Gurus: Let's talk AWD

[zieg]

Looking for another car, which will be driven year-round and wanted to get some opinions on the AWD systems available today. I'm looking for a fun commuter that's a bit less 'race car' than my current dd but still makes the drive fun and can handle the twisties. I want AWD not only for getting out of a ditch, but also the control in aforementioned twisties. And costs <$50K

So here's a list of cars I have been considering and a basic rundown of what I know about the mechanical components of their AWD systems. My questions about the capabilities and advantages of these systems are below.

-A3/S3: open front and rear diffs, Torsen center diff, 40:60 nominal split, optional rear vlsd

-STi: Helical front, Torsen rear, planetary center with around 30:70 nominal split and an electronic clutch pack able to achieve full lock

-Infiniti Q50: Not a lot of info online but open front and rear diffs by the looks of it, no center diff, just a coupling that gives 0:100 when unlocked and apparently able to achieve full lock

-Mercedes CLA250: This one I've only just started looking into but it seems to be a front-dominant system with a coupling that engages the rear axle, essentially the reverse of the Infiniti?

-BMW 328i xDrive: Sounds like the Infiniti again but might not fully unlock like the Infiniti claims to?

Now where I start to get lost is when we get into torque vectoring this, and e-diff that.. While I'm fine with torque vectoring I'm not so sure about the e-diff, if it's so great why is an LSD still offered like on the STi, Evo, S3 and M3? Is it good on a race track? In a snow bank?

My fear about the Infiniti is that when I hit a patch of black ice going around a clover leaf and the rear end lets go, am I going to be bouncing off the curb by the time anything reacts and moves power around? Similarly, I'm not sure if the Audi would be in the same boat just because the torsen diff needs to sense slip before locking up (right?), so how noticeable would any delay be? Not sure if Quattro can brake a whole axle to help assist in power transfer.

For what it's worth I'm driving an 07 STi right now with the same diff configuration as listed above for the 2015, the difference being that I have no traction control or VDC or anything like that. Aside from the electronic locking center diff, the system is completely mechanical and that has been my only experience with an AWD sports car so far (and I like it)

Any thoughts would be appreciated, and if anyone can think of another car I should look at, let me know. I'd mostly prefer a hatchback/wagon for the cargo space, but I also sort of want a DCT so my wife can drive it but I don't feel like I've sold my soul for buying a slushbox.

Also, if anyone has any good links to some highly detailed explanations, that would be appreciated. I'm making my rounds to the dealers now but generally all I get is "oh well our system is the best but I cant tell you why or explain how any of it works".

Thanks in advance!

[A790]

IS350 AWD would fit right in with that lineup.

[zieg]

Ah crap, I forgot about that one. Thanks. Same issue as the BMW regarding the slushbox, but I guess I should give them the benefit of the doubt and drive it anyway..

[xnvy]

Jalopnik had a huge article on AWD/4WD recently. Link. (http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/a-4-wd-what-is-awd-4wd-and-how-does-it-work-1650386909/1650531656/+andrewpcollins)

[rage2]

Go used and buy a 996 Turbo. Primarily RWD, up to 10% power up front. With so much weight out back, it will out accelerate every AWD system out there. The entire system is mechanical (you can hear the power transfer when the rears slip) so it's very predictable. By far the most fun and best driving feel/control system I've driven in snow and ice.

If new is your only choice in this price range, the Subaru wins hands down. I will state that I haven't driven the A3 or CLA250, and I'm basing it on A4s and my CLS.

[zieg]

Well, I didn't get into it given the context of the thread but I'm also planning on kids within a couple years and need something with 4 doors and a bit of hauling capacity. I really wish Subaru hadn't dropped the hatch for 2015.. Also, they need to get with the times and offer a DCT and maybe stop using the same engine they've had since 2004.

FWIW I drove the CLA250 yesterday and while it drove pretty nicely I felt a bit disconnected in the corners. It cornered well but I had to look at the speedo to know how fast I was going and wasn't exactly sure how close to the edge of traction I was getting. And I'd need the backup camera because rear visibility was shite.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[lilmira]

wait for the Golf R?

