CIA torture report shocks many...

[Toma]

Disgusting, brutal, illegal, and, in the end, useless.

Such a shining example of American superiority of morality and refinement.

Lol.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-torture-report-senate-investigators-says-interrogation-went-beyond-legal-limits-9913275.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-torture-report-senate-investigators-says-interrogation-went-beyond-legal-limits-9913275.html

[M.alex]

don't be a terrorist; don't get tortured.

Seems simple enough :dunno:

[vengie]

I'm ok with the CIA, or any other intelligence agency torturing to alleviate the threat of innocent civilian deaths. As M.Alex said, don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.

[heavyfuel]

Originally posted by M.alex
don't be a terrorist; don't get tortured.

Seems simple enough :dunno:



Originally posted by vengie
I'm ok with the CIA, or any other intelligence agency torturing to alleviate the threat of innocent civilian deaths. As M.Alex said, don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.


AMEN.

[FraserB]

I'm shocked that people are shocked about this report.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by M.alex
don't be a terrorist; don't get tortured.

Seems simple enough :dunno:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

[Toma]

Originally posted by vengie
I'm ok with the CIA, or any other intelligence agency torturing to alleviate the threat of innocent civilian deaths. As M.Alex said, don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.

Didn't happen. that was the lie, told to rationalize the barbarism.

Look at results.... charges? Convictions? released?

[codetrap]

In other news, who gives a fuck. All this BS that Toma posts about the US did this, and the US did that... was he as prolific during the cold war when the KGB did all that and worse? Or even as recently as Sochi with all the human rights abuses there as well? Or why aren't we seeing anything about all the other oppressive regimes around the world where human rights abuses take place every single day...

Oh, that's right, because Toma only has a hard on for the US & Canada and only wants to ass-fuck them....

Toma, you're a broken record now. Something to be thrown into the recycling bin and forgotten.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by FraserB
I'm shocked that people are shocked about this report.

This.

Wonder that's why Canada and UK close their embassy in Cairo?

[Toma]

Supporting american terrorism carries risks....

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Toma
Supporting american terrorism carries risks.... Supporting terrorism anywhere carries risks...

Hey, have you ever noticed that terrorist is spelled wrong in your avatar?

[Toma]

Endless without charge imprisonment, torture and rectal feeding? Shit. Sounds way more civilised than those extremists that behead people...

But you know... 'They hate us cause we are free'.

[clem24]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

Holy shit this guy won the (tax payer funded) lottery!!

[Feruk]

Originally posted by vengie
I'm ok with the CIA, or any other intelligence agency torturing to alleviate the threat of innocent civilian deaths. As M.Alex said, don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.
Actually, the article about this on BBC's website clearly says that not even in ONE case was torture able to produce information to prevent an imminent attack. Not one.

Geneva convention defines torture as a war crime. If this doesn't wind up in front of the ICC, then that organization will have no credibility. Every person that participated in either the decision to torture or the actual act should be put on trial; pending enough evidence to convict of course.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by M.alex
don't be a terrorist; don't get tortured.

Seems simple enough :dunno:

Originally posted by vengie
don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.
This kind of thinking is what enabled some of the world's greatest atrocities to be committed.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Sentry
This kind of thinking is what enabled some of the world's greatest atrocities to be committed.

Yep..that kind of thinking would do george dubya proud.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Become terrorist, assume the risk of being tortured for the sake of National Security.

Do not become terrorist, enjoy zero risk of being tortured by the Government.

Seems pretty simple to me, not one single person should be surprised about anything and I'm glad they did it.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by codetrap
In other news, who gives a fuck.

You should.

The world was dragged into a war on the grounds of America's moral superiority.

During the leadup to the Iraq war, the online world was flush with hordes of cheerleaders trumpeting American virtue as a solution to Saddam's evil.

Now, a decade or so later, it seems there's no one willing to admit they were wrong - Just cries of "We knew that", or "Who cares", as if the point is unimportant.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by clem24


Holy shit this guy won the (tax payer funded) lottery!!

We've paid the bill, while the officials that allowed this to happen keep their jobs.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Become terrorist, assume the risk of being tortured for the sake of National Security.

Do not become terrorist, enjoy zero risk of being tortured by the Government.

Seems pretty simple to me, not one single person should be surprised about anything and I'm glad they did it.

What's a terrorist?

For instance. If you are charged and convicted of murdering, someone.... You would in fact be a murderer and deserve your punishment.

