communicate. If they attacked at the slightest threat the species would be doomed. So, it's something that needs to be taught by human owners as well but owning a pet dog is all cuddles and fetch. They don't learn how to use their aggression and the minute that aggression instinct kicks in they have no idea what to do. Some hide, some run, some act submissively and some bite.

ALL breeds can benefit from same basic guard training. I say guard training but, at a basic level, you are really training "what to do when you are mad or scared".


Originally posted by JAYMEZ
The fighting type dogs didn't have the choice or want to fight . Have you seen what humans do to the dogs that fight ? Bait dogs , and starving and feeding / beating them . Any dog or human would probably do the same .

I completely agree that what people do to fighting dogs is disgusting. I also don't think that bully breeds are more aggressive but, as I mentioned before, many do not respond well to dominance because they are bred to fight which can lead to biting as they see themselves as the alpha AND have not been taught how to properly escalate their aggression...quite the opposite in fact.

If you are beating a dog and treating them like crap the dogs will split into different "camps". The ones that submit and the ones that don't. The ones that submit are used as bait dogs. The ones that don't are encouraged to become vicious and used to fight. And, in those circles, are the ones used to breed (non-submission is a desirable trait) resulting in a high risk of adopting a dog predisposed to dominance. I am not saying its unique to bully breeds, it's not. I would say ANY litter has a mega alpha in there somewhere. Its just with bully breeds it's more likely to have a whole litter of them.

I am sure a bait dog would be a wonderful pet. If they were a bait dog then they likely expressed the ability to submit early on. It was their innate temperament and not a breed characteristic they wanted.

IMO if the powers that be wanted to fix the "plague" of bully breeds tearing apart people then come down on the damn people breeding them for fighting. Crush that culture with a sledgehammer. After a couple of generations of pits not being bred for fighting the mega-alpha dominance trait would dramatically reduce. Once that happens pits would likely be considered one of the friendliest breeds to get.

*edit* Also JAYMEZ I would like to give you props for adopting a pit. :thumbsup:. Wife and I have thought about it once we get a house. There is certainly no shortage of pits to adopt given the ban in Ontario. But that ban has forced breeding "underground" and we are not sure if we want to take the risk of adopting because of the high probability of getting a "fighting" dog due to the fact that the ban has basically ensured only people who fight them are breeding them. I know that my experience and how I train dogs has a high likelihood of failure because I train for guard duty and want a guard dog. We really want a Boerboel but good luck adopting one of those :( But, again, props to you. :)

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ



No its always the owner , Putz :thumbsup:


yKHznwVTxYg

Good watch for dog people

Just an FYI for people. Cesar Millan is not an amazing dog trainer. He is a FANTASIC dog owner, but not trainer for the masses. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called "What the dog saw". Its not about about dog training, its a collection of stories about various misinterpreted things people think are something they are not.

Anyways, there is a chapter about Cesar and it inspired the title of the book. He used to be a ballroom dancer. He has a way of movement about him that is very graceful and a natural body language communicator for dogs. He does it 24/7. Its just how he is. His books try to train common techniques on dog training and also touch on how moving like him can be of great benefit. But no one moves like him 24/7.

This is why, on his show, he often takes dogs away to his place to live with him while he trains. He has a natural grace which enables him to quickly (and amazingly!) rehab dogs so fast. But its not possible to move like him 24/7 in your own home. You are not Cesar.

Brad Pattison (TV guy from "At The End Of My Leash) is a far better trainer as he does not "kidnap" dogs to his place to miraculously cure them. He teaches the owners how to work within their own homes and their personalities.

Better guy to read about training from.

[Toma]

If its nurture only in the nature/nurture debate....

Why don't you see many pit bulls as hunting dogs and labs as fighting dogs?

Humans are genetically tribal in nature. That is the root of racism, nationalism, patriotism. We can evlolve past it, but for now we are born that way, but taught and use reason and philosophy and morality to make 'un natural' choices.

Animals can be taught only so far, but lack the higher faculties, and are much more instinct driven. Much more fight or flight and maybe think about it later.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma
If its nurture only in the nature/nurture debate....

Why don't you see many pit bulls as hunting dogs and labs as fighting dogs?

Humans are genetically tribal in nature. That is the root of racism, nationalism, patriotism. We can evlolve past it, but for now we are born that way, but taught and use reason and philosophy and morality to make 'un natural' choices.

Animals can be taught only so far, but lack the higher faculties, and are much more instinct driven. Much more fight or flight and maybe think about it later.