[94boosted]

OP what about something like the ATS, Chrysler 200 or Ford Fusion Titanium? Ford and Chrysler are FWD based but the Caddy I believe is RWD based.

[Mibz]

There are so many other differences between those cars, you really should drive them all and pick the one you like instead of basing a $50,000 decision off a single criteria.

[jacky4566]

Going to vote for the Subaru as well. I too also wish it came in a hatchback. Why not get the WRX (With new engine) and a Thule box for the skis.

[rage2]

The GLA45 AMG comes in right at $50k too. Although it's classed as a SUV, it's really a large hatchback. I have no idea how the AMG 45's handle in the snow just yet, really need to get behind the wheel of one this winter.

But ya, what Mibz said. Don't choose based on specs and AWD system tech, choose based on how it is to drive.

[benyl]

The GLA45 might classed as an SUV by Mercedes, but it isn't a "truck" like other SUVs due to ride height. It really is a hatchback.

You cannot get the rear windows tinted from the factory because it is a car and not a truck / Van / MPV.


The federal government sets the minimum performance requirements for window shading on new vehicles, under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act. Because they’re not required to be equipped with a passenger-side mirror, all windows on passenger cars are considered necessary for the driver’s visibility and must allow at least 70 per cent light transmittance. Most SUVs and minivans, however, fall under the class of Multi-purpose Passenger Vehicles (MPVs). Because MPVs and trucks require a mirror on both sides and don’t require a window behind the driver’s seat, extra tinting on rear windows is permitted for these vehicles.

It's the reason my wagon comes as a fish bowl from the factory.

That being said, if the OP feels disconnected in CLA250, I would be looking back at Subaru. Many, if not all the cars you listed are luxury cars and will feel and sound nothing like a 2007 STI.

[zieg]

Yeah I know, It might just be a case of needing to get used to it. Basically I just want to move the slider one or two ticks away from 'race car' and towards 'luxury car'.

And don't get me wrong, the AWD functionality is only part of the decision, but it's also a part that's less talked about. That's why I wanted to open the discussion here since we're not brand-specific, and we could talk objectively about the pros and cons of each type of AWD system.

Regarding mini-suvs, I suppose that's worth looking at too. I was also considering the BMW X1, which I do believe uses the exact same xDrive system as the 3 series.

[benyl]

Really? At the end of the day, all I would care about is having an AWD that actually transfers power. In the winter, you only need AWD at a stop light. There is some Honda video making the rounds showing the CRV doesn't transfer power.

If I was in your shoes, I would be looking at the Forester XT or the like.

[ercchry]

stability is so good now that even with a pure RWD car i would doubt you'd get the ass to come out in the snow with all the nannies turned on and proper tires. as mentioned AWD is to get moving

[zieg]

Heh, I dunno, I think I could make a case for awd at almost any speed, if my experience on ghost lake was any indication.


I have glanced at the FXT, CVT with multi plate center coupling, open front and rear diffs. Seems like a decent system. My buddy has a '13 foz and also took it to ghost lake, and damn that thing was nimble on the ice. My horsepower advantage meant nothing and his maniacal driving (and possibly better tires) netted him a lap time less than ten seconds off my own pace. :bigpimp:

[rage2]

Originally posted by ZiG-87
I was also considering the BMW X1, which I do believe uses the exact same xDrive system as the 3 series.
While the system is the same, the driving dynamics is quite different. The 3 series xDrives are terrible, really boring to drive. The X1 is much better. I'm not sure if there's programming that accounts for the differences, or if it's from a completely different COG and weight distribution, but the X1 doesn't understeer like a pig compared to the 3's.

I was blown away at how different it was in the X1, so much so that my bro ended up buying one after I passed on the feedback. It looks pretty good slammed down, damn thing is lower than my BS now haha.

This is why you really need to drive the cars to make a good decision.

[R-Audi]

If you are planning on having kids in the near future, the WRX's backseat can be tight with certain carseats. Im not a tall person by any means (5'10) and it was a little uncomfortable with a rear facing Peg Perego behind me (Driver and passenger) in a 2010.

