Is this a typical 'strategy' for Dealerships?

[Brent.ff]

I've been interested in a Tacoma for years, and have been doing a ton of research, and figured I'd go take a look at one today. I've never actually bought a car from a dealership, however I assisted my girlfriend when she was buying hers a few years ago.

Went for a test drive (wasn't really needed, I know I like them), and then went and sat down with the salesman. All good, seemed like a nice guy, until we sat down and he said "ok, so you'll buy today?", which put me off guard immediately.

He offered me 'employee pricing' of cost plus 3%, to which I asked 'ok, so how much is that'; to which he replied 'I can't tell you unless you'll buy it'.

Well, that got it off a bit on the wrong foot. Wouldn't tell me the price, so how can I say I would buy it?

He then asked me how much I'd want to put down, and how much approximately I'd want to pay a month. He leaves to go talk to the manager, then comes back and says 'yep we can do that amount a month with that down payment'. Yet won't tell me how many months or the financing rate, "oh you'd have to go talk to the financing department, you'd pay it off when it was paid off".

So I left.

So being a newbie to buying new, obviously not a great first encounter. I'll be going to a different dealership, and looking to deal with the manager directly instead of a minion.

Any other suggestions? Anyone on here work @ Toyota?

[roll_over]

Read this then you tell me. It's a bit long but worth it

http://www.wisebread.com/17-things-car-salesmen-dont-want-you-to-know


Read the link in number 8 "the four square"

[sr20s14zenki]

WTF! lol.
:nut:

[Black Gts]

South pointe? Figure out what it's worth and flat make an offer. I had the same issue, I told them I'm not worried about monthly payment as I know the ball park it'll be in, what's the damn price your selling it to me for. I think they do that so they can sell for msrp and just adjust term and monthly payment. I imagine this shot works on some people who only think of 89/bi weekly.

[ercchry]

Next time tell them you are a cash buyer... hate that shit... but it can be fun to fuck with them if you are good at math on the fly :rofl:

[Brent.ff]

CC, i park at the train station so just stopped on the way home

[Cos]

.

[Brent.ff]

Originally posted by roll_over
Read this then you tell me. It's a bit long but worth it

http://www.wisebread.com/17-things-car-salesmen-dont-want-you-to-know


Read the link in number 8 "the four square"

good article. thanks

[EK69]

Unhaggle.com run a report for the dealer cost and find out any factory incentives they have (carcostcanada gives the same report but in a different format I'm pretty sure)
Put in ur email and choose the option that says u don't want to be bothered by a salesman yet and do ur research

I went to look at a car once and I ran the report beforehand.
Told the salesman I was buying cash and he tried to get me into leasing first, then when I got annoyed and started looking for another salesman right in front of him he took me to the side and said he will give me 3k off and he's sorry. I said I know there's a factory cash incentive of 5k and he can stop the bullshit...he didn't know what to say.

[Brent.ff]

Do you still get the incentive if you do financing? I won't be doing cash.

Also, what is the kind of down payment most would be putting down on something like this? Is it worth it when they offer 1.9% at 60 mths?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[ExtraSlow]

My attitude with auto salespeople is that I need to be the aggressive asshole in the relationship. If they turn that up, I can turn it up higher.

Also, no matter what you are planning on doing, always start out by saying you are a cash buyer.

[TravisF79]

I know we have a 2010 Tacoma available at the dealership I work at.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Brent.ff
I've been interested in a Tacoma for years, and have been doing a ton of research, and figured I'd go take a look at one today. I've never actually bought a car from a dealership, however I assisted my girlfriend when she was buying hers a few years ago.

Went for a test drive (wasn't really needed, I know I like them), and then went and sat down with the salesman. All good, seemed like a nice guy, until we sat down and he said "ok, so you'll buy today?", which put me off guard immediately.

He offered me 'employee pricing' of cost plus 3%, to which I asked 'ok, so how much is that'; to which he replied 'I can't tell you unless you'll buy it'.

Well, that got it off a bit on the wrong foot. Wouldn't tell me the price, so how can I say I would buy it?

He then asked me how much I'd want to put down, and how much approximately I'd want to pay a month. He leaves to go talk to the manager, then comes back and says 'yep we can do that amount a month with that down payment'. Yet won't tell me how many months or the financing rate, "oh you'd have to go talk to the financing department, you'd pay it off when it was paid off".

So I left.

So being a newbie to buying new, obviously not a great first encounter. I'll be going to a different dealership, and looking to deal with the manager directly instead of a minion.

Any other suggestions? Anyone on here work @ Toyota?

Toyota has THE best website out of all makes in Canada. The fees on the site is what you pay. No hidden costs, or extra fees like almost all other companies do.

Cost + 3% is available to anyone at Toyota right now. If you're looking at a 2014 Toyota Tacoma Double Cab auto TRD it's around $36,000+fees and tax (website can spit out the exact numbers). Markup on that truck is around $3000 so cost plus 3% would be roughly $2,000 off (as per unhaggle). Of course reason he didn't tell you what the numbers are is because they will insist their cost is much higher aka they only have $1,500-$2,000 in room vs the $3,000 reported by unhaggle or CCC.

