Cops Kill Guy wielding 2x4 in Vancity

[broken_legs]

Police were busy this weekend....


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-dies-after-being-shot-by-vancouver-police-1.2846098




Vancouver police attend to a 51-year-old man seconds after he was shot Saturday afternoon. The two-by-four lies he was using to threaten police lies near the man's body. (Ron Dunnett/YouTube)

A 51-year-old man shot by Vancouver police has died of his injuries.

Police responded to a call about_a distraught man standing in the intersection of East 41st Avenue and Knight Street waving a wooden two-by-four around and shouting loudly at around 5 p.m. PT, police said.


Passersby survey the scene of a police-involved shooting last night in East Vancouver. (CBC)

When officers arrived at the scene, police say they were confronted by the man who refused to comply with their instructions.

​In an emailed statement, Const. Brian Montague says police used non-lethal bean bag rounds in an attempt to disarm the man, "but he was eventually shot."

Surely killing him was a last resort. 2x4s should be banned.

[kertejud2]

Just to be a stickler, 'Cops kill guy holding 2x4' would be a less interesting, albeit more accurate, title.

[spikerS]

did not read, but judging by the title, events went like this.

Disturbance phoned into police.
Police respond to find a nut job holding a chunk of 2x4
nut job refuses to listen to orders to drop it
nut job pulls the even stupider card of RAWR, advance on the cops with 2x4 raised
Cops shoot em.

amiright?

They call that suicide by cop.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by broken_legs
Police were busy this weekend....


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-dies-after-being-shot-by-vancouver-police-1.2846098

Surely killing him was a last resort. 2x4s should be banned.

Fucking seriously?

Clearly we have a case of a distraught individual.... What laziness and/or thirst for aggression makes someone think it's ok to shoot a man waving a heavy stick?

I couldn't think of a "weapon" more useless than a 2x4. Slow to swing, and easy to take away. Even my mother could dodge/disarm. The encumbrance is more of a liability to the wielder, than it presents a threat to someone around them.

Will the system course-correct, or will it circle the wagons to protect a bad actor?

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

Clearly we have a case of a distraught individual.... What laziness and/or thirst for aggression makes someone think it's ok to shoot a man waving a heavy stick?


When LTL measures fail, the police just pack up and go home?

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by FraserB


When LTL measures fail, the police just pack up and go home?

Your question is oversimplistic, and does not flatter you.

The answer is: Graduated response.

[J-D]

Came into this thread thinking the cops beat someone to death with a 2x4 :rofl:

[killramos]

To be fair I have seen cops get fucked up pretty good with a block of wood...

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/WALKING_TALL-0_1094596435.jpg

:dunno:

:rolleyes:

[Kloubek]

I don't think anyone has enough details to know whether the shooting was warranted. They tried less lethal means which didn't work. If the guy advanced at all on the cops with the 2X4, he deserved to be shot. And really, if you continue to refuse to comply with cops when you're holding a weapon (of any sort), you run the risk of being shot.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Kloubek
I don't think anyone has enough details to know whether the shooting was warranted. They tried less lethal means which didn't work. If the guy advanced at all on the cops with the 2X4, he deserved to be shot. And really, if you continue to refuse to comply with cops when you're holding a weapon (of any sort), you run the risk of being shot.

:werd:

Even with the info we have it sounds pretty cut and dry. Threaten cops with deadly weapon they are going to be very twitchy with the trigger.

I don't understand why people rush to the "he was clearly not in his right mind" argument. That's fine for court but in the real world crazy people are just as or more dangerous than sane people. You think that just because he has issues he is incapable of busting a cop or passerby's head in?

For example if that crazy greyhound beheading guy had a knife to buddies throat do you think it would be inappropriate to shoot him and prevent him from killing the guy?

[jwslam]

Originally posted by J-D
Came into this thread thinking the cops beat someone to death with a 2x4 :rofl:
+1
Left disappointed

[BandW]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


Your question is oversimplistic, and does not flatter you.

The answer is: Graduated response.

Doesn't LTL = graduated response? or am I just dumb?

[tomt64]

If the 'weapon' was an axe or similar, sure the guy is dangerous... If cops cant take down a 50something yr old w/ a 2x4 without shooting him they shouldnt be doing the job, sorry. Taser him for fucks sake.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by tomt64
If the 'weapon' was an axe or similar, sure the guy is dangerous... If cops cant take down a 50something yr old w/ a 2x4 without shooting him they shouldnt be doing the job, sorry. Taser him for fucks sake.

So let's just say, for the sake of argument, that some guy comes running at you swinging a big club which, if it were to connect with your head, could very well kill you. (And yes, a 2X4 IS a weapon. Just not likely as lethal as a bladed weapon)

Are you going to say... hey, wait... let me use a taser which may or may not work (and the cop may or may not have had in their possession), or are you going to defend yourself with the weapon you posses that you KNOW is going to save you?

I'll tell you this - if some guy starts attacking me with a 2X4 while I have my shotgun, he isn't going to be standing for very long.

People as so quick to jump on the cops. And I'm not even saying this was justified. However, on the flip side, nobody can really say yet whether it was NOT justified either.

And as far as the guy being 51 - that doesn't necessarily mean much. There are plenty of fit and strong middle aged men.

[bourge73]

Well I Wood have done the same

[The_Rural_Juror]

He probably didn't cedar cops and went over board.

[tomt64]

Originally posted by Kloubek


So let's just say, for the sake of argument, that some guy comes running at you swinging a big club which, if it were to connect with your head, could very well kill you. (And yes, a 2X4 IS a weapon. Just not likely as lethal as a bladed weapon)

Are you going to say... hey, wait... let me use a taser which may or may not work (and the cop may or may not have had in their possession), or are you going to defend yourself with the weapon you posses that you KNOW is going to save you?

I'll tell you this - if some guy starts attacking me with a 2X4 while I have my shotgun, he isn't going to be standing for very long.

People as so quick to jump on the cops. And I'm not even saying this was justified. However, on the flip side, nobody can really say yet whether it was NOT justified either.

And as far as the guy being 51 - that doesn't necessarily mean much. There are plenty of fit and strong middle aged men.

Thank christ you arent a cop.

You think the cops were standing close to him? Give me a break. They keep their space and should have no problem being able to pull a taser when/if charged upon. These guys are trained, you think his guy was trained in the art of using a 2x4 as a weapon?
Im nornally one to side with police, but come on a fucking 2x4. The guys more likely to splinter his hands than connect with a cop using one as a weapon.

[atgilchrist]

If the guy was wearing a thick coat, a taser wouldn't work. The article said that beanbags didn't work either.

[HiTempguy1]

Uh, isn't pulling a taser considering the same thing as pulling a gun? One just has a chance of not killing the person.