[RX_EVOLV]

I don't have much knownledge/experience with AWD systems but my Q50S-AWD handled last winter beautifully with no issues, especially in Snow mode. Better than the RX-330 I had before if that's even a fair comparison.

[dubhead]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Should be able to get an A4 out of the showroom for under 50K well equipped, it will be a bit bigger than the S3/A3 for later too

Focus RS AWD should be out soon enough if you can wait... that is going to be amazing

This, or you can get into to a lightly used S4 for under <50k. Either way I can pack a ton of shit in my S4 managed to get three people and camping gear in her for a trip this summer.

Can't chime in on the AWD though eagerly waiting for it to start snowing so I can find that out myself :devil:

[GTS Jeff]

A3 and S3 are FWD biased Haldex systems, not torsen. The rest of Audi's lineup is Torsen Quattro, which with the sports diff is pretty fun.

My experience of owning Haldex Quattro, Torsen Quattro with sports diff, 2 different BMW X-drives, countless different versions of Subaru symmetrical AWD, and a G37XS, tells me that I prefer this for driving fun:

1. G37XS - behaves totally like a RWD car, but kinda shitty for grip and stability. Plus terrible interior.
2. S4 w sport diff - behaves like RWD, but almost too grippy. Even with the supercharged 3.0, it is hard to outpower the tires on snow covered roads. Very high limits.
3. 335 X drive - like the S4, but slightly less so. I would say it has more engaging and responsive controls, especially the summer. Fantastic overall car. There's a reason the 3 series is the benchmark by which all other sports sedans are judged.
4. Subaru - they all suck man. Legacy, WRX, STI, open diff, torsen, rear LSD, Spec B..they all suck.

My top overall choice would be the BMW.

[rage2]

I still think you have no idea how to drive if you think the BMW 3 X-Drive is better than the S4 with a sport diff in the summer.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by rage2
I still think you have no idea how to drive if you think the BMW 3 X-Drive is better than the S4 with a sport diff in the summer. What does driving skill have to do with forming an opinion about which car I like driving more?

It's like you don't understand the distinction between "I prefer this for driving fun" vs. "this car performs better." One is an abstract opinion of relativity, the other is a quantifiable statement with less personal bias. See the difference?

[rage2]

My bad. I guess you just prefer boring and safe over lively handling.

[flipstah]

We should have an AWD comparison for winter.

I volunteer my 50/50 Haldex.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

I volunteer my 50/50 welded rear diff LSD front diff Subaru with studded 185s...

It's a fair comparison right :rofl:

[flipstah]

I'd say test drive each one after a heavy snowfall and find an empty parking lot. :burnout:

[Redlyne_mr2]

BMW x drive is still the best AWD system I've driven. If my life involved ice racing then I'd look at the Subie.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2
My bad. I guess you just prefer boring and safe over lively handling.

Isn't that the basis of going AWD in the first place? Safe and boring?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by heavyD


Isn't that the basis of going AWD in the first place? Safe and boring?

To save your ass when you exceed your personal driving limits :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
To save your ass when you exceed your personal driving limits :rofl:
For some, the BMW system can't even save you from that.


Originally posted by heavyD
Isn't that the basis of going AWD in the first place? Safe and boring?
For some people, ya. There are better "fun" AWD options out there, and that's what the OP is specifically looking for.

[zieg]

Yeah, exactly. I like the versatility and features on the volvo v60 but it's a front dominant haldex system so I'm a little dubious about its performance handling. Test drive booked later this week. Going to look at an is350 tonight, and then if I'm still not seeing anything jump out at me, I'll take a look at x1, q3, gla etc. The gla45amg looks pretty sexual actually. Thanks for pointing it out.

[faiz999]

im not sure its the best DD but the evo's awd system is quite enjoyable when pushed.

however, coming from a subaru, it seems too similar and lacks some of the creature comforts you can get with the bmw/audi.

[bspot]

Gen IV Haldex is supposed to transfer before slip. I haven't driven a car with it, but otherwise I'd count out any Haldex car as they are good for getting around in the snow, but about the opposite of fun.

I'd also so no to anything with a viscous coupling.

