F355 Dyno

[soloracer]

Held a dyno day and decided to strap down the F355. Here is the result:

[soloracer]

Was a little concerned about the numbers but found a bunch more F355's dyno'd on the same kind of dyno as mine that showed similar results:

[soloracer]

(Delete this please)

[soloracer]

And another:

[soloracer]

I found a couple others with higher numbers but they were on a different brand of dyno so hard to compare:

[soloracer]

And yet another:

[Redlined_8000]

Not bad for a 3.5L V8. Im sure its a fun ride! Might be a little bit slow at this altitude tho. Maybe 250whp in calgary.

[never]

Originally posted by Redlined_8000
Not bad for a 3.5L V8. Im sure its a fun ride! Might be a little bit slow at this altitude tho. Maybe 250whp in calgary.

If the dyno is in Black Diamond, the elevation is higher there than Calgary. And the pull was corrected so it shouldn't matter much.

[soloracer]

Not sure why that other dynojet sheet showed up wrong. I found a total of three separate sheets that all said the same thing. Here is the third sheet:

[M.alex]

That seems kind of um ... disappointing?

[Cooked Rice]

Not too surprising, they didn't have that much to begin with, kind of an old car.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by M.alex
That seems kind of um ... disappointing?
Only in that i think Ferrari's factory number was probably on the optimistic side. Given the era and the engine size its actually pretty good. Ive been on a dyno with a 30,000.00 small block chevy stroker that only made 10 more rwhp.:nut:

[rage2]

Originally posted by never
If the dyno is in Black Diamond, the elevation is higher there than Calgary. And the pull was corrected so it shouldn't matter much.
I think he's referring to actual power to the ground here, not dyno numbers. Can't get correction in real life without turbo haha.

[never]

Originally posted by rage2

I think he's referring to actual power to the ground here, not dyno numbers. Can't get correction in real life without turbo haha.

Oh maybe. All the OP would have to do to figure that out would be to make a pull in STD, not SAE. But I think the OP was going more for comparison rather than actual power to the ground here.

[benyl]

Crazy how the horsepower wars have made cars like this seem weaksauce.

I think my car makes more power at idle than this.

[Ca_Silvia13]

Originally posted by benyl
Crazy how the horsepower wars have made cars like this seem weaksauce.


I agree, very underwhelming numbers for such a highlight car from my childhood.

[BavarianBeast]

You have some pretty unique cars there soloracer.

Always thought the C4 vette or viper was a better buy in the 90s.

[Hallowed_point]

Where's the torque man?? :D It probably sounds amazing though.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by M.alex
That seems kind of um ... disappointing?

You have to remember the era. The F355 came out in 1995. I did a search for your hero, the Chevy V8, as found in the Corvette at that time and found stock dyno results of 253.69 RWHP, 281.48 torque. And that was from a big old 5.7 litre - not a 3.5 litre like in the F355.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by benyl
Crazy how the horsepower wars have made cars like this seem weaksauce.

I think my car makes more power at idle than this.

Agreed 100%. Amazing how much cars have improved over the last 15 years. We are really living in a time of big, reliable, comfortable and easy to drive horsepower.

[riander5]

Dont listen to the haters... I doubt you were expecting this thing to be a drag racing machine. Id rather have this than my car or a c63 or an m3 or any other calgary civics!

Although the maint. costs would scare me :eek:

[That.Guy.S30]

Erik, I think a S30 L6 3.2 triple carbs can pump out more juice haha
I kid, I kid. Anyways I think I have a lead on a S30 for you.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by That.Guy.S30
Erik, I think a S30 L6 3.2 triple carbs can pump out more juice haha
I kid, I kid. Anyways I think I have a lead on a S30 for you.

Maybe, but only for a short while before the carbs go out of tune and cut the power in half. ;)

PS: My perfect S30 is white with a black interior

[rx7_turbo2]

I'd like to see the numbers with the stock exhaust on.

[BMDUBS]

Wow, so many haters haha

When you drive an F355 its all about the engine and exhaust noise I would think. These have got to be some of the best sounding cars ever.

Soloracer, do you ever go to any shows with this car? I have also been kicking around the idea of getting one of these and would love to check yours out :thumbsup:

[Sentry]

Does it have the F1 gearbox or a normal manual?

I love F355s and can't decide which I'd prefer.

Want to trade cars? My Aristo makes more power and is therefore better. I'd be happy to take that burdensome Ferrari off your hands. :D

[soloracer]

I had it at the European Car Show this summer and have taken it to Cars & Coffee on Tuesdays at the Marda Loop Safeway. I even took it on Wednesday to the Grey Eagle car show.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Any mods to your engine Eric? Obviously challenge exhaust, do those run cats? Stock headers? I was hoping to see 320- 330 out of mine but I guess we'll see.

The 3.5 in the 355 is a crazy engine, dry sump, ITB's, 5 valve per cylinder. The car is about as quick as an e90 m3, it has more top end though so from 150km/hr+ it starts to pull away from the m3.

I've driven everything from 600hp Gallardos to 140hp corolla gts's and the 355 is on the top 5 of best, most fun cars I've ever driven.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
Any mods to your engine Eric? Obviously challenge exhaust, do those run cats? Stock headers? I was hoping to see 320- 330 out of mine but I guess we'll see.