Tom, what exactly do you want the cops to do? The man wasn't a threat to police, he was a threat to PEOPLE. Should they just follow him (at over 30 feet, as it takes less time for an average male to cover 21 feet with a knife than to be shot) until he finds somebody to start beating with a 2x4? What happens if he gets in a vehicle? What what what what...

The police are called in to control a situation. The dude doesn't just eventually get to go "my bad, Imma head out now" and leave. If the guy is a threat to anyone, he better put down his weapon and come quietly, OR ELSE YOU DIE.

Thems the rules.

[msommers]

They should have fired plank shots to scare him first.

[M.alex]

Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

[Toma]

Time to take guns from cops till they learn how to keep their peckers in their pants.

[Seth1968]

I guess take down shots to the lower torso never came to mind. Or, they're clueless with a gun in hand.

[ZenOps]

Maybe he was mad that his board was only 1 3/4 x 3 1/2.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Maybe he was mad that his board was only 1 3/4 x 3 1/2. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Lex350]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Maybe he was mad that his board was only 1 3/4 x 3 1/2.


:D


This type of thing is easily avoided. When the cops tell you to put down the weapon...listen.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I guess take down shots to the lower torso never came to mind. Or, they're clueless with a gun in hand.

Not sure what you mean by this, but the police would not have been aiming for the suspect's head, law enforcement is trained to shoot center of mass. If you're talking about simply wounding the suspect, they aren't trained to do that either because a wounded assailant can still present a deadly threat.

[triplep]

Why couldn't they just try to shoot the 2x4.... that way the splinters would have disabled the man?

[killramos]

Originally posted by triplep
Why couldn't they just try to shoot the 2x4.... that way the splinters would have disabled the man?

The same reason they didn't try to shoot the hangnail off his big toe that was the reason he was so pissed off. :guns:

[firebane]

Originally posted by triplep
Why couldn't they just try to shoot the 2x4.... that way the splinters would have disabled the man?

This would only really be effective with the bean bags. A bullet wouldn't do anything to the 2x4 except go through it.

And if the guy was raging.. a bean bag to the 2x4 probably wouldn't do much.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Maybe he was mad that his board was only 1 3/4 x 3 1/2.

Coffee spit worthy:thumbsup:



Originally posted by FraserB


Not sure what you mean by this, but the police would not have been aiming for the suspect's head, law enforcement is trained to shoot center of mass. If you're talking about simply wounding the suspect, they aren't trained to do that either because a wounded assailant can still present a deadly threat.

I'm certain I could kick Mike Tyson's ass if he couldn't walk.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by tomt64
If the 'weapon' was an axe or similar, sure the guy is dangerous... If cops cant take down a 50something yr old w/ a 2x4 without shooting him they shouldnt be doing the job, sorry. Taser him for fucks sake.
Originally posted by tomt64
Thank christ you arent a cop.

You think the cops were standing close to him? Give me a break. They keep their space and should have no problem being able to pull a taser when/if charged upon. These guys are trained, you think his guy was trained in the art of using a 2x4 as a weapon?
Im nornally one to side with police, but come on a fucking 2x4. The guys more likely to splinter his hands than connect with a cop using one as a weapon. Should the cop have picked up his own 2x4 and then proceeded to duel with the guy? Would that be fair in your mind? What would you do? Wade on in there and catch it with your bare hands then take it away from him? Maybe double team him? One of you is going to get hit for sure... which one? Did you see the 2x4? It was 5 feet long. Would you like to take a hit from that?

If you don't honestly believe that a 2x4 (aka club, bat etc) is a dangerous weapon then you're a total fucking tool. Though, we can easily disabuse you of this. Why not come to a beyond meet, and we'll give baygirl a 2x4 and let her fuck you up with it. I was going to say spikers, but honestly he doesn't need it lol...

I also loved your taser comment. So, in your mind, tasers can go through anything, including a winter coat? With an effective range of 15 feet? Would you like to get that close to someone and hope that the taser goes through it and takes him down while he's charging at you with a 5 foot long club?

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I'm certain I could kick Mike Tyson's ass if he couldn't walk.

Give someone a knife, club or gun and putting one in someone's leg isn't going to do too much.

Notwithstanding the fact it would be next to impossible to shoot someone in the leg with a handgun, especially in a situation where adrenaline is pumping and your target is moving around. COM is a larger target and the chances of incapacitation are greater when your accuracy is affected.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by tomt64


Thank christ you arent a cop.

You think the cops were standing close to him? Give me a break. They keep their space and should have no problem being able to pull a taser when/if charged upon. These guys are trained, you think his guy was trained in the art of using a 2x4 as a weapon?


You're making vast assumptions here.

1) Perhaps they were not in a position to be standing far away.
2) Even if they were a distance, it takes only seconds to make up ground - especially with a 2X4 of that size.
3) Does someone NEED to be trained on how to use a 2X4? Man has been using sticks as weapons for tens of thousands of years. Do you not know how to swing an object? I do.
4) The guy didn't go down with beanbags. What would make you think he would go down with a taser? Assuming, of course, they had one available.

You should thank Christ that YOU'RE not a cop. If you were, you'd have a good chance of being dead by now because you apparently have no clue where the line needs to be drawn. If a guy advances on a cop with a weapon, they should (if possible) be hit with less lethal weapons. Which he was. If he continues to advance, he likely needs to be shot.

Say whatever you want, but if you followed your own advice and you were the only cop on scene, I imagine at this time you'd have a real chance of being in hospital with a concussion or in the morgue.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Kloubek


You're making vast assumptions here.

1) Perhaps they were not in a position to be standing far away.
2) Even if they were a distance, it takes only seconds to make up ground - especially with a 2X4 of that size.
3) Does someone NEED to be trained on how to use a 2X4? Man has been using sticks as weapons for tens of thousands of years. Do you not know how to swing an object? I do.
4) The guy didn't go down with beanbags. What would make you think he would go down with a taser? Assuming, of course, they had one available.

You should thank Christ that YOU'RE not a cop. If you were, you'd have a good chance of being dead by now because you apparently have no clue where the line needs to be drawn. If a guy advances on a cop with a weapon, they should (if possible) be hit with less lethal weapons. Which he was. If he continues to advance, he likely needs to be shot.

Say whatever you want, but if you followed your own advice and you were the only cop on scene, I imagine at this time you'd have a real chance of being in hospital with a concussion or in the morgue.

:werd:

The vast majority of cases where a gun is used in self defense is within 5 yards. Police officers are also not expected to be marksmen regardless of adrenaline. AKA They really arent capable of hitting people effectively at range.

I think people watch to many TV shows...

[Seth1968]

If a cop can't shoot a stick wielding person in the legs, then they shouldn't have a gun at all.

FFS. The aggressor would have to come within a few feet of the cops to pose any danger. Both legs are an ample and simple target at that range for a few rounds.