A rear biased torsen centre diff is a fantastic all around system. As long as you have enough power, they are a blast in the snow.

[Darkane]

Didn't see it here, maybe the OP doesn't like em but:

TL SH-AWD

You probably won't find a new one, but a used one a year old would be sweet.

I'm biased with my '10, but man it's a blast with 6sp manual.

3.7L, it's a honda big block lol.

EDIT: If you want BRAND new check out the TLX Sh-AWD. No manual option though.

[soloracer]

This looks like fun, for the responsible people that is:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/renntech-e60-4matic-road-test-review

[HiSpec]

Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
I volunteer my 50/50 welded rear diff LSD front diff Subaru with studded 185s...

It's a fair comparison right :rofl:

With the welded rear diff I am assuming it will be fairly tail happy? lol

[zipdoa]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Alfa164_Q4.jpg

I always wanted a Alfa 164 Q4 - can split 100% torque to either axle.


In 1993, Alfa introduced a four-wheel-drive variant called the Q4 (short for Quadrifoglio 4), which was equipped with an even more powerful version of the 3.0L V6 engine. The Q4 four-wheel-drive system (Viscomatic) was co-developed with the Austrian company Steyr-Puch.[8] The system was very advanced when compared to other 4WD systems at that time. The system consisted of a viscous coupling unit, central epicyclic differential and Torsen differential in the rear. The whole system is connected to ABS and Motronic units. The power driven to the rear axle is continuously variable from 0 to 100%, so the car can be fully front- or rear-wheel-drive as conditions require. Torque is distributed between axles depending on the speed, turning radius, engine rpms, throttle position and ABS parametrics. This model was equipped with a Getrag 6-speed manual gearbox.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Originally posted by HiSpec


With the welded rear diff I am assuming it will be fairly tail happy? lol

Depends on the surface. On pavement unless you are flat out or trying to slide the car it actually creates understeer.

[relyt92]

How does the Lexus awd system stack up in the last gen GS series?

[beyond_ban]

Not trying to hijack, but i have a quick question for those that have driven B6 and B7 S4's. How fun are they? I'm looking into getting a good daily for year round use rather then having a summer car and winter beater at the same time and they seem like a good car for the bang for the buck.

Anywhere near as fun as the B8 with sport diff?

[tehwegz]

STi/Evo pls

I've heard nothing but good from Acura's SH-AWD. It just lacks the marketing that Subaru's Symmetrical, or Audi's Quattro has.

Heard Infiniti's with AWD don't drive nearly as nice as the RWD. Same with BMW i VS Xi.

[zieg]

Yeah the Q50 was a bit underwhelming in general, but I drove an IS350 and liked the feel, unfortunately I have some other reservations about the rest of the car. It seems the AWD system is 30:70 by default and can lock the center diff for 50:50 but I don't know any more than that. I almost want to start phoning these manufacturers and asking to speak to their engineering department. :rofl:

[bjstare]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
Not trying to hijack, but i have a quick question for those that have driven B6 and B7 S4's. How fun are they? I'm looking into getting a good daily for year round use rather then having a summer car and winter beater at the same time and they seem like a good car for the bang for the buck.

Anywhere near as fun as the B8 with sport diff?

Not trying to enable the hijack, but..

I was set on getting one of these cars until I found out about the $6k-$10k timing chain/tensioner maintenance. That's why they can be had for so cheap. :(

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
Not trying to hijack, but i have a quick question for those that have driven B6 and B7 S4's. How fun are they? I'm looking into getting a good daily for year round use rather then having a summer car and winter beater at the same time and they seem like a good car for the bang for the buck.

Anywhere near as fun as the B8 with sport diff? No. They understeer like a Subaru. Even the B8 without the sport diff does too.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
Not trying to hijack, but i have a quick question for those that have driven B6 and B7 S4's. How fun are they? I'm looking into getting a good daily for year round use rather then having a summer car and winter beater at the same time and they seem like a good car for the bang for the buck.

Anywhere near as fun as the B8 with sport diff?

Also be aware of a 6-8k service at 160-175km...