Way off base man. Wolves have have very complex relationships and are capable of "racism". The "higher faculties" that humans desire can be implanted into the dog by their owners. It is very true that certain breeds have a "nature" based drive to do certain things. That's why we breed them. Its up to the owner to apply those traits in a productive way. I have seen untrained border collies collect paper clips. Lack of direction (and sheep) led them to collect paper clips to alleviate their instinct to organize and collect.

You need to understand the breed. A pit's instincts are, genetically, rather benign. In fact, genetically, the other breed they have most in common with is the English bulldog. It's really a dog bred to do nothing originally. The differences between the two are cosmetic only.

There are temperament based issues no doubt. Some have a temperament for this and some that. A pit may be more likely to have a temperament for dominance (and I bet there are thousands of toy poodles that are worse). But not for fighting. That has to be trained. A dominant dog is simply better at it. Under an unskilled owner this dominance can manifest aggression but fighting is not a "from birth" thing they want to do.

Keep in mind that the genetic drive of a guarding Malinois or Hearding Collie has been developed over a very, very long time. The current "Pit Bull" is a very, very young bred in comparison. If you can even call them a bred and some kennel associations don't. They simply fit the mould for a short, muscular dog with stamina, 320lbs of jaw pressure and no other genetic instinctual "desires" to do anything. Essentially making them a "blank slate" for teaching something as easy as being vicious.

If being vicious was their genetic trait there would be no bait dogs. No training. They would simply unleash the dogs on each other when they hit 2 years of age. But no. It requires a concentrated effort to make them fight to the satisfaction of their owners.

If pits were not suspect due to the culture they tend to be bred in I would adopt a pit no problem. In the current environment I would adopt a puppy, no problem. My only hesitation is adopting a dog that may have been a fighter, which is hard to determine sometimes as people want their dogs adopted. And once that dog is trained to fight its very hard to make a good family pet out of it.

The only trait current pit bulls have is being prone to wilfulness and being dominant. In its current state its not a dog for a novice but its not a natural born killer either. Most of the issue sits with the people raising them. And being most are adopted, usually from a shitty situation, then I think its safe to say the big problem is the people not the dog.

[Toma]

Zoologists have been disagreeing with you for at least 20 years. I thought the discussion was over back then. Lol.

Can't believe it still comes up.

No one is born as a blank slate. That is severely old theory, long since forgotten.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma
Zoologists have been disagreeing with you for at least 20 years. I thought the discussion was over back then. Lol.

Can't believe it still comes up.

No one is born as a blank slate. That is severely old theory, long since forgotten.

"Blank Slate" was in quotes in an attempt to imply that the pit has no other predispositions that would oppose an abusive owner in training it to fight. Hence, no Boerboels in fighting. Noble instincts. Despite the fact they would demolish any other dog in a fight.

Pretty sure I brought up genetic predisposition numerous times. I am an affirment supporter of nature as opposed to nurture. But I'm not so dumb as to think nurture does not shape how nature is manifested. People are born sociopaths. Some become CEOs, some murder hookers. Depends on their upbringing on how likely they are to become either. But you can't teach a normal person to become a sociopath. Pretty much all the books on my shelf are by Steven Pinker so I know the debate. Misapplying the nature argument is what has held it back for so long because it implies the possibility of a practical application of eugenics which simply is not true.

In terms of the topic at hand you are simply confusing what genetic nature really is.

People can be genetically predisposed to temper, violence, apathy, altruism etc. They cannot be genetically predisposed to temper against their co-workers, violence against asians, apathy to washing their car or altruism to help old people.

Same goes for dogs. They can be genetically prone to dominance, but not attacking people because of it. That is all nurture.

[Toma]

Nope. Pit bulls are bread to be violent, tested to be violent, and you can't teach it out of them on all levels.

Neural pathways are to a great extent pre formed in the womb. Our hearts beat on their own, we start to breath on our own. No one needs to teach us this behavior. It is pre wired. It's controlled by neural pathways that are genetically pre disposed and executed.

You can learn to temper, or slightly alter this or other behaviour. Ditto with animals.

But it's not full proof, and not to all levels.

I had a black lab. Most gentle, caring, loving dog ever. One day, about age 10, in an excited, aroused sate, he decided to bite the mail man that he had known for 3 years. As his teeth were sunk into the thigh of the mailman, the poor fella yelled "Joe! Stop!" and the dog released him and was his buddy again.

