Fiesta BANNED from AutoX

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Redlined_8000]

Oh wow.

So what makes a Fiesta ST safe and a regular Fiesta not?

Kinda happy I got my civic si now haha.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Unknown303]

Jesus they banned the CJ!

[Redlined_8000]

I would imagine the choice in tire would also affect how tippy it is. I wonder if the Fiesta ST suspension can handle a set of R888s or slicks.

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Unknown303]

A lowered CJ would be an epic autox vehicle.

[xnvy]

NOOOOOOOOO MONICAAAAAAAA

Oh well. That's why I kept the Miata. Anyways the SCCA can go run naked backwards through a field of dicks. Base Fiesta is best Fiesta.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Murray Peterson]

Originally posted by Redlined_8000
So what makes a Fiesta ST safe and a regular Fiesta not?


The SCCA rollover risk is strictly based on track width and center of gravity. They don't care about suspension or tires or anything else for this calculation.

From the rules:

The SEB may use a Static Stability Factor (SSF) for classing new vehicles. SSF is defined as ½ track width (T) divided by the height of the center of gravity above the road (H) and can be calculated by the formula SSF=T/2H. Vehicles with an SSF of less than 1.30 should not be permitted to compete in Solo® events due to the higher risk of rollover.

If the SSF is not available from the manufacturer, then the formula is based on average track with and vehicle height (where height may not be greater than the track width).

So, I assume that the ST has been lowered in comparison to the base Fiesta, which moves it into the "allowed" category.

[xnvy]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


The first thing I thought of was your poor neon green Fiesta

You MUST trade it for an ST now, no choice Time to start a kickstarter so I can afford to pay the difference :rofl:

[Chantastic]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Other banned cars:

Dodge Caliber
Fiat 500
GEO Tracker
Suzuki Sidekick
Jeep CJ Series
MINI Countryman
Nissan Juke
Suzuki Samurai
Scion xB (04-06)
Scion iQ


What about the Juke Nismo?

[Murray Peterson]

Do the measurements and figure it out. Average track width: center of tire to center of tire on the front and rear. If they are different, calculate the average track width. Measure ground to highest point of vehicle -- must be less than or equal to average track width.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[relyt92]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I was reading that if you lower your car, it can be entered into a different class.


So... when are we going to throw the lowering springs in? :D


Honestly, I didn't see any difference in geometry between mine and yours From Fords site.
Non ST Fiesta:
Front track: 1465mm
Rear track: 1447mm
Height: 1476mm

St Fiesta:
Front track: 1465mm
Rear track: 1477mm
Height: 1454mm

Just over 2cm lower and enough to bring the height below the track width.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Murray Peterson]

Basically, they set the rule and don't really care if the height is .01 or 20 or 100 cm too much.

Tipping also depends on the rubber and the grip. I have seen a Mazda 3 way up on 2 wheels (like 45 degrees) at Fort Macleod. Good thing it was a good driver behind the wheel.

[Murray Peterson]

If a car is close to meeting the rule, it's pretty easy to modify it by lowering it and/or widening the stance. They can't run stock after the mods, but STF is a good class to run.

[reijo]

Fiat Abarth has been seen on 2 wheels ... so the regular one would be more risky since it has softer springs and is higher ... too bad since it is a fun car. Abarth is allowed though. Once lowered (plus maybe wider wheels/tires, spacers) you are OK to go.

I just calc'd whether adding 1/4" spacers would help for the Fiesta:

Avg. track (same for all Fiestas by the way) = (1447+1465)/2 = 1456 mm

ST hgt = 1454 mm .... just under! Therefore OK.

S model and others - 1476 mm > 1456 mm so no go.

However if we add a 1/4" spacer to each side (max. allowed in stock class) the track increases 1/2" (12.7 mm) = 1456 + 12.7 = 1468.7, 1468.7 < 1476 mm, Close ... but not enough.

I see there are 4 (?) sizes of tire: 185-60-15 (15x6 wheels), 195-50-16 (16x6 wheels), 195-60-16 (16x6.5 wheels) and 215-40-17 (17x7 wheels). offset of all wheels is 42 mm.

In this case, the track is affected by the size of wheel e.g. wider is better and increases the track width since due to the same offset, all the extra width of the wheel goes to the outside of the car! :)

Therefore, the ST has a 1" (25.4 mm) wider wheel and since all the width goes to the outside (same offset), the track should be 25.4 mm wider ... Ford does not show this in their specs ... which means that they are measuring their track width from the hub face (another definition), whereas the SCCA is measuring from the inside to outside face of the wheel OR center line of wheel to center line of wheel (the same thing).

