Germany Eliminates Tuition Fees

[msommers]

Tuition fees are a thing of the past in Germany, to both German and International students!



Prospective students in the United States who can’t afford to pay for college or don’t want to rack up tens of thousands in student debt should try their luck in Germany. Higher education is now free throughout the country, even for international students. Yesterday, Lower Saxony became the last of seven German states to abolish tuition fees, which were already extremely low compared to those paid in the United States.





German universities only began charging for tuition in 2006, when the German Constitutional Court ruled that limited fees, combined with loans, were not in conflict the country’s commitment to universal education. The measure proved unpopular, however, and German states that had instituted fees began dropping them one by one.

“We got rid of tuition fees because we do not want higher education which depends on the wealth of the parents,” Gabrielle Heinen-Kjajic, the minister for science and culture in Lower Saxony, said in a statement. Her words were echoed by many in the German government. “Tuition fees are unjust,” said Hamburg’s senator for science Dorothee Stapelfeldt. “They discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up study. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”

Compared to American students, Germans barely had to pay for undergraduate study even before tuition fees were abolished. Semester fees averaged around €500 ($630) and students were entitled to many perks, such as cheap (often free) transportation within and between cities.

Free education is a concept that is embraced in most of Europe with notable exceptions like the U.K., where the government voted to lift the cap on university fees in 2010. The measure has reportedly cost more money than it brought in. The Guardian reported in March that students are failing to pay back student loans at such a rate that “the government will lose more money than it would have saved from keeping the old £3,000 ($4,865) tuition fee system.”

UK students often compare their plight to their American counterparts, but most Americans would be fortunate to pay as little as the British do: a maximum of $14,550 per year. High tuition fees in the U.S. have caused student loan debt, which stands at $1.2 trillion, to spiral out of control. It is now the second-highest form of consumer debt in the country. According to the Institute for College Access and Success, two thirds of American college students will leave their alma mater in significant debt (averaging at $26,600).

While there are many government measures that could ease the massive burden of student debt, some straightforward steps could make higher education accessible to all. Tennessee, for example, recently voted to make two-year colleges free for all high school graduates. The U.S. as whole could take a note from Germany and make public universities free with relative ease. The government spends around $69 billion subsidizing college education and another $107.4 billion on student loans. Tuition at all public universities comes to much less than that, around $62.6 billion in 2012. By restructuring the education budget, the cost of attending public universities could easily be brought down to zero. This would also put pressure on private universities to lower their cost in order to be more competitive.

At least for now, however, learning German might be the best financial choice an American high school student can make.

Joaquim is an intern at ThinkProgress.



Sourece: http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/10/01/3574551/germany-free-college-tuition/

Hopefully this is a trend that can make its way over to Canada. Free advanced learning is beneficial to an entire society. But I wonder if push comes to shove and we have to vote, how many Canadians are willing to have their taxes increased to accommodate? I certainly wouldn't mind.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by msommers


Hopefully this is a trend that can make its way over to Canada. Free advanced learning is beneficial to an entire society.

I would like to say I agree, but pretty much every friend from highschool who's parents paid for their university, wasted their entire education, and none of them actually work in the field or area that they initially went in for.

It would just seem like a huge waste of tax dollars for all these kids to be in school for no reason.

[msommers]

And that's a fair concern to have. But look at countries with present free tuition. Is everyone fucking around?

[Go4Long]

How would you recommend paying for this?

Germany's corporate tax rate is just about 30%

You could federalize post secondary education, but given our governments awesome ability to spend a thousand where a hundred will do I see is getting taxed out the ass to provide mediocre education.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by msommers
And that's a fair concern to have. But look at countries with present free tuition. Is everyone fucking around?

Though far from a scientific observation; based on a friends account of going to school in a country where this is offered that's exactly what happens. There's no personal commitment.

I'd gladly support student loan forgiveness based on performance in a program, etc but I'd be very against free tuition upfront.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Go4Long
How would you recommend paying for this?