The 3.5 in the 355 is a crazy engine, dry sump, ITB's, 5 valve per cylinder. The car is about as quick as an e90 m3, it has more top end though so from 150km/hr+ it starts to pull away from the m3.

I've driven everything from 600hp Gallardos to 140hp corolla gts's and the 355 is on the top 5 of best, most fun cars I've ever driven.

There were 108 changes to the Challenge cars from the factory. Most had to do with reliability or safety (ie: improved cooling, better braking, suspension, roll cage, etc.) However, on the power side the factory actually sealed and marked the ECU's so they couldn't be tampered with and I believe they kept the engine internals stock. All the challenge cars run the eariler ECU which didn't have as much emissions stuff as the later models. The later model challenge cars were backdated by the factory to the earlier spec.

Ironically, the exhaust on my car isn't the challenge spec. My challenge exhaust is sitting in a box in storage. I think the original owner was concerned about the 355 headers and opted for a custom set up. He used the 360 challenge headers - which don't have the cracking problems - and a custom straight through bullet muffler. However, the custom part was horrible and all cracked up so we had Arlyn weld up a nice stainless exhaust with v-band clamps that goes through some cats, merges into an x-pipe and out through a couple of mufflers. My car no longer runs the bypass that is on the factory cars and reading online that could be affecting my midrange power. Also the 360 headers are larger diameter and I think they might also affect the sound and power output.

As for the dyno, the only sheets I could find that showed results in the 330 range were from the Dyno Dynamics units. I was at first concerend about my results until I looked at other Dynojet numbers that show pretty much exactly what my car put out. I too would be curious what your car makes on the same dyno. I have a few friends with F355's that might also be interested in doing some pulls. One with with a Capristo stage 2 and the other two that are stock. Maybe we can do an F355 dyno day?

[Hallowed_point]

Am I the only one who is confused about the fact that the F355 made substantially more power on a dyno dynamics over a disneyjet? :confused:

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
Am I the only one who is confused about the fact that the F355 made substantially more power on a dyno dynamics over a disneyjet? :confused:

Not too confusing, some dyno's read different than others. Best to compare numbers on the same type of dyno and my understanding is the Dynojet is the most reliable due to the limited amount of user input. Maybe the parameters that were input into the Dyno Dynamics created a higher number? Regardless, it's always best if you can compare on the same dyno, at the same location on the same day. Racing bodies utilize the dynojet to verify power ratings at different locations. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. Not sure what you mean by disneyjet.

[schocker]

Where is the video though :(

[soloracer]

Originally posted by schocker
Where is the video though :(

It's on my camera, but not too thrilling. Just a car sitting on a roller making some noise.

[Hallowed_point]

I won't get into the whole dyno debate, but it's my understanding that dynojet's are happy dynos hence the "disneyjet." I've seen 400 rwhp dynojet cars race -350 rwhp dyno dynamics cars and lose.

A dynojet isn't a load bearing dyno so it doesn't accurately represent what the car will actually put to the pavement on a street.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
I won't get into the whole dyno debate, but it's my understanding that dynojet's are happy dynos hence the "disneyjet." I've seen 400 rwhp dynojet cars race -350 rwhp dyno dynamics cars and lose.

A dynojet isn't a load bearing dyno so it doesn't accurately represent what the car will actually put to the pavement on a street.

Well the actual dyno sheets here disagree with your assessment. As for load bearing, what do you mean? The dynojet we used has the ability to put load on the car for tuning using the eddy current load unit. How would load increase the numbers? Seems sort of counter intuitive. So my car makes more power when it's climbing a hill than when it's driving on flat ground? The only way I could see loading up making a difference is on a turbocharged car that maybe can't get enough load to hit full boost. Maybe then it would read higher. But since my car is NA that isn't the case. I would love to say my car makes 330 rwhp like the Dyno Dynamics units say but that isn't what my dyno sheet says. For the record, we had several stock Porsche's that dyno'd on the same day and all fell within expectations.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by soloracer


I won't get into the whole dyno debate, but it's my understanding that dynojet's are happy dynos hence the "disneyjet." I've seen 400 rwhp dynojet cars race -350 rwhp dyno dynamics cars and lose.

A dynojet isn't a load bearing dyno so it doesn't accurately represent what the car will actually put to the pavement on a street.

PS: Racing has way too many variables to say the HP difference was the reason for a loss. What about tires? Driver ability? Transmision style (dual clutch vs manual)? Then there is the whole thing to do with power under the curve. Peak numbers mean nothing. I had this discussion with a friend who has a supercharged NSX like mine. He makes slightly more peak HP but I walk him with my car. Why? Well mine is a twin screw supercharger and his is a centrifugal. I make more power down low and as a result I am way ahead by the time he gets to full power. Even when he is at full power we are going so fast that the difference is negated by wind resistance. Maybe if we ran for 1/2 an hour he might catch up but most times these pulls only last a few seconds. Pretty easy to explain why you witnessed lower peak HP cars beating higher peak HP cars. No need to assume that it's because the dyno is somehow not accurate.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
I've driven everything from 600hp Gallardos to 140hp corolla gts's and the 355 is on the top 5 of best, most fun cars I've ever driven.
I wouldn't be able to keep my foot out of it.

