Anyone notice the gas prices...

[Tik-Tok]

Not Regular, but the difference between Regular and Premium. I got a text today from a friend says Esso was 17 cents difference, and I just filled up at a Shell, where's it's 18 cents difference :eek:

WTF? It used to be 10c, Every time I've been to the the U.S. , it's only 6c FFS.

A new way to f#$% the consumer in the ass without setting off the media alarms, or is there a legitimate reason why?

[got_mike33]

I've noticed it's been doing this for a while. Last summer it was only 15 cents difference, then in the winter it was 16 and now it is 17, apparently jumping to 18.

One of the reasons I got rid of my Audi and bought a sky-active Mazda.

[spikerS]

This is why I won't buy a vehicle that requires premium gas.

[SportEL]

And why is it above $1.40 now? I haven't had to pay this much for gas ever. I assume it has to do with what's going on in the Middle East.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
Not Regular, but the difference between Regular and Premium. I got a text today from a friend says Esso was 17 cents difference, and I just filled up at a Shell, where's it's 18 cents difference :eek:

WTF? It used to be 10c, Every time I've been to the the U.S. , it's only 6c FFS.

A new way to f#$% the consumer in the ass without setting off the media alarms, or is there a legitimate reason why?

I have noticed this as well, 18c is a fair bit of difference compared to what it was!

[sneek]

Different places have different spreads between regular and premium. I think Esso/Petro are 16 cents or so and Shell is the most at 18 cents or so. Of course the Costco membership saves the day once again if you are willing to use their gas. I think they only charge 11 cents or so.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

I just stopped fucking caring. It sucks but nothing I can do but drive less and drive more efficiently.

[schocker]

costco ftw
I believe it is only 10c/L more so great deal overall when their regular is about 6c less than everywhere else

[Canucks3322]

Be glad you don't live in Vancouver where it's 169.99 hahahahaha

Edit....today it's a high as 170.50

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by SportEL
And why is it above $1.40 now? I haven't had to pay this much for gas ever. I assume it has to do with what's going on in the Middle East.

No it's the "poor" refinery companies struggling to make record profits in such a slow economy. How else are they supposed to post billion $ profits if they can't manipulate the retail prices

[Stewjoe]

I have noticed store brand gas; Extra foods, Co-op, Costco etc... Is 10c more while the gas stations such as Shell, Petro and Esso charge 15c+ however they add more detergents than the stores with lower premium prices.

I only have to burn premium with my summer tune but it hurts. My winter ECU can take regular.

[Maxx Mazda]

At least at Petro you can get 93 instead of horse piss 91

[Maxt]

..

[Maxt]

Or so you think :)

http://www.saltbox-home-inspections-hamilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Simpsons_Duff_Lite_Dry.jpg

[clem24]

Originally posted by spikerS
This is why I won't buy a vehicle that requires premium gas.

But you'll buy a big guzzling truck...

[schocker]

Also, in an entire year, I would pay about $230 based on 65/L and 3 tanks a month. That is a small price to pay when pretty much all nice cars use premium.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by clem24


But you'll buy a big guzzling truck...

LOL, my truck does not exactly "guzzle" gas! And realistically, it was required to meet all our needs as a family.

And my truck is a moot point because I don't have to fill it with premium.

[avishal26]

Originally posted by schocker
costco ftw
I believe it is only 10c/L more so great deal overall when their regular is about 6c less than everywhere else

This!

It was $1.449 at Esso the other day for Premium, went over to Costco, paid $1.329 for premium. Still hurts but not as bad. Regular was $1.279 that day I think at Esso

[schocker]

Originally posted by avishal26
This!

It was $1.449 at Esso the other day for Premium, went over to Costco, paid $1.329 for premium. Still hurts but not as bad. Regular was $1.279 that day I think at Esso
The only thing is you have to watch how late they are open some times, I think generally it is 1 hr after the store closes, and it can also get super busy. But lately I haven't even had issues going mid day on the weekend which is nice.

[Darkane]

Meh. It is what it is.

Just paid 146.9 for 94 at Cranston petro.

Paid 162.9 for 91 in mcmurray august 2008. Still doing good here

[heavyfuel]

I noticed that diesel is cheaper than regular, haha

[n1zm0]

It's because of ISIS!

Really though, maybe there's some ploy cause they know the city has money, money means high performance/luxury cars, means gouge the citizens for premium fuel prices?

[CapnCrunch]

The most annoying part is the $100 limit for paying at the pump at some stations. If it hits ~1.48L I'm going to need 3 separate transactions to fill up my truck lol.

[Mitsu3000gt]

How often are you guys filling up that $0.10-$0.17 makes any noticeable difference over, say, a year? Even if you fill up 80L twice a month that's around $130/year incremental, and I'm sure you're driving a nicer car than average if it takes premium to begin with. Even if you filled up 80L every single week which is a lot, that's not even $300/year incremental, under a dollar a day. Small price to pay if you're enjoying a nice sports car, luxury sedan, or similar IMO.

Do you honestly even notice the price difference at the end of the day? That is like 1-2 hours of work a year to cover the difference for most of you guys :rofl:.

[max_boost]

Pay to play.