If you go talk to another manager go in prepared. Know what full price of truck is (from site). Bring copy of CCC or unhaggle, offer them a price you want to pay (cost plus $500/$1,000/$1,500, whatever you're happy with) and say you're ready to sign on the spot, no test drive, no bs. Usually they will work with you at that point.

[rizfarmer]

Lol

[Brent.ff]

Originally posted by Aleks


Toyota has THE best website out of all makes in Canada. The fees on the site is what you pay. No hidden costs, or extra fees like almost all other companies do.

Cost + 3% is available to anyone at Toyota right now. If you're looking at a 2014 Toyota Tacoma Double Cab auto TRD it's around $36,000+fees and tax (website can spit out the exact numbers). Markup on that truck is around $3000 so cost plus 3% would be roughly $2,000 off (as per unhaggle). Of course reason he didn't tell you what the numbers are is because they will insist their cost is much higher aka they only have $1,500-$2,000 in room vs the $3,000 reported by unhaggle or CCC.

If you go talk to another manager go in prepared. Know what full price of truck is (from site). Bring copy of CCC or unhaggle, offer them a price you want to pay (cost plus $500/$1,000/$1,500, whatever you're happy with) and say you're ready to sign on the spot, no test drive, no bs. Usually they will work with you at that point.

I get that, just was wierd the attitude of if you'll buy now, we'll tell you the price. How the hell would I know if I would buy then, If the price was never discussed.

Going to talk to Heninger tomorrow

[avishal26]

Originally posted by Brent.ff


He then asked me how much I'd want to put down, and how much approximately I'd want to pay a month. He leaves to go talk to the manager, then comes back and says 'yep we can do that amount a month with that down payment'. Yet won't tell me how many months or the financing rate, "oh you'd have to go talk to the financing department, you'd pay it off when it was paid off".

So I left.



This happened to me a Royal Oak Nissan - the sales woman didn't even print out on a piece of paper what the costs were.. She just said we can do approximately that much per month and work in the 'HID' upgrade I wanted on the pathfinder... so pretty soon after that I left. I like to see numbers on paper and if you can't print that out - which is really damn easy - then its not worth my time.

[redblack]

Originally posted by Brent.ff


I get that, just was wierd the attitude of if you'll buy now, we'll tell you the price. How the hell would I know if I would buy then, If the price was never discussed.

Going to talk to Heninger tomorrow

I was looking for a taco trd last year and pulled a CCC report. The rep for calgary was josh hynes at stampede Toyota. We went for a test drive, over the features of the truck etc etc.
I thought that I was going to get the same "new car high pressure" sales pitches from him but that never happened.

IIRC all he wanted was ~ 1k above the invoice price. In the end I didn't get the taco because I decided to go to a larger truck. So in my opinion, if you want a no BS salesman go talk to josh.

[spikerS]

When I bought mine, I told him I was shopping numbers and they gave me some for out the door pricing.

I then called about 7 dealerships asking if they had as good or better truck, as my dealer could not get me the flame blue color. Every one of them called me back and said they could not even match the price, and a few tried to give me some other incentives, but it wasn't what I was looking for.

That method worked really well for me. Told em what I wanted and I wanted out the door pricing and that I was going to shop the number. Cut out all the BS and I a sure I got the best deal I could.

[Black Gts]

Was it south pointe? You never answered. I bought used from there, and a buddy bought new. I think that's there game we both got prices we weren't getting elsewhere, don't write them off completely just make an actual offer and walk if need be. I wasn't a fan of the tactics and actually tried to leave twice but the pot sweetened, go to henniger and maybe call this salesman and tell him the price you found and tell him to beat it. I have no affiliation with South pointe (and hate the tactics) , but I think they have a new staff, and management you might be able to get a bit more just like there high pressure probably gets them a bit more.

[J.M.]

^ he said CC - Canyon Creek Toyota? Close to Canyon Meadows train station.

[Brent.ff]

ya it was canyon creek.

Went to Heninger today, waaaay better experience. Showed me the dealer cost (pretty well to the $ of Unhaggle), told me how much they want to make on it and to go from there. Waaaay better vibe. Didn't ask once about financing or trade ins.

i'll be buying from there i'd expect.

[spikerS]

"dealer cost" or "dealer Invoice" is such a lame tactic

I am surprised that people have not figured out that they can print these things off on demand to display whatever cost they want?

I actually caught one guy at Mazda doing it, and again when Codetrap and I went to check out a truck for him.

It is as shady as a tactic as telling you that there are 4 other people coming to look at that same vehicle later that afternoon, so you better put a deposit on it now!

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by spikerS
"dealer cost" or "dealer Invoice" is such a lame tactic

I am surprised that people have not figured out that they can print these things off on demand to display whatever cost they want?

I actually caught one guy at Mazda doing it, and again when Codetrap and I went to check out a truck for him.

It is as shady as a tactic as telling you that there are 4 other people coming to look at that same vehicle later that afternoon, so you better put a deposit on it now!


I swear to god, I am going to take my sock off, and put the lock from my locker in it.

YOU ARE GOING DOWN MOTHER FUCKER!

[spikerS]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE



I swear to god, I am going to take my sock off, and put the lock from my locker in it.