I'd probably go to jail a couple times.

[Hallowed_point]

^I'm not trying to say it's the whole story (dyno differences) all I'm saying is that dynojet sheets mean little to me in terms of real world horsepower. Of course traction and driver skill come into play auto vs stick etc.

First time I've seen that big of a hp difference between a dynojet and a DD/mustang dyno that's why it caught my eye.

I don't want to sidetrack your thread too much though, post an exhaust video! I love hearing those high revving v8's :drool:

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
^I'm not trying to say it's the whole story (dyno differences) all I'm saying is that dynojet sheets mean little to me in terms of real world horsepower. Of course traction and driver skill come into play auto vs stick etc.

First time I've seen that big of a hp difference between a dynojet and a DD/mustang dyno that's why it caught my eye.

I don't want to sidetrack your thread too much though, post an exhaust video! I love hearing those high revving v8's :drool:

And Dyno Dynamics sheets mean little to me because of the amount of user influence and extrapolation that can occur. Want more power? Change a parameter. Want less? Change a parameter. Better to have a simple machine that is locked down with minimal inputs. How much simpler can you get than spinning a roller of known weight? How much more "real world" can you get?

It might be the first time you have seen these kinds of results but odds are there are more. The only time guys get into the whole dyno comparisons is when they have sheets that read lower than someone elses and then try to make up reasons for it. The reason I went looking for comparative dyno sheets is to see if there was perhaps a problem with my car. So I examined sheets produced on the same "tool/device" that I used and since the numbers are similar I know things are OK.

PS: I'm willing to bet you can't find a stock F355 Dynojet sheet that reads 15% higher than those Dyno Dynamics sheets. I would say the same going the other way (15% lower than the Dynojet sheets) but it's pointless since that is easily done by changing parameters on the Dyno Dynamics units.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Has anyone had any success with running an ems and doing there own custom tune? I would imagine Ferrari does a good job at it but the emissions system out of the 5.2's is annoying. Could I run a challenge ecu on mine or is it not plug and play?

[Hallowed_point]

I've yet to see or hear of Dyno Dynamics/Mustang Dyno owner's modifying inputs to pump up the numbers. Most of them are happy to explain that they read lower than a dynojet as they are for tuning not to impress your buddies at timmies. No reputable tuner would do that as they'd look pretty stupid when their customers get repeatedly destroyed by lower hp comparable vehicles.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
I've yet to see or hear of Dyno Dynamics/Mustang Dyno owner's modifying inputs to pump up the numbers. Most of them are happy to explain that they read lower than a dynojet as they are for tuning not to impress your buddies at timmies. No reputable tuner would do that as they'd look pretty stupid when their customers get repeatedly destroyed by lower hp comparable vehicles.

So dyno your car lower intentionally and then you never have a problem with your car being destroyed by lower hp comparable vehicle? Or maybe dyno low intially to sell a client on your tuning ability or the value of the mods he just made? As a client, I think it much more important to remove as much operator error as possible from the equation. The better machine is the one that requires less data input and records more hard evidence. The reason they read differently has diddly squat to do with "tuning" and everything to do with the operator inputs and how the dyno calculates numbers. The rest is just marketing. Dynojets also have eddy current load units which are used for tuning. Best of both worlds.

Regardless, at the end of the day you should probably only compare numbers on similar machines - preferrably ones that don't suffer from having too much user interface errors.

[Cos]

.

[EM2FTL]

I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but: OP, you have one of the most interesting/awesome combinations of vehicles in your garage that i've ever seen in AB. Well done!

[soloracer]

Originally posted by EM2FTL
I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but: OP, you have one of the most interesting/awesome combinations of vehicles in your garage that i've ever seen in AB. Well done!

Thanks! If I had more room in the sig I could put in the rest of the fleet. It's all over the map taste wise. LOL But you should really see some of the other garages in Calgary. For example, take a tour of Fred Phillips collection and mine will seem like peanuts.

The others are:

73 Volvo p1800ES
53 Kaiser Fraser Manhatten
73 Porsche 914 - widebody project
89 Porsche 944 Turbo
77 Toyota Celica
04 Duramax

Some day I would like to add a MB 190E, Datsun 240z, 996TT or GT3, BMW 3.0 CSL, R32 GTR, Hakosuka & Kenmari GTR.....and the list goes on. That doesn't include the dream cars (F40's, Zonda's, etc.) So many cars, so little time and money. Come on Lotto max! LOL

[Toma]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
I won't get into the whole dyno debate, but it's my understanding that dynojet's are happy dynos hence the "disneyjet." I've seen 400 rwhp dynojet cars race -350 rwhp dyno dynamics cars and lose.

A dynojet isn't a load bearing dyno so it doesn't accurately represent what the car will actually put to the pavement on a street.

Totally. Well known fact dynojet fudged its numbers to basically report engine power

How about a 630whp civic that only really makes 485 lol. That's the worst I have seen....

Having said that, dynodynamics and mustang allow unscrupulous or unknowledgable operators a million ways to cheat numbers. Dynojet as well, but its harder.

