2014 Gran Premio Español

[CapnCrunch]

Lets get this started. It's been 3 weeks!!

There's some big talking from a few of teams making major changes to their cars.

Any chance someone other than Mercedes is going to compete for a victory?

Or are we going to get the usual 15 position changes off the starting grid, and then 64 parade laps?

[CapnCrunch]

Mercedes is "ricing out" their cars this weekend.

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/mercedes-to-try-out-megaphone-exhaust-in-spain

Fart cans for everyone!!!

[rage2]

Barcelona is a huge downforce track, so the only teams competing for a win this weekend will be Mercedes and Red Bull who are pretty much even on DF. Everyone else is pretty far behind on downforce this year. RBR is still struggling (compared to Merc) on tire wear, so I'm guessing this will be another walk in the park for Merc.

In RBR's case, the Renault Power Unit has no hardware updates, as the team already took on new spec hardware last race and can't afford to use up more engine allocations this early on in the season. There's software updates that claw back some power in terms of the MGUs, but doubtful that it'll be enough to really challenge the Mercs. Renault says it won't be till the Canadian or British Grand Prix before they have a hardware/software spec that they're happy with.

If there's any movement between the teams, it'll be between Force India, Ferrari and maybe Williams depending on their updates. I've lost all hope for McLaren this year, their aero team is bare thanks to RBR locking down their aero guys that were on the way to McLaren, and they're still completely lost on setup on a base launch car. I've come to the conclusion that it's Button's fault for not able to setup a car properly, and relying on Hamilton when he was still on the team.

[ExtremeSi]

Originally posted by rage2
Barcelona is a huge downforce track, so the only teams competing for a win this weekend will be Mercedes and Red Bull who are pretty much even on DF. Everyone else is pretty far behind on downforce this year. RBR is still struggling (compared to Merc) on tire wear, so I'm guessing this will be another walk in the park for Merc.

In RBR's case, the Renault Power Unit has no hardware updates, as the team already took on new spec hardware last race and can't afford to use up more engine allocations this early on in the season. There's software updates that claw back some power in terms of the MGUs, but doubtful that it'll be enough to really challenge the Mercs. Renault says it won't be till the Canadian or British Grand Prix before they have a hardware/software spec that they're happy with.

If there's any movement between the teams, it'll be between Force India, Ferrari and maybe Williams depending on their updates. I've lost all hope for McLaren this year, their aero team is bare thanks to RBR locking down their aero guys that were on the way to McLaren, and they're still completely lost on setup on a base launch car. I've come to the conclusion that it's Button's fault for not able to setup a car properly, and relying on Hamilton when he was still on the team.

Interesting analysis. I've enjoyed this season so far and this 3 week break feels too long now haha. Looking forward to see what happens. At least the two Merc drivers have shown that they can have some exciting battles even if they're leading the pack again.

[phreezee]

Will be interesting to see if Lotus will leap frog McLaren this race, according to Nick Chester. Very disappointing for McLaren after a promising finish in Melbourne.

[EK 2.0]

Seb is geting a new car this weekend...I'm not expecting a lot but gosh I can hope for improvement haha...

[CapnCrunch]

Hamilton trolled practice again lol.

[Gibson]

http://giant.gfycat.com/NauticalUntidyHuman.gif

[Gibson]

FP1 was weird. Van der Garde nearly drove a Sauber into a wall, Perez's mirror fell off and a piece fell off Riccardo's car too.

Oh, and that's without mentioning that Seb's new car nearly lit on fire and he didn't get any runs in FP2. The two Lotuses also had separate issues in FP2.

And seriously, how is Caterham this bad? They had three weeks to try and get an edge on Marussia and they're now very clearly at the bottom of the pack. Bad time to be a Kobayashi fan.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by Gibson
http://giant.gfycat.com/NauticalUntidyHuman.gif

I know he probably let off, but that gif looks like he's still going balls out with one hand on the wheel.

:rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Gibson
And seriously, how is Caterham this bad? They had three weeks to try and get an edge on Marussia and they're now very clearly at the bottom of the pack. Bad time to be a Kobayashi fan.
Either they, or Lotus is going to be losing their engines soon too. Apparently, some of the Renault teams are behind on payment, and they're likely going to pull the engines from the car if that doesn't get resolved soon.