Legalized prostitution and sex tourists? :rofl:

Warning: Video may be NFSW, been a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUBQLPgQ2RA

[blitz]

I think Canada has a good balance going for Post Secondary. Enough subsidization to make it obtainable for the average Joe, but enough to give you pause before you jump into something (at least for people whose parents aren't paying).

The US and most of Europe are polar opposites of each other and Canada slots somewhere in the middle.

If the government did cover tuition I'd want:

- 5 year max on finishing any standard degree (1 year of leeway for switching programs/dropping courses).
- If you leave Canada to work abroad you have to pay a portion of the money back
- Interview/skills competition for arts programs

[Nitro5]

Would only work if we had a dual system like the Germans where at a young age you are pushed towards academic or trade education based on your skills.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Go4Long
How would you recommend paying for this?

Germany's corporate tax rate is just about 30%



Well I guess I'd respond to that by another question. Is Germany now or less supporting itself plus the EU? How did they get there? Was the foundation of that from higher learning or something else?

I guess I look at Scandinavia and see they're not exactly hurting and think, why is that? Not rhetorical BTW.

[AG_Styles]

Keep in mind the actual teaching in Germany is in itself different.

The way the PHD and MSc programs are run are also more workforce oriented as opposed to research-only like in Canada. The grad programs there push their students to work with companies on creating and researching viable products; and their pipeline is very close in resembling what operations are like in the workplace.
Research in Canada however, is structured towards writing papers and papers and papers. As a professor, if you don't release X amount of papers per year, you're out and fired. Thus, reflecting the quality of education itself here where again, I say post-secondary institutions like the UofC are research oriented; putting teaching in the backseat. But that's the way things are.

It's not the cost itself that will have to change, but the entire way to structuring grad and undergrad programs. Don't like it? Well, stop sending kids to Universities in Canada because that's the only way it'll change.

[Feruk]

My problem with higher education in Canada is that employers will preferentially pick someone with a degree over someone out of high school even if the degree has fuck all to do with the job. You don't need 100+ Canadian History majors every year... What we need to do is lower the number of people that can get into universities and make it culturally acceptable not to have a post-secondary degree. However, the deciding point should be marks and not what daddy has in the bank. I 100% agree in completely free university education.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Feruk
My problem with higher education in Canada is that employers will preferentially pick someone with a degree over someone out of high school even if the degree has fuck all to do with the job. You don't need 100+ Canadian History majors every year... What we need to do is lower the number of people that can get into universities and make it culturally acceptable not to have a post-secondary degree. However, the deciding point should be marks and not what daddy has in the bank. I 100% agree in completely free university education.

As has been said, part of the german (and australian, for another example) systems push people into more blue collar (trades) or white collar (degree/office) type of jobs.

Which is fine, I believe it is a necessary evil. While I love the freedom our system gives us to do whatever we want, most people choose what they are good at/can be successful at. Some people squander massive resources to dick around for 5 years. :dunno:

[D88]

The downside is that Germany pays 22% in sales tax and and something like 40% of their pay cheques immediately goes to the government. If you use the social services a lot then it sounds good but if you don't (most will not use what they put into them) then you're basically paying your hard earned money to everyone else.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Feruk
My problem with higher education in Canada is that employers will preferentially pick someone with a degree over someone out of high school even if the degree has fuck all to do with the job. You don't need 100+ Canadian History majors every year... What we need to do is lower the number of people that can get into universities and make it culturally acceptable not to have a post-secondary degree. However, the deciding point should be marks and not what daddy has in the bank. I 100% agree in completely free university education. So, hiring someone that has proven they have the discipline to see through several years of post secondary education vs someone that just emerged from a school system where "no child is left behind" is a problem for you?

[flipstah]

Originally posted by AG_Styles
Keep in mind the actual teaching in Germany is in itself different.

The way the PHD and MSc programs are run are also more workforce oriented as opposed to research-only like in Canada. The grad programs there push their students to work with companies on creating and researching viable products; and their pipeline is very close in resembling what operations are like in the workplace.
Research in Canada however, is structured towards writing papers and papers and papers. As a professor, if you don't release X amount of papers per year, you're out and fired. Thus, reflecting the quality of education itself here where again, I say post-secondary institutions like the UofC are research oriented; putting teaching in the backseat. But that's the way things are.

It's not the cost itself that will have to change, but the entire way to structuring grad and undergrad programs. Don't like it? Well, stop sending kids to Universities in Canada because that's the only way it'll change.

+1. I'd only support free education if we, as a society, can quickly benefit from it through viable products and a smarter workforce.

[killramos]

Myself, I am all for making High School more difficult and relevant instead. The fact that people can graduate high school without understanding progressive tax rates is :facepalm:

We have every child as a captive audience for 12 years. Lets try and do something productive with that time.

Let University be something for people who are actually pursuing a higher level rather than bare minimum.

If that means making high school go to 14 grades or something stupid so be it. Hell you could even "major" in something out of high school. most kids have half a year of spares etc in high school i am pretty sure we could cram some more knowledge into their dimwitted skulls. Tons of people think we coddle kids through school to much anyways, you actually used to learn more in school 20 years ago.

Sounds alot cheaper than free tuition at private universities...

Lets face it the real problem is a huge proportion of university students are doing it for the "experience" of going to university. As in getting drunk, having sex, and sleeping 18 hours a day. Not sure why we are rushing to subsidize that.

/rant

[Feruk]

Originally posted by codetrap
So, hiring someone that has proven they have the discipline to see through several years of post secondary education vs someone that just emerged from a school system where "no child is left behind" is a problem for you?
Several years doing what exactly? Spending their parents' $30K to dick around, get drunk, and become semi-knowledgeable in Greek and Roman studies?? Don't kid yourself, most university degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on. If you don't want to hire someone because they're 18, I get that, maturity issue. But to insinuate that it has anything to do with some bullshit degree that any high school drop out could get is obsurd.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by killramos
Myself, I am all for making High School more difficult and relevant instead. The fact that people can graduate high school without understanding progressive tax rates is :facepalm:
How about Mortgages and car loans. Shit, even understanding payday loans would be a great start. the fact that those are so popular is proof our our failure as a society to educate people.

[killramos]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

How about Mortgages and car loans. Shit, even understanding payday loans would be a great start. the fact that those are so popular is proof our our failure as a society to educate people.

Yup, High school is not even mildly difficult. Way to much of a focus on useless things as well.

University should be a specialized place for people to pursue a profession career.

[icky2unk]

Originally posted by Feruk

Several years doing what exactly? Spending their parents' $30K to dick around, get drunk, and become semi-knowledgeable in Greek and Roman studies?? Don't kid yourself, most university degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on. If you don't want to hire someone because they're 18, I get that, maturity issue. But to insinuate that it has anything to do with some bullshit degree that any high school drop out could get is obsurd.

Why so butthurt?

[Inzane]

Originally posted by msommers
Tuition fees are a thing of the past in Germany, to both German and International students!



Sourece: http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/10/01/3574551/germany-free-college-tuition/

Shhhhh! Nobody mention a bloody word to Quebec'ers about this.

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

even understanding payday loans would be a great start. the fact that those are so popular is proof our our failure as a society to educate people.

$500 for $20 inital investment, what's the problem?
Then I took that $500 over to money mart and invested it again and got $2000.

I think it's great that Germany is trying to groom their young citizens into the labor force. This professional student status through governement grants should be ended. These "studies" on if you fart 20 times a day, can you live longer than someone who only eats dark chocolate are tiresome and gets society nowhere.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by icky2unk
Why so butthurt?
Getting closer and closer to potentially having to pay that $30K for kid's useless degree.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Feruk
Several years doing what exactly? Spending their parents' $30K to dick around, get drunk, and become semi-knowledgeable in Greek and Roman studies?? Don't kid yourself, most university degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on. If you don't want to hire someone because they're 18, I get that, maturity issue. But to insinuate that it has anything to do with some bullshit degree that any high school drop out could get is obsurd. You and I must have gone to difference types of post secondary. I had to work my ass off. I did some dicking around, a little drinking, but I still had to attend classes and I still had to write exams, or I didn't pass.

I'm sorry you're feeling like you're going to have to spend 30k for a useless degree, but nobody is holding a gun to your head to write a cheque for your kid to party.

[killramos]

Originally posted by codetrap
You and I must have gone to difference types of post secondary. I had to work my ass off. I did some dicking around, a little drinking, but I still had to attend classes and I still had to write exams, or I didn't pass.

I'm sorry you're feeling like you're going to have to spend 30k for a useless degree, but nobody is holding a gun to your head to write a cheque for your kid to party.

I think he is implying that encouraging this will lead to Canada making tuition free ( ie make every taxpayer pay for it) means exactly that someone will hold a gun to his head to make him help pay for EVERYONES kid to go to party lol.

You are also kidding yourself if you think the average post secondary student works their ass off :nut:

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by codetrap
You and I must have gone to difference types of post secondary. I had to work my ass off. I did some dicking around, a little drinking, but I still had to attend classes and I still had to write exams, or I didn't pass.

I'm sorry you're feeling like you're going to have to spend 30k for a useless degree, but nobody is holding a gun to your head to write a cheque for your kid to party.

Im with Feruk. I've essentially been on and off both UofA campus and NAIT campus for the past 6 years of my life.

A large portion (I will not say majority) do exactly what Feruk says. The MAJORITY of degrees given nowadays take 5 years instead of 4, and I would say that a large part of it is because they don't do anything but drink their lives away the first year.

It is stupid, irresponsible, and goes to show how easy university education is to obtain in this country. I have a hard time accepting paying for that out of my own pocket, which is why I like the way the current system is.

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by Feruk

Several years doing what exactly? Spending their parents' $30K to dick around, get drunk, and become semi-knowledgeable in Greek and Roman studies?? Don't kid yourself, most university degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on. If you don't want to hire someone because they're 18, I get that, maturity issue. But to insinuate that it has anything to do with some bullshit degree that any high school drop out could get is obsurd.

Idiot.

[Type_S1]

If they make post secondary free they better cut every damn BS arts program out of post secondary. What should happen is that those who successfully complete post secondary with an XX grade and get a job in the field they studied should be reimbursed a portion or all of their tuition. And let's clarify, post secondary does not mean getting an administration diploma at SAIT.

[msommers]

An interesting overview WRT free tuition in Canada:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/01/tuition-fees-germany-canada_n_5915500.html

[Feruk]

Originally posted by codetrap
You and I must have gone to difference types of post secondary. I had to work my ass off. I did some dicking around, a little drinking, but I still had to attend classes and I still had to write exams, or I didn't pass.

I'm sorry you're feeling like you're going to have to spend 30k for a useless degree, but nobody is holding a gun to your head to write a cheque for your kid to party.
I had to work my ass off in engineering at U of C. But I am far from the norm. I took a few classes outside my discipline and realized how tough it was to get anything below a B+. Oh no an "opinion essay" or another "tough multiple choice exam." You really had to try to underperform. Obviously lots of exceptions to this apply and I'm not saying everything is super easy, but a lot of it is.

As for "not holding a gun to my head", incorrect. Lots of entry level office jobs ask for a degree. They don't give a crap what the degree is in, but they'd like to see one. This is the gun to my head. A friend of mine has a job in payroll. How'd he get it? His CANADIAN HISTORY degree!


Originally posted by FixedGear
Idiot.
The foreign language majors emerge. :rofl:


Originally posted by HiTempguy1
A large portion (I will not say majority) do exactly what Feruk says. The MAJORITY of degrees given nowadays take 5 years instead of 4, and I would say that a large part of it is because they don't do anything but drink their lives away the first year.
Exactly. To add... It would be fine if they passed and walked out with a useful piece of paper. But this isn't often the case.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Feruk

I had to work my ass off in engineering at U of C. But I am far from the norm. I took a few classes outside my discipline and realized how tough it was to get anything below a B+. Oh no an "opinion essay" or another "tough multiple choice exam." You really had to try to underperform. Obviously lots of exceptions to this apply and I'm not saying everything is super easy, but a lot of it is.

As for "not holding a gun to my head", incorrect. Lots of entry level office jobs ask for a degree. They don't give a crap what the degree is in, but they'd like to see one. This is the gun to my head. A friend of mine has a job in payroll. How'd he get it? His CANADIAN HISTORY degree!


The foreign language majors emerge. :rofl:

Exactly. To add... It would be fine if they passed and walked out with a useful piece of paper. But this isn't often the case.

Damn engineers whining about how much harder their degree's are!:poosie:

When i was in Res genuinely stupid people would party 3-4 times a week on my floor while i had 2-3 hours a work a night (which is what was left over after i worked my ass off to finnish work in tutorial sessions). I had work to do on weekends as well. People on my floor thought i was an overachiever student while in reality i was just doing what i needed to keep up with the material. I was no deans list student which some of the history major partiers were :nut: . I also had 1-2 midterms in each of my 6 courses

What i found funny was when exams rolled around I would continue at about the same pace (studied during what would have normally been class time) and all the sudden i was the "partier" on the floor.

Why? Because while everyone else was completely incapable of doing work and freaking out about their exams i was already used to working my ass off from the last 4 months. To me exams felt like free time :dunno:

Not that I am trying to place engineers on a pedastle there were math, chem etc majors who worked even harder than me ( they actually made honor roll lol). Mostly i am calling out arts students for thinking their degrees are difficult and that they worked hard.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Type_S1
And let's clarify, post secondary does not mean getting an administration diploma at SAIT.

Well f*&k you too! (kidding, sort of).

Not that I have an administration diploma, but the diploma route is a necessary part of the post secondary education system and helps employers hire qualified individuals who have the right skills/knowledge/experience for the position they are looking to fill.

I have a friend who received a one year administration certificate from RDC, which helped her land a job with Servus and RBC. The job at RBC was in their investment division (in an administrative position), but she was handling a LOT of the more standardized/every day tasks associated with that field. Why isn't that post secondary education?

As an Engineering Technologist, you may understand why I take offense to your position ;)

[Type_S1]

engineers making themselves feel so hard done by again and again. Shit, I'd love if scoring a 30% on an exam in some of my classes was a pass! :dunno:

[killramos]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Well f*&k you too! (kidding, sort of).

Not that I have an administration diploma, but the diploma route is a necessary part of the post secondary education system and helps employers hire qualified individuals who have the right skills/knowledge/experience for the position they are looking to fill.

I have a friend who received a one year administration certificate from RDC, which helped her land a job with Servus and RBC. The job at RBC was in their investment division (in an administrative position), but she was handling a LOT of the more standardized/every day tasks associated with that field. Why isn't that post secondary education?

As an Engineering Technologist, you may understand why I take offense to your position ;)

I think we really need to get ourselves our of the mindset that everyone needs to go to university imo

SAIT is a great place to get relevant career training... Probabaly till more relevant than my BEng :rolleyes:

[killramos]

Originally posted by Type_S1
engineers making themselves feel so hard done by again and again. Shit, I'd love if scoring a 30% on an exam in some of my classes was a pass! :dunno:

:facepalm:

That does not actually happen. In my experience failing an exam is failing an exam. I have never had a test curved in my life.

You might want to post that in the why UofC isnt a good school thread.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Im with Feruk. I've essentially been on and off both UofA campus and NAIT campus for the past 6 years of my life.

A large portion (I will not say majority) do exactly what Feruk says. The MAJORITY of degrees given nowadays take 5 years instead of 4, and I would say that a large part of it is because they don't do anything but drink their lives away the first year.

It is stupid, irresponsible, and goes to show how easy university education is to obtain in this country. I have a hard time accepting paying for that out of my own pocket, which is why I like the way the current system is. You realize thought that this does actually reinforce my point.. Those people that partied the first year are straight out of high school.. by the time they're done Uni,Tech, hopefully they're a little more disciplined and mature. This wouldn't really change even if Post Secondary was free, because in order to graduate, they still have to pass, right? Now, if it was free and super easy to get a degree.. then I could see your point...

[killramos]

Originally posted by codetrap
You realize thought that this does actually reinforce my point.. Those people that partied the first year are straight out of high school.. by the time they're done Uni,Tech, hopefully they're a little more disciplined and mature.

But not necessarily because they went to school. But more because they are now older.

Reinforces my extended high school concept.

[codetrap]

Ok, so, make it free, and harder to pass. Higher standards. Then you'll just wash more people out in the first year, and eliminate the economic factors that are preventing the poor people from being able to attend.

I'm all for inexpensive post secondary as you can tell, however I DO believe that the students need to be held accountable. It can't just be a free pass to party for 4 years.

Edit: Is it possible now to just party your way through University without acquiring any discipline? I know that it wasn't possible at NAIT.. there was a 50% washout rate the first semester...

[killramos]

Originally posted by codetrap

Edit: Is it possible now to just party your way through University without acquiring any discipline? I know that it wasn't possible at NAIT.. there was a 50% washout rate the first semester...

It absolutely is possible at many institutions in this country. especially if you are of above average intelligence. If you have an IQ of 90? maybe not. It does not help that in some degrees expectations aside from attending lectures drop to almost 0. No exams, 1 or 2 papers, attendance marks. Its pathetic.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
I have a friend who received a one year administration certificate from RDC, which helped her land a job with Servus and RBC. The job at RBC was in their investment division (in an administrative position), but she was handling a LOT of the more standardized/every day tasks associated with that field. Why isn't that post secondary education?
This is exactly what I would argue against. Your friend took a year to learn how to take phone calls and file paperwork! Plus she had to pay for it. Couldn't your friend have learned just about all of that in 3 months of working?? IMO it's outright theft on the part of RDC that is enabled by people with equally useless "education" working in HR at Servus or RBC.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Feruk
This is exactly what I would argue against. Your friend took a year to learn how to take phone calls and file paperwork! Plus she had to pay for it. Couldn't your friend have learned just about all of that in 3 months of working?? IMO it's outright theft on the part of RDC that is enabled by people with equally useless "education" working in HR at Servus or RBC. Wow... I bet you're popular at work.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Feruk

learn how to take phone calls and file paperwork!

Tis a little more complicated than that methinks.

At the same time, I could probably learn that stuff on the job. This comes back to an even bigger issue, and that is in Canada and the USA, companies do not want to internally train employees, hence the "need" for 1 year administrative certificates. :dunno:

So I don't know what the solution is.

[lasimmon]

I don't know when all you guys went to school, but when I did I would say maybe the first 2 weeks of the year people party a lot, and then most buckle down and work hard with the odd party. To say the majority of people party and drink their faces off their whole first year is a ridiculous statement :rolleyes:

Also seems to be a whole lot of 'I'm better than you' in this thread due to various degrees and career paths. Fact is almost all university degrees are pretty easy if you do the requisite work.

I laugh when people are like "Oh you are an engineer, that degree must of been so hard in University". Its not.

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by Feruk

This is exactly what I would argue against. Your friend took a year to learn how to take phone calls and file paperwork! Plus she had to pay for it. Couldn't your friend have learned just about all of that in 3 months of working?? IMO it's outright theft on the part of RDC that is enabled by people with equally useless "education" working in HR at Servus or RBC.

You must be one hack of an "engineer" if you seriously think university degrees are "not worth the paper they're printed on."

[Mista Bob]

Originally posted by FixedGear


You must be one hack of an "engineer" if you seriously think university degrees are "not worth the paper they're printed on."

Hmm... misquoting what someone said to try and prove a point or just not very good at reading comprehension?


Originally posted by Feruk
...most university degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on.

Only one word, but makes a big difference.......... and he's right.

[frizzlefry]

Whether a university education is worth it or not depends on what you are taking. Computer science grads often have to take "devry" courses to get work. And end up making the same as every other devry grad. They do tend to get a bit fast tracked into management but the pay ain't worth it IMO.

My sister has her arts degree from the UofC in the bathroom in a framed picture that says "Break in case of emergency". The degree was useless. She is profitable in the field via reviews, contacts and plain old hard work. No one asked to see her degree or checked. Once.

Engineering is one that does need a degree along with medicine and most sciences. University is a place of learning. It's not designed to land a great job. It's designed to teach. Some fields really require it, some don't.