YOU ARE GOING DOWN MOTHER FUCKER!

HAHAHA! You are almost as good at stalking me as Baygirl!

[NoMoreG35]

Originally posted by Aleks


Toyota has THE best website out of all makes in Canada. The fees on the site is what you pay. No hidden costs, or extra fees like almost all other companies do.

Cost + 3% is available to anyone at Toyota right now. If you're looking at a 2014 Toyota Tacoma Double Cab auto TRD it's around $36,000+fees and tax (website can spit out the exact numbers). Markup on that truck is around $3000 so cost plus 3% would be roughly $2,000 off (as per unhaggle). Of course reason he didn't tell you what the numbers are is because they will insist their cost is much higher aka they only have $1,500-$2,000 in room vs the $3,000 reported by unhaggle or CCC.

If you go talk to another manager go in prepared. Know what full price of truck is (from site). Bring copy of CCC or unhaggle, offer them a price you want to pay (cost plus $500/$1,000/$1,500, whatever you're happy with) and say you're ready to sign on the spot, no test drive, no bs. Usually they will work with you at that point.

How do u figure that if the mark up is around $3000, they have around $3000 to play with?? Do they work for free?? Do you work for free?? :dunno:

[rizfarmer]

Originally posted by NoMoreG35


How do u figure that if the mark up is around $3000, they have around $3000 to play with?? Do they work for free?? Do you work for free?? :dunno:


Because, that's the information he found on unhaggle and ccc. Read the post you quoted. He's not asking anyone to work free, he's asking not to be treated like a moron when trying to hand over $30K on a discretionary purchase.

[NoMoreG35]

I did read it. If the mark up is $3000, and they have $1500-2000 to play with, that's fair, isn't it?? But yes I do agree, if I don't get a price, just monthly payments, I'd walk away. That's what many sales try to lure people into. Unfortunately, it happens a lot :nut:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by NoMoreG35
I did read it. If the mark up is $3000, and they have $1500-2000 to play with, that's fair, isn't it?? But yes I do agree, if I don't get a price, just monthly payments, I'd walk away. That's what many sales try to lure people into. Unfortunately, it happens a lot :nut:

I said if they have a 3,000 in markup, he could go offer cost plus 500, 1,000 or 1,500 whatever he deems fair. I didn't say to go offer cost + 0 which would mean no profit for them. If you're fair to dealer most will be fair to you.

[dubhead]

My favourite tactic so far was from Edmonton BMW making the lowest payment in my range work. He brings over the paperwork and says look at how awesome that is, that's exactly what you want to to pay, sign right there and the car is yours. Naturally he made no mention of the 20,000 I would still owe at the end of the loan, thanks but no thanks.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by dubhead
My favourite tactic so far was from Edmonton BMW making the lowest payment in my range work. He brings over the paperwork and says look at how awesome that is, that's exactly what you want to to pay, sign right there and the car is yours. Naturally he made no mention of the 20,000 I would still owe at the end of the loan, thanks but no thanks.

Yeah the future value financing / balloon payment is the biggest piece of bs. Someone at work stupidly did this, paid their car for 5 years and thought they were finally done only to find a 7k$ payment remaining at the end, he couldn't afford to pay it and ended up trading it in to them (even stupider) and they gave him 8k for it (value was worth more like 12-14k) and got conned into doing it all over again to keep his payments the same.

[NoMoreG35]

Balloon payment financing only makes sense if the interest rate is low, or you couldn't get approved on a regular financing. Ya it's stupid, but some people want things more than what they can afford ;)
Still not as bad as sub-prime's, but people do that as well LOL. Why do you think that they have to get sub-prime loans in the first place? :poosie:

[faiz999]

Originally posted by NoMoreG35
Balloon payment financing only makes sense if the interest rate is low, or you couldn't get approved on a regular financing. Ya it's stupid, but some people want things more than what they can afford ;)
Still not as bad as sub-prime's, but people do that as well LOL. Why do you think that they have to get sub-prime loans in the first place? :poosie:

i think balloon payments are a good strategy if you're planning on holding the car for the entire duration of the loan, which sometimes is the case, but i agree with most of what you posted.

[dubhead]

Originally posted by faiz999


i think balloon payments are a good strategy if you're planning on holding the car for the entire duration of the loan, which sometimes is the case, but i agree with most of what you posted.

I'm sure there are strategies and situations where one could make it work in your favour, it was more the dealer skipping over the little detail of a 20k ballon payment that seemed shady to me

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by faiz999


i think balloon payments are a good strategy if you're planning on holding the car for the entire duration of the loan, which sometimes is the case, but i agree with most of what you posted.

How would that be a good strategy? You're paying it off slower and thus more interest (unless you get super low interest rate which I doubt)

Only way I can see the balloon payment being advantageous is after a year or two you get some sucker to take over the payments. But then they just get screwed over.

[89s1]

Originally posted by pheoxs


How would that be a good strategy? You're paying it off slower and thus more interest (unless you get super low interest rate which I doubt)


The last car we bought for the wife (sonata) was 0% Interest financing, so low rates do exixt...