Could be Caterham, could be Lotus, could be both.

[Gibson]

Originally posted by rage2

Either they, or Lotus is going to be losing their engines soon too. Apparently, some of the Renault teams are behind on payment, and they're likely going to pull the engines from the car if that doesn't get resolved soon.

Could be Caterham, could be Lotus, could be both.

Yeah, I'm concerned about both teams. Even if Haas ends up being a starter in 2015 or 2016, if Lotus and Caterham are both gone, we're down to a 9-team grid, and that's pretty sad. At least Lotus has potential though. I heard it was possible both teams might pull the plug by mid-season if things don't get better.

I know the voting F1 teams are against a cost cap, but seriously, F1 with anything less than 10 teams is just going to eventually collapse on itself.

[phreezee]

Caterham must be doing something wrong if they can't afford engines with a free driver this year.

[Gibson]

Nothing unexpected with the Mercedes 1-2 on the starting grid, but big surprise from Riccardo, Grosjean and Bottas who all out qualified Ferrari.

You gotta feel a bit bad for Seb, I mean Christ, what a weekend. He was waving to the crowd after he got out his car though so at least he's keeping his head up. Looks like he'll be starting 15th after the gearbox change.

And WTF MALDONADO! Are you SERIOUS? Three minutes into qualifying and he stuffs it into a wall, and not even on a difficult corner. Even with all the money he brought to Lotus, he's gotta be costing them more in repairs than he's worth haha. What a plug.

Keep in mind too that Vergne has a 10-place penalty for the botched tire job in FP2, so he'll be back there too. Caterham seems to have taken several step backwards with their new aero package, so it looks like Marussia has a clear advantage in Spain. A bit surprised by Force India's lack of pace given their recent success.

I read somewhere that ~75% of Barcelona winners started on pole, so it shouldn't be a surprise who will win tomorrow, but it'll be interesting to see the duels between 3-10. Alonso will be wanting to give his home crowd a good show, so we'll see how Lotus, Williams and Red Bull can do with him behind them.

[rage2]

Ricardo wasn't unexpected. Force India wasn't either, they're usually pretty bad at high downforce tracks such as Barcelona and Silverstone, and excel at tracks that reward aero efficiency with lower df requirements such as Spa.

Ferrari was expected to drop down after they announced Friday that they are not bringing their big update to this race because it's not ready. Reading my prediction, I pretty much nailed it haha.

[DJ Lazy]

Originally posted by rage2
I've come to the conclusion that it's Button's fault for not able to setup a car properly, and relying on Hamilton when he was still on the team.


But all the hamilton haters will tell you Ham's no good at setting up a car... He's just a wannabe rapper with no technical skill.. ;)


Awesome to see HAM turn it around between Q2 and 3 and beat Nico to pole position yet again... You could clearly see the dismay on Nicos face while waiting for the post qualy photo. The mental game is now is FULL effect for the rest of the season! :thumbsup:

[phreezee]

The real story of the race is how dominant Red Bull still is over the rest of the field the way Vettel powered through everyone. The track suited them, but it's disappointing to see the other teams have really not progressed against RBR.

Brawn visited Ferrari, but denies it was for a professional reasons. And Ferrari basically offers Newey a blank cheque.

Button says Magnusson's inexperience is costing McLaren in regards to setup. Must be lots of pressure for him since I think it's uncharacteristic of him to point fingers.

Frustration and desperation sinking in.

[sidewaysD]

Just not working out for Seb.

[rage2]

Originally posted by phreezee
The real story of the race is how dominant Red Bull still is over the rest of the field the way Vettel powered through everyone. The track suited them, but it's disappointing to see the other teams have really not progressed against RBR.
This was a given. We knew before the race that Merc and RBR are up their on their own in regards to downforce. What's shocking is how much faster the Mercs were. I know Riccardo was held up by Bottas at the start, but still, 50 second gap to the winner. That Merc is fast everywhere, as long as Ham and Ros keeps their fighting clean, there's no reason they won't be able to win all races this year. I seriously doubt anyone can catch up to Merc's during in season upgrades. 1s a lap at Barcelona is pretty much a game over hand them the trophy now scenario.