[Toma]

Just wait till DEMAND goes up when the US starts exporting oil (been banned for 40 years), and the Keystone XL and Northern Gateway start exporting off shore at ever increasing volume. Enbridge was the first company to get a license re export out of the US.... now several others have been approved...

We will be like Europe, well over $2 a liter in a lot of places. :dunno:

Capitalism, right? :nut:

[clem24]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I'm sure you're driving a nicer car than average if it takes premium to begin with.

Yeah my Matrix XRS is such a 'nicer' car hahaha. It's funny that only 2/6 cars I own/owned were regular.

But yes fill up at Costco to save the most on premium.

[Toma]

Originally posted by clem24


Yeah my Matrix XRS is such a 'nicer' car hahaha. It's funny that only 2/6 cars I own/owned were regular.

But yes fill up at Costco to save the most on premium.

Almost any car can be regular... if you don't put the throttle too far down lol.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Toma
Just wait till DEMAND goes up when the US starts exporting oil (been banned for 40 years), and the Keystone XL and Northern Gateway start exporting off shore at ever increasing volume. Enbridge was the first company to get a license re export out of the US.... now several others have been approved...

We will be like Europe, well over $2 a liter in a lot of places. :dunno:

Capitalism, right? :nut:

I'm fine with $2/L gasoline. It would reduce the amount of 4x4 pickups and large SUV's on the road which IMO are wasteful. The only real negative is the cost of goods would go up due to increase in transportation costs.

[got_mike33]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
How often are you guys filling up that $0.10-$0.17 makes any noticeable difference over, say, a year? Even if you fill up 80L twice a month that's around $130/year incremental, and I'm sure you're driving a nicer car than average if it takes premium to begin with. Even if you filled up 80L every single week which is a lot, that's not even $300/year incremental, under a dollar a day. Small price to pay if you're enjoying a nice sports car, luxury sedan, or similar IMO.

Do you honestly even notice the price difference at the end of the day? That is like 1-2 hours of work a year to cover the difference for most of you guys :rofl:.

I drive on average 25,000 km a year (work is far from home), and with my Audi was getting about 7.5 L/100 km. Apparently the Mazda averages about 6L/100 km.

So Audi: 25000km*7.5 L/100km = 1875L*$1.449/L = $2716.88

Mazda: 25000km*6/100km = 1500L*$1.279/L = $1918.50

So with the switch to a new car I would be saving ~ $800/year so it is definitely noticeable.

Also, I think your math is a little off...

80L/week * 52 weeks * $0.17/L = $707.8 difference between regular and premium assuming you are using the same amount of gas.

$700 extra per year isn't exactly worth it in my opinion... But I am not a beyond baller haha.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by clem24


Yeah my Matrix XRS is such a 'nicer' car hahaha. It's funny that only 2/6 cars I own/owned were regular.

But yes fill up at Costco to save the most on premium.

Haha the Matrix takes premium? I would not have guessed that!

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by got_mike33


I drive on average 25,000 km a year (work is far from home), and with my Audi was getting about 7.5 L/100 km. Apparently the Mazda averages about 6L/100 km.

So Audi: 25000km*7.5 L/100km = 1875L*$1.449/L = $2716.88

Mazda: 25000km*6/100km = 1500L*$1.279/L = $1918.50

So with the switch to a new car I would be saving ~ $800/year so it is definitely noticeable.

Also, I think your math is a little off...

80L/week * 52 weeks * $0.17/L = $707.8 difference between regular and premium assuming you are using the same amount of gas.

$700 extra per year isn't exactly worth it in my opinion... But I am not a beyond baller haha.

We're not debating the regular/premium increase, but rather the ~$0.07 increase on premium fuel prices compared to previous premium fuel prices. My math was correct. The assumption is that if you own a vehicle requiring premium, that much is a sunk cost.

Your Audi is only costing you an extra $130/year if the regular-to-premium differential increased from $0.10 to $0.17, that is nothing over a year. Anyone who would switch cars over that should probably be taking a very close look at other areas of their financial situation as well.

Even then I would argue $800/year is completely insignificant if the trade off is a nicer car (assuming of course you like cars haha), that's less than most people's cell phone bills split out over 12 months.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by clem24


But you'll buy a big guzzling truck...

I'm pretty sure his guzzling truck gets better mileage than your premium-drinking car. ;)

[Zhariak]

I just realized this too...

I always use 94 at Petro. For the longest time I've thought gas prices were just going up, didn't think twice about it. Other day was just looking around and noticed the big sign with normal grade, was surprised at the difference.

[Boosted131]

Go to gas plus, it's always about 10
Cent difference even today

[94boosted]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
How often are you guys filling up that $0.10-$0.17 makes any noticeable difference over, say, a year? Even if you fill up 80L twice a month that's around $130/year incremental, and I'm sure you're driving a nicer car than average if it takes premium to begin with. Even if you filled up 80L every single week which is a lot, that's not even $300/year incremental, under a dollar a day. Small price to pay if you're enjoying a nice sports car, luxury sedan, or similar IMO.

Do you honestly even notice the price difference at the end of the day? That is like 1-2 hours of work a year to cover the difference for most of you guys :rofl:.

