Tesla D

[supe]

So Elon showed us the D tonight.

D stands for Dual motor.

The P85D can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, pretty impressive. The word is the D also increases the top speed as well as increasing efficiency by increasing distance per charge.

Then there is something else, it can partially drive itself. It can self park both parallel and into your garage. There is also a summon feature where the car will come to you. I'm thinking batmobile at this point. Every car coming off the line going forward will have all the hardware required. Of course it can do all the 'standard' things like auto cruise control, read speed signs, stop signs, traffic lights, auto stop and detect all objects around the car using sonar.

No news on pricing.

[JustinMCS]

It says 120K for the D

I love the D.

Wait what?

[JustinMCS]

http://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-s-p85d-this-is-it-and-i-went-for-a-ride-1644637002/+chris-mills

"The top-spec Model S, the P85D, comes in at $120k (with both the performance and tech packs required). That gets you two motors: the same biggie-sized one out pack in the standard P85, and then a smaller motor fitted up front. That new motor packs an additional 221 hp into the S, with the rear motor dolling out 470 HP, for a combined 691 HP. Plus a quarter mile time of 11.8 seconds (down from 12.6)."

[benyl]

Nice, make a wagon version and I'll trade in the E63.

[supe]

Quite innovative if you ask me.

7quu551ehc0

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Kramerica]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Isn't this the same car as the S, just with more power?


What happened to the every-man Tesla that doens't cost 100000000000000000000000000000000000$ he keeps promising?

Its the old 80s gimmick of having a front and rear motor to get AWD. It just so happens thats the only way you'll get AWD on an electric car.

Every-man Tesla can't be sold for an insane markup. How much does an electric motor cost?

[n1zm0]

Elon gave us S, now he gives us the more powerful D, then next will be the more affordable V?

But really, 0-60 in 3.2 is pretty awesome though. I wonder if that's a consistent 3.2 for the full battery or only at say 60% charge and up or something.

[supe]

Originally posted by Kramerica


Its the old 80s gimmick of having a front and rear motor to get AWD. It just so happens thats the only way you'll get AWD on an electric car.

Every-man Tesla can't be sold for an insane markup. How much does an electric motor cost?

Motors are cheap, its the batteries that are cost prohibitive, which is why we have to wait until they build the worlds biggest battery plant.

Explain why having a second motor is a gimmick?

[rage2]

Originally posted by supe
Quite innovative if you ask me.
benyl's E63S wagon does the same drive itself trick. Matt even talked about being scared by it in his Summer Series article.

http://www.beyond.ca/life-lessons-courtesy-of-mercedes/39305.html

If you were talking about the drivetrain though, the SLS Electric drive has already done electric AWD. Instead of 2 motors, it uses 4 motors to allow full torque vectoring.

Once again, Tesla follows Apple's marketing strategy to blow away fanboys with things that have already been done before.

[supe]

Originally posted by rage2

benyl's E63S wagon does the same drive itself trick.

Does it lane change? Can it read speed signs? Oh... right.

[rage2]

Originally posted by supe
Does it lane change? Can it read speed signs? Oh... right.
The newer versions does even more, with the exact same sensors that are already in the car.

LHqB47F12vI

All this shit is awaiting regulatory approval before it can be released to the public.

Oh... right.

[Xtrema]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/business/tesla-p85d-dual-motor-all-wheel-drive-electric-car-unveiled-1.2794608

7quu551ehc0

[JustinMCS]

^^ Pretty amazing stuff. Wonder how it would do in snow?

[benyl]

Originally posted by Kramerica


Its the old 80s gimmick of having a front and rear motor to get AWD. It just so happens thats the only way you'll get AWD on an electric car.

Every-man Tesla can't be sold for an insane markup. How much does an electric motor cost?

Taking a page out of Apple's book.

I read somewhere that they are calling Musk the next Jobs. Seems to be headed that way.

Tesla is a premium brand for the rich, just like Apple.

[rage2]

Originally posted by benyl
Tesla is a premium brand for the rich, just like Apple.

Originally posted by benyl
Nice, make a wagon version and I'll trade in the E63.
Sounds about right. :rofl:

[supe]

Originally posted by rage2

The newer versions does even more, with the exact same sensors that are already in the car.


All this shit is awaiting regulatory approval before it can be released to the public.

Oh... right.

The point is that no other car on the road today can lane change on its own. The kicker, and I love it, is many cars that are used to compare are in the realms of super cars, SLS and Mclaran.

[benyl]

Originally posted by supe


The point is that no other car on the road today can lane change on its own. The kicker, and I love it, is many cars that are used to compare are in the realms of super cars, SLS and Mclaran.

The D is a direct comparison to the E63S AMG.

Same power, performance, weight and price.

[jacky4566]

Does anyone know how the differentials work in a Tesla? Are the open, locker, LSD?

[kenny]

Originally posted by supe


Does it lane change? Can it read speed signs? Oh... right.

Mercedes-Benz vehicles have been reading speed signs since 2008.

http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/en/speed_limit_assist/detail.html

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-614216-1-1147690-1-0-0-0-0-0-11702-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html


and Nissan autonomous vehicles can change lanes on their own, in a car that costs about 1/4 of a Model S no less.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-nissan-self-driving-parking-cars-20140717-story.html

I know you were excited about Elon Musk showing you the D, but really now... worse than apple fanboys.

[rage2]

Volvo has been reading speed signs since 2013 in the V40, S60 and V60. Unlike the Tesla D, it's actually on the road.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/215912/volvo-v40-offers-licence-saving-road-sign-information-technology/

I don't think supe realizes that this is just an announcement, and not general availability.

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe


Does it lane change? Can it read speed signs? Oh... right.