Even studies in humans have shown that what we do and are capable of when aroused is SEVERELY different from what we would do in a normal state, and not only that, it is very different from what we PREDICT we will do when in a heightened state of arousal.

Again, stupid argument, in the case of Pitbulls IT IS the breed, proven 20+ years ago, and makes logical sense.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma
I had a black lab. Most gentle, caring, loving dog ever. One day, about age 10, in an excited, aroused sate, he decided to bite the mail man that he had known for 3 years. As his teeth were sunk into the thigh of the mailman, the poor fella yelled "Joe! Stop!" and the dog released him and was his buddy again.


All this shows is that you are a pretty bad dog trainer. Nullifying any opinion you have about dogs and their behaviour.

One of my Malinois encountered the mail man once. We open the garage door to take him out just as the mailman was walking up the driveway. A guard-trained-schutzhund-Malinois that could do shit like this:
Ktyq3JPQ-N8

You know what he did? Using posture and vocal threats he held the mail man in one spot without touching him. Mail man hit him in the head with a parcel (mail man was scared shitless of course). Dog grabbed the parcel, threw it, and kept holding him to that spot without touching him.

Your lab bit someone? Shows you don't know shit about dogs or what drives them.

[Toma]

Dude, you are clueless (again). The mailman had been his friend for 3 years. Seen him daily, pets, treats. 3 years. Out of the blue, bit him.

It's an animal. Not human, and never will be.

[Toma]

Keep in mind though... we are talking relative aggression among large dogs.

A pitbull is more aggressive compared to a chocolate lab, but LESS aggressive than a Chihuahua or wiener dog.

But an out of control Chihuahua isn't gonna kill anything.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma
Dude, you are clueless (again). The mailman had been his friend for 3 years. Seen him daily, pets, treats. 3 years. Out of the blue, bit him.

It's an animal. Not human, and never will be.

You are clueless. Dogs don't (naturally) recognize people that don't live on their property as "friends". If you initiate the greeting than it can have that appearance but its only usually only because of your lead. Or perhaps he was wearing a new uniform or one washed in a different detergent and did not smell like the "buddy" he knew.

I'll tell you this, if any of my buddies that my dog knew broke in and raised their hands to say hi they very likely would have been torn to pieces if they ignored the ample warnings.

Either way, I said before, my dogs were trained to an art. They were as exact as a bed made at boot camp. And I would still never trust them around strange kids. And they were not pits.

Just because you managed to raised a dog as benign as a lab that would randomly bite someone only shows your failure as a dog owner. Unless you think we should ban and euthanize labs too?

Pit owners, hands up if your dog has never bitten anyone like Toma's?

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma

A pitbull is more aggressive compared to a chocolate lab, but LESS aggressive than a Chihuahua or wiener dog.


No way. I have known small dogs that were a terror. You are right in that physical size has something to do with it and that's why pits are a target for fight breeding. They are relatively benign, no natural urges except dominance (which most toy breeds have BTW) except they have a low center of gravity, high muscle density and no pesky protective instincts (or any other) to get in the way of making them volatile.

[dirtsniffer]

My pit mastiff mix has never bitten anyone. Never tried to either. When we are at the park generally labs are the biggest jerks there too.

[Nitro5]

Why bother, Toma is an expert in all fields.

[cancer man]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
My pit mastiff mix has never bitten anyone. Never tried to either. When we are at the park generally labs are the biggest jerks there too.

do you take steroids?

[Rat Fink]

.

[dirtsniffer]

I did, I decided to stop before I had to replace my entire ed hardy collection.

She was rescued from the humane society and is a great dog that is easily better trained than 90% of dogs out there.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by frizzlefry



You need to understand the breed. A pit's instincts are, genetically, rather benign. In fact, genetically, the other breed they have most in common with is the English bulldog. It's really a dog bred to do nothing originally. The differences between the two are cosmetic only.



Sidetracking the thread..
Just curious as to why you say genetically the Pit has the most in common with an English Bulldog. I own an EBD and had never heard that anywhere.
I get neither really had a real purpose in the real world besides human sport.. but the disposition of both couldnt be more opposite.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by R-Audi


Sidetracking the thread..
Just curious as to why you say genetically the Pit has the most in common with an English Bulldog. I own an EBD and had never heard that anywhere.
I get neither really had a real purpose in the real world besides human sport.. but the disposition of both couldnt be more opposite.