[Toma]

Originally posted by soloracer


So dyno your car lower intentionally and then you never have a problem with your car being destroyed by lower hp comparable vehicle? Or maybe dyno low intially to sell a client on your tuning ability or the value of the mods he just made? As a client, I think it much more important to remove as much operator error as possible from the equation. The better machine is the one that requires less data input and records more hard evidence. The reason they read differently has diddly squat to do with "tuning" and everything to do with the operator inputs and how the dyno calculates numbers. The rest is just marketing. Dynojets also have eddy current load units which are used for tuning. Best of both worlds.

Regardless, at the end of the day you should probably only compare numbers on similar machines - preferrably ones that don't suffer from having too much user interface errors.

Depends on purpose of the machine A dynojet is next to useless for tuning. The machines carry too much roller weight ( inertia) for anything meaningful…and the load control is a joke.

And anything that can be calibrated can be fudged. Nature of the game.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Toma


Totally. Well known fact dynojet fudged its numbers to basically report engine power

How about a 630whp civic that only really makes 485 lol. That's the worst I have seen....

Having said that, dynodynamics and mustang allow unscrupulous or unknowledgable operators a million ways to cheat numbers. Dynojet as well, but its harder.


Or the 332 rwhp F355 that only really makes 290. *LOL* How do you explain that? I have yet to find a DynoDynamics sheet that reads 24% less than the above F355 Dynojet sheets. Naturally I assume it could be done - all one would have to do is put in some funny numbers into the DD to spit out the result they want. That is why I dislike using the DynoDynamics. Too much tomfoolery.

In your Civic example did the DD operator know that it was going to/or had been dyno'd by a DJ? If so, it's entirely possible the operator played with the settings just to prove a point. Can't say for sure but it's possible. And that is the issue with the DD. Too much room for manipulation of numbers. It all depends upon what the agenda of the operator is.

Horsepower should be a pretty simple thing to figure out. Take a known weight, move it and spit out the HP number. In my opinion, it's when you input guesstimates of things like car weights and then extrapolate from those guesstimates that errors are introduced. I know you tune on a DD and have a bias against DJ. To each their own. I think the F355 results show that as far as figures go it's a fallacy that one consistantly reads lower or higher than the other.

There have been cases where a DD and DJ actually dyno'd the same on the same day. That is what should be happening. If your DD isn't reading the same as the DJ then you should get it checked or figure out what you are doing wrong. Since the DJ has much less tinkering to play with they tend to be more consistant going from one DJ to the other. Which is why racing sanctioning bodies use them. Consistency. One can have confidence comparing numbers from one DJ to another DJ. With the DD I feel there is too much operator guesswork to really take numbers from one to another seriously.

[rx7_turbo2]

Erik,

The second you saw that clown post back to back you knew better, don't engage him, not worth your time.

I saw a 996TT on your "want to add list" didn't you already own one ;)

[soloracer]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Erik,

The second you saw that clown post back to back you knew better, don't engage him, not worth your time.

I saw a 996TT on your "want to add list" didn't you already own one ;)

I miss that car.....*sniff*

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by soloracer


I miss that car.....*sniff*

You made your choice, now you have to live with it. "It" being a 355 Challenge, must be rough :poosie:

[Toma]

Like I said... Are you deriving meaningful tuning with the machine, or just want a number.

Also, Like I said. Dynojet could not figure out the math, so the decision was made to fudge it. From what I have seen, they have probably had two 'reductions' in the 20 years I've been tuning. Measuring power is really easy if that is all you want. Steady state against a calibrated load cell. Anything else .....

As for dynojet... In the early years, a lot of the testing occurred in Calgary actually. This article explains the fudge, the why, the how, the what, and a cool calgary car or two. http://www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/113_0603_dynojet_chassis_dyno/company_creation.html

http://www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/113_0603_dynojet_chassis_dyno/company_creation.html

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Toma


Depends on purpose of the machine A dynojet is next to useless for tuning. The machines carry too much roller weight ( inertia) for anything meaningful…and the load control is a joke.

And anything that can be calibrated can be fudged. Nature of the game.

I'm sure these guys can't tune....

http://www.dynojet.com/DynoCenters/Dynojet-center-details.aspx?Address=122+Knob+Hill+RdMooresville,NC&ShopOrLocationName=1467&AddressValLat=35.591354&AddressValLong=-80.864613&ShopType=Automotive%20Dyno%20Center

http://www.dynojet.com/DynoCenters/Dynojet-center-details.aspx?Address=%20Cornelius,NC&ShopOrLocationName=715&AddressValLat=35.4868032&AddressValLong=-80.8600736&ShopType=Automotive%20Dyno%20Center

Or just for a list of who's who in North Carolina that use a Dynojet: (Underground Racing, 36 Nascar Officially licensed shops including many of the bigger teams, and many others)

http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/nc.htm



:nut: :nut: :nut: :rolleyes:

[soloracer]

http://blogs.dynojet.com/index.php/2014/04/dynojet-single-roller-vs-twin-roller/

[Toma]

If you actually believe any NASCAR team actually TUNES on a dynojet.... Lol

I was at a cup car engine builders shop as they were testing a new intake design... There was no dynojet in sight. Lol

Try not to confuse early sponsorship with facts.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Argue with Toma on policy and politics but not tuning for God sake. Seriously? :rofl:

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Argue with Toma on policy and politics but not tuning for God sake. Seriously? :rofl:

Lol..yeah. As soon as I hear dynojet mentioned along with some outrageous horsepower claim my ears shut off

[Toma]

He is right though. One of his dynosheets was from the dynoshop. Back in the day, They made it no secret they had 3 different brand dynos at most times, and they were fudged to read within a couple HP of each other.