The M235i can lane change sideways :rofl: . 90% of the sensors used are on the production car

krJmTZ-TcMc

And the car can read any kind of traffic sign.

So bmw has done it, mercedes has done it. How exactly is this Tesla being innovative? :facepalm:

Also can someone explain to me why you can't use an electric motor with conventional differentials? Do they do it just because they can? (Ir not needing the motors in the engine bay)

[benyl]

Originally posted by killramos


So bmw has done it, mercedes has done it. How exactly is this Tesla being innovative? :facepalm:



Hmm, just like Apple.

[rage2]

Yea, there's nothing new with self driving cars. Technology has advanced way ahead of regulations.

http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/the-tech-that-drives-the-new-tesla-model-s-explained-1644801610/+barrett


Musk says that Tesla is still five to six years away from a true, self-driving car. And regulations currently don't permit use of such vehicles on the road, away from development allowances in California and Nevada.

LOL @ Musk copying Apple's "one more thing" for autopilot announcement. 6:12.

FZ6lZJWL_Xk

[supe]

The P85D will be hitting the roads this year. No word if the autopilot will be enabled and ready but the hardware is there. Whether its regulatory approval or further development, its just a flick of the switch away if not already there.

Back to your grudge. This is innovation. It works, and the CEO demonstrated it with him in the driver seat. And since the car is fully digital and data enabled, the car will just get better over time.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/tesla-test-drive-model-p85d-autopilot-zero-to-60-ezUGlnNeQS2JoEwJjX7tGg.html

Keep in mind that this is only partial fully autonomous driving. Every car maker will come out with gimmicks to make driving safer and easier but Google will win the self driving race which is already passing drivers tests.

I think everyone doesn't understand the definition of innovation and getting it confused with invention.

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe

Keep in mind that this is only partial fully autonomous driving.

:rofl:

So in the world of supe: iterate exactly all the things we have said but twist them into justifying his point.

Sounds ironically close to what tesla is doing...

[benyl]

Originally posted by supe

Keep in mind that this is only partial fully autonomous driving.

What is "partial fully autonomous"?

[rage2]

Originally posted by supe
The P85D will be hitting the roads this year. No word if the autopilot will be enabled and ready but the hardware is there. Whether its regulatory approval or further development, its just a flick of the switch away if not already there.

Back to your grudge. This is innovation. It works, and the CEO demonstrated it with him in the driver seat. And since the car is fully digital and data enabled, the car will just get better over time.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/tesla-test-drive-model-p85d-autopilot-zero-to-60-ezUGlnNeQS2JoEwJjX7tGg.html

Keep in mind that this is only partial fully autonomous driving. Every car maker will come out with gimmicks to make driving safer and easier but Google will win the self driving race which is already passing drivers tests.

I think everyone doesn't understand the definition of innovation and getting it confused with invention.
That's quite the innovative post.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc475/rage2amg/innovation_zps8a10393f.jpg

There is nothing new with what Tesla is doing. Everything they have done has been done already.

As for Google, the Europeans have them beat already. Volvo, BMW, VW, Mercedes, every major brand has already demonstrated fully auto driving cars for many years. You just hear more about Google because we're in North America.

[rage2]

“It’s like taking off from a carrier deck,” Musk added, not clarifying whether he’d even done so. “Like having your own personal roller coaster.” The car is so fast, Tesla reps warned occupants of the test vehicles to keep their heads pressed against the whiplash protectors as drivers floored the new model.
So Apple with the messaging. Whiplash protectors! :rofl:

Let's exaggerate that 3.2s just a little more. I'll have to make sure I see a doctor the next time I sit in a GT-R, because that 2.9s is sure to leave permanent physical damage.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[supe]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Tesla is being a bunch of clowns.... they were supposed to release an affordable car that your average Joe could buy and increase their market share and overall feasibility of electric cars by getting more people into them and expanding infrastructure. This is what they promised investors, this is what the outlined as their company objective.

Instead they take the S, which already had decent performance specs as I understand, and made it go 0-60 in 3.2 seconds :banghead:

Who is this even going to appeal to? Nobody is going to track a Tesla, it would be out of juice in a couple of laps. Even if you really wanted the fastest Tesla ever, they are just cutting into the market share of the S.

Well it would be nice to see a Tesla out run a 63 amg.

But thats not the point. This isn't an every man's car, its just showcasing what EV's are capable of and its pretty damn impressive.

So far Tesla is on track. The Model 3 will be out in 2017, my guess more realistically 2018. But they have to build out the gigafactory first because there isn't enough batteries being produced.

[rage2]

Originally posted by supe
But thats not the point. This isn't an every man's car, its just showcasing what EV's are capable of and its pretty damn impressive.
And Tesla isn't even the first to do that either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimac_Concept_One

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe


Well it would be nice to see a Tesla out run a 63 amg.

But thats not the point. This isn't an every man's car, its just showcasing what EV's are capable of and its pretty damn impressive.

So far Tesla is on track. The Model 3 will be out in 2017, my guess more realistically 2018. But they have to build out the gigafactory first because there isn't enough batteries being produced.

3 years is forever in this industry. They lose relevance every day they cater ezclusively to the affluent. Musk must be running out of friends to sell these to lol

[supe]

Originally posted by rage2



There is nothing new with what Tesla is doing. Everything they have done has been done already.



Tesla is new. There is no other company creating a compelling reason to buy EV's. They are breaking records all the time. They now have the quickest sedan ever made, that in itself is innovative.

Now show me another automotive company that offers long distance travel for free. Show me another company that also owns the largest battery factory in the world. Show me a car that is safer than the model S. Show me a company that sells all its cars direct to consumers. Maybe, you find find something that will be an exception to any of these, but put it all together, that is called innovation.