[killramos]

Can we get a group buy going where we give Seth a shot from an epi pen and put him in CSC's gallery range with a custom scenario of guy with a 2X4 and see how many times he hits the stick with a police trigger weight handgun?

[v2kai]

Originally posted by Seth1968
If a cop can't shoot a stick wielding person in the legs, then they shouldn't have a gun at all.

FFS. The aggressor would have to come within a few feet of the cops to pose any danger. Both legs are an ample and simple target at that range for a few rounds.

Depending on the surroundings, the risk of missing a leg and having your round end up somewhere else might be a consideration before you go wild west style at his legs. lol
:guns:

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Seth1968
If a cop can't shoot a stick wielding person in the legs, then they shouldn't have a gun at all.

FFS. The aggressor would have to come within a few feet of the cops to pose any danger. Both legs are an ample and simple target at that range for a few rounds.
Originally posted by v2kai
Depending on the surroundings, the risk of missing a leg and having your round end up somewhere else might be a consideration before you go wild west style at his legs. lol
:guns: This exactly! This was on a street. Not in a shooting gallery where you're all calm and relaxed. People were ALL AROUND. How would you like to be reading a headline like this.. "3 Year old killed by richocet in bungled police shooting" They shoot for the center of mass for many reasons Seth.


http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound

"In reality, this thinking is a result of 'training by Hollywood,' in which movie and TV cops are able to do anything to control the outcomes of events that serve the director's dramatic interests. It reflects a misconception of real-life dynamics and ends up imposing unrealistic expectations of skill on real-life officers."

<snip>

"Hands and arms can be the fastest-moving body parts. For example, an average suspect can move his hand and forearm across his body to a 90-degree angle in 12/100 of a second. He can move his hand from his hip to shoulder height in 18/100 of a second.

"The average officer pulling the trigger as fast as he can on a Glock, one of the fastest- cycling semi-autos, requires 1/4 second to discharge each round.

"There is no way an officer can react, track, shoot and reliably hit a threatening suspect's forearm or a weapon in a suspect's hand in the time spans involved.

"Even if the suspect held his weapon arm steady for half a second or more, an accurate hit would be highly unlikely, and in police shootings the suspect and his weapon are seldom stationary. Plus, the officer himself may be moving as he shoots.

"The upper arms move more slowly than the lower arms and hands. But shooting at the upper arms, there's a greater chance you're going to hit the suspect's brachial artery or center mass, areas with a high probability of fatality. So where does shooting only to wound come in when even areas considered by some to 'safe' from fatality risk could in fact carry the same level of risk as targeting center mass?

"Legs tend initially to move slower than arms and to maintain more static positions. However, areas of the lower trunk and upper thigh are rich with vascularity. A suspect who's hit there can bleed out in seconds if one of the major arteries is severed, so again shooting just to wound may not result in just wounding.

"On the other hand, if an officer manages to take a suspect's legs out non-fatally, that still leaves the offender's hands free to shoot. His ability to threaten lives hasn't necessarily been stopped."

[tomt64]

Originally posted by codetrap
Should the cop have picked up his own 2x4 and then proceeded to duel with the guy? Would that be fair in your mind? What would you do? Wade on in there and catch it with your bare hands then take it away from him? Maybe double team him? One of you is going to get hit for sure... which one? Did you see the 2x4? It was 5 feet long. Would you like to take a hit from that?


Yeah I would ask him to hold on and let me hit up home depot to grab a similar weapon and let him take a free swing while I stand there like a snowman! I take it youve had plenty of experiences swinging a 5 ft 2x4 knowing how effective it is as a 'weapon'.


Originally posted by codetrap


If you don't honestly believe that a 2x4 (aka club, bat etc) is a dangerous weapon then you're a total fucking tool. Though, we can easily disabuse you of this. Why not come to a beyond meet, and we'll give baygirl a 2x4 and let her fuck you up with it. I was going to say spikers, but honestly he doesn't need it lol...



So because that person has a 2x4, Im going to have to shoot them... Standard protocol here. Im sure spikers would be happy about that.


I guarantee anyone here if that person was family, you would be saying there is a better way to deal with it.

Not applicable to all situations but police in England mostly deal with this stuff without guns no problem:

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/uk-police-stop-someone-knife/

Of course it varies in the situation, but IN THIS SITUATION this guy was not going after any civilian, standing in the middle of a road with a 2x4, refusing to comply with cop instructions. Was he charging anyone? Nope... Great time to shoot him.


Originally posted by Kloubek


3) Does someone NEED to be trained on how to use a 2X4? Man has been using sticks as weapons for tens of thousands of years. Do you not know how to swing an object? I do.



A 2x4 is not a one handed weapon that can be used effectively, simple as that.... A 'stick' would be a little different.


Originally posted by Kloubek

Say whatever you want, but if you followed your own advice and you were the only cop on scene, I imagine at this time you'd have a real chance of being in hospital with a concussion or in the morgue.

Right because only 1 cop responds to situations like this and of course you hear about cops getting killed/being put in the hospital by 2x4s every week.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by killramos
Can we get a group buy going where we give Seth a shot from an epi pen and put him in CSC's gallery range with a custom scenario of guy with a 2X4 and see how many times he hits the stick with a police trigger weight handgun?



Originally posted by v2kai


Depending on the surroundings, the risk of missing a leg and having your round end up somewhere else might be a consideration before you go wild west style at his legs. lol
:guns:



Originally posted by codetrap
This exactly! This was on a street. Not in a shooting gallery where you're all calm and relaxed. People were ALL AROUND. How would you like to be reading a headline like this.. &quot;3 Year old killed by richocet in bungled police shooting&quot; They shoot for the center of mass for many reasons Seth.


http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound


Thanks for the good points.

I partially yield.

[killramos]

Originally posted by tomt64


Yeah I would ask him to hold on and let me hit up home depot to grab a similar weapon and let him take a free swing while I stand there like a snowman! I take it youve had plenty of experiences swinging a 5 ft 2x4 knowing how effective it is as a 'weapon'.



So because that person has a 2x4, Im going to have to shoot them... Standard protocol here. Im sure spikers would be happy about that.


I guarantee anyone here if that person was family, you would be saying there is a better way to deal with it.

Not applicable to all situations but police in England mostly deal with this stuff without guns no problem:

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/uk-police-stop-someone-knife/

Of course it varies in the situation, but IN THIS SITUATION this guy was not going after any civilian, standing in the middle of a road with a 2x4, refusing to comply with cop instructions. Was he charging anyone? Nope... Great time to shoot him.



A 2x4 is not a one handed weapon that can be used effectively, simple as that.... A 'stick' would be a little different.



Right because only 1 cop responds to situations like this and of course you hear about cops getting killed/being put in the hospital by 2x4s every week.