The "terrorist" label is applied liberally, and they are imprisoned and punished, and analy tortured... But I missed the whole part of charges, evidence, convictions.....

Do you have some secret information I missed?

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by FraserB
I'm shocked that people are shocked about this report.

I think the only people who were truly shocked were the ones with a car battery attached to their nuts.

*rimshot*

[themack89]

FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, CAPITALISM. THAT IS HOW YOU SPELL AMERICA... THAT IS HOW YOU SPELL GREATNESS.

[ragu]

Originally posted by M.alex
don't be a terrorist; don't get tortured.

Seems simple enough :dunno:



Originally posted by vengie
I'm ok with the CIA, or any other intelligence agency torturing to alleviate the threat of innocent civilian deaths. As M.Alex said, don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.



Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Become terrorist, assume the risk of being tortured for the sake of National Security.

Do not become terrorist, enjoy zero risk of being tortured by the Government.

I believe that's not true:

"After both detainees had spent approximately 24 hours shackled in the standing sleep deprivation position, CIA Headquarters confirmed that the detainees were former CIA sources."

Additionally, "detainees often remained in custody for months after the CIA determined they should not have been detained"

That's 26 out of 119 (22%). That's the kind of percentage that votes and brings a new party in power in democratic world....

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11282617/CIA-torture-report-released-live.html

This is CIA in a non war-zone, not American soldiers running high on nationalism, adrenaline and hate so imagine the on-ground reality.


Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

Seems pretty simple to me, not one single person should be surprised about anything and I'm glad they did it.

Which part are you glad about?
- Torture not being effective and still continuing
- CIA lying to the public and policymakers
- Mismanagement of the program
- Far more brutal than originally thought

You do realize that this does not help us win sole rights to 'moral authority'...

[sr20s14zenki]

I wish to lighten the mood of this thread,

But, you gotta admit, where they are leading you before the end of the joke, has happened before. tortured under SUSPICION, and then found to be wrong all along

RqcL-y457Ds

[JRSC00LUDE]

Torture used to be fucking brutal, in almost every time period, and it wasn't localized to Americans. While some of this may be disturbing, is it any different than the last how many several hundreds/thousands of years? As committed by how many races? :dunno:

[Toma]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Torture used to be fucking brutal, in almost every time period, and it wasn't localized to Americans. While some of this may be disturbing, is it any different than the last how many several hundreds/thousands of years? As committed by how many races? :dunno:

Oh? We are neanderthals,? Caveman? Barbarians? Lol. This is the.middle ages?

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Torture used to be fucking brutal, in almost every time period, and it wasn't localized to Americans. While some of this may be disturbing, is it any different than the last how many several hundreds/thousands of years? As committed by how many races? :dunno:

Yeah but that doesn't justify anything. Look at the case of Maziar Bahari. What the Iranians did to him is in line with what the CIA did to people that never ended up being charged.

I do agree with interrogation and with weeding out suspects but, at the end of the day, western nations need to hold themselves to a higher standard. And most do. But a "Do as I say not as I do" method of behavior is not productive.

If you want to create radical western Islamists than show them that western civilization is just as bad as corrupt Islamic nations. Except no virgins at the end of road.

It just behooves us to act what we preach. We shouldn't be imprisoning foreign nationals in western facilities then denying the rights afforded to a western citizen.

Maybe some baddies slip through and some don't. But our integrity is intact. Our morals are intact. You give that shit up and it harms everyone.

We are better than the "enemy". We should act like it.

[sr20s14zenki]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Yeah but that doesn't justify anything. Look at the case of Maziar Bahari. What the Iranians did to him is in line with what the CIA did to people that never ended up being charged.

I do agree with interrogation and with weeding out suspects but, at the end of the day, western nations need to hold themselves to a higher standard. And most do. But a "Do as I say not as I do" method of behavior is not productive.

If you want to create radical western Islamists than show them that western civilization is just as bad as corrupt Islamic nations. Except no virgins at the end of road.

It just behooves us to act what we preach. We shouldn't be imprisoning foreign nationals in western facilities then denying the rights afforded to a western citizen.

Maybe some baddies slip through and some don't. But our integrity is intact. Our morals are intact. You give that shit up and it harms everyone.

We are better than the "enemy". We should act like it.

Well put.
:thumbsup:

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by frizzlefry

We are better than the "enemy". We should act like it.