[guessboi]

My strategy is negotiate out the door price incl tax -> pay cash = done deal. :bigpimp:

[jdmXSI]

Imo, balloon payments are only a good idea if you want to keep you payments lower than a straight finance and actually advance your payments as most of them are open ended loans. If you had a .9% finance vs.9% balloon, I would always try and steer for the straight finance because you are guaranteed the rate for the term unlike the balloon where there refinance is likely going to be 5-6%.

[redbaron303]

Just my 2 cents - having worked in the industry for many years, like a realtor or any other commissioned based sales person gross profit is how the dealer and sales people make their living.

It's amazing and frankly offensive how many people EXPECT that a dealer should sell for below their cost, bend over and take it with sandpaper.

Do you go to Walmart, Holt Renfrew, Safeway, IGA, whatever and demand they sell you product X below their cost or at dead cost? There's a cost to doing business... pay the price! It's no different than when someone comes to do business with you and your firm... if you're a marginalized employee you probably don't give two shits, but if you own the firm or have any stake in it you will understand what I mean.

That said, as a consumer I expect a fair deal. With vehicles being the highest depreciating asset we will purchase I almost feel preowned is the best way to go to alleviate some of our initial loss.

I feel that this tactic originally discussed, is pushy, arrogant, and below the consumer - "if you buy I'll tell you the price" - EFF that.

I find it equally offensive for the salesperson to try and back the consumer into a corner and "force" them to buy "now" or the deal vanishes. Unfortunately we all know as sales people if we give you our best deal without commitment, you will take the numbers and go shopping to see if it can be beat ... Additional to this the advent of the internet and consumers doing their due diligence has allowed them to know more than they should - now expecting to pay less.

There's two sides to a coin - be fair to your sales person, if they've done a good job and have met your expectations remember this is how they make their living and feed their families - don't fuck them (besides screw the sales people and it translates into word of mouth about their experience with you as a customer and that word goes through all departments pretty quick). This is no different than the sales person being fair to their client and how if they're not (or hopefully if they are = referrals) word of mouth will carry about their experience.



Sorry - long rant, and a bit of info. Take it for what it's worth... but we the consumer always have an option as does the dealer - there's always another customer just like there's always another product for us.

PS - average dealer margin is 6% on most import vehicles over their cost so giving cost plus 3% is them splitting the profit with you and is more than a fair deal ------- IF they are selling off actual invoice and not MSRP window sticker. With my fleet account for Dodge and BMW I've seen a lot of invoices and the margins in a lot of cases aren't great.





** Just on a side for those car shopping at dealers - my suggestion is to go the manufacturer website and build/price your vehicle with the options you want, it's pretty accurate for MSRP. However, most cases this doesn't include freight/pdi/dealer fees/amvic fees/additional options/etc. But a dealer that has the original window sticker in the window isn't likely to FUCK you terribly. A dealer that hides or takes away the OEM window sticker (which is illegal according to AMVIC) is likely going to do so and try to get way more out of you than you should pay! I've seen it done so many time especially on the "East Side" .... I've also seen modified window stickers that look like manufacturer ones with "regional adjustments" or other things on them where a dealer will add $5,000 to msrp and when it comes time to evaluate trades or give you a deal they have more room to work with - for the uneducated client.


:drama:

[LOLzilla]

I'd stop listening to most advice of haggling posted here and just run a carcostcanada report. In all but Audi's and Volvo's I've received a call from a dealership after running the report offering 2% over cost. Total effort? Maybe 30 minutes.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by redbaron303
Just my 2 cents - having worked in the industry for many years, like a realtor or any other commissioned based sales person gross profit is how the dealer and sales people make their living.

It's amazing and frankly offensive how many people EXPECT that a dealer should sell for below their cost, bend over and take it with sandpaper.

Do you go to Walmart, Holt Renfrew, Safeway, IGA, whatever and demand they sell you product X below their cost or at dead cost? There's a cost to doing business... pay the price! It's no different than when someone comes to do business with you and your firm... if you're a marginalized employee you probably don't give two shits, but if you own the firm or have any stake in it you will understand what I mean.

That said, as a consumer I expect a fair deal. With vehicles being the highest depreciating asset we will purchase I almost feel preowned is the best way to go to alleviate some of our initial loss.

I feel that this tactic originally discussed, is pushy, arrogant, and below the consumer - "if you buy I'll tell you the price" - EFF that.

I find it equally offensive for the salesperson to try and back the consumer into a corner and "force" them to buy "now" or the deal vanishes. Unfortunately we all know as sales people if we give you our best deal without commitment, you will take the numbers and go shopping to see if it can be beat ... Additional to this the advent of the internet and consumers doing their due diligence has allowed them to know more than they should - now expecting to pay less.

There's two sides to a coin - be fair to your sales person, if they've done a good job and have met your expectations remember this is how they make their living and feed their families - don't fuck them (besides screw the sales people and it translates into word of mouth about their experience with you as a customer and that word goes through all departments pretty quick). This is no different than the sales person being fair to their client and how if they're not (or hopefully if they are = referrals) word of mouth will carry about their experience.



Sorry - long rant, and a bit of info. Take it for what it's worth... but we the consumer always have an option as does the dealer - there's always another customer just like there's always another product for us.