Originally posted by phreezee
Button says Magnusson's inexperience is costing McLaren in regards to setup. Must be lots of pressure for him since I think it's uncharacteristic of him to point fingers.
:rofl:

As a McLaren fan, I now know how it feels to be an Oilers fan haha.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by sidewaysD
Just not working out for Seb.

Lol. He actually had a pretty amazing race to finish 4th.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2

This was a given. We knew before the race that Merc and RBR are up their on their own in regards to downforce. What's shocking is how much faster the Mercs were. I know Riccardo was held up by Bottas at the start, but still, 50 second gap to the winner. That Merc is fast everywhere, as long as Ham and Ros keeps their fighting clean, there's no reason they won't be able to win all races this year. I seriously doubt anyone can catch up to Merc's during in season upgrades. 1s a lap at Barcelona is pretty much a game over hand them the trophy now scenario.


:rofl:

As a McLaren fan, I now know how it feels to be an Oilers fan haha.

Nobody will touch them this year. The other teams can upgrade all they want, people forget that Mercedes is still upgrading as well, and they already have a massive headstart.

The only way someone will beat them is if they lose both of their cars in a race or some freak rainstorm during qualifying puts them back far enough on a track like Monaco. Even then, I wouldn't bet against them.

[rage2]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
Lol. He actually had a pretty amazing race to finish 4th.
To be fair, while the Mercs are miles ahead of everyone, the RBR's are miles ahead of everyone else at this high downforce track. It was easy pickings for Vettel.

Mercs +50s ahead of RBR (Hamilton vs Ricciardo), and RBRs are +30s ahead of the closest non Merc/RBR, which was Bottas in the Williams (Ricciardo vs Bottas) and +40s ahead of Ferrari (Ricciardo vs Alonso).

On the bright side, at least he was competitive this race, although it was hilarious seeing him having problems passing Kobayashi hahaha.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2

To be fair, while the Mercs are miles ahead of everyone, the RBR's are miles ahead of everyone else at this high downforce track. It was easy pickings for Vettel.

On the bright side, at least he was competitive this race, although it was hilarious seeing him having problems passing Kobayashi hahaha.

The Red Bulls definitely had a fast lap pace, but they are still way down on power to almost everyone other team, so he couldn't just flip the DRS switch and make easy passes. He actually had to do some pretty ridiculous last second outbraking, offline, corner passes.

[DJ Lazy]

I can already see that the new double points rule for the last race is going to ruin this years WDC.

Ham and Ros are going to be close all year I think (<50points difference by final race).. and one of them is gonna beat the other because of some bullshit unfair rule... I just don't see one of them building a 50 point lead over the other which is what both of them need to do to win the championship. Ham is definitely on a roll but needs to win 9 more races over ROS (if they keep putting in 1-2 finishes).


Double Point rule will ruin one of the best intra-team battle seasons since Senna-Prost IMO.

[rage2]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
The Red Bulls definitely had a fast lap pace, but they are still way down on power to almost everyone other team, so he couldn't just flip the DRS switch and make easy passes. He actually had to do some pretty ridiculous last second outbraking, offline, corner passes.
I see RBR's whining has worked on you haha. Renault has caught up significantly, the power gap is a lot closer this race than the previous 4.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnXYEbfIQAInxv8.jpg

The thing is, with Barcelona if you have a car with good df and efficiency, you WILL run lower trap speeds, but that gives you a lot more braking room than cars with lower downforce, hence "last second outbrakes". Even Kvyat ran 3rd fastest trap speeds in race trim.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2

I see RBR's whining has worked on you haha. Renault has caught up significantly, the power gap is a lot closer this race than the previous 4.


What's Red Bull whining about?

Are you trying to say that Red Bull is slower only because they need to run so much more downforce? I haven't read anything that says the Renault engine is anywhere near the Mercedes.

But thanks for posting the trap speeds proving that.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by DJ Lazy
I can already see that the new double points rule for the last race is going to ruin this years WDC.

Ham and Ros are going to be close all year I think (&lt;50points difference by final race).. and one of them is gonna beat the other because of some bullshit unfair rule... I just don't see one of them building a 50 point lead over the other which is what both of them need to do to win the championship. Ham is definitely on a roll but needs to win 9 more races over ROS (if they keep putting in 1-2 finishes).