So at what point do you think it would be a good time to shoot him. when the 2x4 is a quarter inch from you or your partner's head?

Not to mention a 50 year old guy is not that old. My dad is older than that, and you better bet if he or anyone else wanted to kill you with a 2x4 he could :rofl:

[A790]

Originally posted by codetrap
I also loved your taser comment. So, in your mind, tasers can go through anything, including a winter coat? With an effective range of 15 feet? Would you like to get that close to someone and hope that the taser goes through it and takes him down while he's charging at you with a 5 foot long club?
Tasers are effective through all but seriously thick outerwear.

Have you been tased before? I have. I went down like a sack of potatoes and I'm a pretty big guy. The bigger you are, the harder to fall.

If there was a valid reason a taser was not employed in this situation I'd love to here it.

I'm not arguing against the cops or anything like that. I'm just genuinely curious why lethal force was used as opposed to proven non-lethal force.

PS - being tased sucks a bag of dicks. damn.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by A790
I'm not arguing against the cops or anything like that. I'm just genuinely curious why lethal force was used as opposed to proven non-lethal force.
.

Const. Brian Montague says police used non-lethal bean bag rounds in an attempt to disarm the man

I find it highly unlikely they just gunned the guy down while he stood there. The most likely situation, although the article doesn't mention it, is that he charged an officer.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by A790

Tasers are effective through all but seriously thick outerwear.

Have you been tased before? I have. I went down like a sack of potatoes and I'm a pretty big guy. The bigger you are, the harder to fall.


PS - being tased sucks a bag of dicks. damn.

Yes it does. I was tased as part of a training program, and you get a 5 second burst each time the trigger is pulled. I did my best to keep my feet under me, but I was told at the 2.5-3 second mark, i toppled like a cedar.

I have said this before, but I was taken down at gun point for a pretty realistic looking cap gun, and do you want to know how I survived? I LISTENED AND OBEYED ALL ORDERS BY THE OFFICERS WITH NO SUDDEN OR THREATENING MOVEMENTS I got dragged to the ground, a knee in the neck and dirt in my mouth. Yeah, it sucked for a few minutes, but when everything was figured out, I dusted myself off and realized what an idiot I was. Moral of the story, don't try to be a hero, don't care who might be right or wrong, just comply, and sort it out after. Follow that and everyone survives, every time, 100% guaranteed. Act aggressive and threaten the officers that have guns leveled at you, you are asking to be put down.

To all those calling out the cops here, at what point do you start placing responsibility on the lunatic brandishing a weapon on the lunatic?

[BavarianBeast]

It's a damn 5-6 foot 2x4, what a coward that cop is for even thinking about using a gun, let alone actually fatally shooting him.

That would be so easy to disarm, what a fucking joke. :drama:

[codetrap]

Originally posted by tomt64

Yeah I would ask him to hold on and let me hit up home depot to grab a similar weapon and let him take a free swing while I stand there like a snowman! I take it youve had plenty of experiences swinging a 5 ft 2x4 knowing how effective it is as a 'weapon'.

So because that person has a 2x4, Im going to have to shoot them... Standard protocol here. Im sure spikers would be happy about that.

I guarantee anyone here if that person was family, you would be saying there is a better way to deal with it.

Not applicable to all situations but police in England mostly deal with this stuff without guns no problem:

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/uk-police-stop-someone-knife/

Of course it varies in the situation, but IN THIS SITUATION this guy was not going after any civilian, standing in the middle of a road with a 2x4, refusing to comply with cop instructions. Was he charging anyone? Nope... Great time to shoot him.

A 2x4 is not a one handed weapon that can be used effectively, simple as that.... A 'stick' would be a little different.

Right because only 1 cop responds to situations like this and of course you hear about cops getting killed/being put in the hospital by 2x4s every week. You're so full of shit. You don't know he wasn't charging people. You don't know what he was doing. Were you there? Did you see it first hand? Do you know what he was saying he was going to do? No, you're just assuming.. Police responded to a 911 call that some guy was losing his shit holding a 2x4. So he was just standing there like a snowman?

Your myopic view of the situation is laughable. You seem to have totally glossed over the fact that the police tried to use less lethal means to disarm him. What were they supposed to do? Walk away? Then what? All the cops should holster their weapons and wade in for some hand to hand? Risk getting beaned with a 2x4? Would you? Screw that BS. They did exactly what they're supposed to. If you holding a weapon and you don't obey the guy with the gun, then expect to get put down.

Let's do this mythbusters style then. I'll get a 2x4, and you can try and take it away from me. Hell, you can have as many buddies as you want and try and take it away from me. We'll see if I can connect with any of them with it and how much damage it does to that person. If I manage to hurt any one of them, I win. If you can get it away from me before I hurt someone or myself, then you win. Sound like a plan?

[codetrap]

Originally posted by A790

Tasers are effective through all but seriously thick outerwear.

Have you been tased before? I have. I went down like a sack of potatoes and I'm a pretty big guy. The bigger you are, the harder to fall.

If there was a valid reason a taser was not employed in this situation I'd love to here it.

I'm not arguing against the cops or anything like that. I'm just genuinely curious why lethal force was used as opposed to proven non-lethal force.

PS - being tased sucks a bag of dicks. damn. They used non-lethal beanbags on him first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say they didn't use a taser because dude was wearing a leather jacket. My understanding is a taser will not pierce leather or a thick winter coat. Plus they would have had to get within 15 feet of the guy and then take a shot. Most likely at the 15' range, the prongs wouldn't penetrate anyways.. so they'd have to get in really close.. 10' away from a guy with a 5' weapon reach is too close to stop and take a shot and hope it works.

I'm sure we'll hear about the details eventually. It's just frustrating to see these idiot armchair types go on about how the "police should have done something different" and totally ignore the fact these crazies are fucking armed and dangerous, even if it's a club and not a gun. It's all the cops fault, and never the crazy mother fucker who started the situation.... :rolleyes:

How to defeat a taser (http://www.ehow.com/how_4927858_stop-tasers.html)

[killramos]

I would love one of our resident police officers to tell me what the protocol is if some raises their fists to fight a cop.

I would put money on the fact that the response is still to unholster their side arm...

Meaning even if the guy didn't have a weapon (2x4) there is a good chance they would still shoot him. Police are not paid to engage in hand to hand combat. I am not talking about mild resisting arrest here.

I know I wouldn't wait until he gets a couple of blows in :dunno:

[FraserB]

.

[A790]

Originally posted by codetrap
I'm sure we'll hear about the details eventually. It's just frustrating to see these idiot armchair types go on about how the &quot;police should have done something different&quot; and totally ignore the fact these crazies are fucking armed and dangerous, even if it's a club and not a gun. It's all the cops fault, and never the crazy mother fucker who started the situation.... :rolleyes:
Oh yea, I feel you. Every time I just roll my eyes. I'm all for being critical of our LEO's, but let's also be realistic. Protocol is protocol by virtue of necessity, not convenience.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by codetrap
It's just frustrating to see these idiot armchair types go on about how the &quot;police should have done something...[/URL]

It's also frustrating when you're called an "idiot" due to a disagreement on a particular topic.