PS - average dealer margin is 6% on most import vehicles over their cost so giving cost plus 3% is them splitting the profit with you and is more than a fair deal ------- IF they are selling off actual invoice and not MSRP window sticker. With my fleet account for Dodge and BMW I've seen a lot of invoices and the margins in a lot of cases aren't great.





** Just on a side for those car shopping at dealers - my suggestion is to go the manufacturer website and build/price your vehicle with the options you want, it's pretty accurate for MSRP. However, most cases this doesn't include freight/pdi/dealer fees/amvic fees/additional options/etc. But a dealer that has the original window sticker in the window isn't likely to FUCK you terribly. A dealer that hides or takes away the OEM window sticker (which is illegal according to AMVIC) is likely going to do so and try to get way more out of you than you should pay! I've seen it done so many time especially on the "East Side" .... I've also seen modified window stickers that look like manufacturer ones with "regional adjustments" or other things on them where a dealer will add $5,000 to msrp and when it comes time to evaluate trades or give you a deal they have more room to work with - for the uneducated client.


:drama:

Whatever. Dealers will screw anyone they can without a second thought, why should a customer not try and save every penny they can. A car purchase is 90% of the time over $30,000, and haggling can save THOUSANDS!

Dealers get incentives and rebates from the factory for selling X number of vehicles a week, a month, a cycle, whatever, so don't try and peddle that they are only going to get paid by the customer.

At Walmart, etc, if you manage to haggle, you are going to save a couple bucks, maybe $50 on a bigger ticket item, where if you can at a dealer, the savings can be insane.

And remember, the dealer isn't going to sell it if they are not going to make money, so don't try peddling the "taking food from my kids mouth" bit. If they were not making a living selling cars, they would switch jobs pretty quick.

[redbaron303]

@ spikerS

Saving a few bucks every time you go out because you're a cheap-wad and haggling at Walmart can save you thousands in the long run. No different than buying a car. It's about minimizing markup and margin so you pay less in either case. The purchase is totally irrelevant it's the end result that every consumer wants on whatever they purchase.

What consumer wants to pay more?

I'm not saying that a client shouldn't negotiate - in fact you should - if you don't you're a moron. But asking the dealer and/or sales person to work for free regardless of industry is insulting and asinine IMO. I'm saying respect a good deal when it's given to you and realize that we all work for a living regardless of which side of the table you're on.

If the margin is 6% profit, is a dealer not giving you a fair deal at 3% --- you're paying 3% over cost and they're losing 3% of potential profit. You are also entitled to save on any interest rates or rebates that the dealer may give you over and above that.... would you really want to be "that guy" who is a total asshole and barter for the remaining 3% ????

spikerS - what do you do for a living? I'm curious - you have a strong tone... I'm curious to know your profession of choice is...

[Cos]

.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by redbaron303
@ spikerS

Saving a few bucks every time you go out because you're a cheap-wad and haggling at Walmart can save you thousands in the long run. No different than buying a car. It's about minimizing markup and margin so you pay less in either case. The purchase is totally irrelevant it's the end result that every consumer wants on whatever they purchase.

What consumer wants to pay more?

I'm not saying that a client shouldn't negotiate - in fact you should - if you don't you're a moron. But asking the dealer and/or sales person to work for free regardless of industry is insulting and asinine IMO. I'm saying respect a good deal when it's given to you and realize that we all work for a living regardless of which side of the table you're on.

If the margin is 6% profit, is a dealer not giving you a fair deal at 3% --- you're paying 3% over cost and they're losing 3% of potential profit. You are also entitled to save on any interest rates or rebates that the dealer may give you over and above that.... would you really want to be "that guy" who is a total asshole and barter for the remaining 3% ????

spikerS - what do you do for a living? I'm curious - you have a strong tone... I'm curious to know your profession of choice is...

I will start from the end and work backwards.

I am part of the Network Operations for a Telco.

What you are saying is that a customer should not try and keep money in their pocket, and just give it up because the dealer says it is a "fair deal"

It is not being a cheap ass tight wad. It is being smart with your money. Yes, if you haggle for a dollar on every purchase, you will save $3000 over the course of 3000 purchases. But I can tell you, that MANY times, a dealer has come to me and said this in the final and lowest price, only to haggle off another 2 or 3k before buying. And I saved that in ONE purchase. Guess what. The dealer STILL made money, and no kids starved.

A good friend of mine recently bought a new truck, and purchased it below cost. Want to know how? The dealer needed to sell a couple more trucks to meet their weekly quota to get the rebate incentive from the factory. Sure they may have lost $3k on the truck, but they made back $10k for selling X number of trucks. Was my friend wrong, or being cheap for working out that deal?

Plain and simple, NO.

Every person works hard for their money, and every business, charity, scammer, whatever works equally as hard to get it out of your pocket. If you don't care, you money is gone more quickly. Or, you can be smart, and find ways to make it last longer or get more for the dollar.

I mean, if you're crazy rich and $3k is nothing to you, then yeah, throw it up in the air and walk away, but I am still going to tease you over how I bought the exact same vehicle for $3k less than you from my all inclusive resort in mexico.

[redbaron303]

Originally posted by Cos



The best good sales guys I've dealt with deal with selling a car like they are selling a 2x4 at home depot. Dont nickle and dime. Just 'this is the price' take it or not because I KNOW they can't do better. I've checked.