This :thumbsup:

Gas is still cheaper here than most places :dunno:

[kvg]

I don't even bother looking at the price at the pump, because I'm going to fill my tank anyways:dunno: What choice do I really have in a huge spread out city like Calgary?

[avishal26]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


We're not debating the regular/premium increase, but rather the ~$0.07 increase on premium fuel prices compared to previous premium fuel prices. My math was correct. The assumption is that if you own a vehicle requiring premium, that much is a sunk cost.

Your Audi is only costing you an extra $130/year if the regular-to-premium differential increased from $0.10 to $0.17, that is nothing over a year. Anyone who would switch cars over that should probably be taking a very close look at other areas of their financial situation as well.

Even then I would argue $800/year is completely insignificant if the trade off is a nicer car (assuming of course you like cars haha), that's less than most people's cell phone bills split out over 12 months.

For me, the extra 7c a litre that premium has jumped by would actually amount to approx $200 a year.

I don't think most people who fill up premium would really care about an extra $10 to $20 a month, but everyone will have a problem with paying extra for no reason. When there are lots of places where premium is only $0.10 more per litre, there is no reason any gas station should charge 17 cents more per premium litre. Doesn't matter if you're filthy rich, no one likes being ripped off. You don't get filthy rich by paying more for the exact same product that everyone else pays less for. Money smarts...

Also, I save on average about 10 to 12 cents a litre by getting premium at Costco as opposed to Shell / Esso. That is almost $400 a year for me - easy savings. Would I miss the $400 a year right now... not really. But that is not the point.

[avishal26]

^Also, the average mileage these days in Alberta is considered to be around 24,000 kms per year, so 2,000 kms per month.

Unless you drive a hybrid, for most people that use premium fuel that would amount to 45 - 50 litres a week.

[BavarianBeast]

Originally posted by Maxx Mazda
At least at Petro you can get 93 instead of horse piss 91

Petro 93 is absolute garbage compared to Shell 91.

I wouldn't put that shit in any of my cars.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by avishal26


For me, the extra 7c a litre that premium has jumped by would actually amount to approx $200 a year.

I don't think most people who fill up premium would really care about an extra $10 to $20 a month, but everyone will have a problem with paying extra for no reason. When there are lots of places where premium is only $0.10 more per litre, there is no reason any gas station should charge 17 cents more per premium litre. Doesn't matter if you're filthy rich, no one likes being ripped off. You don't get filthy rich by paying more for the exact same product that everyone else pays less for. Money smarts...

Also, I save on average about 10 to 12 cents a litre by getting premium at Costco as opposed to Shell / Esso. That is almost $400 a year for me - easy savings. Would I miss the $400 a year right now... not really. But that is not the point.

I see your point, but it's just like anything. People don't like being inconvenienced, and are almost always willing to pay for convenience. For example, I go to CO-OP and get ripped off buying many of my groceries instead of Superstore because it's 2 blocks from my house. Do I enjoy paying more? No, but it's better than driving in Calgary traffic even for 10 minutes just to save a few bucks each time.

If some gas stations charge $1.40 for premium and others $1.47, the people who care can drive around looking for the $1.40 wasting their time for the sake of $4/fill up, but the vast majority of people are going to pull in and fill at $1.47.

Nearly everyone needs to buy gas, they will pay whatever the price is, even if it was $2.00/L - they may not like it but they are still going to do it. Gas prices would have to get stupid high for a lot of people to consider changing vehicles or car pool, I would think. Even then, hybrid vehicles and the like are often more expensive than their gasoline counterpart, which takes a long time to pay off with the difference as well. With the amount of single occupancy vehicles commuting every day, it's pretty clear not many people give two shits about gas prices haha.

I honestly can't even remember the last time I paid attention to a gas price, even when I was driving the S4 using 4X the gas I am now. What am I going to do, not fill up?

[max_boost]

Originally posted by kvg
I don't even bother looking at the price at the pump, because I'm going to fill my tank anyways:dunno: What choice do I really have in a huge spread out city like Calgary? :werd:

If gas cost is of concern you buy a fuel efficient vehicle lol

[kenny]

Originally posted by avishal26


I don't think most people who fill up premium would really care about an extra $10 to $20 a month, but everyone will have a problem with paying extra for no reason. When there are lots of places where premium is only $0.10 more per litre, there is no reason any gas station should charge 17 cents more per premium litre.

Shouldn't businesses be free to set their prices to whatever they want? I've always found the gasoline market to be quite intriguing to watch. I get it that gas can be considered a necessity (it actually isn't since you can take transit) but consumers demand minimal profits for gas stations but not of other businesses that offer "necessities".

Grocery stores can price their stuff at whatever price they want and there is never any public backlash. Consumers just go elsewhere if prices are too high at a particular retailer but the above argument is only ever made when it comes to gas prices.

[A790]

Originally posted by kenny


Shouldn't businesses be free to set their prices to whatever they want? I've always found the gasoline market to be quite intriguing to watch. I get it that gas can be considered a necessity (it actually isn't since you can take transit) but consumers demand minimal profits for gas stations but not of other businesses that offer "necessities".