With that said, I think most people are indeed idiots, but most are void of malice. Regardless, I most certainly would not publicly insult such.

Question everything, assume nothing, and buy time when you're in trouble. Life 101, period.

Now where's that slut penguin?

[Robin Goodfellow]

What really amazes me among this whole thread is the fear factor around a 2x4. Someone commented that the wielder was at greater risk of getting a splinter.

I'm fairly familiar with 2x4's, and they're not exactly easy to handle. While they can be easily carried from A->B, it's not like one could swing one with any ease.

Go home and try it. Grab a four foot 2x4 and do five minutes of "Star wars kid". Unless you're a framer, hands are gonna cramp.

3' length? 4' length? 5' Length? One hand or two? Unless this guy was built like "The Rock", it seems like the very effort required to maintain a grip would put the holder at a disadvantage.

And the swing? Once the holder managers to complete the slo-mo swing, he's brutally off balance, and vulnerable.

The swing is is easily anticipated, and easily parried with a baton, at which point the fellow could be taken down (moreso, as he doesn't have use of his hands)... Doable for one trained individual, and two such people to do it.

This is a black eye for the VPD on two counts: The inability to takedown an encumbered man, and the accompanying unnecessary escalation.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
What really amazes me among this whole thread is the fear factor around a 2x4. Someone commented that the wielder was at greater risk of getting a splinter.

I'm fairly familiar with 2x4's, and they're not exactly easy to handle. While they can be easily carried from A-&gt;B, it's not like one could swing one with any ease.

Go home and try it. Grab a four foot 2x4 and do five minutes of &quot;Star wars kid&quot;. Unless you're a framer, hands are gonna cramp.

3' length? 4' length? 5' Length? One hand or two? Unless this guy was built like &quot;The Rock&quot;, it seems like the very effort required to maintain a grip would put the holder at a disadvantage.

And the swing? Once the holder managers to complete the slo-mo swing, he's brutally off balance, and vulnerable.

The swing is is easily anticipated, and easily parried with a baton, at which point the fellow could be taken down (moreso, as he doesn't have use of his hands)... Doable for one trained individual, and two such people to do it.

This is a black eye for the VPD on two counts: The inability to takedown an encumbered man, and the accompanying unnecessary escalation.


Originally posted by killramos
I would love one of our resident police officers to tell me what the protocol is if some raises their fists to fight a cop.

I would put money on the fact that the response is still to unholster their side arm...

Meaning even if the guy didn't have a weapon (2x4) there is a good chance they would still shoot him. Police are not paid to engage in hand to hand combat. I am not talking about mild resisting arrest here.

I know I wouldn't wait until he gets a couple of blows in :dunno:

Hate to quote myself but i really think this is an issue that EVERYONE is ignoring. If you tried to fight a cop with your fists up you are in all likelihood still getting shot.

2X4 just makes it worse regardless of its effectiveness as a weapon. How many people have been killed with longswords in history :dunno:

[FraserB]

.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by A790


If there was a valid reason a taser was not employed in this situation I'd love to here it.

As I stated, a taser is considered the same thing as a gun is it not?

At that point, I'm going with a gun (and from the laws perspective, you probably should to). So its not a valid point. Gun or taser, ITS THE SAME THING in the eyes of the law.

[revelations]

Originally posted by killramos
I would love one of our resident police officers to tell me what the protocol is if some raises their fists to fight a cop.




If some 5'4" drunk idiot challenged a member who is 6'4" (seen it happen many times), it typically lasts about 2.5 seconds without any "tools" used.


If a 5'4" female member was challenged by a 300lb roid-raging, meat-head at a bar fight, then the following may apply:

OC spray -> taser -> baton

Typically, the more muscle mass a person has, the better the Taser is at incapacitating them. A person on roid rage (or other chemicals) may not respond to OC.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
What really amazes me among this whole thread is the fear factor around a 2x4. Someone commented that the wielder was at greater risk of getting a splinter.

I'm fairly familiar with 2x4's, and they're not exactly easy to handle. While they can be easily carried from A-&gt;B, it's not like one could swing one with any ease.

Go home and try it. Grab a four foot 2x4 and do five minutes of &quot;Star wars kid&quot;. Unless you're a framer, hands are gonna cramp.

3' length? 4' length? 5' Length? One hand or two? Unless this guy was built like &quot;The Rock&quot;, it seems like the very effort required to maintain a grip would put the holder at a disadvantage.

And the swing? Once the holder managers to complete the slo-mo swing, he's brutally off balance, and vulnerable.

The swing is is easily anticipated, and easily parried with a baton, at which point the fellow could be taken down (moreso, as he doesn't have use of his hands)... Doable for one trained individual, and two such people to do it.

This is a black eye for the VPD on two counts: The inability to takedown an encumbered man, and the accompanying unnecessary escalation.

You're not going to block a 5' 2x4 with a 20" metal baton. The shock of impact aside, you're demanding that the officer get close enough that he's within reach of the assailant. It's possible to swing a 2x4 with enough force to break it, now imagine that impact on someone's head. That's why you use something that keeps you out of reach.

The hit him with beanbags and he was still a threat to the officers/public, so they escalated it up the use of force continuum.

[revelations]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


As I stated, a taser is considered the same thing as a gun is it not?

At that point, I'm going with a gun (and from the laws perspective, you probably should to). So its not a valid point. Gun or taser, ITS THE SAME THING in the eyes of the law.

No, a Taser is considered a less-than-lethal, directed energy weapon.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by revelations


No, a Taser is considered a less-than-lethal, directed energy weapon.

Is there anywhere in Alberta you can go and get hit with a Taser?

I know it's bizarre, but I seriously want to try it.

[firebane]

There was a big incident a few years back in Vancouver where they tased a guy and he died and it created a massive backlash. I'd say they are a bit hesitant to use them now.

[englishbob]

DT Calgary bars most weekends would be a good start.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by englishbob
DT Calgary bars most weekends would be a good start.

Haha, I just want the Taser. Not the criminal record that usually goes along with it.

I know the Taser manufacturer is in Arizona, so maybe a side trip when I'm in Vegas.

[A790]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
At that point, I'm going with a gun (and from the laws perspective, you probably should to). So its not a valid point. Gun or taser, ITS THE SAME THING in the eyes of the law.
Maybe, but chances are if homebody had been hit with a taser he'd still be alive. Maybe a gun and a taser are interchangeable from a legal perspective, but they certainly aren't from a human one.