If the Ferrari was rated 375 factory, and only doing 290s dynojet, they moderately over rated the engine. Simple as that.

375 HP at 8250 rpm would be pushing ~96% ve at peak HP. Pretty optimistic IMO. 5 valve head yes... Minimum quench area though. Tough call. I'd like to dyno one, or see an actual engine dyno with fuel flow and airflow data.

The cars on the Dynamics dyno were obviously modded, or fudged.

If the 375hp rating is accurate, by 'modern' sae standards, it should make right around 300 on my dyno.

[JZS_147]

Originally posted by Toma


Depends on purpose of the machine A dynojet is next to useless for tuning. The machines carry too much roller weight ( inertia) for anything meaningful…and the load control is a joke.

And anything that can be calibrated can be fudged. Nature of the game.

I've used both, the inertia's are a joke to tune on. The new LC2's are eddy current, I wonder how they are.

I think I would still prefer the dd though, tunes come out bang on when you have the ability to simulate road load.

[JZS_147]

Originally posted by Toma

If the 375hp rating is accurate, by 'modern' sae standards, it should make right around 300 on my dyno.

Might read lower on ours since the air temp sensor is in a bad location :poosie:

[soloracer]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Argue with Toma on policy and politics but not tuning for God sake. Seriously? :rofl:

Yes seriously. Once you understand that the man is selling something it's quite easy to see why he has an interest in promoting one product over another. Only the naive would believe that nobody tunes on a Dynojet. Look at the quality of shops that own them and decide for yourself what to believe. I have no skin in the game as I don't owe my living to convincing people that my way is the only way to go. So there is no need for me to make outrageous claims about a competitors product. The main reason I prefer the Dynojet is it removes the potential for BS in fudging numbers to get desired results. A scammer will always pick the tool that is easiest to fake. Even Toma admits there are a million ways to change the readings on a DD. He even questions the two separate DD sheets I posted, from shops a long way apart from each other, instead of admitting the flaw in the DD system which is the way it calculates power with user input. I think both shops with the 320+ HP sheets were honest in their inputs and just the system is flawed. No doubt the DD can be used for tuning - I would never make a claim it couldn't be used. Saying you can't tune on a DJ is just being purposefully obtuse and obviously being a shill for his business.

[rx7_turbo2]

Solo you spend too much time outside the cozy confines of Beyond, you forget Toma's reputation here isn't the same has his reputation out there ;)

[Hallowed_point]

It's a fact that a dyno dynamics/mustang dyno will read lower than a dynojet 9/10 times. I can't believe we are even discussing this!

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
It's a fact that a dyno dynamics/mustang dyno will read lower than a dynojet 9/10 times. I can't believe we are even discussing this!
soloracers last comment was in regards to Toma's claim "dynojets are useless for tuning"

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Hallowed_point
It's a fact that a dyno dynamics/mustang dyno will read lower than a dynojet 9/10 times. I can't believe we are even discussing this!

Apparently not for 355's.....wonder why that is? Perhaps because of the inputs? That is why you can't trust a number spit out by the DD. You can compare DJ sheets and trust them. But with a DD you need to know exactly what the inputs were or the results are garbage.

[Toma]

Originally posted by soloracer


Yes seriously. Once you understand that the man is selling something it's quite easy to see why he has an interest in promoting one product over another. Only the naive would believe that nobody tunes on a Dynojet. Look at the quality of shops that own them and decide for yourself what to believe. I have no skin in the game as I don't owe my living to convincing people that my way is the only way to go. So there is no need for me to make outrageous claims about a competitors product. The main reason I prefer the Dynojet is it removes the potential for BS in fudging numbers to get desired results. A scammer will always pick the tool that is easiest to fake. Even Toma admits there are a million ways to change the readings on a DD. He even questions the two separate DD sheets I posted, from shops a long way apart from each other, instead of admitting the flaw in the DD system which is the way it calculates power with user input. I think both shops with the 320+ HP sheets were honest in their inputs and just the system is flawed. No doubt the DD can be used for tuning - I would never make a claim it couldn't be used. Saying you can't tune on a DJ is just being purposefully obtusfirst obviously being a shill for his business.

Iet me just say this. When I bought my first dyno, I could have bought a brand new dynojet out of Belgrade Montana for under $20k, but i CHOSE to spend close to $35k on a used Mustangdyne.

When I bought my second dyno, the market was much bigger, and I chose a dynodynamics.

If I REALLY ever believed a dynojet was better, I would have a dynojet.

Simple.

The FIRST dyne I ever tuned on was a dynoojet. Immediately, i recognized its shortcomings and came up with a 'wishlist'…and dynojet still isnt xlose.yno

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Toma


Iet me just say this. When I bought my first dyno, I could have bought a brand new dynojet out of Belgrade Montana for under $20k, but i CHOSE to spend close to $35k on a used Mustangdyne.