Grocery stores can price their stuff at whatever price they want and there is never any public backlash. Consumers just go elsewhere if prices are too high at a particular retailer but the above argument is only ever made when it comes to gas prices.
Do you remember what happened when stores jacked up the prices for ice/etc. during the floods? lol

[Kg810]

Originally posted by A790

Do you remember what happened when stores jacked up the prices for ice/etc. during the floods? lol

That's a different situation because it was during an emergency.

[thetransporter]

maybe it would be cheaper to buy a 1000 galon tank, put it in a pick up, drive to the Montana border, return to Calgary and fill up in the drive way, princess auto sells gas station accessories.

[clem24]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Haha the Matrix takes premium? I would not have guessed that!

Just the XRS. Higher compression and 8400 RPM redline LOL.


Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'm pretty sure his guzzling truck gets better mileage than your premium-drinking car. ;)

Hey I wasn't the one complaining about premium fuel prices LOL. In the city I am thinking the 6.2L + less weight does better than the ecoboost + more weight but probably not highway. The on board computer is reporting an average of 13.3L/100kms in the past 20,000 KMs or so.

The Matrix though is about 7.8L/100kms, and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference how hard I drive it hahaha.

[jsn]

Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
I just stopped fucking caring. It sucks but nothing I can do but drive less and drive more efficiently.

This. I stopped paying attention to the prices a long time ago. At the end of the day, it might be the difference of a few dollars. Either I pay for premium or I sell the WRX and go back to civics and similar cars, but that's not happening anytime soon. I do remember it used to be a 10cent difference, but not much you can do about it if they raised it to 18 cents. Gotta pay to play.

[M.alex]

Originally posted by BavarianBeast


Petro 93 is absolute garbage compared to Shell 91.

I wouldn't put that shit in any of my cars.

this

[Toma]

94 Husky still the best.

[t_soarer]

If you're fueling with premium gasoline, you're in the least price sensitive category of customers in the eyes of the retailer. There.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by spikerS
This is why I won't buy a vehicle that requires premium gas.
Im surprised with the turbo ecoboost that you dont have to...

I do with my turbo Buick, it fucking sucks. I've been using mid-grade for a while now, because for how much driving I do with it, Premium gets too be quite an expense on gas.
:thumbsdow

Fuck, I wish I would have considered that before I bought it. :banghead:

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M

Im surprised with the turbo ecoboost that you dont have to...

I do with my turbo Buick, it fucking sucks. I've been using mid-grade for a while now, because for how much driving I do with it, Premium gets too be quite an expense on gas.
:thumbsdow

Fuck, I wish I would have considered that before I bought it. :banghead:

Yeah, I was surprised. I was going to get the 5.0 instead because I thought it would need premium. I was shocked it only needed 87. I can use premium, but the manual says only time I need it is when towing.

[benyl]

Originally posted by spikerS


Yeah, I was surprised. I was going to get the 5.0 instead because I thought it would need premium. I was shocked it only needed 87. I can use premium, but the manual says only time I need it is when towing.

It just means that ford left a lot power on the table to placate the masses.

Most cars in calgary, turbo or not, run rich due to our altitude. Running 89 in a car that asks for 91 or 85 (doesn't exist here) in a car that runs 87 would be fine.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by jsn


This. I stopped paying attention to the prices a long time ago. At the end of the day, it might be the difference of a few dollars. Either I pay for premium or I sell the WRX and go back to civics and similar cars, but that's not happening anytime soon. I do remember it used to be a 10cent difference, but not much you can do about it if they raised it to 18 cents. Gotta pay to play. it's not fair! :D

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by benyl

Most cars in calgary, turbo or not, run rich due to our altitude. Running 89 in a car that asks for 91 or 85 (doesn't exist here) in a car that runs 87 would be fine.

Naturally aspirated, yes
forced induction, no.

[benyl]

Depends on how the ECU meters air. MAP, you cannot run lower octane. MAF, you can.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by heavyD


I'm fine with $2/L gasoline. It would reduce the amount of 4x4 pickups and large SUV's on the road which IMO are wasteful.

$2 gas in Calgary won't even put a dent in the number of trucks and SUV's on the road.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
How often are you guys filling up that $0.10-$0.17 makes any noticeable difference over, say, a year? Even if you fill up 80L twice a month that's around $130/year incremental, and I'm sure you're driving a nicer car than average if it takes premium to begin with. Even if you filled up 80L every single week which is a lot, that's not even $300/year incremental, under a dollar a day. Small price to pay if you're enjoying a nice sports car, luxury sedan, or similar IMO.

Do you honestly even notice the price difference at the end of the day? That is like 1-2 hours of work a year to cover the difference for most of you guys :rofl:.

I was just going to write almost this exact post out, it pretty much mirrors my consumption (and point of view haha). I did the math, and it costs me ~$265 extra per year to drive a car that takes premium. Even if I commuted in it daily and it cost me an extra $700 per year, that's totally worth it for me. That means it's an extra couple bucks a day to drive a car that I actually enjoy driving, instead of some POS econobox. Entirely worth it for me.