And in case you're looking for a source, #20 on the most innovative companies of 2014:

http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-companies/2014/tesla-motors

[rage2]

Originally posted by supe
They now have the quickest sedan ever made, that in itself is innovative.
That's like saying Apple was first with a gold iPhone. I guess Apple is an innovator too.


Originally posted by supe
And in case you're looking for a source, #20 on the most innovative companies of 2014:

http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-companies/2014/tesla-motors
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/509569/20130927/samsung-google-microsoft-apple-inc-steve-jobs.htm#.VDg0IP50yMM

Apple #1 bitches! In the world!

[supe]

Originally posted by rage2

That's like saying Apple was first with a gold iPhone. I guess Apple is an innovator too.

That is actually what I'm saying. Look, we agree on something :)

[rage2]

Originally posted by supe
That is actually what I'm saying. Look, we agree on something :)
We don't agree. I'm being sarcastic.

[supe]

Originally posted by rage2

We don't agree. I'm being sarcastic.

Ok, but if you want to stick to semantics, then yes I think Jobs, as well as Apple is innovative. So does this source with a poll that agrees with me:

http://www.cnet.com/news/ranking-steve-jobs-among-the-great-innovators/

[Sugarphreak]

...

[killramos]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I think there is a new C63 AMG coming out that will be faster than 3.2 actually.... but as you mentioned, that isn't the point.

As far as "showcasing" EV's, I thought that was the whole point of the roadster. They have been down this road already, the've proven that EV's can be sporty.

Time to stop dicking around and get to work on making EV's mainstream instead of 100K one-off's that nobody can afford.

For 120K, the BMW i8 seems a hell of a lot more appealing than some "D" version of the already outdated "S"

Even the bmw i3 is destroying them to the race of viable electric....

I bet in 3 years when a commercial electric tesla comes out side will still think it's new and innovative.

[supe]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I think there is a new C63 AMG coming out that will be faster than 3.2 actually.... but as you mentioned, that isn't the point.

As far as "showcasing" EV's, I thought that was the whole point of the roadster. They have been down this road already, the've proven that EV's can be sporty.

Time to stop dicking around and get to work on making EV's mainstream instead of 100K one-off's that nobody can afford.

For 120K, the BMW i8 seems a hell of a lot more appealing than some "D" version of the already outdated "S"

To your point I actually agree with you spot on. I think everything they announced is cool but for the consumer all they did was make an expensive car more expensive. Thats why I didn't mention the stock which for now is rightfully down.

I can't afford the S, let alone the D, but I do however think that the D needs to be proven to make the X as good as it can be. Look at what the Cayenne did for Porsche.

As for the Model 3, I can't wait for this car, and the market can't either. I disagree that in 3 years there will be many competitors in the EV space, because automotive companies move painfully slow, but in the bigger picture competition is a good thing for consumers.

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe


I can't afford the S, let alone the D, but I do however think that the D needs to be proven to make the X as good as it can be. Look at what the Cayenne did for Porsche.


You really are bad at identifying innovation.

The Cayenne's success was literally taking a touareg(which its parent company had already designed), shinning it up. And charging 30% more.

Also not innovative.

Actually it sounds similar to what tesla is doing yet again. Release an incremental change and bask in fanboys glory.

Good business decisions =/= innovation

[supe]

Originally posted by killramos


You really are bad at identifying innovation.

The Cayenne's success was literally taking a touareg(which its parent company had already designed), shinning it up. And charging 30% more.

Also not innovative.

Actually it sounds similar to what tesla is doing yet again. Release an incremental change and bask in fanboys glory.

Good business decisions =/= innovation

I didn't equate anything about the X to innovation. However whats your point about the Cayenne? My point is that the X sales will be very high because people love SUV's, SUV's which need a good AWD system.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by supe
the D needs to be proven to make the X as good as it can be. Look at what the Cayenne did for Porsche.
Originally posted by supe
My point is that the X sales will be very high because people love SUV's, SUV's which need a good AWD system. Your point was that they need to prove their AWD system before putting it in an SUV, and you're wrong. SUVs don't need "good" AWD systems to succeed, they just need to have an "AWD" badge on there for some buyers.

The AWD in a CRV vs a Cayenne vs a Grand Cherokee are all completely different - they all serve different purposes - but they all sell because they check that box certain SUV buyers require. If you seriously think that an enthusiast car buyer, let alone the average SUV buyer, can give you details of how the AWD drivetrain in a specific vehicle works then you're out to lunch.

At this point you're just making up reasons for the D to exist because innovation is no longer on the table.

[benyl]

If SUVs need a good AWD system, then why is BMW bringing an X5 with RWD only to the US? Why are 2WD SUVs plentiful in the US?

AWD doesn't sell SUVs. They never leave pavement and the vast majority of the US doesn't get snow.

[supe]

Ok all good points, however I think Tesla's AWD is a bit of a different animal than traditional ICE. Tesla's AWD actually makes the car better in almost every way, better mileage, more power, and of course 4 wheel handling. Keep in mind the D is an option for all models including the X.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe
Ok all good points, however I think Tesla's AWD is a bit of a different animal than traditional ICE. Tesla's AWD actually makes the car better in almost every way, better mileage, more power, and of course 4 wheel handling. Keep in mind the D is an option for all models including the X.

:rofl:

He is serious...

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I think the CRV was offered in a 2WD format in the US and it sells a lot of those. Ditto on the Kia Soul and Nissan Juke. Turns out that all of the Top 6 selling SUVs in North America (YTD in 2014: CRV, Escape, Rav4, Equinox, Explorer and Rogue) come standard with FWD.
Originally posted by supe
Tesla's AWD actually makes the car better in almost every way, better mileage, more power, and of course 4 wheel handling. Keep in mind the D is an option for all models including the X. You're confusing AWD with "The package that includes AWD". AWD cannot create an increase in mileage or power on its own, provided the 2WD system can handle all the power it gets without breaking. In fact, efficiency would be improved by removing that second motor while keeping the rest of the extras from the D package.