When I bought my second dyno, the market was much bigger, and I chose a dynodynamics.

If I REALLY ever believed a dynojet was better, I would have a dynojet.

Simple.

The FIRST dyne I ever tuned on was a dynoojet. Immediately, i recognized its shortcomings and came up with a 'wishlist'…and dynojet still isnt xlose.yno

So now you do admit people tune on a Dynojet? And you only "prefer" the Dynodynamics? Thanks for clearing up that bit of misinformation you spouted earlier.

[Toma]

HAHAHAHAHA

Nice attempt at twisting words.

I think i Just figured this all out.

Steve at Davenport called me many years ago wanting to sell me his OLD WORN OUT Dynojet, for like $8k.

Instead, MAXT bought it (rx7_turbfoags best friend), and now, Soloracers shop bought the same used worn out dyno from Maxt ???

hahahhaha

And you guys are calling MY integrity and opinion into question?

This was cute.

I have said what there is to say.

xoxoxox :poosie:

[rx7_turbo2]

Countdown to Toma's owning in 3,2,1 :rofl:

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Toma
Steve at Davenport called me many years ago wanting to sell me his OLD WORN OUT Dynojet, for like $8k.

Instead, MAXT bought it (rx7_turbfoags best friend), and now, Soloracers shop bought the same used worn out dyno from Maxt ???


Ah fuck it I'll break my moratorium on reading Toma's posts.

1) soloracer doesn't own/run any shop of any kind, and doesn't own a dyno either.

2) Maxt doesn't own Davenports "OLD WORN OUT DYNO"

3) I'm not homosexual. Must have struck a nerve if you feel applying that derogatory term to my username appropriate. Certainly shows your true colours though. "rx7_turbfoags"

Toma wrong? Who knew it was possible? :rofl:

[JZS_147]

Originally posted by soloracer


Apparently not for 355's.....wonder why that is? Perhaps because of the inputs? That is why you can't trust a number spit out by the DD. You can compare DJ sheets and trust them. But with a DD you need to know exactly what the inputs were or the results are garbage.

There's a ton of correction factors you can change in Dynojet to fudge numbers as well.

[JZS_147]

Originally posted by soloracer


Yes seriously. Once you understand that the man is selling something it's quite easy to see why he has an interest in promoting one product over another. Only the naive would believe that nobody tunes on a Dynojet. Look at the quality of shops that own them and decide for yourself what to believe. I have no skin in the game as I don't owe my living to convincing people that my way is the only way to go. So there is no need for me to make outrageous claims about a competitors product. The main reason I prefer the Dynojet is it removes the potential for BS in fudging numbers to get desired results. A scammer will always pick the tool that is easiest to fake. Even Toma admits there are a million ways to change the readings on a DD. He even questions the two separate DD sheets I posted, from shops a long way apart from each other, instead of admitting the flaw in the DD system which is the way it calculates power with user input. I think both shops with the 320+ HP sheets were honest in their inputs and just the system is flawed. No doubt the DD can be used for tuning - I would never make a claim it couldn't be used. Saying you can't tune on a DJ is just being purposefully obtuse and obviously being a shill for his business.


I think you're taking this the wrong way, not everyone is out to scam you. Toma's not trying to sell anyone anything.

Toma is 100% correct that most reputable tuners will choose to use a Mustang or DD dyno as they are a BETTER tuning tool than a Dynojet.

On the dyno you're optimizing the car for the conditions it's going to see on the road. If you can't hit those areas of the map due to improper load, how are you supposed to accurately measure the force in that area and optimize it? With a Dynojet, it's a guess. Which is why every tuner that tunes on one has to also take the car on the street to "touch up" the map (if they care about their tune being good).

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by JZS_147
On the dyno you're optimizing the car for the conditions it's going to see on the road. If you can't hit those areas of the map due to improper load, how are you supposed to accurately measure the force in that area and optimize it?

Is this true of the DJ utilizing eddy current?

[JZS_147]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Is this true of the DJ utilizing eddy current?

No, just inertia.

I've never used the new LC2's so I can't say how good or bad they are. If they can only steady state up to 250ft.lbs of torque then yes they're useless.

Single retarder DD does 600 and dual retarder does 1200 for steady state. 1200 and 2400 on full runs.

[JZS_147]

sDwjfZvmPHg

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Toma
HAHAHAHAHA

Nice attempt at twisting words.

I think i Just figured this all out.

Steve at Davenport called me many years ago wanting to sell me his OLD WORN OUT Dynojet, for like $8k.

Instead, MAXT bought it (rx7_turbfoags best friend), and now, Soloracers shop bought the same used worn out dyno from Maxt ???

hahahhaha

And you guys are calling MY integrity and opinion into question?

This was cute.

I have said what there is to say.

xoxoxox :poosie:


Not twisting your words. Just quoting them back to you. As for your integrity, it was lost the minute you posted that people don't use Dynojets to tune. All you had to say was that people do tune on them but you prefer the DynoDynamics and then gave your reasons. That would have been a more honest statement. But in my opinion honesty and integrity aren't your strong suit. Anyone who has read your political rants can attest to that.