[Buster]

Originally posted by kenny


Shouldn't businesses be free to set their prices to whatever they want? I've always found the gasoline market to be quite intriguing to watch. I get it that gas can be considered a necessity (it actually isn't since you can take transit) but consumers demand minimal profits for gas stations but not of other businesses that offer "necessities".

Grocery stores can price their stuff at whatever price they want and there is never any public backlash. Consumers just go elsewhere if prices are too high at a particular retailer but the above argument is only ever made when it comes to gas prices.

Price fixing is illegal.

and I think that stores can only charge a max for milk and eggs? Maybe I'm wrong.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
Price fixing is illegal.

and I think that stores can only charge a max for milk and eggs? Maybe I'm wrong.
Think you're way off on milk and eggs - free market there. I don't believe there's much that you purchase in Canada that is price regulated aside from possibly utilities (water/electricity/natural gas/telephone/cable) and even for utilities, there is much on your bill that is not regulated.

As far as price fixing - collusion between two or more parties has to be proven. Exactly what were you referring to when you brought up price fixing - fuel prices or other?

[Buster]

It depends on the jurisdiction. I think it's provincially regulated, but generally speaking milk prices are regulated within a certain window.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-to-review-how-milk-prices-are-set-1.1318886

In any case, milk and cheese production in Canada is managed on a quota basis by an industry consortium with the blessing of the gov't. That's just a fancy way of saying prices are controlled/regulated.

As for price fixing...I'm just saying it's illegal, in response to the comment that businesses should be able to set prices at whatever they want. They can, as long as they follow the rules. Which is really just another way of saying they can't.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
It depends on the jurisdiction. I think it's provincially regulated, but generally speaking milk prices are regulated within a certain window.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-to-review-how-milk-prices-are-set-1.1318886

In any case, milk and cheese production in Canada is managed on a quota basis by an industry consortium with the blessing of the gov't. That's just a fancy way of saying prices are controlled/regulated.

As for price fixing...I'm just saying it's illegal, in response to the comment that businesses should be able to set prices at whatever they want. They can, as long as they follow the rules. Which is really just another way of saying they can't.
Quotas being placed on producers is something completely different from what a retailer can charge the consumer and quoting a news article that speaks to regulations in Manitoba when we are here in Alberta doesn't mean much.

With respect to price fixing, it's only illegal if collusion is found to exist like I stated further above - I'm in a certain retail industry and there is nothing that stops me from setting prices at any level I wish aside from the pressure I might get from consumers. Some manufacturers try to control the pricing of their products but I have heard of no stores in my industry (pet food/gear) ever having a line pulled because they didn't set their retail pricing within the manufacturer's guidelines - it's all free market and what that market is willing to bear.

If you know of certain rules that apply in Alberta, then please post a link to such details - that kind of information should be readily available on-line and I'd be interested to find out what products do have price regulations on them in Alberta. My brother's automotive service shop - he sets his prices to whatever the market will bear - no rules there either. Milk in Alberta - was regulated in the past but only with respect to minimum pricing and that ceased in 1992, all regulation of milk stopped in 2008 (source (http://www.auc.ab.ca/about-the-auc/who-we-are/Pages/History.aspx)). Here's another link (http://www.countymarket.ca/2011/11/16/pricing-system-good-for-canadians-says-alberta-milk) to an article that states there is no retail price regulation for milk on Alberta,

[Buster]

As I said, it's provincially regulated.

And a quota system to regulate supply is really just one mechanism for price fixing....but that's largely a boring semantic debate.

I'm not saying that price fixing is easy to prove, I'm just saying it's illegal. So no, sellers are really not free to do what they want with pricing.

If you think we live in an actual free market, you're dreaming....

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
As I said, it's provincially regulated.

And a quota system to regulate supply is really just one mechanism for price fixing....but that's largely a boring semantic debate.

I'm not saying that price fixing is easy to prove, I'm just saying it's illegal. So no, sellers are really not free to do what they want with pricing.

If you think we live in an actual free market, you're dreaming....
Then I'm living the dream because the mark-up on everything I sell in our shop is set by myself - there is no regulation anywhere that sets the minimum or maximum price I can charge. Same goes for my brother's independence vehicle maintenance shop. The vet next to our shop - he set's his own prices as well, nothing regulates his procedure pricing. The farmers' market that my wife's non-profit runs - every vendor there sets their own pricing.

As such, please help me understand where you're coming from in saying sellers are really not free to do what they want with pricing.

[Buster]

I'm not seeing how this is so complicated.

You are allowed to set your own prices all you want - so long as they are not deemed anti-competitive.

That's like saying you can set your own speed, so long as it's not in excess of the speed limit.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
I'm not seeing how this is so complicated.

You are allowed to set your own prices all you want - so long as they are not deemed anti-competitive.

That's like saying you can set your own speed, so long as it's not in excess of the speed limit. They're only anti-competitive if you can be proven to be in collusion with one or more retailers to set pricing at a certain point in an attempt to control the market and that in itself is difficult to prove - only recent case I know of is the chocolate price-fixing case in Canada whereas Cadbury Adams Canada Inc., Hershey Canada Inc., Nestlé Canada Inc. and Mars Canada Inc., as well as distributor ITWAL Ltd were ordered to pay $23.2-million for the benefit of all persons who bought Cadbury, Hershey, Nestlé and/or Mars chocolate products in Canada between Feb. 1, 2001, and Dec. 31, 2008. Interesting in that these companies will probably pay virtually nothing because of the way the ruling was set - link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canadian-chocolate-makers-to-pay-232-million-in-price-fixing-lawsuit/article14361922/).