[MGCM]

TAKE OUR COPS TO RUSSIA FOR TRAINING!!!!!!!!!

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by A790

Maybe, but chances are if homebody had been hit with a taser he'd still be alive. Maybe a gun and a taser are interchangeable from a legal perspective, but they certainly aren't from a human one.

This is why I'm extremely against tasers being used; I hate that there's variability about the outcome. If someone get's tasered, maybe it's effective and subdues them, maybe it kills them, maybe it has no effect; it's a roll of the dice.

Based on what we know right now, it seems like yet another case of someone threatening the public/police and failing to take the safe way out when it was offered by the police. Once you commit to non-compliance you're on your own imo.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[A790]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs


This is why I'm extremely against tasers being used; I hate that there's variability about the outcome. If someone get's tasered, maybe it's effective and subdues them, maybe it kills them, maybe it has no effect; it's a roll of the dice.
So the alternative is to use a firearm, which will almost certainly result in fatality?

From a human perspective, I'd much rather get tased than shot. From a LEO perspective, if I view the taser in the same light as a firearm and use it then the worst case scenario is death (as opposed to the expected result).

You being extremely against the use of tasers appears to be quite irrational. Can you explain your perspective a bit more?

[Inzane]

I"m just curious. Asking because I don't know...

Are cops not trained to defend themselves with tonfas anymore?

Surely tonfa >> 2x4 in close quarters. :dunno:

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Inzane
I&quot;m just curious. Asking because I don't know...

Are cops not trained to defend themselves with tonfas anymore?

Surely tonfa &gt;&gt; 2x4 in close quarters. :dunno: I've never seen one of those on a cop outside of a movie or TV show.

Seth, I've always preferred the term idiot. Originally, I used it with "Don't be an".. but I got tired of the repetitive typing. That, and sometimes it just feels right. There are people on beyond that I truly wonder how they can manage to use a computer. Idiot savant perhaps? But, all that aside, since you do have a point, I'll try and start using ignoramus, which is much more applicable.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by A790

So the alternative is to use a firearm, which will almost certainly result in fatality?

From a human perspective, I'd much rather get tased than shot. From a LEO perspective, if I view the taser in the same light as a firearm and use it then the worst case scenario is death (as opposed to the expected result).

You being extremely against the use of tasers appears to be quite irrational. Can you explain your perspective a bit more?

I don't really see why it's irrational; I think the near-certainty of outcomes (yes, it's not absolute) for their other tools is preferable to the variability that tasers seem to have.

If someone is an immediate threat to the safety of others or the police then I think using a firearm is warranted with the express understanding that it's going to be lethal action. If they aren't an immediate threat to the police or the public then that's where it makes sense to use other options if the situations circumstances work; baton, pepper spray, etc.

Tasers blur the line too much when their outcome isn't easily predictable. Creates awkward situations where non-lethal was the intention but it ends up being accidently lethal or situations where people were at risk but non-lethal was used and shown to be ineffective resulting in preventable losses.

Personally, if I was an officer I would feel much much worse about intending something to be non-lethal and it resulting in a death than I would using a firearm and getting the exact outcome I expected.

[Xtrema]

If dude got bean bagged and still going. Cops had done their due diligence.

If dude is mental enough not to comply, taser probably make it even worse. Plus if dude has a 6ft 2x4, you need to be at least 20ft from suspect. While it's still well within taser range, if taser doesn't take him down or missed, cop is going to have a 2x4 in his face.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Xtrema
If dude got bean bagged and still going. Cops had their due diligence.

If dude is mental enough not to comply, taser probably make it even worse.

:werd:

I have no idea why people are still suggesting using a taser after a guy was bean bagged standing and without any proof that there was a taser at the scene.

Crazy guy with a weapon would not obey police. They could not subdue him with less lethal on hand. Decision was made to open fire with deadly force. Man tragically died in hospital.

There is nothing sinister about what happened. Police followed the book to the letter.

/thread


:closed:

[Inzane]

Originally posted by codetrap
I've never seen one of those on a cop outside of a movie or TV show.

Interesting. Maybe you haven't seen them because they were supposedly replaced by collapsible batons some years ago.

I'm sure I've seen tonfa style batons on police before, I just don't recall where or how long ago that was.

Funnily enough my kid's police/swat halloween costume included a (plastic) tonfa style baton as one of the accessories. :D

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by FraserB


You're not going to block a 5' 2x4 with a 20&quot; metal baton.

Upon learning that the telescoping batons are used, and not Tonfas, I'd have to agree.

Tonfa would be perfect for this. Baton, not so.

[Sentry]

Typically having a shotgun aimed at you and fired and then being hit with a projectile (not knowing it was only a beanbag) would invoke an "Oh fuck I've been shot" response.

The fact the guy shrugged them off leads me to believe he was never going to stand down no matter what they threw at him. :dunno:

[Inzane]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
Tonfa would be perfect for this.

Exactly, but as you said if they're not using them anymore then its a moot point.
(I missed FraserB's earlier comment somehow).

[frizzlefry]

Any reason officers don't shoot out the kneecaps or something? Beanbags may not have worked but I'm sure with a shot out kneecap he would have been pretty much incapacitated. Just curious.

[killramos]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
Any reason officers don't shoot out the kneecaps or something? Beanbags may not have worked but I'm sure with a shot out kneecap he would have been pretty much incapacitated. Just curious.

We need a RED THE DAMN THREAD emoticon :banghead:

The same reason officers dont shoot the 2x4 out of his hand, shoot him in the leg, or shoot the gangrenous hangnail off his big toe.

In a high pressure situation you cannot hit with any modicum of accuracy. Especially with a handgun.

:whipped:

[tomt64]

Originally posted by codetrap
You're so full of shit.

Let's do this mythbusters style then. I'll get a 2x4, and you can try and take it away from me. Hell, you can have as many buddies as you want and try and take it away from me. We'll see if I can connect with any of them with it and how much damage it does to that person. If I manage to hurt any one of them, I win. If you can get it away from me before I hurt someone or myself, then you win. Sound like a plan?

Sure, Im down for an experiment with a constant know-it-all. You are so condescending. Ill attempt to take you down with no weapons/armour, whatever. When and where? Make sure you bring your 5ft 2x4 aswell.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
Any reason officers don't shoot out the kneecaps or something? Beanbags may not have worked but I'm sure with a shot out kneecap he would have been pretty much incapacitated. Just curious.

Dangerous and ineffective. Police shoot to stop a threat not to wound.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by FraserB


Dangerous and ineffective. Police shoot to stop a threat not to wound.

