Useless Furnace - Repairman Recommendation / Advice

[killramos]

Alright so i need the advice from the powers that be on my furnace. It was acting up all weekend through the cold and I am at a loss as to what the problem is...

SO basically wake up Saturday and look at thermostat, its 4 degrees colder than the set temp. Furnace is not running. I go downstairs flip the switch on the furnace back and forth and everything starts working fine house warms up nbd.

That evening, same problem. I start turning the gas fireplaces on to heat up the house. Reset furnace again etc. Turn off fireplaces when i go to bed. Sunday morning 6 degrees below set temp and furnace is still not on. No airflow and no heat form registers.

Last night i spend some time with it to figure out wtf is going on. Replaced the batteries in my thermostat just in case.

Will always turn on immediately when i switch the power on-off.

Runs great for maybe an hour or 2 (I didn't time how long it took to shit the bed).

When it is running the flame comes on for approximately 3 minutes 45 seconds then the flame goes out with a loud pop. Fans keep going. 1 and a half minutes later it lights back up and repeats, shutting down after 3:45 seconds. ts consistent. It will do with for about 15-20 minutes then shut down all together for about 5 minutes, then it all repeats. I don't know how many times it does this before it decides to not work any more.

Last winter i had a similar problem but much worse(house was dropping below 10 degrees C), idiot repairman from builder was convinced it was a dirty filter and i had to get him to come back 3 times to get him to even take the cover off the thing. He eventually replaced the pressure switch and the furnace ran merrily for the rest of the year.

Furnace is an Armstrong 93% gas forced air furnace...

I do not know where to locate the diagnostic LED's ( i took the cover off this morning and didn't see anything). I am concerned that it is locking itself down and maybe the short cycles / loud pops (flameout?) have something to do with it.

Help me beyond, you're my only hope...

TLDR

My furnace wont run through the night/day and my house is getting cold :banghead: . I need a contact for a reliable solid repairman or a miracle easy fix from a helpful beyonder.

[rx7_turbo2]

We need the LED diagnostic codes to be able to make any useful suggestions. Is there another panel you can remove? There should even be a sight glass somewhere that allows you to view the LED code.

Stab in the dark? Could be flame rollout switch or high limit switch. The flame rollout switch is usually a manual reset and since the furnace seems to be auto resetting it's probably not that. High limit is a strong possibility. Could be the switch itself they do go bad, or could be an underlying issue causing the high limit to trip. To rule either one out you could short the wires to each sensor one at a time. If the furnace runs with the wires shorted you at least know which sensor is the issue. Now if you don't have any experience here DO NOT do that, call a professional and if you do have some experience DO NOT leave it like that, it's a very temporary diagnostic technique that is all. A plugged filter will cause this issue as well, technician isn't totally out to lunch. Check that first I guess.

I just ran into a similar scenario. In fact almost identical. 5 year old Carrier high efficiency, started tripping those sensors. I finally narrowed it down to a plugged and cracked secondary heat exchanger. Solution? New furnace.

[killramos]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
We need the LED diagnostic codes to be able to make any useful suggestions. Is there another panel you can remove? There should even be a sight glass somewhere that allows you to view the LED code.

Stab in the dark? Could be flame rollout switch or high limit switch. The flame rollout switch is usually a manual reset and since the furnace seems to be auto resetting it's probably not that. High limit is a strong possibility. Could be the switch itself they do go bad, or could be an underlying issue causing the high limit to trip. To rule either one out you could short the wires to each sensor one at a time. If the furnace runs with the wires shorted you at least know which sensor is the issue. Now if you don't have any experience here DO NOT do that, call a professional and if you do have some experience DO NOT leave it like that, it's a very temporary diagnostic technique that is all. A plugged filter will cause this issue as well, technician isn't totally out to lunch. Check that first I guess.

I just ran into a similar scenario. In fact almost identical. 5 year old Carrier high efficiency, started tripping those sensors. I finally narrowed it down to a plugged and cracked secondary heat exchanger. Solution? New furnace.

Yea i was thinking something similar.

I am not going to service the furnace myself or anything like that. Like you said its not something I'm familiar with.

There is a second panel below, not sure if it comes off. that is where the LED code sticker is so good chance its behind that. I spent a whole minute checking behind panel 1 this morning. There is definitely no sight glass.