Once again, what is anti-competitive? I get my cut elk-antler directly from a breeder which completely takes a distributor (and their mark-up) out of the equation. As a result I had to make a choice - sell my elk antler products at the going market rates that my competitors do that buy it from the same distributors I would or set my retail pricing lower to reflect my reduced costs. Nothing illegal here and there's no one my competitors can go to to complain - I found a legal source that affords me a less outlay for a product that I can retail and retail at a lower price than my competitors. Is it anti-competitive - I would say not as any of my competitors are more than free to get their elk antler products from a variety of sources.

Now if I colluded with 2 or 3 other retailers to keep certain products down at a certain price point in an attempt to gain an unfair market share, then yes that would be price fixing.

My brother's vehicle maintenance shop - same deal. He could set his pricing at ridiculously low rates but he also has to have a certain bottom line to remain in existence. If he colluded with 9 or 10 other vehicle maintenance shops to set an artificially low price for brake jobs or something like that, then yeah they could be in trouble. But it would be very difficult to prove. Most smaller businesses have neither the time or energy to expend towards such activities - it's usually very large corporations that do this and even then it's not very rampant.

Gas/fuel pricing - yeah, appears to be fixed but having one son who works in that industry and my brother (who used to) - I can say there is no price fixing. The margins are very tight on fuel and to price yourself a cent or two over your competitor across the street could very well mean a quick loss of customers to that competitor and the loss of the high margin revenues when those customers go into the store to get a pop and chocolate bar is the real stimulus in matching fuel prices to the competitor.

[avishal26]

Can't find the article right now - but weren't there charges laid against a gas station (was it Esso?) for collusion amongst gas stations in an area somewhere in Calgary?

It happened over a few years back in 2006ish time frame but charges were laid in 2010??

[kenny]

Originally posted by speedog
Gas/fuel pricing - yeah, appears to be fixed but having one son who works in that industry and my brother (who used to) - I can say there is no price fixing. The margins are very tight on fuel and to price yourself a cent or two over your competitor across the street could very well mean a quick loss of customers to that competitor and the loss of the high margin revenues when those customers go into the store to get a pop and chocolate bar is the real stimulus in matching fuel prices to the competitor.

There's only no collusion because it can't be proven. With all gas stations displaying their prices and prices between rival stations always moving in tandem, you'd have to be naive to think there is no collusion on gas pricing.

[01RedDX]

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[speedog]

Originally posted by kenny


There's only no collusion because it can't be proven. With all gas stations displaying their prices and prices between rival stations always moving in tandem, you'd have to be naive to think there is no collusion on gas pricing.

The station my son works at - they only change their prices in response to the competitor across the road. No communication is ever made between the two competitors.

[01RedDX]

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[speedog]

Collusion cases usually involev an agreement between two or more parties. In the case of the gas station where my son works at, there has never been any agreement, formal or informal, between the two competitors. My brother, when he was in the gas station business was the same - he only responded to what other stations were charging nearby, not once did he actually speak with or communicate with a nearby competitor.

I could look at the industry I'm in - certain products sell for pretty much the same price anywhere in the city - a price increase comes through and we all will increase our prices to maintain a certain profit margin in that particular product. There is no collusion as I have never called any one of my competitors and said to them, let's set the retail price at this point. A good example - Dog Rock, they generally retail at $20 pretty much all over the city, a few stores will have them at $18 or &19, some boutique shops as much as $27 but 75% of the retail outlets will be at $20. No collusion, just that most shops set their profit margins on a certain product or type of product at a certain level.

Gas stations are the same way, margins are probably pretty consistent from one station to the next with some selling for maybe a cent or two less because of the volume they move and some more expensive because of their location. So if 90% of the stations maintain a certain profit margin, how is that collusion?

[speedog]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
This is the same thing, just paraphrasing - displaying prices (communication) then changing prices in response (collusion.)
You're kind of stretching the definition of communication between the competitors - the signage pricing is for the consumer's benefit. In collusion cases, it's direct communication between the offending companies whether it be a phone call or e-mail/etc..

[Buster]

So you agree that the gas stations or pet store or whatever could not get together to determine the price?

Agreed?

[01RedDX]

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[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
So how do you explain the disconnect between the price of crude and the price at the pump? Two stations across from each other matching prices is a simplistic example, and evidence of outright collusion amongst the big retailers is scarce, so the answer is pretty obvious - speculation.

Speculation goes both ways...and can actually function to smooth prices rather than just inflate them...but not always.

The general consensus seems to be the refinery stage being the determinant of supply.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
So you agree that the gas stations or pet store or whatever could not get together to determine the price?

Agreed? Not sure who you're posing this question to but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. All I can speak to is what I'm well aware of.