Given the mounting evidence to the contrary, it's unclear how you could come to this decision.

It's only bad if others do it, I guess.


"10 Truly Terrible Things the CIA Did In Our Names, Because Freedom"

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/10-truly-terrible-things-the-cia-did-in-our-names-because-freedom-20141209#ixzz3LRcPbSF8

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Toma


Oh? We are neanderthals,? Caveman? Barbarians? Lol. This is the.middle ages?

And, your point? Are we the most enlightened age of man that has existed yet? Kind of like every age that went before us thought they were? This is behavior that has existed, arguably, through every age and likely race of man, is it not?

Show me a period of "civilized" mankind where this behavior didn't happen. Or one where they didn't believe they were the highest evolved moral authority. You're failing to make a strong argument with that reply.

I'm not arguing it's "right" , I'm arguing it's almost natural to occur in an organized society. American or not.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


Given the mounting evidence to the contrary, it's unclear how you could come to this decision.

It's only bad if others do it, I guess.


"10 Truly Terrible Things the CIA Did In Our Names, Because Freedom"

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/10-truly-terrible-things-the-cia-did-in-our-names-because-freedom-20141209#ixzz3LRcPbSF8

Confused. Sooo the CIA have done shit things so that doesn't make us as western nations better soooo we should just carry on? Fuck it all? Further down the rabbit hole?

The CIA have acted poorly. But no yank, or other western citizen, voted to specifically torture someone in a certain way. The CIA acted outside their publicly accepted box, so to speak. This is not a poor reflection on western civilization but rather an under the table abuse of power by the CIA and in no way reflects the will of the people in the USA. As flawed as they are they did not vote for this. Its as much news to them as it is to us.

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
The CIA have acted poorly. But no yank, or other western citizen, voted to specifically torture someone in a certain way. The CIA acted outside their publicly accepted box, so to speak. This is not a poor reflection on western civilization but rather an under the table abuse of power by the CIA and in no way reflects the will of the people in the USA. As flawed as they are they did not vote for this. Its as much news to them as it is to us.
By not punishing the behavior, you show support for it. If those responsible are not tried, then what's to discourage the next group from torturing people in the name of freedom? By not demanding that those who broke the law be brought to justice, every single yank votes for it and supports it to happen again.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Feruk

By not punishing the behavior, you show support for it. If those responsible are not tried, then what's to discourage the next group from torturing people in the name of freedom? By not demanding that those who broke the law be brought to justice, every single yank votes for it and supports it to happen again.

Completely agree. Punishment is a step in the direction of being better than thy enemy.

[z24_wheels]

Question for Toma and the other folks who are bothered by this - instead of sitting here casting stones at the CIA for their methods, have you got a better approach for gaining information from "people of interest"?

It's easy to be Holly Hindsight and the moral soapbox is pretty comfortable.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by z24_wheels
Question for Toma and the other folks who are bothered by this - instead of sitting here casting stones at the CIA for their methods, have you got a better approach for gaining information from "people of interest"?

It's easy to be Holly Hindsight and the moral soapbox is pretty comfortable.

Better approach is to do it properly. Solitary confinement can be very effective. But not for a month. You isolate someone for a month in a hole anything they say is going to be half garbage anyways once they are out.

I think the point behind the report is that many prisoners were unnecessarily interrogated. Do we need to stress suspected terrorists? Yes. But to the point where they risk becoming mentally incapacitated? No. Any information they had would be useless and the only thing the CIA is doing is torture for the sake of torture.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Better approach is to do it properly. Solitary confinement can be very effective. But not for a month. You isolate someone for a month in a hole anything they say is going to be half garbage anyways once they are out.

I think the point behind the report is that many prisoners were unnecessarily interrogated. Do we need to stress suspected terrorists? Yes. But to the point where they risk becoming mentally incapacitated? No. Any information they had would be useless and the only thing the CIA is doing is torture for the sake of torture.

I can appreciate where you're coming from and agree that the tactics used were quite likely "offside" but in your example where you've put someone in solitary, waited a week and they're still not talking...then what?

I have to think if you're dealing with fanatics or people trained to resist interrogation that simple solitary confinement won't always be effective (or get results fast enough to be useful)

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs


I can appreciate where you're coming from and agree that the tactics used were quite likely "offside" but in your example where you've put someone in solitary, waited a week and they're still not talking...then what?