As for AWD handling, well whether that's a good thing or not will all depend on how it works.

[mazdavirgin]

The part that always gets me is how people seem to think Elon is some type of tech messiah when he has nothing to do with the innovation or the designs. He is just the poster boy/venture capitalist. Have a look at who is really the brains behind the companies he is involved in. Surprise it's not Elon...

Same thing for Jobs. Neither of those guys could have engineered themselves out of a paper bag.

[supe]

Originally posted by Mibz
The package that includes AWD". AWD cannot create an increase in mileage or power on its own, provided the 2WD system can handle all the power it gets without breaking. In fact, efficiency would be improved by removing that second motor while keeping the rest of the extras from the D package.


I have no idea what you mean, I thought the D package is the extra motor. I thought it was the extra motor that creates the extra power, and is also the reason why mileage is increased.

[kenny]

Originally posted by supe


I have no idea what you mean, I thought the D package is the extra motor. I thought it was the extra motor that creates the extra power, and is also the reason why mileage is increased.

The single motor is replaced by two smaller motors on the D package and the system probably doesn't always run both motors at full power so there are some gains (up to 30 miles on the 85kwh model).

On the P85D, the existing motor isn't changed, but they add in a second smaller motor up front. Again, with a smaller motor up front helping out you get a range boost of 10 miles.

Kind of a moot point because this is probably only under ideal conditions. With moderate acceleration, range probably drops quite a bit on the dual motor setups.

[supe]

Thanks, I didn't realize that. Thats pretty cool, the range difference between the 85D and the P85D is somewhat significant at 20 miles.

So just to be clear, adding the second motor DOES make it more efficient, if only nominally for all models. Tesla says that the regen gains overwhelms the added weight.

[jacky4566]

Yes, Under ideal conditions. I bet the range is much worse at full tilt.
Also keep in mind electric motors are most efficient at 60-80% load.

[Czar]

The technology used for identifying and alerting drivers to hazards on the road is actually the work of a company called Mobileye. All the major car manufactured license their technology. I doubt Tesla would go out on their own to this.

Mobileye also makes their stuff available for consumers as an aftermarket device.


As far as allowing the car to turn itself, all manufacturers can do that. I remember reading an article that said that they decided on feedback to the driver (ie. lights, noise, vibrations, etc) instead of actively turning the car for you.

Personally I would never let the car steer for me in any high-speed situation.



Originally posted by kenny


Mercedes-Benz vehicles have been reading speed signs since 2008.

http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/en/speed_limit_assist/detail.html

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-614216-1-1147690-1-0-0-0-0-0-11702-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html


and Nissan autonomous vehicles can change lanes on their own, in a car that costs about 1/4 of a Model S no less.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-nissan-self-driving-parking-cars-20140717-story.html

I know you were excited about Elon Musk showing you the D, but really now... worse than apple fanboys.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Czar


Personally I would never let the car steer for me in any high-speed situation.




I've driven to drumheller and Banff at the speed limit with the car driving it self most of the way. Steering works fine and I've never had to intervene.

[kevie88]

For those of us who don't care who did it first, Tesla looks like a winner.. I can't think of a single EV I'd rather have right now. Rarely in history has 'the first guy to do it' won out in the end.

I'm sure Tesla's cars will kick start the EV industry among the major industry players.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by kevie88
For those of us who don't care who did it first, Tesla looks like a winner.. I can't think of a single EV I'd rather have right now. Rarely in history has 'the first guy to do it' won out in the end.

I'm sure Tesla's cars will kick start the EV industry among the major industry players.

I agree but...

With D, Elon overhyped and under delivered.
http://www.siliconbeat.com/2014/10/13/model-s-owner-launches-petition-demanding-retrofit-tesla-stock-continues-slide/

I think this is a good mmc before the X is released. But it doesn't warrant this kind of hype.

I would be pissed too if I spent $100k and find out 2 weeks later I got the smaller D. :)

BTW are those superchargers ready between Calgary and Edmonton or Vancouver yet?

Edit: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/ntu-researchers-make/1412342.html

Looks like very promising new tech in the battery front and may reach EVs in probably 5 to 6 years time.

[01RedDX]

.

[supe]

Motor Trend's review of the P85D:


The P85D accelerates like nothing else we’ve tested. With electric-fast reactions, its traction control matches wheel torque to available road grip to produce the launch of the gods.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/#ixzz3I1zZhbri

[B18C]

Originally posted by Mibz
You're confusing AWD with "The package that includes AWD". AWD cannot create an increase in mileage or power on its own, provided the 2WD system can handle all the power it gets without breaking. In fact, efficiency would be improved by removing that second motor while keeping the rest of the extras from the D package.

As for AWD handling, well whether that's a good thing or not will all depend on how it works.

I believe that in the dual motor setup the front motor is geared higher offering greater efficiency at higher speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower speeds the rear motor,which is geared lower, does more of the work. Thus offering better efficiencies than a single motor setup could provide.

Plus I think having a front motor allows for more efficient regen braking which helps with increasing the range but this would probably be true in a simple single fwd setup as well.

I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.

[killramos]

Originally posted by B18C


I believe that in the dual motor setup the front motor is geared higher offering greater efficiency at higher speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower speeds the rear motor,which is geared lower, does more of the work. Thus offering better efficiencies than a single motor setup could provide.

Plus I think having a front motor allows for more efficient regen braking which helps with increasing the range but this would probably be true in a simple single fwd setup as well.