Now as for the rest of the garbage you posted above, I have never spoken to you so I will have to assume whomever is giving you information really doesn't know me or they wouldn't have told you the above untruths about me.

Over 5-7 years ago MaxT and I together bought the Davenport dyno. For those that don't know - when Toma calls it "worn out" he's referring to the knearling on the drum. The drums are etched to give maximum grip to your tires. Over the years of use this knearling gets worn down and on high HP cars can result it more tire spin. So why did we buy it? The price was right and we thought it would be fun to play with. MaxT didn't have a place to put it so we set it up in my garage. We dyno'd a few cars and shortly afterwards it was sold to some guys from Quebec. I assume that is where it still is. MaxT then bought another Dynojet - but this time brand new one from the factory with eddy control and the latest electronics. It's over at his garage and I have zero (nil) financial or other interest in it or his business. Not nearly the smoking gun that Toma seems to think other than after using one I really like the fact that the results a Dynojet spit out are free of user interference and can be trusted.

So for the record, I don't own a dyno and I don't own a "shop" other than my oversized garage that I use to store and work on my own cars. As I said, I don't have any skin in the game so I don't need to convince anyone one way or the other to support a business.

All I am saying is that I prefer the Dynojet because the operator cannot influence the numbers like they can on a Mustang or DynoDynamics unit. The DynoDynamics can be used for tuning but you had better trust your operator implicitly because he can fudge the figures to get whatever results he thinks you either want to see or perhaps the results that will lead him to the path of the most money. I also know for a fact that if your engine blows on the dyno or shortly there after you can't blame the type of device that was used to tune it - no matter if it's a DynoDynamics or Dynojet. So pick your tuner carefully and take into consideration the tools they use.

Back to the start of this thread which was about comparing dyno sheets on the web. The only ones that you can realistically compare when you don't know the operator are Dynojet sheets. This is because they have minimal ways to change the final numbers. That is why they are used to verify power by racing bodies. On the other hand, the numbers on a DynoDynamics sheet can be fudged so massively by the operator, intentionally or accidentally, that you have to take them with a grain of salt. Think of them more like an etch-a sketch.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by JZS_147
sDwjfZvmPHg

Awesome! Exactly what I was talking about. Thanks for the post.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by JZS_147


No, just inertia.

I've never used the new LC2's so I can't say how good or bad they are. If they can only steady state up to 250ft.lbs of torque then yes they're useless.

Single retarder DD does 600 and dual retarder does 1200 for steady state. 1200 and 2400 on full runs.

I appreciate your stance and at least you admit not to using the newer LC2's instead of saying obviously ridiculous things like Toma. I suspect you also don't support his statement that nobody tunes on a Dynojet. As for the comment about the load control, does this help? (right from the dynojet website)

The 424xLC2 features 2 x 24" knurled, precision balanced drums, 2x Eddy Current Load Absorption Units, measures up to 2000 hp, 2000 ft. lbs, 200 mph, and is capable of 1600hp peak absorption (in AWD) making it the most powerful load control dynamometer on the market.

[rx7_turbo2]

Let's get this back on topic.

How much work to get the Ferrari engineered exhaust back on? I'd love to see if there's an increase in HP there. Exhaust swap/Smorg?

[sr20s14zenki]

Any real car enthusiast would not just trust what their tuner told them. Go run your car and see what mph you run...pretty simple.

After Toma tuned my 2jz, i took it to the track. We got 502whp out of it, and it ran almost 130 mph...i need a bit of a driver mod, so its pretty much spot on. Toma knows his shit when it comes to tuning, and id like to say hes one of the most honest people out there hands down. While i do not agree with most of his political views, or most of anything he says :poosie: I DO trust his tuning 100%

[rx7_turbo2]

The thread wasn't about Toma. It was comparing dyno results of a local 355 Challenge car to others. Toma prefers the DD machine that he owns and makes a living with, not a real shocker, not sure why he saw a need to shit on the machine that soloracer used :dunno:

[sr20s14zenki]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
The thread wasn't about Toma. It was comparing dyno results of a local 355 Challenge car to others. Toma prefers the DD machine that he owns and makes a living with, not a real shocker, not sure why he saw a need to shit on the machine that soloracer used :dunno:

Fair enough.

I was more or less saying that if you really want to find out what your car has for power, hit the quater mile. Those numbers dont lie, unless you are an absolutely terrible driver, in which case, get a prius. (=

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by sr20s14zenki


Fair enough.

I was more or less saying that if you really want to find out what your car has for power, hit the quater mile. Those numbers dont lie, unless you are an absolutely terrible driver, in which case, get a prius. (=

1/4 mile time can be manipulated too, gearing, slicks etc. I've seen 250whp cars run quicker times that 350whp because of their setup.

I've learnt that chasing a number on a dyno is like trying sleep with your dream girl. You throw time and money at her only to be let down and frustrated while your friends make fun of you.

[sr20s14zenki]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2


1/4 mile time can be manipulated too, gearing, slicks etc. I've seen 250whp cars run quicker times that 350whp because of their setup.

I've learnt that chasing a number on a dyno is like trying sleep with your dream girl. You throw time and money at her only to be let down and frustrated while your friends make fun of you.