I have to think if you're dealing with fanatics or people trained to resist interrogation that simple solitary confinement won't always be effective (or get results fast enough to be useful)

I would say that there comes a point where a person simply won't talk and that has to, at some point, be accepted. In western culture that usually means the person is appointed a lawyer and the decision is made whether to detain them or not. Same type of rights afforded to timothy mcveigh.

We put prisoners into solitary all the time. The yanks especially. But in those cases it is a form of punishment and the prisoner has been convicted by a court already. The point is not to elicit information from them. The point is punishment. Putting a person not convicted of anything into the same punishment style solitary is wrong. Not only will you not gain any reliable information after breaking them mentally, you have also applied a western punishment to a person not convicted of anything.

I know its a tough situation, trying to get information from a devout Islamic terrorist. Information that could save lives. But there is a cost to going to far and chances are nothing useful will be obtained from it.

[Toma]

Cealry, many dum dums here can't read.

The torture was INEFFECTUAL.

INNOCENT PEOPLE were tortured.

[Toma]

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/12/09/senate-cia-torture-report-details-ruthless-brutality-bush-era


Senate Intelligence Committee's report says CIA abuse violated 'U.S. law, treaty obligations, and our values.' Journalists, experts and human rights advocates say that torture program under the Bush administration was systematically orchestrated by top officials.

What the report shows, according to its introduction, is that the abuse performed by the CIA and documented by the investigation was found to be in direct "violation of U.S. law, treaty obligations, and our values."

According to Feinstein, the four key findings of the report include:

1. The CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” were not effective.
2. The CIA provided extensive inaccurate information about the operation of the program and its effectiveness to policymakers and the public.
3. The CIA’s management of the program was inadequate and deeply flawed.
4. The CIA program was far more brutal than the CIA represented to policymakers and the American public.

[7thgenvic]

In other news.....

ISIS keeps chopping the heads off their neighbors.... HUMM

Terrorists....

[Feruk]

Originally posted by z24_wheels
Question for Toma and the other folks who are bothered by this - instead of sitting here casting stones at the CIA for their methods, have you got a better approach for gaining information from "people of interest"?
You brutally misunderstand the point. It's not about the effectiveness of this method vs another (although it seems just about everything else would have yielded better data), it's about breaking the law. None of these people were convicted or charged with any crime (at the time) and there was no oversight. This was also done to US citizens, so it's not just "captured foreign fighters". It sets the precedent that they can drag you from your home, deny you a lawyer, hold you indefinitely, and torture you, on little to no evidence (certainly not enough to ever charge you). Is that really what you're supporting?

[Toma]

Calls to Prosecute!
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30407950


UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights and Counter-Terrorism Ben Emmerson said that senior officials from the administration of George W Bush who planned and sanctioned crimes must be prosecuted, as well as CIA and US government officials responsible for torture such as waterboarding.

"As a matter of international law, the US is legally obliged to bring those responsible to justice," Mr Emmerson said in a statement made from Geneva.

"The US attorney general is under a legal duty to bring criminal charges against those responsible."

[Toma]

http://youtu.be/5ZSoHy2x3NA

5ZSoHy2x3NA

[codetrap]

Hey Toma, what country do you live in?

[btimbit]

Really? People are shocked by something that's been happening since... always?

Not saying it's okay but don't pretend to be surprised just so you can feel morally superior. Your Schick is getting real old bud.

[Toma]

Originally posted by btimbit
Really? People are shocked by something that's been happening since... always?

Not saying it's okay but don't pretend to be surprised just so you can feel morally superior. Your Schick is getting real old bud.

Who said I was surprised?

Again a genius that can't read lol.

I've always said the US is the biggest terrorist organisation on the planet. After their military used underage girls as sex slaves, and wore the body parts of their enemies as jewelry in Vietnam etc, there wasnt much hope they could ever become civilised. The thread is for those that still were justifying US foreign aggression for moral reasons.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by btimbit
Really? People are shocked by something that's been happening since... always?


If we so casually accept this double standard, then it's time to let go of the myth that we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

[themack89]

http://i.imgur.com/9haIsbT.png

Yup

[Toma]

All the excuse makers are typical right wing thinkers. Revel in the hypocrisy when it fits their agenda, but look for any excuse to try and unleash their savagery.