[Buster]

Originally posted by speedog
Not sure who you're posing this question to but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. All I can speak to is what I'm well aware of.

I was directing it at you.

What would happen if the gas station owners all got together in public at Humpty's and determined what gas prices would look like for the next year?

[01RedDX]

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[speedog]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
So how do you explain the disconnect between the price of crude and the price at the pump? Two stations across from each other matching prices is a simplistic example, and evidence of outright collusion amongst the big retailers is scarce, so the answer is pretty obvious - speculation.
No different then the disconnect between the prices of various grains and the end products they go into - wheat has been pretty consistent in pricing for the past 10 months and yet I see bread prices swing all over the place from one week to the next. Another example - the Canadian dollar used to be at par some 7-8 months ago - distributors in my industry are just now passing the increased exchange rate onto retailers that they've been eating for the past 5-6 months. Paper products (paper towel, shit tickets, kleenex) - prices move around quite a bit and I suspect there's no absolute correlation to the price of the raw wood that goes into they're production.

[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX



I think it's a far stretch to say that speculation can ever be of any benefit to the consumer. The consensus I've seen among analysts is that speculation is responsible for around 1/3 of the price of gas currently.

people talk about "speculation" like its some boogie man.

Probably the same people have no idea what the world would look like if we had to pay spot price for all of our commodity goods.

"Sir, your big Mac will be $2.50 today. Tomorrow it may be $3.50. Depends on the price of beef of course. hahaha."

[Maxt]

How many refineries do we actually have operational in Alberta right now? Who owns it? Who owns the distribution network?

[Maxt]

Originally posted by speedog
Collusion cases usually involev an agreement between two or more parties. In the case of the gas station where my son works at, there has never been any agreement, formal or informal, between the two competitors. My brother, when he was in the gas station business was the same - he only responded to what other stations were charging nearby, not once did he actually speak with or communicate with a nearby competitor.


When I worked at gas station, 26 years ago(gulp), we use to get a mystery caller that told us what to set the price to.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
I was directing it at you.

What would happen if the gas station owners all got together in public at Humpty's and determined what gas prices would look like for the next year?
There's a better chance of the Flames winning the Stanley Cup before that kind of meeting ever happens. Collusion is usually done between a handful of players who control the majority of some market - re: Canada chocolate story.

So realistically in Calgary, I don't even know if there's a specific kind of product/service to which this could happen. I suppose if company X with 3 locations is selling a unique product that company Y and Z also sell at a handful of locations, then it might be easier to collude as they have the market covered but when you introduce hundreds of small business owners/locations, collusion just isn't going to happen.

[Buster]

Originally posted by speedog

There's a better chance of the Flames winning the Stanley Cup before that kind of meeting ever happens. Collusion is usually done between a handful of players who control the majority of some market - re: Canada chocolate story.

So realistically in Calgary, I don't even know if there's a specific kind of product/service to which this could happen. I suppose if company X with 3 locations is selling a unique product that company Y and Z also sell at a handful of locations, then it might be easier to collude as they have the market covered but when you introduce hundreds of small business owners/locations, collusion just isn't going to happen.

Sigh.

so you're saying that companies are free to set their own pricing, except when they are not?

I mean, you're acknowledging that collusion and price fixing are not permitted, and yet you still don't agree that pricing is not completely up to the market participants?

You realize you are making two mutually exclusive claims?

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Maxt

When I worked at gas station, 26 years ago(gulp), we use to get a mystery caller that told us what to set the price to.

same here.

And if we saw the station across the street change their price, we had to phone in, and report it, and then got the authorization to change our prices too.

Way back in the day, I did the graveyard shift at the Petro Canada at the corner of McKnight and center and had to watch Shell and the Esso like a hawk, especially around 4-5am as that was when most price changes happened.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Maxt
When I worked at gas station, 26 years ago(gulp), we use to get a mystery caller that told us what to set the price to. Franchise location or independently owned/operated? My brother's station was an ESSO branded one, but he controlled the operation including fuel prices - what he didn't control is how much ESSO charged him for the right to have that ESSO sign out there.

I know in my industry that the chain stores, be they large or small, have their prices dictated to them and even which distributors they order from is not of their choice. Independents have much more leeway to play with but at the same time may not realize the economies of scale that chain stores can.

[01RedDX]

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[Buster]

Right, great comparison, an artificial market based on speculative oil futures trading has nothing to do with pricing that is completely removed from reality and is shafting consumers, we're too dumb to understand, gotcha. [/B]

No, I see your point. The problem is that you can only control prices for so long before the supply/demand situation catches up to you and imposes change.

To truly fix the prices of oil, speculation would simply not be effective enough. to do that, you need to control supply. You can ask OPEC how well that has worked for them over the years.

[01RedDX]

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[Buster]

It's the corollary to Godwin's Law...lol

[Maxt]

Originally posted by speedog
Franchise location or independently owned/operated? My brother's station was an ESSO branded one, but he controlled the operation including fuel prices - what he didn't control is how much ESSO charged him for the right to have that ESSO sign out there.