This is the best way for us to do business. Again a customer like you respects a good deal when it's brought to them. I like to ask what it will take to earn someones business on the product I'm selling - if their expectation is reasonable and realistic I'll acknowledge that, if not I'll tell them so. I really like when a customer is direct and knows what they want and how much they want to pay for it. That can help set the tone and allow me to know if they're realistic or a little overboard.... "I want the top model for the advertised price of the base model after rebates" - over board...

And the comparison can be made - for a safeway or walmart or whatever. I've asked for discounts on the stupidest things and have received them - so I may have bought my banana for less than you at some point in time. Also what about sales - it's a cost savings to the consumer and a fluctuation in the asking price promoted by the store itself - the bay is notorious for this with their sales and bay days and stuff they've bred a type of consumer that "will wait for the sale" if it's not the price they want now. It's all relative but the result is the same - consumer paying less and the mentality that there is a perceived deal in play.

[yellowGTS]

I think the main question is what has made society feel there is a need to negotiate and demand lower prices on select products, but not all products.

If one were to travel to another country, the ability to barter for the purchase price of a banana is normal, yet when we walk into Safeway we just pay the posted price. Does this mean there is more or less profit associated with each item? I know for a fact that some grocery items carry a profit margin over 30%

The auto industry has not changed in over 80 years, yet when a company tries to move away from the barter model, their success is limited - Toyota tried this about 10 years ago with "Access Pricing". Then in contrast Tesla has been very successful with having an online buying experience and no sales staff, only advisors or consultants.

[FraserB]

If the car industry was honest and didn't actively try to screw their customers as part of normal business operations, it would probably be different.

Instead, a lot of salesmen rely on people's inability to think in high stress situations and intentionally mislead and confuse them by tossing stacks and stacks of numbers at them, then lying and saying that you need a decision NOW.

I'd love to be able to buy a car online. I can educate myself on any vehicle better than a dealership employee can, I'll pay less because there is very limited overhead and I don't have to get the hard sell by 4 different people (all of which will lie to me in some form).

[Sugarphreak]

...

[redbaron303]

:-)

[cherpintow]

What would be the effects of having set prices on cars? Of course there are options and add ons but those also have their price tags. More people would feel like they are getting a deal and the whole purchasing experience would be improved. It just seems so odd that 2 people can pay a different amount for the same car...

[redbaron303]

Sugarphreak --- thanks, I ramble too much. Apologies about that, but yes I think you said what I want in 20 words or less..... mostly. :-)

[Mitsu3000gt]

I have very little sympathy for dealers, after sitting through dozens of extremely shady tactics, as their "lowest possible" price drops another 5 times over the course of wasting everyone's time for 2 hours. Don't even get me started on the protection packages they chomp at the bit to sell to uninformed customers. $350 "admin" fees are common as well. With dealer kickbacks and everything else, they won't sell you a car if they aren't making money on it, so I see nothing wrong with trying to get the lowest possible price.

[yellowGTS]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I have very little sympathy for dealers, after sitting through dozens of extremely shady tactics, as their "lowest possible" price drops another 5 times over the course of wasting everyone's time for 2 hours. Don't even get me started on the protection packages they chomp at the bit to sell to uninformed customers. $350 "admin" fees are common as well. With dealer kickbacks and everything else, they won't sell you a car if they aren't making money on it, so I see nothing wrong with trying to get the lowest possible price.


So why don't you try to do the same thing when you pick up your next case of beer.

[faiz999]

made some mistakes mentioned in this thread.

i wasnt firm on my price, i gave in too quickly and i basically "lost" the negotiations in my mind.

however, with that expensive first lesson, im more confident going forward on how to approach buying a car and basically sticking to my plan, which i didnt do the first time around.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by yellowGTS



So why don't you try to do the same thing when you pick up your next case of beer.

Because the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable, and the liquor store owner isn't trying to bend me over every chance he gets.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Because the two scenarios aren't even remotely comparable, and the liquor store owner isn't trying to bend me over every chance he gets.

Do you know that? Or think it because margins and costs on cars are so readily available?

I'm assuming you get great deals on gasoline....

[Sugarphreak]

...

[redbaron303]

Best advice from faiz999 - have a plan and stick to it! Also Know your budget and stick to it.

If you get caught up in the moment, the excitement and such - it all goes out the window. Take a step back, breathe and re-evaluate what you have in front of you. If you need a day to make a decision - take a day. If you need to discuss with your mom, dad, wife, husband, dog ... do it and then make the decision (in fact bring them with you so you're not wasting your time nor the salespersons twice by having to bring them the second time).


Ok so something that hasn't been mentioned unless I haven't read it here or misread it.

Trade in Value - remember searching kijiji and canada trader to see what a car is listed for doesn't mean that's what you're getting. At the dealer level they have to recondition the car and prep it for sale and inspect it (if they're amvic licensed) - and the condition of your car will devalue itself - bald tires, cracked windows, scratches, damage, bad car proof claim, etc -- no dealer in their right mind will give you an upfront trade value before finding you a car to replace yours with. They will then do trade and sale of the new car as part of the deal and show you an out the door price/payment as requested. So be prepared to put some effort into negotiating trade value too but make sure you understand how much you're getting for the trade, if it's inflated with the rebate and discounts given on the new car and they're showing msrp for the sale price (new car insurance prefers this) or if they're giving you wholesale for your trade and discounting the new car on paper - the end number should work out the same.

Do a bit of homework, check resale places and see what the same year, make and model with similar options and KM are selling for. Check Canadian black book online and it will give you an idea of what the dealer will be looking at and what you should be expecting.

Know your buyout on the loan if you have one to the dollar and the per Diem, know the history of your trade, know that if you just had it in for service and it looks flawless but needs a 4 wheel drive transfer case - the appraiser knows that as he's talked to the service department if the salesman has done his job.... and make sure your trade is CLEAN!!! You're only getting top dollar if you present it to the dealership in the best condition! The less work they perceive needs to be done, the more you get.

*The dealer doesn't always WANT your trade, sometimes you have an oddity or high mileage ride that will sit on their lot for days or they have to send to a wholesaler so they will low ball you with an offer simply because they don't want your car but are forced to work with it. US and out of country cars usually fall into this category too!


Even as a salesperson, this frustrated me the most because of unrealistic client expectations and some trade value issues that I couldn't overcome :-(

[yellowGTS]

Originally posted by redbaron303
Best advice from faiz999 - have a plan and stick to it! Also Know your budget and stick to it.

If you get caught up in the moment, the excitement and such - it all goes out the window. Take a step back, breathe and re-evaluate what you have in front of you. If you need a day to make a decision - take a day. If you need to discuss with your mom, dad, wife, husband, dog ... do it and then make the decision (in fact bring them with you so you're not wasting your time nor the salespersons twice by having to bring them the second time).


Ok so something that hasn't been mentioned unless I haven't read it here or misread it.

Trade in Value - remember searching kijiji and canada trader to see what a car is listed for doesn't mean that's what you're getting. At the dealer level they have to recondition the car and prep it for sale and inspect it (if they're amvic licensed) - and the condition of your car will devalue itself - bald tires, cracked windows, scratches, damage, bad car proof claim, etc -- no dealer in their right mind will give you an upfront trade value before finding you a car to replace yours with. They will then do trade and sale of the new car as part of the deal and show you an out the door price/payment as requested. So be prepared to put some effort into negotiating trade value too but make sure you understand how much you're getting for the trade, if it's inflated with the rebate and discounts given on the new car and they're showing msrp for the sale price (new car insurance prefers this) or if they're giving you wholesale for your trade and discounting the new car on paper - the end number should work out the same.

Do a bit of homework, check resale places and see what the same year, make and model with similar options and KM are selling for. Check Canadian black book online and it will give you an idea of what the dealer will be looking at and what you should be expecting.

Know your buyout on the loan if you have one to the dollar and the per Diem, know the history of your trade, know that if you just had it in for service and it looks flawless but needs a 4 wheel drive transfer case - the appraiser knows that as he's talked to the service department if the salesman has done his job.... and make sure your trade is CLEAN!!! You're only getting top dollar if you present it to the dealership in the best condition! The less work they perceive needs to be done, the more you get.

*The dealer doesn't always WANT your trade, sometimes you have an oddity or high mileage ride that will sit on their lot for days or they have to send to a wholesaler so they will low ball you with an offer simply because they don't want your car but are forced to work with it. US and out of country cars usually fall into this category too!


Even as a salesperson, this frustrated me the most because of unrealistic client expectations and some trade value issues that I couldn't overcome :-(


+1

Trade value is not the same as retail value

[ExtraSlow]

Also sometime the dealership really does want your trade. Last time I bought new, I specifically said Iw as keepign the car, not trading it in. Worked out a great deal and only asked about the trade in as an afterthought. Not only did they offer me MORE than i could sell for privately, but they increased that offer before I hended over the keys the next week. Apparently that was a very in-demand car, even with some body trim loose and a windsheild that was cracked.

That was proabbly not typical, but it was helpful for sure.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
...minus the business department of course; everytime I declined one of the overpriced extras I got:

"well if it was my car, I sure wouldn't want to risk getting rock chips all over the hood"........
"well if it was my car, I would want to protect the interior"........
"well if it was my car, I would totally get the extra coverage pacakage"......

Well... it isn't your car, so fuck off already. What a nightmare fest that was. I should mention, this is every dealership and not something unique to Audi. I am developing a serious hatred for business departments at these places.
What's funny is that they make you run through that gauntlet of bullshit even if you are paying cash for the car. It's easier if you already have an appointment for Shadow tint and can show them the quote . . . .

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


Do you know that? Or think it because margins and costs on cars are so readily available?

I'm assuming you get great deals on gasoline....

Sorry if I wasn't more clear, but I really don't think you can compare buying a $20 case of beer to a $30,000+ car in very many ways. I don't have to do weeks of research, and deal with 3 hours of bullshit sales games to get 3% off of my beer.

I'm sure the margins on liquor and gasoline are plenty high, but there is far less transparency and at least at the consumer end, no shady or high pressure tactics.

The only point I was trying to make was not to feel bad for the dealer if you got a smokin' deal on a car, they most definitely would not have sold it to you unless it benefited them somehow, and would have been happy to pressure you into paying $1000 for their $100 protection package.

[redbaron303]

Extraslow -- yes that is pretty rare, but I've seen it happen because we have a client who is hot or know that it will sell super well. :-) That's wicked for you!!! you're one of the 1% in the trade in scenario --- most people don't get their value in a trade because of how they roll negative equity into each deal over years. Sadly they confuse value of the car for their loan buyout --- two separate things. But it's nice to hear someone getting a value they like! (I will never have that happen, I'm 60-75k annually so until high mileage vehicles are in...).

Also for your other comment - the loan insurance and extended warranty and pro packs I believe they have a legal or legal-ish responsibility to present in full even if you're declining it - then there's no liability issues after with the client saying "I wasn't told about that" which is also why you have to initial the decline and that it was offered on the BOS at most competent dealerships.

PS - if anyone with a BMW is debating the extended warranty --- HIGHLY recommend it, worth every penny. I've had amazing results with BMW warranty and them going the extra mile. I took it because I drive so much and wear out the stock warranty in 1-2 years on pretty much all rides out there.

[Cos]

.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[dubhead]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Sorry if I wasn't more clear, but I really don't think you can compare buying a $20 case of beer to a $30,000+ car in very many ways. I don't have to do weeks of research, and deal with 3 hours of bullshit sales games to get 3% off of my beer.

I'm sure the margins on liquor and gasoline are plenty high, but there is far less transparency and at least at the consumer end, no shady or high pressure tactics.

The only point I was trying to make was not to feel bad for the dealer if you got a smokin' deal on a car, they most definitely would not have sold it to you unless it benefited them somehow, and would have been happy to pressure you into paying $1000 for their $100 protection package.

There is also a Liquor store on every corner fighting for your business so it's in their best interest to give you the best deal possible to keep you from going to the next guy, car dealer selection is usually a lot more limited especially with luxury brands.

[Brent.ff]

Originally posted by dubhead


There is also a Liquor store on every corner fighting for your business so it's in their best interest to give you the best deal possible to keep you from going to the next guy, car dealer selection is usually a lot more limited especially with luxury brands.

It's also likely some 20 year old who works part time there behind the counter. Absolutely no way they're going to give anyone any wrangle room. Why would they?

[redbaron303]

Originally posted by Cos
The people who work as a salesman at a dealer are pretty obvious in this thread. LOL LOL if this is directed to me - I think I was pretty transparent in saying things like "when I used to sell cars" or "having been a part of this business for many years" indicating that i was a car salesman and in the industry.
I think if we're on this forum were all enthusiasts or into cars in some way. Some of us sell cars and or parts and others of us buy them. We all have some knowledge of the industry and what's what. But don't hate on the people working in the industry because there would be no one to sell you a car, service it, mod it, etc ... And we're allowed to make our living same as anyone else and earn a profit. I just wish more ppl did it respectfully so we all wouldn't be labeled with the same bad wrap.

But for now I've moved on to a different industry at the distribution level and B2B is so much better than B2Consumer.

[bignerd]

Originally posted by redbaron303
If you need a day to make a decision - take a day. If you need to discuss with your mom, dad, wife, husband, dog ... do it and then make the decision (in fact bring them with you so you're not wasting your time nor the salespersons twice by having to bring them the second time).




I prefer leaving wife/husband/mom/dad/dog out in the car or at home so I can play the same "get up and go discuss with someone else" or "make a phone call" games as the dealers do :) and get up and leave their office.

[Cos]

.

[ExtraSlow]

I agree that the auto industry is using a unique model, and in my opinion, it's not going to last that long. Something will disrupt it. Let's be honest, for most brands, ther are very few option packages, and the pricing could be very transparent. Someone will figure out a way to sell more cars with fewer hassles and fewer sales staff, and those people will make good money on lower margin/higher volume.

I do think the consumers are partly to blame, if we're assigning blame, for the current situation. Far too many people don't treat these pruchases sseriously. They do zero research, and take zero responsibility for the financial transaction. it's a pretty childish attitude.

[Brent.ff]

friend saw this yesterday on his way home...that's inspiring

[Brent.ff]

bah didn't upload. try this one

[Sugarphreak]

...

[sidewaysD]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
:rofl:

Heninger is already on my list of places not to shop due to poor customer service along with Valentine Volvo and Advantage Ford.


I wonder what is wrong with the truck?


1- out of a certain production #= Lemons.

Really.. no car manufacturer is immune to a defective car of some sort.

I am guessing its a lemon with various problems (lemon stickers)

[Mitsu3000gt]

I wonder what the story on that truck is. Everyone makes the odd lemon, but they also have the option to make it right for the customer. Seems like this guy is pretty upset haha.

[sidewaysD]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I wonder what the story on that truck is. Everyone makes the odd lemon, but they also have the option to make it right for the customer. Seems like this guy is pretty upset haha.


it wouldn't surprise me if the dealership failed to class this truck as a "lemon" and tell the owner to pound sand, and call "Toyota Canada".

Technically, (in the states anyway) They do have a Lemon law protecting consumers.