No better than Islamic fundamentalists. Probably worse as they aren't direct about it... More sneaky and slimy about their secret dark desires.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by Feruk
None of these people were convicted or charged with any crime (at the time) and there was no oversight. This was also done to US citizens, so it's not just "captured foreign fighters". It sets the precedent that they can drag you from your home, deny you a lawyer, hold you indefinitely, and torture you, on little to no evidence (certainly not enough to ever charge you). Is that really what you're supporting?
"First they came for the socialists, but I did not speak out, because I was not a socialist."

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by Toma
All the excuse makers are typical right wing thinkers. Revel in the hypocrisy when it fits their agenda, but look for any excuse to try and unleash their savagery.

No better than Islamic fundamentalists. Probably worse as they aren't direct about it... More sneaky and slimy about their secret dark desires.

I'm a total left winger, but to be honest I'd MUCH rather have the US torture a few terrorists vs. having the terrorists take over and jail/torture/execute anyone that disagreed with them.

The world will never be perfect, but I really do believe the US helps realize freedom, equality, and free speech around the world. I think anyone who criticizes the US should go spend some time outside of North America and see what the rest of the world is really like.

[Feruk]

First of all, nobody's surprised. Just want to see justice done.


Originally posted by FixedGear
I'm a total left winger, but to be honest I'd MUCH rather have the US torture a few terrorists vs. having the terrorists take over and jail/torture/execute anyone that disagreed with them.

The world will never be perfect, but I really do believe the US helps realize freedom, equality, and free speech around the world. I think anyone who criticizes the US should go spend some time outside of North America and see what the rest of the world is really like.
Actually, a lot of those tortured were suspected terrorists. Aka people that nobody could even prove with any degree of certainty were a real threat.

Your justification that the rest of the world is worse because they don't torture people is absurd. Canada doesn't torture people, most of Europe doesn't torture people. I would argue that freedom, equality, and freedom of speech is on par in Canada and lots of European countries to that seen in the USA (if not better in some countries). If you want to compare the USA, comparing it to the dirty slums of Africa or the Middle East is not who I'd be comparing to.

[Toma]

This is a must read for anyone without psychology or social science training....

I'd suggest you start with his first book, but not sure some of you have the intelligence or attention span. This second one is also available as a audio book.

http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1355998861l/16101143.jpg

Also, as feruk says above.... Canada is far more 'advanced' socially than some of the middle US Hicksvilles.

There are 7 states where you STILL can't run for public office if you are an atheist lol, even though separation of church and state is one of the foundations of their country lol.

If you've never visited the inbred redneck states,.... Lol.... Well. You are missing out haha.

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by Toma
Canada is far more 'advanced' socially than some of the middle US Hicksvilles.

but canada wouldn't exist without the US.


Originally posted by Toma
Canada is far more 'advanced' socially than some of the middle US Hicksvilles.

There are 7 states where you STILL can't run for public office if you are an atheist lol, even though separation of church and state is one of the foundations of their country lol.

If you've never visited the inbred redneck states,.... Lol.... Well. You are missing out haha.

ironic to see you with your superior morals talk so negatively about people on which your whole existence depends.

[FixedGear]

it's not their fault they're "hicks" and "inbred rednecks", just like it's not terrorists' faults they're terrorists, or it's your fault that you spend your entire existence spewing BS on beyond and contributing absolutely NOTHING to the world. double standards much? :dunno:

[Toma]

Originally posted by FixedGear


but canada wouldn't exist without the US.



ironic to see you with your superior morals talk so negatively about people on which your whole existence depends.

Complete bullshit. I'd even argue its the other way around. Where would the US be if not for Frances assistance during their revolutionary war, and then having us as a peaceful neihbor for 100+ years. Lol.

Maybe you forget, we have the British to 'thank' for being here. Not the Murikans.

I love American morons that say shit like "better be thankful, you'd be speaking German/Russian/takeyourpick if it wasn't for us." Lmao.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by FixedGear


but canada wouldn't exist without the US.



At least that's what the American militarists say.

I'm not so sure it's true.

Two great big oceans on either side have probably done more to keep us safe - And have asked for less in return.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by FixedGear


but canada wouldn't exist without the US.



ironic to see you with your superior morals talk so negatively about people on which your whole existence depends.

your nonlinear is showing.

[FixedGear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada-United_States_trade_relations

[FixedGear]

"The United States has historically been Canada’s only foreign market for natural gas, oil, and hydropower. In 2010, almost 100% of Canada’s exports in these commodity classes were destined for the United States."

all you fools that spend 95% of your day on beyond yet drive hummers with 4:1 toilets:people have exactly who to thank?