That's what I always thought...
link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull#History)

All pit bulls were created with similar cross-breeding between bulldogs and terriers, but each individual pit bull breed has a distinct history.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
No way. I have known small dogs that were a terror. You are right in that physical size has something to do with it and that's why pits are a target for fight breeding. They are relatively benign, no natural urges except dominance (which most toy breeds have BTW) except they have a low center of gravity, high muscle density and no pesky protective instincts (or any other) to get in the way of making them volatile.

I mostly agree with this. Of course, this isn't to say small breeds are naturally more aggressive either. I think what happens is two-fold: 1) People aren't always careful to ensure their small breeds are always in line, because they think they're "cute", or try to humanize the little breeds as their children/friends, and 2) When a small breed bites, you're like... "ouch... that hurts". When a large breed bites, you're like... "holy fuck... my fingers are missing". As such, you don't hear about small breeds being aggressive as much; it just doesn't make the news or gets talked about.

I'm not sure I would agree that Pitbulls are universally benign though. At one time this was likely true, but after man interfered with the breed and bred some bloodlines to be aggressive, I do think there's still some out there which have a predisposition to attack. (Other animals, at least).

I look at my Staffy, and although I already admitted some level of failure in my training when it comes to his dog aggression, the fact I've been unable to train that out of him shows me that his natural instinct is very strong. (And has been since he was a pup; though it has gotten worse over time)

[Toma]

Originally posted by Nitro5
Why bother, Toma is an expert in all fields.

Not an expert, but well versed in psychology, sociology, cellular biology (which of course includes genetics and biochemistry). Though only a few actual classes, I like to read on Economics and political science theory and practice.

Oh, and I know a little bit about cars as well.

:poosie:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Seth1968
What compels some people to enclose another life form?

Seriously, why do you have a pet?



Originally posted by Kloubek


As a rescue, there could be something said about simply helping the animal to lead a better life than it would have elsewhere. Or, better yet - to keep it from being euthanized.

For those who purchase from a breeder, the same cannot be said and I suppose it could be viewed as a selfish thing.

But with that said, we bought our dog from a breeder and I believe he is very happy with his life - enclosed or not. And her certainly does bring an intangible depth to our lives as well. Not to mention he's just fun to have around, my son loves interacting with him.


Flame suit on....

Every one of those points Kloubek, is fundamentally saying, "I use another life form for emotional gratification".

Well, that's the real motivation of most pet owners, but IMO, the worst is taking a flying or swimming life form and enslaving it in a cage.

[Kloubek]

Every one? Perhaps the last sentence. And I will not deny it - buying a pet really is a selfish act. But again, so is having kids. It's human nature to do what we want, and we as a whole have been doing so since the beginning of man.

But you never really addressed how saving a dog in a shelter can save it's life. Would you find it better for the dog to be stuck in the shelter or killed?

[Toma]

Having kids is not selfish. That is the entire essence of life.

[Kloubek]

...so the "essence of life" only pertains to humans, and doesn't involve other beings... like, say, a puppy?

The fact is that, for the most part, a dog is subject to similar treatment by humans as a child is. They are "enclosed" in a house. They are fed and cleaned. They are played with, spoken to, and ordered around. There's really not a heck of a lot of difference in the treatment, so I'm curious what the difference is in the minds of anti-pet people like Seth.

In case of a caged bird, or a fish in a fishbowl, for example, I can see a case. In those cases, the animals are subject to conditions which are a detriment to their well-being. But not so much for dogs and cats. I think they can have a pretty happy and healthy life. As can a child. And in both cases, they were brought into this world for the betterment and desires of another human.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Toma
Having kids is not selfish. That is the entire essence of life.

Well, if you are a proponent of nature as opposed to nurture then you should also understand the idea of the selfish gene. Technically, on a biological level, insisting on having your own kids is selfish.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Every one? Perhaps the last sentence. And I will not deny it - buying a pet really is a selfish act. But again, so is having kids. It's human nature to do what we want, and we as a whole have been doing so since the beginning of man.

But you never really addressed how saving a dog in a shelter can save it's life. Would you find it better for the dog to be stuck in the shelter or killed?

Not at all. I admire people who do that.

But this whole idea of animal ownership is why they're in a shelter to begin with.

[JAYMEZ]

Wow this turned into a shit show . Anyways , every pit bull I have owned has never been aggressive , Ive only been bit by a deer , a goat and a Dalmatian .


This thread has turned into :thumbsdow . Hows the snow in Calgary ?