Double Point rule will ruin one of the best intra-team battle seasons since Senna-Prost IMO.

It depends how you look at it. Do you want Hamilton to win out with 4 races still to go? Or do you want him to have to push all the way to the last race to win it?

I agree with your first point, it is a bad rule.

[phreezee]

^^ what he's saying is it doesn't matter what happens the rest of the season as they trade 1-2, the last race will decide the championship.

Reliability will be the key as we saw that it took Lewis 4 races to make up for 1 DNF. The only conceivable way there is going to be a 50 point gap for the last race is if one driver suffers 2 net DNFs.

Edit: Had to look it up, in 2013 Hamilton 1: Rosberg 3 DNFs.

[rage2]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
What's Red Bull whining about?
RBR's been whining about Renault being behind, while Renault has said they've made big gains and closed the gap quite a bit to Merc for this race, and that Spain and Monaco aren't power dependent tracks anyways.


Originally posted by CapnCrunch
Are you trying to say that Red Bull is slower only because they need to run so much more downforce? I haven't read anything that says the Renault engine is anywhere near the Mercedes.

But thanks for posting the trap speeds proving that.
Of course high downforce means more drag and slower trap speeds. Merc and RBR both setup for high downforce and high drag, hence they're in the middle on speed traps. Kvyat was right up there in 3rd for trap speeds in his STR Renault, it doesn't mean his power unit is more powerful than Mercs or RBRs lol.

[Gibson]

Just got around to watching this today. Decent race overall, especially the last few laps between Hamilton-Rosberg, Bottas-Vettel and Raikkonen-Alonso.

Also impressed with the drive Maldonado put in to jump from dead last to 14th, but I guess that just goes to show how bad those bottom teams are. He still crashed once though.

It was hilarious seeing Ricciardo smiling away up on the podium, while Hamilton looked kinda bored and Rosberg was just frustrated.

Some sick car control from Kimi:

http://giant.gfycat.com/NegligibleRemorsefulChinchilla.gif

[sidewaysD]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch


Lol. He actually had a pretty amazing race to finish 4th.

not good enough for him apparently.. lol what a guy.

But i can see his frustrations being the former world champion.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2

RBR's been whining about Renault being behind, while Renault has said they've made big gains and closed the gap quite a bit to Merc for this race, and that Spain and Monaco aren't power dependent tracks anyways.


Of course high downforce means more drag and slower trap speeds. Merc and RBR both setup for high downforce and high drag, hence they're in the middle on speed traps. Kvyat was right up there in 3rd for trap speeds in his STR Renault, it doesn't mean his power unit is more powerful than Mercs or RBRs lol.

Maybe I'm missing your point?

So in your mind, Redbull & Mercedes are equal on engine power and downforce?

Even though Mercedes can rip off 1+ second faster laps at will?

Even though Red Bull admitted that the Mercedes engines leave them in the dust on the straights?

Even though if you watched the race, you can see that for yourself? (Not just the Mercedes team cars)

So I have to assume that means that you believe Hamilton and Rosberg have both improved in the offseason so dramatically, perhaps due to the bond created during their collaboration on an underground released Hip Hop album?

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by Gibson


Some sick car control from Kimi:

http://giant.gfycat.com/NegligibleRemorsefulChinchilla.gif

I feel kind of bad for him. You can tell he's got way more pace than the car will give him.

[rage2]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
Maybe I'm missing your point?

So in your mind, Redbull &amp; Mercedes are equal on engine power and downforce?

Even though Mercedes can rip off 1+ second faster laps at will?
Ya definitely missing my point. What I'm saying is Renault is much closer in power to the Mercs now than they were at the start of the season. Mercs are ripping 1s a lap faster than RBR because of more DF, specifically, more efficiency at high DF levels. Meanwhile RBR won't admit to that and is making Renault the scapegoat.


Originally posted by CapnCrunch
Even though Red Bull admitted that the Mercedes engines leave them in the dust on the straights?

Even though if you watched the race, you can see that for yourself? (Not just the Mercedes team cars)
That's what I mean by RBR scapegoating Renault. Kvyat was leaving Mercs in the dust on the straights in his STR Renault!