Fair enough. Makes sense. Swing a weapon at the police and you risk getting shot IMO. Unfortunate but, well, don't threaten the police.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by tomt64
Sure, Im down for an experiment with a constant know-it-all. You are so condescending. Ill attempt to take you down with no weapons/armour, whatever. When and where? Make sure you bring your 5ft 2x4 aswell.
Pfft oldest trick in the book. You're just gonna call the cops on him and he'll get shot just like the guy in Van. :D

[codetrap]

Originally posted by tomt64
Sure, Im down for an experiment with a constant know-it-all. You are so condescending. Ill attempt to take you down with no weapons/armour, whatever. When and where? Make sure you bring your 5ft 2x4 aswell. You're right. I am condescending, but usually only when warranted. A 5 foot 2x4 weighs about 6.5lbs. My wingchun staff from is a bit heavier than that, and has about the same reach. It's a little thinner, but it's less likely to leave splinters...

If you honestly believe that I'm going to meet up with you in real life and attempt to hit you with a club, then you are crazy. I don't have any desire to end up like the guy in the article. The entire comment was designed to make you think.

Here's what happens when you hit someone with a 2x4
bSp2Ihu-1_Y

[A790]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs


I don't really see why it's irrational; I think the near-certainty of outcomes (yes, it's not absolute) for their other tools is preferable to the variability that tasers seem to have.

If someone is an immediate threat to the safety of others or the police then I think using a firearm is warranted with the express understanding that it's going to be lethal action. If they aren't an immediate threat to the police or the public then that's where it makes sense to use other options if the situations circumstances work; baton, pepper spray, etc.

Tasers blur the line too much when their outcome isn't easily predictable. Creates awkward situations where non-lethal was the intention but it ends up being accidently lethal or situations where people were at risk but non-lethal was used and shown to be ineffective resulting in preventable losses.

Personally, if I was an officer I would feel much much worse about intending something to be non-lethal and it resulting in a death than I would using a firearm and getting the exact outcome I expected.
There have been under 700 deaths via taser use in the USA since 2001. Considering the extent of their use, that's a very low number.

I agree re: lines being blurred, but also feel that using a taser in lieu of a firearm more or less negates that issue. If the intent was a takedown, a taser would be a preferable choice compared to a firearm.


Originally posted by Xtrema
If dude got bean bagged and still going. Cops had done their due diligence.

If dude is mental enough not to comply, taser probably make it even worse. Plus if dude has a 6ft 2x4, you need to be at least 20ft from suspect. While it's still well within taser range, if taser doesn't take him down or missed, cop is going to have a 2x4 in his face.
You don't understand how a taser works. The fact that he was hit with a bean bag and was still standing is more or less irrelevant as it's a completely different type of deterrent. A taser completely eliminates your ability to function. All your muscles involuntarily contract, and ultimately, you wind up on the floor every single time. The bigger someone is, the more muscle they have to contract, and the harder they fall.



Originally posted by killramos
I have no idea why people are still suggesting using a taser after a guy was bean bagged standing and without any proof that there was a taser at the scene.

Again, the fact that he was bean bagged is irrelevant. They are two completely different types of deterrents. A bean bag is basically a really powerful paintball. It hurts like hell. Some people can withstand that force (and pain) and keep going. You get hit with a taser you're going down regardless of how mentally unstable or physically able you are.

Anyways, I was simply asking why it wasn't even considered an option. I'm sure there are valid reasons but they've yet to be disclosed.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by A790
Anyways, I was simply asking why it wasn't even considered an option. I'm sure there are valid reasons but they've yet to be disclosed. It seems like it's possible they didn't have one!

This is from 2012, so it may have changed, but if things over there move at the speed of government.....

Right now, only 107 officers carry a Taser, and a third of those are members of the emergency response team. As of December, there were 1,327 sworn officers in the VPD.

Some of the other new policies include:

Tasers are only to be used on violent people
Officers must give verbal warnings before shocking anyone
They must use, or consider using, crisis intervention first
They must avoid chest shots
Shocks cannot last for more than five seconds


Read more: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/fraction-of-vpd-carries-tasers-under-new-rules-1.759846#ixzz3K1mXXHkE

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by A790

You don't understand how a taser works. The fact that he was hit with a bean bag and was still standing is more or less irrelevant as it's a completely different type of deterrent. A taser completely eliminates your ability to function. All your muscles involuntarily contract, and ultimately, you wind up on the floor every single time. The bigger someone is, the more muscle they have to contract, and the harder they fall.

It's two spears fired that both must penetrate and make skin contact before it's effective. Not only that, the two spears must land far enough apart on the body in order for it to work. Hence the minimum distance for taser is 15ft, otherwise you won't get enough spread if you are too close.

Effectiveness lowers when someone with thick clothing.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by A790

There have been under 700 deaths via taser use in the USA since 2001. Considering the extent of their use, that's a very low number.

I agree re: lines being blurred, but also feel that using a taser in lieu of a firearm more or less negates that issue. If the intent was a takedown, a taser would be a preferable choice compared to a firearm.

Agreed that as a percentage of usage that's likely quite low but I have to think that in all of those situations tasers weren't intended as a lethal option.

In high stress, fast paced and potentially grave situations I'm just a supporter of cutting out unpredictable variables wherever possible.

[tomt64]

Originally posted by codetrap
You're right. I am condescending, but usually only when warranted. A 5 foot 2x4 weighs about 6.5lbs. My wingchun staff from is a bit heavier than that, and has about the same reach. It's a little thinner, but it's less likely to leave splinters...

If you honestly believe that I'm going to meet up with you in real life and attempt to hit you with a club, then you are crazy. I don't have any desire to end up like the guy in the article. The entire comment was designed to make you think.

Here's what happens when you hit someone with a 2x4
bSp2Ihu-1_Y

the finest keyboard warrior alive, codetrap!

A wingchun staff is completely different from a 2x4 you bell end.

So I guess you should take back your lovely kind words if you arent willing to prove it.

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by FraserB


Is there anywhere in Alberta you can go and get hit with a Taser?

I know it's bizarre, but I seriously want to try it.


There's that VR combat simulator at the gun range in Columbia Falls, MT where they hook up a taser belt to you and you get shocked every time you get shot. They said they can dial it up from a mildly painful shock all the way to collapsing to the floor while shitting yourself. I want to try it next time I'm down there :D

It might not be exactly the same as getting stabbed with taser prongs, but I'm sure it would be a good benchmark for you

[A790]

Originally posted by tomt64


the finest keyboard warrior alive, codetrap!

A wingchun staff is completely different from a 2x4 you bell end.

So I guess you should take back your lovely kind words if you arent willing to prove it.
Or maybe you should use your head. Grow up dude.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by A790

Or maybe you should use your head. Grow up dude.

I have a great idea, and he can use his head too!

Let's put his theory to the test, and use his head as the target. Someone can stand 15ft away, and start swinging a 2x4 at his head, and see if he reaches for a taser, or a glock to defend himself.