I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.

We class cars based on number of exhaust pipes. This? Not rated so high.

It's also just not innovative at all. Just expensive.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by B18C

I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.

I don't remember any posts that were hating on the Tesla at all - just many pointing out (quite rightly) that many of the touted "innovative" features have already been done by other manufacturers years ago. That's not saying it's a bad car, and most of the more negative posts had more to do with supe masturbating himself raw over the thing than any actual dislike of the automobile.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by B18C
I believe that in the dual motor setup the front motor is geared higher offering greater efficiency at higher speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower speeds the rear motor,which is geared lower, does more of the work. Thus offering better efficiencies than a single motor setup could provide.

Plus I think having a front motor allows for more efficient regen braking which helps with increasing the range but this would probably be true in a simple single fwd setup as well.

I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate. That's good info, thanks.

Nobody here is hating on Elon or the Tesla, there are just a lot of people who can't seem to differentiate between "not riding the Tesla hype train" and "hating Tesla". Being realistic about the car, the company and its owner are not hating, we're simply trying to bring this thread back down to Earth after some overly enthusiastic posters have regurgitated marketing hype instead of thinking for themselves.

[B18C]

Originally posted by Mibz
That's good info, thanks.

Nobody here is hating on Elon or the Tesla, there are just a lot of people who can't seem to differentiate between "not riding the Tesla hype train" and "hating Tesla". Being realistic about the car, the company and its owner are not hating, we're simply trying to bring this thread back down to Earth after some overly enthusiastic posters have regurgitated marketing hype instead of thinking for themselves.

Fair enough. Being a car enthusiast forum, I guess I was just expecting a little more love here for the model S. Innovative or not, it sure is a compelling car.

[DubSport]

Why should I care who innovated what? as a consumer I just want the best all around product on the market, I don't care if the Japanese innovated with sensors for system X, the Germans innovated on traction control, the Swedes innovated on safety systems etc. Its the end result "package" that I'm interested in, and the P85D delivers.

Musk WANTS the industry to catch on and for EV cars to push out ICE. Hence opening up Tesla's patents.
I think he's already done his job in the automotive industry, and Model X will seal the deal. At the moment he is more interested in humanity's future, i.e. colonizing mars, rather than building cars that are better than the top 1% (BMW M, AMG, Audi RS). Oh yeah he does that job pretty well already, too.

The P85D is the best all around car you can buy right now.

:poosie:

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by DubSport
At the moment he is more interested in humanity's future,

:rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by DubSport
The P85D is the best all around car you can buy right now.

:poosie:
Best EV around, for sure. Best all around car? Maybe in California. Here in Calgary, you have AWD for winter, but the battery performance drops significantly unless you're in a heated garage.

Here's consumer reports winter test. By winter, they're testing in mild winter, 7C in the day, -1C at night.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-limit-range-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm

The test showed that there was a loss of 40% range in that environment. In Calgary, where it's currently -15C, it'll be much worse. The battery is only rated to -10C, so it's spending a lot energy keeping the system warm.

Then there's long distance driving. It takes a Tesla 2 days to get to Vancouver.

EV's have a long ways to go before it truly becomes a better all around car than any gasoline powered car.

While I believe EV's are the future and Tesla is leading the way today, it still needs to fix the storage problem, which can only be overcome by breaking past the limits of chemical storage.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by DubSport

Musk WANTS the industry to catch on and for EV cars to push out ICE. Hence opening up Tesla's patents.

More correctly, opening the patents was a move to spur EV development so he'll have more customers for the massive battery factory he's building. Musk is a savvy entrepreneur with a marketing slant, not an altruist.

[01RedDX]

.

[DubSport]

Originally posted by rage2

Best EV around, for sure. Best all around car? Maybe in California. Here in Calgary, you have AWD for winter, but the battery performance drops significantly unless you're in a heated garage.

Here's consumer reports winter test. By winter, they're testing in mild winter, 7C in the day, -1C at night.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-limit-range-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm

The test showed that there was a loss of 40% range in that environment. In Calgary, where it's currently -15C, it'll be much worse. The battery is only rated to -10C, so it's spending a lot energy keeping the system warm.

Then there's long distance driving. It takes a Tesla 2 days to get to Vancouver.

EV's have a long ways to go before it truly becomes a better all around car than any gasoline powered car.

While I believe EV's are the future and Tesla is leading the way today, it still needs to fix the storage problem, which can only be overcome by breaking past the limits of chemical storage.

OK Range is the only real counter-argument that I see here.
Safety, performance, and tech in the P85D is already proven to be fantastic, putting it somewhere near the top of the charts along with the other great cars currently on the market (E63, M5, RS7, Porsches, etc.).

Back to range - in my case, 100% of my driving is within city limits. I do go from heated garage to heated garage. Plus, I'm pretty sure you (or any of us for that matter) wouldn't be able to hit your ICE vehicles touted MPG rating in Calgary either, based on both our driving styles and our less than ideal roads/environment. So it's not shocking news that Tesla doesn't always achieve its touted range either, barring ideal conditions/driving.

There are two supercharger stations planned to be built between Calgary and Vancouver. So when they are done, you could do the trip for free, in the same time as your ICE.

I still stand by my statement, but holding out for Model X. Think SUV with sub 4-second 0-60.

[DubSport]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


More correctly, opening the patents was a move to spur EV development so he'll have more customers for the massive battery factory he's building.
That very well may be part of it, and Musk realizes he will need lots of cash to achieve his lofty space exploration goals.

[rage2]

Originally posted by DubSport
OK Range is the only real counter-argument that I see here.
Safety, performance, and tech in the P85D is already proven to be fantastic, putting it somewhere near the top of the charts along with the other great cars currently on the market (E63, M5, RS7, Porsches, etc.).