[Toma]

Originally posted by FixedGear
"The United States has historically been Canada’s only foreign market for natural gas, oil, and hydropower. In 2010, almost 100% of Canada’s exports in these commodity classes were destined for the United States."

all you fools that spend 95% of your day on beyond yet drive hummers with 4:1 toilets:people have exactly who to thank?

Ah, so your argument is actually Canada would exist, just things would be different.

No shit. Lol

Duh.

[googe]

Originally posted by M.alex
don't be a terrorist; don't get tortured.

Seems simple enough :dunno:



Originally posted by vengie
I'm ok with the CIA, or any other intelligence agency torturing to alleviate the threat of innocent civilian deaths. As M.Alex said, don't be a terrorist/ associate and you won't be bothered.



Originally posted by heavyfuel


AMEN.



Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Become terrorist, assume the risk of being tortured for the sake of National Security.

Do not become terrorist, enjoy zero risk of being tortured by the Government.

Seems pretty simple to me, not one single person should be surprised about anything and I'm glad they did it.



Originally posted by z24_wheels
Question for Toma and the other folks who are bothered by this - instead of sitting here casting stones at the CIA for their methods, have you got a better approach for gaining information from "people of interest"?

It's easy to be Holly Hindsight and the moral soapbox is pretty comfortable.

You might want to actually read about what you're talking about, because the only thing "simple" is you when you make statements like these. :nut:

The report found:

1. At least 20% of the subjects were cases of mistaken identity and not terrorists at all. Random people off the street, because of a dumb reward program that involved the americans offering cash to anybody who reported on a "terrorist", and surprise, random people who wanted money just fingered someone and they were disappeared and tortured, no questions asked.

2. The torture program produced no new information. In fact, the guy who led them to Osama's courier spilled the beans voluntarily, without being tortured, and after he did, then they tortured him just in case he had more info. WTF?

3. The torture program produced false leads. Surprise, they don't want to get tortured, they have no info, so they make shit up, because they know they're getting raped anyway.

Of course, this is totally ignoring the fact that under any circumstances, only a depraved piece of shit can advocate a torture program.

As a side note, it's funny how a couple of people reply to every Toma thread as if he has anything to do with the subject in question. Torture is fine because you don't like Toma and he just hates America, riiiight....





"Five hundred years of history teach us that torture produces false confessions," said Brigadier General David Irvine who taught prisoner-of-war interrogation and military law for 18 years at the 6th US Army Intelligence School. "Enhanced interrogation," like the Bay of Pigs, was a CIA promise of a silver bullet. What it all accomplished is very clear: Far from making America safer, this misuse of power has made Americans, especially those in the armed services and who travel where fanatics can reach them, less safe than ever."

That point was echoed by US Senator John McCain, who was subjected to torture after being captured during the Vietnam War.

"I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence," McCain said.

"I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it.

"I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering."


When even guys like this are disgusted by your behavior, it's pretty safe to say that you could do no worse.

[01RedDX]

.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by Toma
No better than Islamic fundamentalists. Probably worse as they aren't direct about it... More sneaky and slimy about their secret dark desires.

Did Arash hack Toma's account? Or are they actually the same person? :nut:

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by googe


The report found:

1. At least 20% of the subjects were cases of mistaken identity and not terrorists at all. Random people off the street, because of a dumb reward program that involved the americans offering cash to anybody who reported on a "terrorist", and surprise, random people who wanted money just fingered someone and they were disappeared and tortured, no questions asked.

2. The torture program produced no new information. In fact, the guy who led them to Osama's courier spilled the beans voluntarily, without being tortured, and after he did, then they tortured him just in case he had more info. WTF?

3. The torture program produced false leads. Surprise, they don't want to get tortured, they have no info, so they make shit up, because they know they're getting raped anyway.

Of course, this is totally ignoring the fact that under any circumstances, only a depraved piece of shit can advocate a torture program.




Great post Googe. Thank you.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by googe
The report found:

1. At least 20% of the subjects were cases of mistaken identity and not terrorists at all.

2. The torture program produced no new information.

3. The torture program produced false leads.

That's because they didn't employ JACK BAUER. He always gets results. :poosie:

[Mista Bob]

When has torture ever worked in history? Should be pretty obvious that torture will only result in people making shit up to tell you whatever you want to hear just to try and get it to stop.

