Mountain Rescue Services Q.

[msommers]

Yesterday we were out hiking Lady MacDonald beside Canmore and on our descent we came across someone who was being airlifted out, for what seemed to be a fairly modest injury (twisted ankle).

This later spawned a bit of discussion about who pays for that airlift service. I believe that if you're in a Park like Yoho or Banff, for example, the Park covers those costs but not an ambulance or STARS-type service. Someone mentioned that you actually had to pay for the service if you didn't have a park pass but required rescue, which didn't seem right.

Given that this situation was outside the park though, I had no idea on how they handle that. Anyone know for sure or have a better idea than I?

As an aside, I can't tell if it'd be exhiliariating or terrifying to be hanging from a cable - we were still about halfway up! You'd be pretty damn high (probably 500-600m above the town initially).

[lasimmon]

I've had a friend be air lifted out after his snowmobile broke down - he had to pay. But that was not in a park so I am unsure whether that makes a difference.

[msommers]

This situation wasn't in the park either, so maybe she did end up having to pay for the service.

How much did you friend have to pay for that?

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by msommers
This situation wasn't in the park either, so maybe she did end up having to pay for the service.

How much did you friend have to pay for that?

This was a few years ago, but I want to say the $1500 - $2000 ball park. Can't remember that well though.

It was the Revelstoke area.

[speedog]

Relative news article dated May 29, 2014 - link (https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/adventurers-rescued-public-services-responsible-covering-cost-195632301.html).

This "pay to be rescued" topic is always hotly debated when ever it's brought up - the defining line between what is acceptable and what is not with respect to the personal danger level of the activities one might participate in is the biggest trigger point in many an argument. Who defines what a dangerous activity is and what an acceptable danger level might be for said activities? Does the locale of said activity have a bearing in such debates? How about the capabilities of the individuals partaking in said activities?

There just isn't any easy answer because what I might consider a risky activity might be perfectly acceptable and normal to others. I don't climb and consider climbing a risky activity - I can admire the feats that climbers accomplish and the physical strength it requires but to me, it's a risky activity. Still I am uncertain as to whether or not an individual partaking in any type of climbing activity should have to pay to be rescued whether they happen to be a 250 pound somewhat out of shape person doing the Middle Sister hike near Canmore which would be but a walk in a park to an experienced hiker or climber..

[msommers]

Interesting take, Speedog, and as a climber I'm 100% on board with you take the risk of scaling a vertical surface, you should be accountable for everything that happens to you. But as a hiker as well, I feel the exact same way and the level risk is considerably less. Essentially, I feel the chance of serious injury or death to be much lower hiking than rock climbing. Ironically, I've suffered more pain from hiking than I ever have from rock climbing lol.

My stance is that the level of risk of the activity is irrelevant and everyone should have to pay. The fact you're willingly in the mountains, a remote area with difficult terrain which therefore requires a specialized service to potentially rescue you, should come with a broad warning for everyone doing any activity in the area.

In words that people can relate to here: you pay to play.

[ExtraSlow]

Would this pay-to-play attitude extend to ambulance ride for people who hurt themselves playing a sport inside the city?

[Canmorite]

My brother was stuck on Ha-Ling a couple years back in Canmore, was airlifted to safety at no cost. He was always with someone else that also got a free ride. They were picked up by Canmore Helicopters though, not STARS.

[speedog]

Originally posted by msommers
Interesting take, Speedog, and as a climber I'm 100% on board with you take the risk of scaling a vertical surface, you should be accountable for everything that happens to you. But as a hiker as well, I feel the exact same way and the level risk is considerably less. Essentially, I feel the chance of serious injury or death to be much lower hiking than rock climbing. Ironically, I've suffered more pain from hiking than I ever have from rock climbing lol.

My stance is that the level of risk of the activity is irrelevant and everyone should have to pay. The fact you're willingly in the mountains, a remote area with difficult terrain which therefore requires a specialized service to potentially rescue you, should come with a broad warning for everyone doing any activity in the area.

In words that people can relate to here: you pay to play.
Why just the mountains though?

One can hike into the canyon on the south side of Bearspaw Reservoir and get one's self into a major world of hurt if one falls on either the trail to/from there or while scrambling about on the cliff faces there. Certainly not mountainous by any means but no ambulance or off-road vehicle is getting into that little canyon and extraction would either be by air or water. One could die there as easily as any mountain hike/climb and as such, how do you set up a system that determines which area(s) require(s) specialized services to potentially rescue a person in distress? In fact, every time our family hikes into that canyon I think about how difficult it would be to get an injured person out of there - even a badly sprained ankle would be a very tough slog back to the parking lot some 2 or so km away in Valley Ridge.

[speedog]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Would this pay-to-play attitude extend to ambulance ride for people who hurt themselves playing a sport inside the city?
For junior and senior high school sports, it already does - got an ambulance bill for the transport my daughter needed to the Children's for a suspected neck injury.