Furnace is 1.5 years old (2013 house build) if its broken...

The odd thing is it only does this when it is fucking cold which is why i think it could be a high limit as most of the time it doesn't really need to run that much. But that's how furnaces are...

I guess one of the pluses of a duplex is i can mooch heat to keep my pipes from freezing :D

[rx7_turbo2]

The LED will give you a place to start anyways. I don't really have any suggestions for repair/service companies, hopefully other Beyonders will chime in.

[killramos]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
The LED will give you a place to start anyways. I don't really have any suggestions for repair/service companies, hopefully other Beyonders will chime in.

Thanks yea I am sure we will get someone :thumbsup:

[YCB]

ATCO comes for free don't they?

[loweg]

Doug Morgan
Dkm heating
403-818-4234

Not always the cheapest, but a super honest guy which is whAt is hard to find .

Helped me out a number of Times.

Tell him Nate gave you the number

[killramos]

Originally posted by YCB
ATCO comes for free don't they?

There isnt a problem with my gas.

Not sure wtf atco would do...

[OU812]

Have you ensured your air intake is clear?

[killramos]

Originally posted by OU812
Have you ensured your air intake is clear?

Nope, but when the furnace turns on it blows hard so I didn't think that was an issue.

Where should my intake be?

I think i know where it is but how the fuck should i know since it sucks in air haha ( hard to feel) :nut:

[YCB]

Originally posted by killramos


There isnt a problem with my gas.

Not sure wtf atco would do...

we thought our furnace ignitor was broken.. called ATCO.. the guy came.. fixed her right up..

http://www.atcogas.com/Safety/Stay-Safe-Indoors/Appliance_Inspections

[killramos]

Originally posted by loweg
Doug Morgan
Dkm heating
403-818-4234

Not always the cheapest, but a super honest guy which is whAt is hard to find .

Helped me out a number of Times.

Tell him Nate gave you the number

Thanks hes on the list of dealers for my furnace which is a good start.

BTW what should i be expecting this nonsense to run me. Furnace should be 5 year warranty on parts according to website

20 year on heat exchanger apparently :dunno:

Edit actually it says lifetime heat exchanger on this one!

At least i shouldn't have the same problem as RX7...

[killramos]

Originally posted by YCB


we thought our furnace ignitor was broken.. called ATCO.. the guy came.. fixed her right up..

http://www.atcogas.com/Safety/Stay-Safe-Indoors/Appliance_Inspections

Wow that's good, it says right on that link that they don't repair anything though. They will just tell you if its working properly or not.

Which I know mine isnt...

[YCB]

Originally posted by killramos


Wow that's good, it says right on that link that they don't repair anything though. They will just tell you if its working properly or not.

Which I know mine isnt...

hmm true.. maybe mine was more simple of a fix and the guy just did it.. my bad for hogging your thread.

Fagnan's furnace is family company since 1990 something.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by killramos


Thanks hes on the list of dealers for my furnace which is a good start.

BTW what should i be expecting this nonsense to run me. Furnace should be 5 year warranty on parts according to website

20 year on heat exchanger apparently :dunno:

Edit actually it says lifetime heat exchanger on this one!

At least i shouldn't have the same problem as RX7...

On or off warranty, you've spent too much time and energy on this. Your way is just not solving the issues. Get in someone you really trust and let the pro do what he does best. I've been through this very situation twice now over the years, you just need to know when to step away. Both times it was a switch needing replacement, the tech also cleaned and adjusted the furnace which is to be done every few years any ways. A well working furnace is not an option for us in The Great White North.

[Ca_Silvia13]

Gas valve or switch - sounds identical to what my parents just went through on their 2 year old furnace. Parts were covered under warranty, labour was not.

[killramos]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess


On or off warranty, you've spent too much time and energy on this. Your way is just not solving the issues. Get in someone you really trust and let the pro do what he does best. I've been through this very situation twice now over the years, you just need to know when to step away. Both times it was a switch needing replacement, the tech also cleaned and adjusted the furnace which is to be done every few years any ways. A well working furnace is not an option for us in The Great White North.

It's true i just wanted to do my due diligence to make sure I'm not taking a financial hit for something stupid...

Will call for a repair this afternoon.

[A790]

Action Furnace / www.actionfurnace.ca :)

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Ca_Silvia13
Gas valve or switch - sounds identical to what my parents just went through on their 2 year old furnace. Parts were covered under warranty, labour was not.

That's the issue with the heat exchanger warranty. Mine had a lifetime warranty as well. Parts covered, labour is not. Have to dismantle the furnace to replace xchanger, then re-assemble. No thanks, labour is gonna be more than half the price of a new furnace, and I end up with a butchered unit I don't trust. New furnace gave me peace of mind.

In regards to venting, it's not just the intake you want to check. Check the exhaust as well, birds have been known to build nests in them, or snow or ice build up can block them off as well.

[Crazyjoker77]

Your getting flame lockout by the sounds of your symptoms but a LED code will tell you all you need to know. If that is the case a flame rod is the issue. (specifically the secondary flame rod in intermittent ignition system, or primary flame rod on a direct ignition)(primary is the one closest to the pilot assembly, secondary will be the one on the opposite end of the burner)

Its a safety feature built into the furnace and with the flame rod not working its not sensing that the burner is on(even though it is) and is shutting itself down so its not just dumping gas. It will attempt 3 tries before going into a hard lockout.(where you have to remove power from the board for ~5sec)

The main blower is irrelavant(other than it running) as its basically just controlled by its own thermo switch. (if the heat exchager is hot its gonna spin and if it doesnt blow the heat exchanger gets to hot and trips the high limit)

your symptons also sound like it could be the high limit but "generally" it will just short cycle continuosly and not actually "lock out".

As someone already said rollout switches are almost always manual reset and they wont try 3 times before locking out.

[digi355]

Did you try pulling the tubes off and blowing them out? I had the exact same problem. I fixed it by blowing out a pressure switch tube. I think I posted about it on here years ago if your check my post history.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Crazyjoker77
Your getting flame lockout by the sounds of your symptoms but a LED code will tell you all you need to know. If that is the case a flame rod is the issue. (specifically the secondary flame rod in intermittent ignition system, or primary flame rod on a direct ignition)(primary is the one closest to the pilot assembly, secondary will be the one on the opposite end of the burner)

Its a safety feature built into the furnace and with the flame rod not working its not sensing that the burner is on(even though it is) and is shutting itself down so its not just dumping gas. It will attempt 3 tries before going into a hard lockout.(where you have to remove power from the board for ~5sec)

The main blower is irrelavant(other than it running) as its basically just controlled by its own thermo switch. (if the heat exchager is hot its gonna spin and if it doesnt blow the heat exchanger gets to hot and trips the high limit)

your symptoms also sound like it could be the high limit but "generally" it will just short cycle continuously and not actually "lock out".

As someone already said rollout switches are almost always manual reset and they wont try 3 times before locking out.

Yea it seems like its locking out but more of a "soft lockout" (like maybe gives itself an hour or so before re attempting) as it comes back. just not for a significant period of time. I think the furnace is running a bit in the night but just not nearly as much as it should.

Anyhow i will get the repair guy in today and see how things go.

[benyl]

Originally posted by killramos


Furnace is 1.5 years old (2013 house build) if its broken...


I'd be calling the builder.

I had them coming and fix a bunch of shit (including balancing and getting rid of a harmonic noise from the furnace). No charge. Or maybe the builder got charged.

[killramos]

Originally posted by benyl


I'd be calling the builder.

I had them coming and fix a bunch of shit (including balancing and getting rid of a harmonic noise from the furnace). No charge. Or maybe the builder got charged.

July 2013 Build, I doubt I still have new home coverage for this. I had his guy come last december for this problem...

edit: Apparently heating systems are 2 years! Sounds like time to call my builder. Even if his guy is useless. :thumbsup:

[rage2]

Flame sensor.

tYwR9qL4lnk

I've had this same problem 3 times in 15 years, every single time it's the damn flame sensor. 10 mins to clean, or $2 to replace.

[Pacman]

Originally posted by rage2
Flame sensor.

I've had this same problem 3 times in 15 years, every single time it's the damn flame sensor. 10 mins to clean, or $2 to replace.

That's exactly what was causing my issues a few years ago. I cleaned it with some steel wool and it worked fine after that. About a year later, I started having the same problem, and another clean fixed it again.