How anyone could possibly support it in any way is beyond me. Especially when there is such a large amount of evidence in this case that shows not only how pointless it was, but also how it has harmed many innocent people. Even completely ignoring the moral issue, everything points towards there being no reason to ever use torture.

It didn't work before in human history, why would it all of a sudden start working now?

[clem24]

Originally posted by Mista Bob
When has torture ever worked in history? Should be pretty obvious that torture will only result in people making shit up to tell you whatever you want to hear just to try and get it to stop.

You're probably thinking torture to get a confession to a crime. This is torture to obtain intelligence which is slightly different.

[Mista Bob]

Whatever the specific information wanted is, it makes no difference. End result is the same, someone will say whatever it is you want.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by clem24


You're probably thinking torture to get a confession to a crime. This is torture to obtain intelligence which is slightly different.

And, as the report demonstrates, still useless.

The criminality and inefficacy is the same, regardless of the external scenario.

[ragu]

Originally posted by clem24


You're probably thinking torture to get a confession to a crime. This is torture to obtain intelligence which is slightly different.

Yet it failed with intelligence as well...

It did help with confession which becomes highly questionable because once you go through rectal feeding, week of sleep deprivation, and other "enhanced interrogation techniques", there's nothing you won't admit to. We actually have a Canadian who is likely an example of this in shape of Omar Khadr?

[googe]

Originally posted by clem24


You're probably thinking torture to get a confession to a crime. This is torture to obtain intelligence which is slightly different.

Nope, we already debunked this. That's the whole point of this report.

[clem24]

Originally posted by googe


Nope, we already debunked this. That's the whole point of this report.

Here's the thing though.. I might be wrong on this but it seems the CIA's problem is that in most cases, they got the wrong/innocent guy or guy that simply doesn't have the right information, in which case, torture won't get anything out of them.

Now, if they had the RIGHT guy, torture might get the info they want. Not seeing much reported on where torture DID work..

From what I can gather from the news reports, that's the issue at hand from what I can gather.

Anyways just saying - not saying it's right.

[Gman.45]

If you study recent history, regarding the effectiveness of various interrogation techniques, you'll find some interesting things that correspond well with what Googe/MistaBob/etc are saying.

The Germans, who have this huge/terrible reputation of being very brutal and effective with their torture and interrogation programs of WW2, often couldn't even break women French resistance fighters, who died instead of talking while under incredibly painful interrogation techniques.

Yet, the one German who got by far, by FAR the most accurate, rapid, and actionable intel during the war, did nothing other than treat his subjects with respect, speak with them, offer them little things here and there, yet still applying pressure when needed. His name was Hans Scharff. He was so good that many of the US prisoners that were subject to his interrogations sponsored him to come over to the USA shortly after the war, and he did.

IMO the fact is, that using pain as an interrogation method, only has the little chance of success that it does when used in situations where rapid actionable intel is required. Over time, ie long term, the odds of getting anything of value from subjects plummets. This has also been proven historically (US Pilots held prisoner in the Hanoi Hilton, WW2 on all sides, recent lessons learned from recent CIA reports, and so on) - it's always the same story.

Good points brought up here - Like Hans Scharff taught in various books and papers written from his techniques, as well as others, is that your odds of getting a breakthrough are much higher with the carrot than the stick. It's just the mathematics of the human condition and psyche. Is there a time where torture COULD or MAY get you information that is helpful? Sure. But the odds or stacked incredibly against it, especially with long term subjects.

Also, we're supposed to be "the good guys", right? We should act like it, especially since the "stick" way didn't really get us much actionable intel. That's what it comes down to for me. Had the reports shown that we got x, y, and z, and stopped plots 1, 2, and 3 from information that was only, finally, gotten out of subjects after rigorous physical torture, perhaps I would feel differently. The facts seem to be right now that most of the really good intel, stuff that led to capture/kill missions that were successful, and info that led to breaking up various plots and plans, were by and large NOT from any torture/rendition type programs. That being the case, why do it?

I'm not saying I'm in favor of being touchy feely nice guys with terrorists either - I'd be fine with them meeting the firing squad if they are properly and fairly tried in a military court, and so on. Torture is another matter to me.

[Sentry]

Meanwhile, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum...

http://i.imgur.com/cGEUQmo.png

[rx7_turbo2]

^Words hurt:rofl: