Fighting a $250 transit ticket?

[GREENBOY]

Anyone ever fought a 'fail to pay' transit ticket? I got a $250 today and plan to take the court date and fight it. Just wondered if anyone had done this successfully or been in a similar situation?

I only recently started using transit. I've been buying a $30 book of tickets and put one in the bus that takes me to the c-train station in the morning. Then on the way home I've been putting a fresh ticket in the bus that takes me home from the c-train station. Apparently I should have been validating the return home ticket at a machine on the c-train platform downtown before starting the journey. Wasn't aware I needed to do this and never been stopped before in the few weeks I've been riding the train and bus to work. They still get paid every journey I make. I use the red tickets every journey I make (you obviously can't use the bus without paying) - but as I found out today, not in the order I'm supposed to. I tried explaining this to the peace officer and showed him my torn off ticket for that journey ready to drop into the cash/ticket box on the bus and showed him my book of tickets and home address to show I obviously have to take the bus home. He was a dick about it (no surprises there) and gave me a ticket for 'fail to pay'.

What's the verdict?

[kaput]

.

[J-D]

You're probably SOL, but if you have the spare time you can try and fight it.

I got one a few years back when my U-Pass had expired for a day... went to the court house and the ticket was never filed. :bigpimp:

[kvg]

That's a weak excuse and an $250 lesson :closed:

[PeterGTiR]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

$250 lesson for you, my friend.

[GREENBOY]

My argument is I had a ticket in my hand and a book of tickets in my pocket. These fail to pay tickets are supposed to be for deadbeats who don't pay to ride transit, and that's not me. Just seems harsh to give a $250 ticket to someone who pays every day twice a day on a technicality. Obviously, I'm sore about it!

[Cos]

.

[speedog]

Originally posted by GREENBOY
My argument is I had a ticket in my hand and a book of tickets in my pocket. These fail to pay tickets are supposed to be for deadbeats who don't pay to ride transit, and that's not me. Just seems harsh to give a $250 ticket to someone who pays every day twice a day on a technicality. Obviously, I'm sore about it!
I shouldn't have been given this ticket. I should've got the same Pizza Hut deal as everyone else. Fuck, why is it that no one else gets screwed as much a me? :cry:

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by GREENBOY
These fail to pay tickets are supposed to be for deadbeats who don't pay to ride transit

Exactly right, and up until you validated your ticket you were that deadbeat.

I'm guessing the Officer has heard your excuse, and a thousand similar excuses. The end result is that ignorance isn't a defence, you just learned a $250 lesson. Unless the officer fails to file you're SOL, personally my time is far to valuable to even bother fighting a ticket I have next to zero chance of getting out of.

[GREENBOY]

Ha ha. All good. I wouldn't feel screwed at all if I was caught not paying, but this isn't that.

As for not validating, I have to put the ticket in the bus to get home at the end of my train journey, so have to use a ticket regardless if I validate or not.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by GREENBOY
Ha ha. All good. I wouldn't feel screwed at all if I was caught not paying, but this isn't that.

As for not validating, I have to put the ticket in the bus to get home at the end of my train journey, so have to use a ticket regardless if I validate or not.

If you don't validate before you get on, then you are indeed not paying to ride the train.

What did you think people do when they don't need a bus after a train ride?

[J-D]

Originally posted by GREENBOY
Ha ha. All good. I wouldn't feel screwed at all if I was caught not paying, but this isn't that.

As for not validating, I have to put the ticket in the bus to get home at the end of my train journey, so have to use a ticket regardless if I validate or not.

It's not up to the officer to validate where your destination is, though. It sucks but there's not really much of an alternative.

[ReflexFX]

How were you not aware you needed a validated ticket before getting on the train? There are signs everywhere! Weak excuse man.

[blitz]

Originally posted by GREENBOY
Ha ha. All good. I wouldn't feel screwed at all if I was caught not paying, but this isn't that.

As for not validating, I have to put the ticket in the bus to get home at the end of my train journey, so have to use a ticket regardless if I validate or not.

You have no way to prove that you don't do park and ride once you get to the c-train station (or walk home for that matter), so the "I pay for the bus after" excuse isn't going to work.

You deserve the fine and there is no way that you'll get out of it.

[ZenOps]

Busted!

I used to play change coins lotto with the ticket dispenser, it was a lot easier back when it was $2.75

IE: Now at $3, it would probably work with 8 dimes and then three loonies, depending on the way the machine calculates it.

[theken]

If your using 2 tickets a day. Why not a pass? Then no validating

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by theken
If your using 2 tickets a day. Why not a pass? Then no validating

May be he is not committed to transit yet?

Sorry OP, there is no excuse. This is black and white.

[Euro838]

Since no one here has answered your question, why don't you go and fight it and then report the results back to us? I think it would be useful information for those that come across these "ignorance" situations.

You may be surprised of the results. For example, when one goes to fight a speeding ticket, the officer needs to show up on the court date otherwise the ticket gets thrown out. Now, CPS get significant cash incentive to show up for court but I would wonder if the same applied to peace officers. At any rate, having a judge even look at your ticket would more than cost the province the $250 they fine you (also if you have the time to attend court).

Also, a peace officer enforces his observations and the bylaw. A judge can hear your story and rule based on the information provided. Who knows, you may be able to get the fine reduced.

[firebane]

Originally posted by Cos
Except you could have never paid and had a book of 7 in your pocket for 6 months and 'oh this is the one time I forgot to validate.'

I watched someone run up to the platform when the door was open and parked, put her bag in the way, and then validated her ticket. I asked her why and she said she got a ticket once and will never do it again.

I would have kicked the bag out of the way and said SOL.

I hate people who do that shit.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Euro838
Now, CPS get significant cash incentive to show up for court but I would wonder if the same applied to peace officers.

Let's get this straight... CPS doesn't get "significant" cash incentive to show up for court. If it's on a day off, they're paid (and paid OT) to go to court. If you had to go to work on your day off, you'd probably demand to be paid as well.

Same applies for POs. I get paid to go to court, whether it's a scheduled day of work or not. If I'm already working, then I get no "bonus" to go to court.

[rumeo]

You should fight it regardless (if you have no issue going to court for the day), worst case they'll say no and you're back to square 1.

When I was younger I was in a similar situation. I moved here from a different city that had different transit rules, explained my situation to the judge (which I was 30 mins late for too lol) and she let me off with a warning.

Maybe they'll reduce the fine, maybe they take it all away. Only one way to find out.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
Same applies for POs. I get paid to go to court, whether it's a scheduled day of work or not. If I'm already working, then I get no "bonus" to go to court.
What would encourage a cop to not show up for a court date? I always heard one should attempt to get a court date on a Friday of a long weekend. Any truth to this?

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Feruk

What would encourage a cop to not show up for a court date? I always heard one should attempt to get a court date on a Friday of a long weekend. Any truth to this?

We can't just not show up for a court date. It's part of our duties, and we are lawfully obligated to be there unless we can't attend for some other lawful purpose or reason. It's the same as any other witness not showing up without lawful excuse, except we don't have witness warrants issued for our arrest. Court isn't optional.

To address Euro838: we get paid for court because it's part of our job, and because of the duties we engage in when we are on "scheduled shift" we end up in court on days off when we are scheduled off. We don't have any says whatsoever in when trial dates are, if court happens on days on or days off, etc.

There is no incentive for us to show up, aside from not being stuck with a neglect of duty charge under the PSA. I don't like going to court on days off, regardless of being paid for it. I want my days off, because it takes at least 2 days for me to recover from working nights as part of my regular duties and that leaves me with two other days off to go and have fun and get other things done.

[lasimmon]

Go to the court date, take responsibility, explain your situation, and they will reduce it to $150 or $100 depending how much they like you.

Works every time. Just have to determine if its worth your time.