This thread reminds me that I should clean it again. I bought a new rod last year and did noticed that the diameter was slightly thicker than the one I had been scrubbing down......so it might not be a bad idea to buy a 2nd one as a spare. It was less than $10 at a furnace supply store.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Pacman


That's exactly what was causing my issues a few years ago. I cleaned it with some steel wool and it worked fine after that. About a year later, I started having the same problem, and another clean fixed it again.

This thread reminds me that I should clean it again. I bought a new rod last year and did noticed that the diameter was slightly thicker than the one I had been scrubbing down......so it might not be a bad idea to buy a 2nd one as a spare. It was less than $10 at a furnace supply store.

Good to know, odd how this part breaks with such frequency but at least its cheap.

I will see what my builder has to say about it all now that i know i still have a modicum of warranty left haha...

[rage2]

Why don't you just follow the youtube video and clean that thing up? Even if they warranty it you'll be paying $50 in labour for someone to come out, even more if it's an emergency. It's an immediate fix that will most likely solve your problem.

[killramos]

Originally posted by rage2
Why don't you just follow the youtube video and clean that thing up? Even if they warranty it you'll be paying $50 in labour for someone to come out, even more if it's an emergency. It's an immediate fix that will most likely solve your problem.

With new home warranty labor is on the builder :dunno:

aka he sends his guy who works for him.

[killramos]

Just a clarification for future people who read this. New home warranty is only 2 years for heating problems if the permit date is AFTER Jan 1 2014. As i was just reminded by my builder :rofl:

Bascially the program is dynamic and you should always read your paperwork not the website.

But hes just such an upstanding guy that hes sending his dude to help anyhow since I "never bother him about anything" :thumbsup:

How much of assholes are most people lol :nut:

And thats coming from me, maybe he remembers Jordan is my realtor :whipped:

[killramos]

Well of course I get home early for repairman and house is sitting cosily at set temp and heat is blowing through the registers ffs. :banghead:

This is going to be a great conversation. Of course I get a repairman when the temp outside is -5 not -25.

Now there is a low liklihood of anything being permanently fixed. Great.

Brb applying toothpaste to my foot.

[ZenOps]

I'm having a few issues with my high efficiency as well.

Not to say it lightly, but the high-effs are much more sensitive to anything not being perfect.

And I think it may have nothing to do with the furnace at all, I could almost deduct that there are non-combustible pockets of gas in the natural gas line. Which I wouldn't ever suspect, given that its never happened to me in my lifetime in Calgary.

I believe that there was such a prolonged period of non-combustible, that it blew out my pilot (on hot water tank, not furnace)

Yellowish flame also trips the flame sensor if its even slightly dirty, which locks down the furnace. Biotch to track down sometimes.

Also, check for ice clogging the exhaust - a gentle tap with a small rubber mallet can sometimes be the cure :thumbsup:

[killramos]

Yea mine is having more issues as well. Gonna monitor it through the day. ( Go nest :D )

Basically when the repairman showed up he looked at it for 30 seconds saw it light when i told him it always blew out after 3 minutes) decided there was nothing he could do :facepalm: I should have known better than to let him come back after his stunts last time but free is free...

I then went and cleaned off the flame sensor as Rage suggested and that seemed to help the turning off early problem.

Now i noticed the house was getting cold again last night. I open the panel and realize that the glow plug isn't glowing intermittently. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. and the High Voltage source was buzzing WAY louder than usual. wtf.

Caused a lockout last night which i reset. fuck this furnace, next time I get a new place i am doing custom not some bottom bucket builder.

At least its a duplex and I can bum heat from the neighbor while i figure this out

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by rage2
Flame sensor.

tYwR9qL4lnk

I've had this same problem 3 times in 15 years, every single time it's the damn flame sensor. 10 mins to clean, or $2 to replace.

+1. Mine gets dirty every 2-3 years. A quick 1 minute cleaning and it's good to go again.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by loweg
Doug Morgan
Dkm heating
403-818-4234

Not always the cheapest, but a super honest guy which is whAt is hard to find .

Helped me out a number of Times.

Tell him Nate gave you the number

Just had Doug in this afternoon doing some work on my furnace. He replaced one thing causing intermittent issues and another about to cause bigger issues, on a never serviced, 17 year old furnace. He also fabricated a piece that was missing from the original furnace install. Very honest and explained the entire process in detail. Very decent and fair price I thought. He was on time and he'd be my go-to guy in the furnace and AC areas going forward.