[lasimmon]

You have to pay for an ambulance anyways.. Or your insurance covers it.

[msommers]

An ambulance ride is covered via health insurance (pretty sure), so yeah if you're injured from a sports injury that requires you to be transported to the ER, in any location, then I think you should have to pay for it one way or another.

I just view mountain airlift as a specific type of rescue for a specific type of environment that people (myself included, a lot) willingly put themselves into. Sometimes, shit happens and that's life. And other times, people aren't prepared at all and need to be yanked out. But the choice of being there is your own and any associated costs should also be your own.

Even if the law stated that only climbing was so high risk that your rescue was at your own cost I would still go, and expect all other climbers not to complain if they got a bill because something happened. I guess the cost of potentially getting rescued isn't high enough that it would disway me from doing the activities I love, though I guess not everyone may have that opportunity if everything was cost-based. Hmm.

What's a system you guys think would be better suited?

[blairtruck]

pay up dummies

[mazdavirgin]

Well climbers in general have some pretty strict ethics on when you should be calling for a rescue(AKA if you can still walk/be carried you are getting back out under your own power no matter what)... Hikers on the other hand call when they get lost or it start raining on them or it gets foggy. Then again hikers are typically far less prepared/aware. I believe the stats for rescues still have a huge over representation for hikers/scramblers granted there are far more of them than climbers.

I think the bigger issue though is people having SAR risk their lives trying to long line them off a mountain because they were unprepared and got lost. In those cases yes they should be paying for the rescue.

[Unknown303]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Well climbers in general have some pretty strict ethics on when you should be calling for a rescue(AKA if you can still walk/be carried you are getting back out under your own power no matter what)... Hikers on the other hand call when they get lost or it start raining on them or it gets foggy. Then again hikers are typically far less prepared/aware. I believe the stats for rescues still have a huge over representation for hikers/scramblers granted there are far more of them than climbers.

I think the bigger issue though is people having SAR risk their lives trying to long line them off a mountain because they were unprepared and got lost. In those cases yes they should be paying for the rescue.

Have you ever been rained on when hiking! It's terrible.

[FraserB]

What kind of bitch calls a helicopter for a twisted ankle? Dispatcher should have laughed at them and hung up.

Back country rescue should be pay for use and it shouldn't be cheap. If insurance or outdoors associations want to cover the cost, that's up to them.

[Unknown303]

This is where having that GEOS Search and Rescue package through a SPOT unit is handy.

http://www.findmespot.ca/en/index.php?cid=104

[e31]

Originally posted by Unknown303
This is where having that GEOS Search and Rescue package through a SPOT unit is handy.

Terrible advice. That may introduce a false sense of security; those commercial services do not guarantee any kind of response. Better to have a sensible plan, backup plan, and hit-the-fan plan (which may include a PLB).

[Unknown303]

Originally posted by e31


Terrible advice. That may introduce a false sense of security; those commercial services do not guarantee any kind of response. Better to have a sensible plan, backup plan, and hit-the-fan plan (which may include a PLB).

Yeah as a last ditch effort it's a good plan, I'm not saying to use if for a minor injury or your just to sleepy to finish your climb. :cry:

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Unknown303


Yeah as a last ditch effort it's a good plan, I'm not saying to use if for a minor injury or your just to sleepy to finish your climb. :cry:

Last I was chatting with SAR they were not so keen on the SPOT. Apparently a lot of people accidentally trigger the thing somehow... So much so that this led to design changes in later versions of the SPOT device.

[Unknown303]

The Gen3 units definitely make it harder to press the button by accident.

[The_Penguin]

Originally posted by msommers
An ambulance ride is covered via health insurance (pretty sure),

Unless it's changed since the 70's and 80's I got a bill for both of my rides.

[FraserB]

Depending on your provider it is covered. I know my SunLife benefits through work cover 100% of ambulance fees.

[Adrenaline101]

Here's one for you. Back when I was living back home in the Yukon a couple ( serious adventurists and avid hikers) went out on a multi day trip near the base of Mt. Logan in Kluane National Park. They happened to bring their Bernese Mountain Dog with them just as they always did, I guess at one point it just decided that it didn't want to continue.
These crazy sob's called in a helicopter to get them and the 95lb dog off the mountain, from what I recall the bill was near $5000.


*I know, cool story bro*

[msommers]

Yeah some people spend a lot of money on their pets - whole different discussion lol. I l do love those Bernese Mountain dogs though, beautiful breed but hair machines.

The same day I had wrote Banff Parks inquiring more about the circumstances regarding rescue and this was their reply today:


Hi Matthew,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding rescues in the Mountain Parks. Rescue services are covered for all park pass holders within the National Parks. Rescue services are not covered in the provincial parks such as Kananaskis. In terms of insurance, every plan is different so that is difficult to answer. If you're talking your regular Alberta Health Care, then it would not cover rescue services, but if a person had purchased health insurance independently, it might be covered depending on what they purchased.

Hope that helps!

Kind regards,
KH