I know in my industry that the chain stores, be they large or small, have their prices dictated to them and even which distributors they order from is not of their choice. Independents have much more leeway to play with but at the same time may not realize the economies of scale that chain stores can.
Franchised location.
I was just reading how gas prices are going up for the Independence Day weekend in the U.S. Some stations are reporting a rise of 2 cents a gallon, oh the horror.

[MGCM]

anyone notice the price didnt jump over the weekend like it normally does? Not quite a holiday weekend but close enough to it.........something seems strange about that:dunno:

o btw, nobody here can change the pricing or the trend so.......stop fighting :thumbsup:

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
Sigh.

so you're saying that companies are free to set their own pricing, except when they are not?

I mean, you're acknowledging that collusion and price fixing are not permitted, and yet you still don't agree that pricing is not completely up to the market participants?

You realize you are making two mutually exclusive claims? You're very good at reading shit into what's not there - I never once stated that collusion and/or price fixing isn't a possibility, just that it's highly unlikely in many instances.

As far as pricing, chain stores have their hands tied quite a bit more tightly by the corporation that owns them or grants them the franchise rights - so for some franchises, they are not able to set their pricing according to the local market while a local independent can easily do this.

After 7+ years of operating our independent business, never once have I set my prices according to what someone else told me - I have margins we wish to meet and prices are set according to that. One difference, if I have product that's not moving or is getting close to a stale date, I can respond very quickly with drastically reduced pricing - something the chains can not easily do if at all.

I really can't figure out why you're finding this all that difficult to understand. A good example, if you wish to open a franchise location under the umbrella of one specific pet food/supplies chain, you are forced to do your ISO (initial stock order) per what the eastern head office deems is appropriate for every location and it is a standard ISO regardless of location - even your store's physical setup is set by the head office. So fast forward, I got to know the owners of a particular franchise location in Calgary and yupp, their ISO included products that they would've never stocked in the Calgary region - products only available in eastern Canada. They can't even move shelves around without the corporation approving it. So they are not free to do as they wish yet an independent like our shop is - comprehend?

[Buster]

Look, as long as we can both agree that the gov't will fine you or throw you in jail for price fixing, and so that restricts your ability to price things...then I'm good with that.

lol

[speedog]

Originally posted by MGCM
anyone notice the price didnt jump over the weekend like it normally does? Not quite a holiday weekend but close enough to it.........something seems strange about that:dunno:

o btw, nobody here can change the pricing or the trend so.......stop fighting :thumbsup:
So we're still what's considered to be the July long weekend and GasBuddy is showing some rapidly declining prices in Calgary down to 120.9-121.9 in some parts of the city and especially in the Shawnessy area - so where are all those long-weekend price gouging proponents? Just means that 40 litres my car will take tonight will save me enough for nice cold drink on the commute home compared to prices in the north end.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Buster
Look, as long as we can both agree that the gov't will fine you or throw you in jail for price fixing, and so that restricts your ability to price things...then I'm good with that.

lol
Can agree on that but I can honestly say that it's never restricted me from pricing things any way I want in our shop - that's because I'm not price fixing, just pricing for what I believe the market will bear. If I were in collusion with 90% of my competitors in setting an artificially contrived price for a certain product(s), then I'd be in trouble but in a free market like Calgary where there's plenty of choice available to the consumer and where there's a glut of entrepreneurs, I don't see price fixing really ever rearing it's ugly head.

[avishal26]

Originally posted by speedog


The station my son works at - they only change their prices in response to the competitor across the road. No communication is ever made between the two competitors.

There is no other way to say this, but if that's the only way your son's gas station (gas station A) changes it prices, then that is dumb. (let's say gas station across the street is gas station B)

If gas station A needs to set its price a $1.25 to keep its profit margin, and sees gas station B set its price at $1.27 (maybe because gas station B filled up its reservoir when gas was more expensive etc.). and subsequently Gas station A increases its price to $1.27 just because the station across the street is doing it - THAT IS COLLUSION! in some form. Gas station A can set its price at $1.25 and take the majority of consumers for that day, but by setting their price at $1.27, they are colluding with station B so that they both get equal business.

[speedog]

Originally posted by avishal26


There is no other way to say this, but if that's the only way your son's gas station (gas station A) changes it prices, then that is dumb. (let's say gas station across the street is gas station B)

If gas station A needs to set its price a $1.25 to keep its profit margin, and sees gas station B set its price at $1.27 (maybe because gas station B filled up its reservoir when gas was more expensive etc.). and subsequently Gas station A increases its price to $1.27 just because the station across the street is doing it - THAT IS COLLUSION! in some form. Gas station A can set its price at $1.25 and take the majority of consumers for that day, but by setting their price at $1.27, they are colluding with station B so that they both get equal business.
Too funny. Collusion involves actual communication between two or more parties in setting a defined price - one station following another's lead is not collusion, no different than if I become aware of my competitor raising their price on a certain item and me, in turn, raising my price to match. Collusion would be me speaking with the competitor and both of us deciding to set both of our prices at a certain level - if there's never any communication between the two parties, then there's no collusion.

Interestingly enough, our business could probably never be accused of collusion as we did away with the silly x.99 cent pricing years ago - everything we sell is priced for the most part at even dollar or 50 cent intervals and not one of our competitors does that.