Originally posted by CapnCrunch
So I have to assume that means that you believe Hamilton and Rosberg have both improved in the offseason so dramatically, perhaps due to the bond created during their collaboration on an underground released Hip Hop album?
I have that album on pre-order! :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
I feel kind of bad for him. You can tell he's got way more pace than the car will give him.
You mean he's overdriving the car? lol

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2

You mean he's overdriving the car? lol

Lol, yeah a bit.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2

Ya definitely missing my point. What I'm saying is Renault is much closer in power to the Mercs now than they were at the start of the season. Mercs are ripping 1s a lap faster than RBR because of more DF, specifically, more efficiency at high DF levels. Meanwhile RBR won't admit to that and is making Renault the scapegoat.


Well I don't think that's the case, but we each have our opinion.

I haven't read anything that hints at Mercedes gaining a 1 second aerodynamic edge over last year. Other than the smaller sidepods, but I doubt that's a second per lap.

[DJ Lazy]

Originally posted by phreezee
^^ what he's saying is it doesn't matter what happens the rest of the season as they trade 1-2, the last race will decide the championship.

Reliability will be the key as we saw that it took Lewis 4 races to make up for 1 DNF. The only conceivable way there is going to be a 50 point gap for the last race is if one driver suffers 2 net DNFs.

Edit: Had to look it up, in 2013 Hamilton 1: Rosberg 3 DNFs.



I may be wrong... it just dawned on me that I may not completely understand the "Double Points" rule... :rofl:

Is it double points for the winner only? or do all points paying positions get doubled... If is it the latter, then the championship leader would need a 15 point lead going into the last race to win the title if he comes in 2nd and the 2nd place guy comes in 1st. There is only 14 points between 1st and 2nd (50 vs 36)...

Now I'm just confused... :nut: lol

[ExtremeSi]

Double points for the winner only.

I don't think it's really "fair", but it will add some excitement and drama to the end of the season if the point spread is small enough.

[rage2]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
Well I don't think that's the case, but we each have our opinion.

I haven't read anything that hints at Mercedes gaining a 1 second aerodynamic edge over last year. Other than the smaller sidepods, but I doubt that's a second per lap.
I've been analyzing sector times and various trap speeds (including corner ones) to see that Mercs are definitely ahead of RBR in terms of downforce and efficiency since Race 1. There's much better analysis over at F1technical and autosport forums. Some of the guys there have the detailed sector times and speeds which breaks down to about 18 sectors per track.


Originally posted by ExtremeSi
Double points for the winner only.

I don't think it's really &quot;fair&quot;, but it will add some excitement and drama to the end of the season if the point spread is small enough.
It's double points to everyone in the last race. Think of it as 2 races with the exact same race results and points but in 1 race.

[ExtremeSi]

Originally posted by rage2

It's double points to everyone in the last race. Think of it as 2 races with the exact same race results and points but in 1 race.

Oh my bad. That seems weird. I thought it would make more sense for just the winner to get double points.

[rage2]

The whole double points thing doesn't make sense, period.

It's going to heavily punish anyone that DNF's the last race. With Ham and Ros so close in dominating machines, each 1-2 the winner only gains 7 points. I'm assuming Ham won't win 'em all, with Ros taking a few, so the last race the championship is still open if anyone is within 50 points of the leader.

[ganesh]

I am sure Merc will impose team orders pretty soon. The way things are progressing in the Merc camp I am sure it is going to blow up pretty soon. If LH wins another 3 races it will be curtains for ROS.

[phreezee]

^^ Niki says once all other teams are eliminated from contention, he expects all out warfare and will let them battle.

[phreezee]

Originally posted by DJ Lazy




I may be wrong... it just dawned on me that I may not completely understand the &quot;Double Points&quot; rule... :rofl:

Is it double points for the winner only? or do all points paying positions get doubled... If is it the latter, then the championship leader would need a 15 point lead going into the last race to win the title if he comes in 2nd and the 2nd place guy comes in 1st. There is only 14 points between 1st and 2nd (50 vs 36)...

Now I'm just confused... :nut: lol

Yeah double points for everyone, thus punishing anyone with reliability problems in the last race. You are correct about 14 points needed assuming the Mercs finish 1-2 in the last race. 50 points is the threshold for having it in the bag. I think it goes to the most wins in the event of a tie.