Another illegal u-turn thread

[Seth1968]

I was going to add this to the other active u-turn thread, but decided not to, as it's a very different scenario.

I missed my turn, went about a block further and pulled a u-turn. A cop at the intersection pulled me over and gave me the ticket for an illegal u-turn. I didn't see him as it was night and foggy. Thing is, the U-turn was on a country road in the County of Lethbridge (Township Road 92).

I misplaced the original ticket, but the courthouse clerk wrote out some info. It's a violation of "Rules of the Road" Sec 30(B)(ROR). I can't find that section, nor do I know exactly what rule I broke. The closest I could find is:



Division 7

U-Turns

Interpretation

28 The turns referred to in this Division include what are
commonly known as “U-turns”.

Must be done in safety

29(1) A person driving a vehicle shall not turn the vehicle so as to
proceed in the opposite direction unless that movement can be
made in safety and without interfering with other traffic.



I most certainly didn't interfere with any traffic, heck, other than a few vehicles the stop sign intersection a block away, there were no other cars on the road.

Now I did read somewhere that others cars have to be able to see you within 150 Metres, so perhaps the fog is what the cop is going on? If so, he wouldn't have been able to see me pull the u-turn.

Court date is Jan 15, and I have to show up at 8:30 that day to appeal to the Crown.

Anything else I should know, or perhaps I'm missing something?

[ercchry]

30 A person driving a vehicle shall not, at the following locations,
turn the vehicle so as to travel in the opposite direction:
(a) in the case of an urban area,
(i) on a roadway between intersections,
(ii) at an alley intersection, or
(iii) at an intersection where one or more of the highways
is an access to a public or private facility to which
the public normally has access;
(b) in the case of an urban area or a non-urban area,
(i) at a place where a sign prohibits making a U-turn, or
(ii) at an intersection controlled by a traffic control
signal unless specifically permitted by a traffic
control device

[Seth1968]

Thanks ercchry, but I didn't do any of that.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Thanks ercchry, but I didn't do any of that.

well i guess first thing you have to prove is that you were not in an urban area, then that there was no stop sign or set of lights... but sounds win-able since township rd 92 is not within the bounds of lethbridge, but not sure if coalhurst counts are urban or not

[Stealth22]

Where exactly did you make that u-turn? Without seeing the actual ticket, its hard to say, but it sounds like it could be win-able.

[Seth1968]

It's definitely not urban. It's just beyond the NE edge of Lethbridge, and is indeed the County of Lethbridge. It's all farmland where I made the u-turn, with the only visible houses being the occasional farm house.

What were you referring to when you mentioned the stop sign?

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Seth1968

What were you referring to when you mentioned the stop sign?

it counts as a traffic control device, so no u-turns allowed

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Stealth22
Where exactly did you make that u-turn? Without seeing the actual ticket, its hard to say, but it sounds like it could be win-able.

I asked the clerk for the stated location, but all she said was that it just shows "Lethbridge".

The u-turn was made one block East of 26 AV N and 43rd St.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Lethbridge,+AB/@49.7169063,-112.7977429,14z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x536e864af15acd23:0x1c5c78e36295beae

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by ercchry
it counts as a traffic control device, so no u-turns allowed Are you sure? That's what I thought too, until I read the law you posted.

(ii) at an intersection controlled by a traffic control
signal unless specifically permitted by a traffic control device

I think it's saying that you can't make a U-turn at an intersection with a traffic light, unless there's another device (i.e. sign) that permits you to do so. You can correct me if I am wrong.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by ercchry


it counts as a traffic control device

I'm not sure that's correct, but regardless, i didn't make the u-turn at an intersection.

I was travelling east on 26 Av, and missed my 43rd St turn.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Stealth22
Are you sure? That's what I thought too, until I read the law you posted.

(ii) at an intersection controlled by a traffic control
signal unless specifically permitted by a traffic control device

I think it's saying that you can't make a U-turn at an intersection with a traffic light, unless there's another device (i.e. sign) that permits you to do so. You can correct me if I am wrong.

yeah cant find it in the doc, but this was my understanding from years ago when i fought a u-turn ticket and what the JP said

but no intersection, not in a urban area and under section 30... i dont see the offense in this case, should be an easy win

[xnvy]

Originally posted by ercchry


it counts as a traffic control device, so no u-turns allowed Traffic Cop said in the other thread that you can make u-turns at 4-way stop signs.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by xnvy
Traffic Cop said in the other thread that you can make u-turns at 4-way stop signs.

pretty sure in at least an urban setting this bit would make that false

"(iii) at an intersection where one or more of the highways
is an access to a public or private facility to which the public normally has access;"

[phreezee]

Saw a story on GlobalNews and the cirteria for a U-Turn in Calgary as I remember was:

1) Uncontrolled intersection (no lights, stop signs)
2) Must be divided by physical median
3) Must not have a no U-Turn Sign

[ercchry]

Originally posted by phreezee
Saw a story on GlobalNews and the cirteria for a U-Turn in Calgary as I remember was:

1) Uncontrolled intersection (no lights, stop signs)
2) Must be divided by physical median
3) Must not have a no U-Turn Sign

this was basically what i was told by the JP

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I'm not sure that's correct, but regardless, i didn't make the u-turn at an intersection.

I was travelling east on 26 Av, and missed my 43rd St turn.
So you turned at this little turn-out thing?

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.7272148,-112.7766087,3a,75y,134.5h,74.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sewW4UqsCXdPMWsw36b9DJw!2e0

He can't get you on being in an urban area...you were just outside the Lethbridge city limits. (If you look at Street View, there's a City Limit sign at 43rd St)

Regardless, he didn't turn at a stop sign or traffic light. Looks like a win to me.

[FraserB]

But if it was at that little turn out, wouldn't this apply then?

"(iii) at an intersection where one or more of the highways
is an access to a public or private facility to which the public normally has access;"

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Stealth22

So you turned at this little turn-out thing?



I don't recall seeing that. I just made a typical u-turn 1 block East of 43 ST on Township Rd 92. I then went South on 43, and that's when he pulled me over.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by FraserB
But if it was at that little turn out, wouldn't this apply then?

"(iii) at an intersection where one or more of the highways
is an access to a public or private facility to which the public normally has access;"

only if it was within the bounds of lethbridge, but he was a block out

[Seth1968]

So the ticket is under section 30(B)...

30 A person driving a vehicle shall not, at the following locations,
turn the vehicle so as to travel in the opposite direction:
(b) in the case of an urban area or a non-urban area,
(i) at a place where a sign prohibits making a U-turn, or

(ii) at an intersection controlled by a traffic control
signal unless specifically permitted by a traffic
control device.


Definitely seems like an easy win. One more question:

1) If the Crown still tells me to appear in court, and I win, why isn't the cop responsible to pay me my lost wages?

[ercchry]

the crown expects people to show up for jury duty for $50 a day... so good luck on that one :rofl:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by ercchry
the crown expects people to show up for jury duty for $50 a day... so good luck on that one :rofl:

It seems to me i was wrongfully charged, and will lose wages because of such. So why wouldn't I be entitled to compensation?

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by Seth1968
It seems to me i was wrongfully charged, and will lose wages because of such. So why wouldn't I be entitled to compensation?
Well, I guess either you plead guilty and keep your wages, or forfeit your wages to fight the charge in court. Or, pay a lawyer to do it for you.

I got a summons to appear for jury duty last year. I was excused from it, but I was curious about my wages, as it was scheduled for a weekday.

I remember reading about it and seeing that while your employer can give you paid time off for court, they are not obligated to do so.

You lose, no matter what. :rofl:

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Stealth22
I remember reading about it and seeing that while your employer can give you paid time off for court, they are not obligated to do so.

My company offers this. They pay your regular salary, but you then cut them a cheque for $50 x the amount of weekdays you were gone.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by ercchry


pretty sure in at least an urban setting this bit would make that false

"(iii) at an intersection where one or more of the highways
is an access to a public or private facility to which the public normally has access;"

Keep in mind how broad the definition of "highway" is. I took that passage to mean one of the intersection exits only exists as a driveway for a facility, since a driveway or parking lot counts as "highway".

The Global News segment mentioned earlier is here and specifically mentions U-turns at stop signs are allowed in the text:
http://globalnews.ca/news/974813/road-rules-are-u-turns-allowed/

Alberta Transportation's site also mentions traffic lights mean no U-turn and the "access highway" refers to parking lots.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2000.htm

[ercchry]

i dunno why they cant make this shit more simple :nut:

[Traffic_Cop]

Originally posted by ercchry


this was basically what i was told by the JP

That is absolutely incorrect.

A stop sign is a traffic control device not a signal. You can u turn at an intersection controlled by the stop sign. It must be done at the intersection, no in between.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop


That is absolutely incorrect.

A stop sign is a traffic control device not a signal. You can u turn at an intersection controlled by the stop sign. It must be done at the intersection, no in between.

and this holds true for rural and urban?

[Seth1968]

So Traffic Cop, any idea why I got the ticket?

The cop was nice enough and so was I.

[Traffic_Cop]

Well the only issue is, in a rural setting you have to be visible for 150 meters, and the turn has to be done in safety.

If im reading your story correctley...you left the city limits, through the last stop sign and went east. You then went about a block on the rural road, then u turned?. So long as there wernt any private roadways or entrances then what you did was perfectly legal.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Well the only issue is, in a rural setting you have to be visible for 150 meters, and the turn has to be done in safety.

If im reading your story correctley...you left the city limits, through the last stop sign and went east. You then went about a block on the rural road, then u turned?.

That's right.

It was the 150 meter visibility that I was concerned about. Especially since it was very foggy. But that's irrelevant as well, as the officer saw me from a block away.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Seth1968


That's right.

It was the 150 meter visibility that I was concerned about. Especially since it was very foggy. But that's irrelevant as well, as the officer saw me from a block away.

but the charge was 30B, so that turnout may have counted as a private entrance

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by ercchry


but the charge was 30B, so that turnout may have counted as a private entrance

Aha, but the public entrance rule is under 30(a), not 30(b). ;) The public entrance rule is only applicable in urban areas.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


Aha, but the public entrance rule is under 30(a), not 30(b). ;) The public entrance rule is only applicable in urban areas.

true, but also was going off what traffic cop said, u-turns are one of the most confusing laws, its crazy :nut:

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Yeah this really does seem to be more complicated than it needs to be, but there was probably some sort of scenario that led to the rules we have now.

[Seth1968]

UPDATE.

The court date is tomorrow, and I planned on talking to the Crown, but with further thought, I think I might just pay it.

You see, I didn't technically break any u-turn traffic laws, but it was dark and very foggy. Given the conditions, I would consider my u-turn unsafe if there was an oncoming vehicle that didn't have the headlights on.

BTW- The only thing the officer said about the u-turn was, "That's not a safe place to make a u-turn". Now i couldn't think of a more safe place to make a u-turn, but I didn't question him. Also, he never mentioned anything about the conditions.

Comments on that?

[btimbit]

How much is the ticket? Does it carry demerits?

[Seth1968]

On 10th thought, the argument of a vehicle without headlights doesn't hold water. Reason being, that would mean every country road left turn on a foggy night would be deemed illegal. I should have just kept turning right to get home:)

I get the feeling the Crown will be confused as I about the ticket, and as such, suggest I plead my case to the judge. Problem is, I'll miss my business calls to which each is worth $140.00 to $180.00.

The ticket is $115.00, and I believe 2 demerit points. It's also my understanding that 2 demerit points is the minimum and can't be negotiated. I've been driving for 30 years without any demerits, so I doubt that will affect my insurance.

[Seth1968]

The crown tossed the ticket.

Thanks to all for the input:thumbsup:

[speedog]

Originally posted by Seth1968
The crown tossed the ticket.

Thanks to all for the input:thumbsup:
So what was learned then, will you do things differently next time if in a similar situation?

U-turns to me are just another way to unnecessarily attract the attention of a police officer and often, there is always a way to get going in the opposite direction one came from with having to resort to a u-turn.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by speedog

So what was learned then, will you do things differently next time if in a similar situation?

U-turns to me are just another way to unnecessarily attract the attention of a police officer and often, there is always a way to get going in the opposite direction one came from with having to resort to a u-turn.

I learned a lot indeed, and am now glad I got the ticket.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I learned a lot indeed, and am now glad I got the ticket.
^ Wow, how not to directly answer a question.

So again, what did you learn and will you do things differently in the future if in a similar situation? Please note that I am just curious if anything you learned would be of use to other drivers?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by speedog

^ Wow, how not to directly answer a question.

So again, what did you learn and will you do things differently in the future if in a similar situation? Please note that I am just curious if anything you learned would be of use to other drivers?

I empirically learned that any u-turn should not be legal. Period.

Yet, you seem to be suggesting something else.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I empirically learned that any u-turn should not be legal. Period.

Yet, you seem to be suggesting something else.
I wasn't suggesting anything, I was just curious as to what others could learn from what you learned - simple enough and no underlying agenda from myself.