[Traffic_Cop]

Originally posted by Xtrema


It's two spears fired that both must penetrate and make skin contact before it's effective. Not only that, the two spears must land far enough apart on the body in order for it to work. Hence the minimum distance for taser is 15ft, otherwise you won't get enough spread if you are too close.

Effectiveness lowers when someone with thick clothing.

There is no minimum distance with a Taser. A Taser can be used in contat mode, and as long as a cartridge is connected it will cause a full muscular lock up which is also reffered to as NMI.

While im here let me clear something else up about Taser deaths....

When a Taser is deployed its usually when someone is exhibiting certain behaviours, this can usually be traced back to certain drug uses. At this point the subject is usually experiencing a medical condition known as "excited delirium". Unfortunately what happens is this person would have died regardless. It's usually linked with the Taser as the Taser was used to stop the person.

Put it this way thousands of police recruits are trained yearly and are tasered. Not one death!!!

If you can find it, CBC came to Calgary and done a documentary on this with CPS and Taser international. It was called "Tasered". If you can find it, it will provide you with lots of answers to many misconceptions.

[phil98z24]

Alright... here are some training tidbits and a few factoids for you guys. I am not trying to be condescending here, just addressing some points that some would like to see addressed and adding in some additional information.

1) The progression from non-lethal to lethal force is sometimes slow, and sometimes very quick. We are tasked with evaluating a situation given a set of circumstances that are sometimes static, or incredibly dynamic, with a sometimes long period of time, and sometimes a split second. We are trained to make a decision based on the best information available at that given time, up to that given time, and formulate our grounds to proceed. The courts support this view, and as killramos stated about the unrealistic expectation of us as marksmen under pressure, there is no expectation that in those types of situations we can be expected to make what is the "Right" decision to many people with the luxury of hindsight, when we are faced with what we believe is a completely different situation from a first hand point of view.

2) Tasers are not substitutes for firearms. They never were, and never will be. They are used in different situations, sometimes erroneously, or sometimes erroneously and it ends up working (Tasering a person with a gun, for example.) They aren't reliable in many situations, but as they are fairly high on the use of force spectrum, sometimes the organic progression is to lethal force.

3) When faced with a violent individual and potential for increasing violence, we are expected to act immediately if the situation warrants it. It's possible in this situation they worked for a period of time to diffuse it but at the same time protect the public and themselves, but then it immediately turned into something far worse and necessitated a resolution with lethal force. This could be because the less lethal rounds amped him up, or because it just didn't work, but they were making a decision they felt based on the circumstances was the most appropriate and effective at the time.

4) If someone decides to raise their fists to me, I'm going to react with the amount of force necessary to ensure I'm not going to be assaulted, period. I definitely won't unholster my sidearm as that means I now have an inappropriate use of force option in my hand that could potentially end up in their hand and be used against me, but you better believe I will be considering using OC, Taser, or a fast and confident preemptive attack to stop them before they can get at me. I am going to do what I need to do with the tools that I know will reliably get me out of that situation, and sometimes that means going right for the Taser.

5) Killramos is exactly right in that we aren't expected to be fighting with people in hand to hand combat or deliberately put ourselves into extreme danger to use the least amount of force to subdue an individual. We are trained for those things, but it's difficult and people tend to end up hurt or dead. Not just police, but the public, and offenders. We need to use tools and methods that have a higher percentage chance of ending a fight before it starts, or end it as soon as it begins, while minimizing potential for injury to them or us. We have a duty of care and legal obligation to even the bad guys, and I think there is a high preference for 5 seconds of extreme debilitating pain over being put in the hospital after being beat to shit with fists or a baton.

6) Humans are incredibly resilient and the force required to stop a person who is jacked up on drugs, mental health issues, or alcohol, is staggering. Yes, a 2 x 4 doesn't seem that dangerous, but in the hands of someone under outside influence or is just plain motivated, it sure can be. And the force sometimes required to stop these individuals is extreme. Pain compliance can only get you so far, and then you have to resort to overcoming their nervous system with electricity, lead, or complete hydraulic loss caused by ballistic damage.

7) Firearms aren't just used in situations of potential death. It's both death and grievous bodily harm. A 2 x 4 to the head can be reasonably expected to potentially cause grievous bodily harm (or perhaps death.) In those situations, a firearm isn't used as a sniper tool to reach out and disarm a subject - it's a deadly weapon that causes incredible damage to the human body, whether to a leg, arm, torso, or head. We are trained to shoot to stop the threat because it's come down to a case of we must stop them NOW, and that means shooting and assessing quickly and as accurately as possible towards the biggest part of the body. We can't afford to miss at the point a firearm is being used. And if we do, say in the case of trying to disarm or wound, and it hits someone else and kills or injures them - that is simply unacceptable.

This is a weird situation that without all the facts, information from how that incident was being run, the information they had about that individual, the risk posed to the public, the ability to keep him contained, etc - we simply can't make an educated and fair assessment of how this was handled. On the face of it, it may seem like a person just got killed for swinging a piece of wood, but there is way more to it than that and we just don't know what that "way more" part is yet.

[Traffic_Cop]

Found it!! :-

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/m/episodes/tasered

[msommers]

Such a level-headed dude, Phil. Glad you're around here man.

[max_boost]

Next time a situation like this arises, send Beyonders into the fire and see how they respond since it's so easy to make the decision, to shoot or not, to taze or not etc. haha

[codetrap]

Originally posted by tomt64
the finest keyboard warrior alive, codetrap!

A wingchun staff is completely different from a 2x4 you bell end.

So I guess you should take back your lovely kind words if you arent willing to prove it. Right. You are a tool, and an ignoramus as well.

You want to meet up? Riiight. So we set up a date and time, and I show up with my 2x4 to meet a couple of police officers after you've filed a report saying I threatened you. Barring that happening, even if you consent to me swinging a 2x4 at you, I'm the one who will end up in jail. Worst case scenario, you show up with 10 of your buddies or a gun and I end up dead.

Sorry, I'm not that stupid. There's no way I'm going to meet up with you in this world, and certainly no way I'm going to swing anything at you. At least not unless you show up on my doorstep and threaten my family. In short, this isn't a high school locker room dick measuring contest so you can just go and play with the kiddies until you decide to grow up.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by tomt64


the finest keyboard warrior alive, codetrap!

A wingchun staff is completely different from a 2x4 you bell end.

So I guess you should take back your lovely kind words if you arent willing to prove it. :rolleyes:

[frizzlefry]

What would a British Bobby do in this situation? They don't carry firearms (northern Ireland being the exception I think)? Do they call in reinforcements for a guy with a 2x4? Just curious, not being a devil's advocate or anything. Dude threatened officers with a weapon, got shot. But just wondering if officers not having a firearm would have lead to a different resolution. If it would have then would shooting him be justified? Again, not taking stand on either viewpoint just curious.