Back to range - in my case, 100% of my driving is within city limits. I do go from heated garage to heated garage. Plus, I'm pretty sure you (or any of us for that matter) wouldn't be able to hit your ICE vehicles touted MPG rating in Calgary either, based on both our driving styles and our less than ideal roads/environment. So it's not shocking news that Tesla doesn't always achieve its touted range either, barring ideal conditions/driving.

There are two supercharger stations planned to be built between Calgary and Vancouver. So when they are done, you could do the trip for free, in the same time as your ICE.

I still stand by my statement, but holding out for Model X. Think SUV with sub 4-second 0-60.
Like I said, almost there, great car for some people in the right conditions, but definitely not the best all around car yet. It just doesn't work for many people, but works well for some.

While the Tesla has great performance, it kills range if you actually USE the performance. So sure, even if you have a supercharger station between here and Vancouver, you have to drive conservatively to make the trip work.

ICE cars have the same problem with range, but I can get gas anywhere and it takes me 10 mins. In a Tesla, you'd have to find a supercharger station and wait an hour. No supercharger station? A 240V station can get you going in 10 hours. Only a wall plug in hick town BC? Prepare to sit tight for 50+ hours.

I've said it many times before, EV's need to be able to recharge as fast as filling up a tank of gas before it's a serious competitor to gas powered cars. Otherwise, owners will have to drive with some compromises.

Tesla has the best EV's out there, but it sure doesn't have the best all around car.

[supe]

Any car is the right car in the right conditions.

What if your requirements are only that you want the safest car on the road, check.

What if your requirements are you want the quickest 5 or 7 seater on the road, check.

What if you just never want to visit a gas station ever again, especially on cold winter days. Despite the loss in range you will easily get a days worth of driving.

The word best is subjective, the model s is best in many ways that conventional ICE cars are not capable of. Keep in mind this car got the BEST rating of any vehicle on the road from consumer reports.

Yes there are shortfalls which to me are long distance driving and the fact that you need a garage. The first issue is somewhat countered by the fact that the supercharger network is free.

I agree that the technology that powers the model S can get better and it will. Tesla has admitted that it is expecting and ready for battery breakthroughs. But that is the best part about it, is that you're improving upon a platform that is already very good in lots ways, VS ICE cars that only get marginally incrementally better every year.

And in case anyone is still confused by the meaning of innovation:

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516961/how-tesla-is-driving-electric-car-innovation/
http://www.businessinsider.com/fabulous-life-of-elon-musk-2013-12?op=1

[Xtrema]

I believe Tesla is doing good things.

End of the day, if car can't be fully charged in 5-10mins, it's a compromise that many won't deal with and prevent it from going mainstream.

If all the battery tech in the labs can be out in public in a decade's time, Tesla will be in the best position to capitalize that.

Until then, they will continue to be a niche player and will continue to discover why it's tough to be a new entrant as a car maker.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/08/consumer-reports-tesla-model-s-has-more-than-its-share-of-problems/index.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/08/tesla-extends-warranty-to-cover-model-s-problems-with-infiniti-warranty/index.htm

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/22/7038407/michigan-tesla-ban-signed-into-law

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/01/20/norwegian-winter-parks-popular-tesla-electric-cars/



And if I live in San Diego or LA, I would so rock a Tesla S.

[B18C]

The Model S is not for everyone but I think the range problem is a bit overblown. This is where I see the brilliance of Tesla. While something like the Leaf is trying to bring EV's to the masses. Tesla knows we aren't there yet. They go after the luxury market with a $100k+ car. Then they go and make a great car that people actually want to buy. This way they can build the infrastructure needed to make EV's a reality for the masses while the world improves on EV and battery technology to make it make it more affordable.

I really feel that range is a non-factor for the Model S. If you can afford a $100k+ car (the P85D will cost you $140k+ when reasonably optioned), it is highly unlikely that it is your only car. If you really want to drive to Vancouver, take your ICE - at least for now, until the Supercharger network builds out enough.

For everyday use, get a dryer plug in your garage and plug it in every night and you will wake up to the equivalent to a full take of gas every day. There is something to be said to never have to go get gas in the middle of winter.

Now I've never liked the argument of gas savings. I've done the calculation for myself and comparing the P85D to an E63, it would take me about 14 years of driving to make up the gas savings. Plus when you are paying that much for a car, arguing the bit of money you save on gas seems silly.

A sedan that goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and can seat 7 plus hold a load of groceries? That is something worth talking about!

[sneek]

Originally posted by B18C
The Model S is not for everyone but I think the range problem is a bit overblown. This is where I see the brilliance of Tesla. While something like the Leaf is trying to bring EV's to the masses. Tesla knows we aren't there yet. They go after the luxury market with a $100k+ car. Then they go and make a great car that people actually want to buy. This way they can build the infrastructure needed to make EV's a reality for the masses while the world improves on EV and battery technology to make it make it more affordable.

I really feel that range is a non-factor for the Model S. If you can afford a $100k+ car (the P85D will cost you $140k+ when reasonably optioned), it is highly unlikely that it is your only car. If you really want to drive to Vancouver, take your ICE - at least for now, until the Supercharger network builds out enough.

For everyday use, get a dryer plug in your garage and plug it in every night and you will wake up to the equivalent to a full take of gas every day. There is something to be said to never have to go get gas in the middle of winter.

Now I've never liked the argument of gas savings. I've done the calculation for myself and comparing the P85D to an E63, it would take me about 14 years of driving to make up the gas savings. Plus when you are paying that much for a car, arguing the bit of money you save on gas seems silly.