Let's say you use the 6.5 wheel rather than the 6.0 std. wheel. This adds 1/2" to the track by the SCCA definition (or 12.7 mm). Provided the original track width given is right, then we have 1468.7 (with spacers) + 12.7 mm = 1481.4 mm track width. 1481.4 > 1476 mm. Therefore, by the SCCA specs in Sec 12.5 and page 34 of the 2014 rulebook (no changes for 2015 I believe), the regular Fiesta with the 16x6.5 wheels and 1/4" spacers all around should be legal.

However, due to the potential difference in measuring track width, someone with a Fiesta should measure the track at the center line of the hub (remember toe can affect this measurement....so you can't measure at the front or rear of the wheel ... unless you average them). Or is it time to bring a measuring tape to a Ford dealer or the new car show and crawl under the car? :)

Note also that the car has been placed on the exclusion list in the rule book as deemed to be a roll-over risk so this may preempt all of the measurements. :( However, I think that if you add the spacers and do the measurements, document etc. so you can prove the above, then you should be ok.

Note also, that the ST has thicker sway bars (I am guessing), stiffer bushings, shocks and springs all of which contribute to less body roll and less roll-over risk. Basically the std. model is softer all around and taller ... all of which contribute to roll-over risk especially when you put sticky tires on it. Some of the current street tires (such as Hankook R-S3, Dunlop Direzzas/Star Specs, Toyo R1R's etc.) are stickier than R-compounds not so long ago!

This is getting complicated, isn't it? I think even this short discussion is an indication of how hard it is to put proper rules in place .... so you might want to give the SCCA rule makers (all volunteers I might add!) a bit of slack. It is very complicated.....especially when you start considering all the cars out there ... Think about how you would evaluate every single car ... each new model every year .... etc.

BTW, what if you run a smaller diameter tire? That would reduce the height of the Fiesta and may also aid your cause! But if you have different diameter tires, you might want to make measurements for all of them. Note that the same size tire in another brand may not have the same diameter! Check the tires specs on TireRack.com for comparisons. That means that changing your brand of tire can change your center of gravity! :)

Do I have time for this? No. Why am I doing this? LOL

R

[reijo]

Just comparing tires (say you go with the 16x6 wheels, offset 42 mm) (from the Tire Rack web site):

1. Yokohama - AVID 195x60x16 (std. size) - diameter = 25.3"
2. Yokohama S.Drive 215x35x16 - diameter = 21.9"

Difference in vehicle height (divide by 2) is 1.7" or 43.18 mm!

That will make a difference right there! You will have more acceleration however your gears will, in effect, be shorter and you may be shifting more which may negate the "advantage" in autox competition.

R

[reijo]

In the end, I would probably just buy the ST anyway.

However if I did have the standard model, I would put smaller diameter tires plus the spacers on, do the measurements to see where I am to see if it is legal.

And, since I would like a little extra measure of safety, I would make sure I do all of the above and some aftermarket (custom valved for autox would be the best of course!) stiffer shocks to reduce the roll in the corners .... and a front or rear sway bar .... for better performance but also for anti-roll properties before I run the car. It would not be a good day, if I was upside down. :)

R

[MGCM]

the pedals on the base fiesta are too close for racing anyway:dunno:

[xnvy]

Someone on Fiesta Faction did the math and the answer is 15 mm. The Fiesta is too tall by 15 mm. I should just get a fatty to ride with me and my car would be legal by SCCA standards.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Just under-inflate your tires when they do the measurement. :nut: Talk about shaving hairs.

[riander5]

Good, these things are a an egg shaped danger to everyone around them

[Sugarphreak]

...

[MGCM]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I think that is only applicable for people who's eyes are too close together

My feet say otherwise after driving both a base Fiesta and the Fiesta ST. The pedals on the ST were a good distance apart, the base model they are way to freakin close for my giant alien feet.:dunno:

[relyt92]

Originally posted by MGCM


My feet say otherwise after driving both a base Fiesta and the Fiesta ST. The pedals on the ST were a good distance apart, the base model they are way to freakin close for my giant alien feet.:dunno: Ford wasn't planning on people with your shoes trying to heel-toe the base Fiesta though.