[civic_stylez]

Ive noticed quite the crackdown in June on CT. From December to May i was asked for a fare proof once. So far in June its not uncommon for me to get checked on my way to and from work. Just a heads up for those that are fare jumping. I see them taking people off the train daily and the excuses just flood out of the people that are caught... "Isnt Anderson part of the free fare zone??? I didnt know." Im sure those peace officers have heard everything.

Only thing that really pisses me off is the indians that jump the train. The peace officers just throw them off because they know theres no point in writing a ticket because it wont get paid. Theyre loud, arrogant and a bunch of other things that anyone who takes the train knows where im coming from....:guns:

[SOAB]

my wife recently got a warning from a CT cop. it was like the 2nd or 3rd day of the month and she had forgotten to buy a new bus pass. they gave her a warning because they saw all the previous months passes that she had bought.

[Euro838]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


Let's get this straight... CPS doesn't get "significant" cash incentive to show up for court. If it's on a day off, they're paid (and paid OT) to go to court. If you had to go to work on your day off, you'd probably demand to be paid as well.

Same applies for POs. I get paid to go to court, whether it's a scheduled day of work or not. If I'm already working, then I get no "bonus" to go to court.

Well, the information that I received was from the wife of a CPS officer and she definitely made it sound like the incentive was more from a monetary perspective than upholding the law. Sorry if there was confusion there and obviously this was based from only one person.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by civic_stylez
Only thing that really pisses me off is the indians that jump the train. The peace officers just throw them off because they know theres no point in writing a ticket because it wont get paid. Theyre loud, arrogant and a bunch of other things that anyone who takes the train knows where im coming from....:guns:

Lets not get into it, but this x 1000.

[mr2mike]

FYI: If you don't pay the ticket, a summons goes out for your arrest. Which you'll realize at the most incovenient time... pulled over for a speeding ticket... taken downtown and vehicle impounded.

[Euro838]

Originally posted by phil98z24


We can't just not show up for a court date. It's part of our duties, and we are lawfully obligated to be there unless we can't attend for some other lawful purpose or reason. It's the same as any other witness not showing up without lawful excuse, except we don't have witness warrants issued for our arrest. Court isn't optional.

To address Euro838: we get paid for court because it's part of our job, and because of the duties we engage in when we are on "scheduled shift" we end up in court on days off when we are scheduled off. We don't have any says whatsoever in when trial dates are, if court happens on days on or days off, etc.

There is no incentive for us to show up, aside from not being stuck with a neglect of duty charge under the PSA. I don't like going to court on days off, regardless of being paid for it. I want my days off, because it takes at least 2 days for me to recover from working nights as part of my regular duties and that leaves me with two other days off to go and have fun and get other things done.

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess to the OP, you can just go and explain your situation. If anything, most of the fine would just to paying the resources required just to hear your case! LOL!

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by mr2mike
FYI: If you don't pay the ticket, a summons goes out for your arrest. Which you'll realize at the most incovenient time... pulled over for a speeding ticket... taken downtown and vehicle impounded.

I was just about to ask what happens for non-payment.

They actually issue a warrant for your arrest over a transit ticket??? That's madness.

[Euro838]

Originally posted by civic_stylez
Ive noticed quite the crackdown in June on CT. From December to May i was asked for a fare proof once. So far in June its not uncommon for me to get checked on my way to and from work. Just a heads up for those that are fare jumping. I see them taking people off the train daily and the excuses just flood out of the people that are caught... "Isnt Anderson part of the free fare zone??? I didnt know." Im sure those peace officers have heard everything.


I've also noticed that the last few times the PO have been checking on the trains, that everyone was in compliance and had ticket so they just moved onto the next train. Probably prior to the fine increase to $250 (and repeat offenses increase), there was definitely at least 1 person pulled off the train every time. I would say the fine values are high enough with respect to the single ticket or monthly pass that it's not worth the risk.

LOL, wonder when that will change with single fair prices hit $5 or passes are $150+

[dandia89]

Originally posted by Euro838


I've also noticed that the last few times the PO have been checking on the trains, that everyone was in compliance and had ticket so they just moved onto the next train. Probably prior to the fine increase to $250 (and repeat offenses increase), there was definitely at least 1 person pulled off the train every time. I would say the fine values are high enough with respect to the single ticket or monthly pass that it's not worth the risk.

LOL, wonder when that will change with single fair prices hit $5 or passes are $150+

it's so rare to catch a PO during rush hour. i haven't seen one in the last 7 months i've been taking the train. it's almost better financially to risk it.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by civic_stylez
Only thing that really pisses me off is the indians that jump the train. The peace officers just throw them off because they know theres no point in writing a ticket because it wont get paid. Theyre loud, arrogant and a bunch of other things that anyone who takes the train knows where im coming from....:guns:

This is the #1 thing that annoyed me as well. I see drunks/natives get tossed off the train all the time without getting a ticket, yet since I am not a drunk homeless native and actually contribute to society, I have to pay my fine should I ever get one, and they will pursue it if I don't pay. It should be all or nothing. Can't or don't pay the fine? Go to jail for the equivalent. Win/Win since they aren't annoying people on the trains if they are working off their fines in jail.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by phil98z24


We can't just not show up for a court date. It's part of our duties, and we are lawfully obligated to be there unless we can't attend for some other lawful purpose or reason. It's the same as any other witness not showing up without lawful excuse, except we don't have witness warrants issued for our arrest. Court isn't optional.

To address Euro838: we get paid for court because it's part of our job, and because of the duties we engage in when we are on "scheduled shift" we end up in court on days off when we are scheduled off. We don't have any says whatsoever in when trial dates are, if court happens on days on or days off, etc.

There is no incentive for us to show up, aside from not being stuck with a neglect of duty charge under the PSA. I don't like going to court on days off, regardless of being paid for it. I want my days off, because it takes at least 2 days for me to recover from working nights as part of my regular duties and that leaves me with two other days off to go and have fun and get other things done.

Don't you get paid a full or half day even if you show up for 30 mins? The officers I know seem to love court OT.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Don't you get paid a full or half day even if you show up for 30 mins? The officers I know seem to love court OT.

Yes, but the fact that I have to get ready for court, get down there, wait around, etc etc, amounts to a day pretty much down the tubes. Couple that with the fact that court often falls the day after a night shift when you haven't had sleep, or right in the middle of days off thus not allowing you to make any sort of plans to leave town... you get the point.

We are compensated for that with hours so that we can use them to take another day off in lieu of, but we have the option to have them paid out instead... which I can tell you, is not what a lot of people do.

Anyways, it's not an incentive. It's compensation as part of our job.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by 16hypen3sp


I was just about to ask what happens for non-payment.

They actually issue a warrant for your arrest over a transit ticket??? That's madness.

Well when you owe money to city/province it's super serious and you get your ass thrown in jail asap. Steal from someone or hurt someone physically and things move a lot slower as there is no money to be had :nut: jk of course....

That $250 seems disproportionately high to how much a single ticket costs. Why is that so high and talking on the cell is $174 when the latter is explained as distracted driving that can kill??

[kvg]

Originally posted by GREENBOY
My argument is I had a ticket in my hand and a book of tickets in my pocket. These fail to pay tickets are supposed to be for deadbeats who don't pay to ride transit

You didn't punch a ticket(pay), so........:closed:

[blitz]

Originally posted by Aleks
That $250 seems disproportionately high to how much a single ticket costs. Why is that so high and talking on the cell is $174 when the latter is explained as distracted driving that can kill??

When Transit costs $96, the fine has to be high enough to deter people from just not paying and getting caught a few times a year.

Even at $250, you essentially have to get 5 tickets a year to equal the cost of actually paying for 12 monthly passes.

[dansmith11]

i think they are training new people lately. ive been checked for the last 3 days straight. on the way home yesterday they checked the same train twice. once at bridgeland and once again at whitehorn.

buy your tickets this month :P

[nickyh]

Apparently a whole bunch were graduated on Friday, i've been checked every day this week heading home to Aspen.

Today they were standing on the platform waiting for people at the entrance to the stations.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by dandia89
it's so rare to catch a PO during rush hour. i haven't seen one in the last 7 months i've been taking the train. it's almost better financially to risk it.
I recommend you never try to get off at Sunalta. They are there daily.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Euro838]

Originally posted by blitz

Even at $250, you essentially have to get 5 tickets a year to equal the cost of actually paying for 12 monthly passes.

I heard that is not true and that for repeat offenders it goes up by like $250 each time, so the second offense is $500 and 3rd is like $750. Anyone verify?

[thinmyster]

I saw them headed home on the Somerset line @ 6:30pm. The guy was dressed in a way that I almost didn't recognize them. Another passenger was commenting on being checked twice in two days.

I'm almost sure the biggest transit "offenders" are those who take the train during rush hour like the OP because they know the peace officer RARELY check during peak times. I think about chancing it every single day but I'd be too damn embarrassed to caught. I honestly think I would be saving myself money :nut:

[eblend]

Originally posted by Euro838


I heard that is not true and that for repeat offenders it goes up by like $250 each time, so the second offense is $500 and 3rd is like $750. Anyone verify?

Indeed true

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/611548/calgary-transits-worst-riders-slapped-with-hefty-fines/

"A stiffer penalty grid was also established for those caught riding the rails without paying the fare — $250 for the first offence, $500 for the second and $750 for the third."

[blitz]

Originally posted by eblend


Indeed true

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/611548/calgary-transits-worst-riders-slapped-with-hefty-fines/

"A stiffer penalty grid was also established for those caught riding the rails without paying the fare — $250 for the first offence, $500 for the second and $750 for the third."

:thumbsup:

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by 16hypen3sp


I was just about to ask what happens for non-payment.

They actually issue a warrant for your arrest over a transit ticket??? That's madness. How else can they compel you to pay? With traffic tickets they can attach it to your license or to your registration, so that at some point, you have to pay.

With bylaw offences, they don't have that ability, so after you get convicted in your absence, what's referred to as a "pay or stay" warrant issues. If police come across you later, they'll arrest you and you can either pay the fine or spend the default time in jail, which for a $250 fine would be 3 days, I think.

[cam_wmh]

Originally posted by Euro838
<snip>


Originally posted by 95EagleAWD

<snip>

I think what Euro383 was suggesting, is that court time, is most often overtime?

An incentive I suppose, but fairly & appropriately so imo.

(I think anyone who's paid hourly, were to be asked to come in on their day off to perform their duties, should be entitled to overtime pay)

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by cam_wmh




I think what Euro383 was suggesting, is that court time, is most often overtime?

An incentive I suppose, but fairly &amp; appropriately so imo.

(I think anyone who's paid hourly, were to be asked to come in on their day off to perform their duties, should be entitled to overtime pay)

Incentive implies that we write tickets in the hopes of getting more money out of it.

That's not the case. I get paid overtime for court, but you know what, I'd rather drive down to Calgary and hang out with the girl on my days off rather than sit in court, paid or not.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


Incentive implies that we write tickets in the hopes of getting more money out of it.

That's not the case. I get paid overtime for court, but you know what, I'd rather drive down to Calgary and hang out with the girl on my days off rather than sit in court, paid or not.
But thats just you, there are overtime diggers in every organization. You can't speak for everyone on the force. There are people who have no life outside of work, those that are living above the jobs pay scale, people with child support payments etc that all love OT.
I worked in a larger union shop years ago, the lengths some of the mechanics would go through to get overtime was mind blowing. The pay scales were fixed to the agreement, so when a mechanism was found that makes more money, it gets exploited. And no one goes around smiling about how they are fucking around openly to get OT, people keep it to themselves, and find ways to legitimize it.
I disliked OT and was content with an honest 80 hour pay cheque as well from putting in an full effort day, but it was the difference between the mechanics that made 90k a year and the ones that made 150k.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by dexlargo
How else can they compel you to pay? With traffic tickets they can attach it to your license or to your registration, so that at some point, you have to pay.

With bylaw offences, they don't have that ability, so after you get convicted in your absence, what's referred to as a &quot;pay or stay&quot; warrant issues. If police come across you later, they'll arrest you and you can either pay the fine or spend the default time in jail, which for a $250 fine would be 3 days, I think.

So they issue the warrant for inside the City limits of Calgary or is this warrant province wide?

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by 16hypen3sp


So they issue the warrant for inside the City limits of Calgary or is this warrant province wide?

Province-wide. We get people with warrants for transit tickets all the time.

[cam_wmh]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


Incentive implies that we write tickets in the hopes of getting more money out of it.

That's not the case. I get paid overtime for court, but you know what, I'd rather drive down to Calgary and hang out with the girl on my days off rather than sit in court, paid or not.

Well, as I was defending you...

If you write more tickets than the average, there isn't a benefit to that come performance evaluation time?

Have to elaborate how that wouldn't be a lucrative conversation with a superior, when you're applying for promotion.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


Province-wide. We get people with warrants for transit tickets all the time.

Hmm. Interesting... Good to know.

So that being said, I guess you arrest them in, lets say, a traffic stop? Run their I.D., comes back with warrant for transit violation, you execute arrest?

Then what? Are they forced to pay once they get down to the station or what?

[FraserB]

^ Pay or stay.

[brucebanner]

Originally posted by Maxt

But thats just you, there are overtime diggers in every organization. You can't speak for everyone on the force. There are people who have no life outside of work, those that are living above the jobs pay scale, people with child support payments etc that all love OT.
I worked in a larger union shop years ago, the lengths some of the mechanics would go through to get overtime was mind blowing. The pay scales were fixed to the agreement, so when a mechanism was found that makes more money, it gets exploited. And no one goes around smiling about how they are fucking around openly to get OT, people keep it to themselves, and find ways to legitimize it.
I disliked OT and was content with an honest 80 hour pay cheque as well from putting in an full effort day, but it was the difference between the mechanics that made 90k a year and the ones that made 150k.

This is very much true. I see it often around where I work.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by Maxt

But thats just you, there are overtime diggers in every organization. You can't speak for everyone on the force. There are people who have no life outside of work, those that are living above the jobs pay scale, people with child support payments etc that all love OT.
I worked in a larger union shop years ago, the lengths some of the mechanics would go through to get overtime was mind blowing. The pay scales were fixed to the agreement, so when a mechanism was found that makes more money, it gets exploited. And no one goes around smiling about how they are fucking around openly to get OT, people keep it to themselves, and find ways to legitimize it.
I disliked OT and was content with an honest 80 hour pay cheque as well from putting in an full effort day, but it was the difference between the mechanics that made 90k a year and the ones that made 150k.

Haha... Agreed. Some people just literally NEED the OT. They can't live without it. I've made it known around here that I'm not a fan of OT. Maybe a few extra shifts in winter but I work the minimum amount possible in the summer.

I knew an electrician that would mess with the PLC every Friday just before he'd head home. Just something easy but only he could fix. He knew the run schedule of the equipment so every Saturday morning the logic would attempt something but would be fucked due to this "thing" the electrician did. Duty manager would call him out, he'd have it fixed in less than 30 seconds, then back home he went.

3 hours of OT pay for 30 seconds of work.

[FraserB]

Hopefully someone turned him in.

Making puppies in order to push out a job is one thing, intentional sabotage is another entirely.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by FraserB
Hopefully someone turned him in.

Making puppies in order to push out a job is one thing, intentional sabotage is another entirely.

My thoughts exactly... This was when I worked at a small plant. A small, unionized, plant.

And that electrician was our shop steward. Very into the union. If they even tried to fire him, it went straight into arbitration and the company wanted no part in that.

He was very into soduko too. Haha... He would always hide in the corner of an MCC and we would radio our boss to come and look at something. Once boss man was there, we would flat out tell him that that guy was playing soduko in the MCC. Boss would run up and catch him red-handed.

:rofl: Jesus those were good times.

Found out last year that they promoted him into a senior management position. Hahaha... how typical of that place.

Anyways... this thread kinda got derailed.