A sedan that goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and can seat 7 plus hold a load of groceries? That is something worth talking about!

I recently had a chance to drive the new P85 and ride along in the P85D. Both cars are insanely fun to drive. The handling is numb even in sport mode and with the air suspension dialed in, but the power is so intoxicating. Usually you have to wait for power or downshift in anticipation. In the Teslas you just floor it and you get forced back into your seat. It is only one gear so it doesn't need to downshift. I am a total believer in the car when it is working. It is the coolest vehicle I have ever driven, but as I was leaving I saw 2 Model S' come in for service on a flat bed...It is probably the coolest car you can buy for $150K, but I don't know that the technology is ready just yet. Also the rear sears are really cheap. The aren't uncomfortable but they are worse than even what you would get in a Honda Accord.

For those interested in the Model X I believe they don't have a delivery date on them anymore. I was hearing late Q1 or Q2 2016.

[killramos]

Originally posted by rage2

Only a wall plug in hick town BC? Prepare to sit tight for 50+ hours.

I've said it many times before, EV's need to be able to recharge as fast as filling up a tank of gas before it's a serious competitor to gas powered cars. Otherwise, owners will have to drive with some compromises.



One of the biggest problem that I see is this continuing concept of "i can plug it in anywhere"

Who is going to pay for you to plug your electric car in outside their business/house?

Places are going to start ripping block heater plug ins out to combat this.

The battery packs are 85 kWHr on the top line which at 7.79 c/kwr is just under 7 dollars of electricity assuming that charger works at 100% efficiency. People and businesses are not in the habit of giving things away for free and no one is set up to bill you based on usage aside from the power company. Basically unless you live in san Francisco you aren't charging your Tesla ANYWHERE but home or supercharger stations.

And these packs are going to keep getting bigger and electricity is certainly not getting cheaper anywhere on the horizon.

Even the top range Tesla has 427 max theoretical range. I bet you couldn't even make it to banff and back in the winter especially if you want to use your 400 bhp equivalent car to go more than 110 km/hr.

:dunno:

[benyl]

We went to Lake Louise for the weekend in February and stayed at the hotel. Another guest brought a black Tesla and left it with the valet. I doubt the Valet plugged it in.

I assume he was from Calgary.

This is what my car looked like in the morning, so it was winter and cold.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd364/bwinkelm/126A45A5-B9F0-410C-9640-1EABE6E656A0_zpsulfq2cay.jpg (http://s1216.photobucket.com/user/bwinkelm/media/126A45A5-B9F0-410C-9640-1EABE6E656A0_zpsulfq2cay.jpg.html)

I don't trust Valets, so I always self park.

[killramos]

Originally posted by benyl
We went to Lake Louise for the weekend in February and stayed at the hotel. Another guest brought a black Tesla and left it with the valet. I doubt the Valet plugged it in.

I assume he was from Calgary.

This is what my car looked like in the morning, so it was winter and cold.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd364/bwinkelm/126A45A5-B9F0-410C-9640-1EABE6E656A0_zpsulfq2cay.jpg (http://s1216.photobucket.com/user/bwinkelm/media/126A45A5-B9F0-410C-9640-1EABE6E656A0_zpsulfq2cay.jpg.html)

I don't trust Valets, so I always self park.

Well based on what Rage was saying even at 40% decreased ( in much warmer weather) that's just over 250 km total range. With Louise 182 km each way... Maybe he came from Canmore :rofl: or was extremely lucky, to be fair you never did see if he made it home :D

As for Valets who does trust them. I only ever do it if they will leave the car at the door.

[supe]

Originally posted by killramos


Who is going to pay for you to plug your electric car in outside their business/house?


This is where it gets interesting. Lets say you have a business, would you want people that can afford Tesla's in your business or honda civics?

http://insideevs.com/tesla-to-install-superchargers-at-cbl-malls-and-we-know-where-theyll-be/

At least one mall chain in america is installing superchargers (free) which entices high value customers into their business.

Look up sun country highway in canada. I believe most of their chargers are free, because businesses see value in the offering charging for free while gaining business from EV drivers. Then there is the added benefit of having the image of being green.

And I can't find the video but yes there is a community of residential owners that are offering electricity for free. Most have solar panels installed so its literally free.

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe


This is where it gets interesting. Lets say you have a business, would you want people that can afford Tesla's in your business or honda civics?

http://insideevs.com/tesla-to-install-superchargers-at-cbl-malls-and-we-know-where-theyll-be/

At least one mall chain in america is installing superchargers (free) which entices high value customers into their business.

Look up sun country highway in canada. I believe most of their chargers are free, because businesses see value in the offering charging for free while gaining business from EV drivers. Then there is the added benefit of having the image of being green.

And I can't find the video but yes there is a community of residential owners that are offering electricity for free. Most have solar panels installed so its literally free.

You mean people are doing all of this to attract < 50,000 potential customers worldwide?

Because that's all of the cars they have managed to sell in 6 years.

Sound like a solid business model :nut:

Pay money to give stuff away for free to attract customers that don't exist.

Businesses are more likely to be successful doing this:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/rainin.gif

[supe]

Originally posted by killramos


One of the biggest problem that I see is this continuing concept of "i can plug it in anywhere"

Who is going to pay for you to plug your electric car in outside their business/house?



Originally posted by killramos


You mean people are doing all of this to attract &lt; 50,000 potential customers worldwide?

Because that's all of the cars they have managed to sell in 6 years.

Sound like a solid business model :nut:

Pay money to give stuff away for free to attract customers that don't exist.


Its a chicken and egg problem and you just complained about both.

So far the answer is YES people are buying Tesla's and YES there is a growing infrastructure to charge them.