Very true. I just use a calculator like this one to get a rough estimate

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

I suck at math...lol. But i ran 128 mph with a 1.70s 60', in a 3000lb car. That pretty much comes out EXACTLY at what i made for WHP.

I get a kick out of guys having dyno number wars haha. Dyno is a tuning tool, and thats it. Period.

[Toma]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
The thread wasn't about Toma. It was comparing dyno results of a local 355 Challenge car to others. Toma prefers the DD machine that he owns and makes a living with, not a real shocker, not sure why he saw a need to shit on the machine that soloracer used :dunno:

You made this about me when you suggested my integrity is in question, when you said I prefer DD because I own it rather than choosing to own it because I prefer it.

Ignorant Douche bag.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Toma
You made this about me when you suggested my integrity is in question, when you said I prefer DD because I own it rather than choosing to own it because I prefer it.

Ignorant Douche bag.

Huh :dunno:

I know you don't like me, but at least don't like me for something I actually said ;) Maybe you read someone else's post and assumed it was mine?

You bought a DD machine. You made that decision based on a myriad of reasons I'm sure, that makes it your preferred machine, you bought the machine you prefer, no argument from me on that issue.

I said and I'll paraphrase here, your reputation here on Beyond isn't what it is outside Beyond. I was simply trying to convey the idea that you walk on water in here and that arguing with you about dynos within these confines is pointless. I guess to be fair Hallowed derailed the thread but it was you who really took it off the rails

Calling me an ignorant douchebag is probably accurate actually.

[Redlined_8000]

Originally posted by riander5
Dont listen to the haters... I doubt you were expecting this thing to be a drag racing machine. Id rather have this than my car or a c63 or an m3 or any other calgary civics!

Although the maint. costs would scare me :eek:


Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Still puts up impressive numbers, certainly nothing to sneeze at!

That Hellcat might be making 700+ horsepower, but I'd take a F355 any day of the week

Thanks for sharing!


So just wanted to say that a car like a Ferrari 355 is in a way different category than a C63 or a Hellcat. People that buy a used ferrari 355 most likely would use it as a super fun weekend only car. The c63 and hellcat are cars that people will drive more and more often IMO.

Also no I would not replace my C63 (or a Hellcat) with a 355. I also really question people that claim this... Like really, assuming the same price, you would buy a 355 over a c63 or a hellcat? Why? lol. The c63 and hellcat have warranty, and wont cost nearly as much to maintain. And you can drive them way more often.

[That.Guy.S30]

Originally posted by Redlined_8000





So just wanted to say that a car like a Ferrari 355 is in a way different category than a C63 or a Hellcat. People that buy a used ferrari 355 most likely would use it as a super fun weekend only car. The c63 and hellcat are cars that people will drive more and more often IMO.

Also no I would not replace my C63 (or a Hellcat) with a 355. I also really question people that claim this... Like really, assuming the same price, you would buy a 355 over a c63 or a hellcat? Why? lol. The c63 and hellcat have warranty, and wont cost nearly as much to maintain. And you can drive them way more often.
Edit: can't read

[Cody D]

Mmmm... Ferrari 355 Challenge.

http://i.imgur.com/6Kt1nZb.jpg

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Cody D
Mmmm... Ferrari 355 Challenge.

http://i.imgur.com/6Kt1nZb.jpg
:clap: Yes!!! Back on topic.

[That.Guy.S30]

Erik, trade you the Z for the 'rarri' for a day!! lol

oh btw: that Hako GTR sold for 220K USD last month. Maybe a GTR clone for you hahaah. or that lottomax

[Sugarphreak]

...

[mrsingh]

Originally posted by Cody D
Mmmm... Ferrari 355 Challenge.

http://i.imgur.com/6Kt1nZb.jpg

Mmmm, those would both be in my dream garage.

[rx7_turbo2]

The repair/maintenance costs of the Challenge would scare me, maybe my fear is unjustified Erik could speak to that.

I'm not sure the 355 and a Hellcat should really be in the same conversation, just two ends of the spectrum._Both say something about their owners though.

[M.alex]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[soloracer]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
The repair/maintenance costs of the Challenge would scare me, maybe my fear is unjustified Erik could speak to that.

I'm not sure the 355 and a Hellcat should really be in the same conversation, just two ends of the spectrum._Both say something about their owners though.

I have had the F355 for two summers now and so far have not had any huge expensive things go wrong. The biggest issues were fluid leaks but thanks to help from friends most have been fixed.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

I think a lot of people who argue about "my car makes this much power, and my car runs this much faster" forget that it's more important to drive something you find fun that to drive the fastest car in my opinion.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
I think a lot of people who argue about "my car makes this much power, and my car runs this much faster" forget that it's more important to drive something you find fun that to drive the fastest car in my opinion.

Erik and I discussed that when he first bought the challenge car. Will a well sorted civic with a built motor and decent turbo out run the Challenge car from a dead stop? Oh probably, but he's in a civic and you're in a Ferrari so who cares :dunno:

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
I guess to be fair Hallowed derailed the thread but it was you who really took it off the rails Derailed the thread? What I posted was quite relevant I think. There was an obvious discrepancy and I wanted to clear the air on that.