[bspot]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
Not trying to hijack, but i have a quick question for those that have driven B6 and B7 S4's. How fun are they? I'm looking into getting a good daily for year round use rather then having a summer car and winter beater at the same time and they seem like a good car for the bang for the buck.

Anywhere near as fun as the B8 with sport diff?

I had one and put it on some KW V3s and put a stiffer rear sway in. It brought the car to life.

Buy one that has had the timing done.

It might not give the biggest thrills on dry because you have SO much traction, but it was a blast in the snow, and with the suspension upgrades it handled great, just felt a bit like a front weighted heavy pig, which it was. It won't feel as balanced as a BMW.

[beyond_ban]

Ya maintenance issues are quite daunting, especially for a daily. With the correct mods, a B7 A4 with the 2.0T may be the best bet.

Anyways, carry on as you were haha

[bspot]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
Ya maintenance issues are quite daunting, especially for a daily. With the correct mods, a B7 A4 with the 2.0T may be the best bet.

Anyways, carry on as you were haha

I disagree. Besides the major issue that is the timing system, it's a pretty damn solid platform that holds up quite well. There are a couple common things (Aux radiator leaks, starters) but really not too much that is a common problem...... besides an $8K timing job :bigpimp:

[dubhead]

Originally posted by ZiG-87
Yeah the Q50 was a bit underwhelming in general

I would agree even in sport mode the slush box found where it should be about as well as my mini van, I tested it pretty much back to back against the V60 R-Design and the Volvo was by far the livelier car and shifted really tight.

[zieg]

Originally posted by dubhead


I would agree even in sport mode the slush box found where it should be about as well as my mini van, I tested it pretty much back to back against the V60 R-Design and the Volvo was by far the livelier car and shifted really tight.


Cool, I'll be driving one of those later this week! Sat in one in the showroom and was very happy with the seats and the cargo space. I've even heard that, while Haldex/FWD based, the AWD system is pretty good and gives reasonably neutral steering for a stock car.

The lack of a spare tire (and no runflats) is a bit scary, and I'm terrified that they were under the Ford umbrella for a while. Need to find out if they stuck their tentacles into Volvo's design department or if it was more of an ownership-only type of thing, buy the brand, take all their intellectual property/patents then dump it and move on..

[dubhead]

Originally posted by ZiG-87



Cool, I'll be driving one of those later this week! Sat in one in the showroom and was very happy with the seats and the cargo space. I've even heard that, while Haldex/FWD based, the AWD system is pretty good and gives reasonably neutral steering for a stock car.

The lack of a spare tire (and no runflats) is a bit scary, and I'm terrified that they were under the Ford umbrella for a while. Need to find out if they stuck their tentacles into Volvo's design department or if it was more of an ownership-only type of thing, buy the brand, take all their intellectual property/patents then dump it and move on..

Yeah I don't recall it particularly leaning towards understear but with the transverse mounted Engine there is some torque steer for sure, The R-Design moves for a car that weighs that much though

[zieg]

Anyone know much about the lexus is system? I'm told it's a 30:70 default split so I'm thinking it's a center diff? All I get from them is "I dunno but it's the best :dunno: "

Also wondering why infiniti didn't integrate any torque vectoring into the q50. Seems like the attesa e-ts system is made more for making the car oversteer-happy than actually making the car go fast. :(

[bspot]

Gen V Haldex is a whole other ball game.

I haven't driven one yet, but reading about them from the Golf R and checking out the specs, they should behave completely differently from the old Haldex systems. This is the first one that can transfer before slip is detected. I think the programming on them can have them stay 50:50 or 40:60 (whatever the programmer picks) in sport mode on whatever vehicles are set up for that.

I went from Torsen to Gen II Haldex and it was disappointing, although functional. Gen IV and gen V sound like they can actually be fun to drive, not just get you out of a snow drift.

[dubhead]

Well wet snow frozen over night in Edmonton gave me the first test of the AWD in the S4(non sport diff) and it seems pretty solid. Stays nice and in line when commuting but goes nice and side ways with out out too much trouble when you want, then corrects it's self nicely. Tires are Blizzak lm60's

Looking forward to this winter and pushing a bit more than on my 6am commute home from work this morning and seeing how it feels with the stability control off.