[B18C]

I LOVE the Model S but it does have some drawbacks for sure. If you are an avid skier/snowboarder and head out to the mountains every weekend in the winter it probably isn't for you, at least not this season. They are building a Supercharger at Canmore's Rocky Mountain Inn. Construction is already started so I assume it will be ready for sure by the spring if not earlier.

The infrastructure is building and the Model S is what is getting us closer to the point where EV's are viable for everyone.

For daily driving you don't need to plug it in anywhere but home, even in the winter. On a simple 24amp dryer plug you get 200+kms of charge in 8 hours so unless you drive for a living that should be more than enough.

Are there times you are going to modify how you do things if you drive a Tesla? Sure. It will take more planning and there are some compromises/inconveniences when you step outside of most peoples regular driving habits but I think these are acceptable compromises. No different than not trusting valet people to park your nice car, going out of your way to by expensive motor oil for your high performance ICE or parking in the far reaches of a parking lot so no one dings your car.

[rage2]

Let's hope this is for real.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/technology/sns-rt-us-tech-israel-batteries-20141124-story.html

I've been following them since they raised $42m Series B funding. If they can realistically get the size and weight down, then yes, we can seriously start looking at EV's going critical mass.

Surprised Tesla doesn't just buy them out and dump money at them if their claims are valid.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by rage2
Let's hope this is for real.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/technology/sns-rt-us-tech-israel-batteries-20141124-story.html

I've been following them since they raised $42m Series B funding. If they can realistically get the size and weight down, then yes, we can seriously start looking at EV's going critical mass.

Surprised Tesla doesn't just buy them out and dump money at them if their claims are valid.

That just sounds like they've fitted a phone with a super capacitor...? No real info but thats all it sounds like.

[supe]

This is pretty cool, a Model S will drive through all 50 states, including alaska and hawaii:

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/50-states-model-s

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe
This is pretty cool, a Model S will drive through all 50 states, including alaska and hawaii:

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/50-states-model-s

Please enlighten me as to how you can drive a tesla model S through CANADA to alaska without taking a week? Cause there is no supercharger line.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Hilariously North Korea has a great percentage of its landmass covered in superchargers than Canada

[benyl]

If you read the blog post, the car was shipped from Seattle to Alaska. It will then be shipped to Hawaii.

North Korea has no Superchargers. I don't know what you are talking about.

[killramos]

Originally posted by benyl
If you read the blog post, the car was shipped from Seattle to Alaska. It will then be shipped to Hawaii.

North Korea has no Superchargers. I don't know what you are talking about.

The north is within range of a Chinese one. Thus with supercharger range a greater percentage of North Korea is accessible than Canada. And they are adding more chinese ones that will increase that :rofl:

Also shipping a car through canada and over seas to Hawaii, that sounds green... :rolleyes:

[E36M3]

Shit, I must have hallucinated this one:

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger/squamish

Look here and slide it to "Coming Soon". Criticizing Tesla for going after their home market first and getting a massive part of the United States covered is crazy.. I can't believe how much progress they have already made:

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger


Originally posted by killramos


The north is within range of a Chinese one. Thus with supercharger range a greater percentage of North Korea is accessible than Canada. And they are adding more chinese ones that will increase that :rofl:

Also shipping a car through canada and over seas to Hawaii, that sounds green... :rolleyes:

[benyl]

Originally posted by killramos


The north is within range of a Chinese one. Thus with supercharger range a greater percentage of North Korea is accessible than Canada. And they are adding more chinese ones that will increase that :rofl:

Also shipping a car through canada and over seas to Hawaii, that sounds green... :rolleyes:

Can't tell if you are serious or stupid.

[killramos]

Originally posted by benyl


Can't tell if you are serious or stupid.

Nope I'm just not blindly following the fallacy that these impractical cars are a big deal.

[supe]

Originally posted by killramos


Nope I'm just not blindly following the fallacy that these impractical cars are a big deal.

The writing is on the wall, ICE vehicles will go away, enjoy it while it lasts. IMO Electric Vehicles are poised to take the market and if so Tesla is in a good position. They might not be a big deal to you, but our generation will get to see a shift in old technology transition to a new one. So you can stay in your typewriter days and knock the new technology coming in but it will happen whether you support it or not.

[01RedDX]

.

[Tik-Tok]

Who's rallying against it? Stating the facts of it's current state is far from decrying it.

[01RedDX]

.

[killramos]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Are you kidding? There are people railing against the tech in every single Tesla thread. Even after they are shown the facts of its current state.

No you just don't like to hear the current facts and like to list pseudo facts that are highly reliant on perfect conditions while continuing to state that "its the future", which is not a fact.

Point A -> Point B

That's how a discussion works. You just want everyone to agree with you. Which isn't going to happen just because you think Tesla (a huge multinational corporation who is interested in profits like everyone else) is going to save all the bunny rabbits.

Would you prefer everyone just stay quiet about detractions so you can live in bliss about the cars? #censorthenonbelievers Grow up.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Are you kidding? There are people railing against the tech in every single Tesla thread. Even after they are shown the facts of its current state.

I just went through this entire thread, and there wasn't a single post rallying against the tech, only how it currently stands. :dunno:

The whole thread is about
- Tesla taking Apple's advertising style (Telling everyone they're innovative, when they aren't)
- EV cars are still too expensive for us commoners
- Elon Musk isn't the super altruistic person he makes himself out as (he is a business man, working in a for profit company)
- Electric cars have limited range and get much worse in cold weather
- There's more EV charging stations available in Asia than North America

Not a single post about how much better ICE's are, except from a monetary cost perspective.

[supe]

Keep in mind the model S has won a shit ton of accolades, the same car you seem to think is sub par. Awards that also include being green and saving bunny rabbits. So excuse me for being a believer.