Free Range Parenting, or Helicopter Parenting?

[spikerS]

So, I just saw this in my news feed on FB, and it got me to thinking...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/21/manitoba-court-case-could-lead-to-canadian-legal-ban-on-school-aged-children-staying-home-alone/

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2015/01/20/free-range-parenting-kid-neglect/

In the first example, a mother left her 6 year old home alone for 90 minutes while she ran some errands, and is now charged with child abandonment, and could face 5 years in jail...

The second example, a mother chose to let her 2 children, aged 10 and 6 walk home together from the park in the neighborhood.

The topic up for debate isn't so much what you did as a kid, but what you are expected to do today as a parent.

Myself, we are guilty of both of these things. But it is very dependent on the child IMO. Our 9 year old we have no issues with leaving her home alone for an hour, while our 5 year old, we wouldn't trust her for more than checking the mail. Same goes for school. Our eldest walks alone to and from school when she feels like it, and while the first couple of times were nerve racking, we are 100% comfortable with it now.

What does Beyond think?

[Team_Mclaren]

I was taking the bus to the mall and shit by myself when i was propbably around 7. I think you are right that it depends on the kid, but the western world is too pussified on shit like this.

[FraserB]

The only reason this is even an issue is that retarded people think that there are pedophiles and criminals hiding in every bush.

By the time I have kids and raise them, I'm pretty sure all my parenting methods would be considered crimes.

[MGCM]

better lock your kids up at home and hold their hand 24/7 till they turn 18...........society..........ubur fail:thumbsdow

[vengie]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren
I was taking the bus to the mall and shit by myself when i was propbably around 7. I think you are right that it depends on the kid, but the western world is too pussified on shit like this.



Originally posted by FraserB
The only reason this is even an issue is that retarded people think that there are pedophiles and criminals hiding in every bush.

By the time I have kids and raise them, I'm pretty sure all my parenting methods would be considered crimes.


Both of these exactly.

[HiTempguy1]

Remember though, denying your kid treatment in Canada for cancer and basically killing them is A-OK! :nut:

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren
I was taking the bus to the mall and shit by myself when i was propbably around 7. I think you are right that it depends on the kid, but the western world is too pussified on shit like this. I read this as "I was taking the bus to the mall and shit myself when I was probably around 7".

And I thought "Yeah, I was scared of public transit at that age as well".

[blairtruck]

i want to my kid to walk to a close school as early as possibly.
my wife wants to drive our kid to a further school until they have their own vehicle by the sounds of it.

I will end up winning.

Just this morning i had a physio at 7AM. wife bikes to work at 630. but had to leave late today because of my appointment. she was bitching over text that she was gonna be super late.
when i was 5 min away i messaged saying she could leave. she wouldn't cause toddler was still asleep.

i got home, she left. kid slept for another hour.

[btimbit]

I try to teach my girlfriends 3 year old as much independence as possible, which is a foreign concept in her family. He's 3 so nothing crazy, so for the last year it's just been stuff like getting him to get his own milk when he's thirsty and do more stuff without help. Then by contrast there's a 9 year old in her family that would starve to death in a house full of food if there wasn't someone to get it for her.

I think some parents might be doing too much for their kids simply because they're afraid of being called lazy parents. I get called that all the time from my girlfriends family because I make this kid wipe his own ass. And that's certainly the main reason his mom babies him so much, because she's scared of looking like a lazy parent in front of her family, especially since her family is made up of awful parents, so she overcompensates and now is a bit of a helicopter parent.

Too many people confuse independent kids with neglected kids, that's all. They see a kid walking home alone from school and their first thought is "Where are that kids parents?" Is that kid walking home from school because mommy is busy rolling another joint? Maybe. Or maybe the kid just happens to be mature enough to walk a few blocks in broad daylight without getting lost or raped.

[btimbit]

Originally posted by Mibz
I read this as "I was taking the bus to the mall and shit myself when I was probably around 7".

And I thought "Yeah, I was scared of public transit at that age as well".

:rofl: When I read that the first time I thought he was saying he literally shit himself on the bus when he was 7

[revelations]

I used to walk home to/from school at the age of 6 in Vancouver in the 1980s, 15 minutes one way. Had to contend with no school zones, crazy dogs and strange people.

Its not like there are necessarily more predators pedophiles etc. - its that they are more intensely highlighted in the media and people panic at the first sign of any trouble.

[sputnik]

I specifically bought a house within walking distance of a good school so that I wouldn't have to deal with figuring out how to get them to and from school.

Right now my wife walks my son to Kindergarten (as do all of the other moms) but the moment one kid starts walking on his own all of the other kids will shoo their moms away. When my daughter starts kindergarten I suspect my son will just be in charge of getting her to school.

That said. Leaving a six year old at home for a couple of hours to run errands is just stupid. Is it really that hard to take your son to the store to get a couple of groceries?

My son is close to that age and while he might not cause himself a great deal of trouble, should something serious happen that was out of his control he probably isn't equipped well enough to deal with it on his own.

[Quiet10]

I started walking to school by myself starting in Grade 1, and so did most of the kids in my neighbourhood at the time. It was at least a 15 minute walk... Today's society is way too pussified for sure but good luck convincing some parents that.

[max_boost]

1. Lock the kid up in a room so no escape is possible.
2. Plant a chip so they can be tracked everywhere just like your iphone.

i mean that's where we are headed right.

[clem24]

Originally posted by sputnik
That said. Leaving a six year old at home for a couple of hours to run errands is just stupid. Is it really that hard to take your son to the store to get a couple of groceries?

My son is close to that age and while he might not cause himself a great deal of trouble, should something serious happen that was out of his control he probably isn't equipped well enough to deal with it on his own.

Agreed!! I always thought it was legally something like 10 or 12 but not sure anymore. If you consider your 6 year old to be old enough to stay at home by themselves, then they are likely old enough that they aren't a PITA to bring with you. My 6 year old buckles his own seat belt and oh heaven forbid, in a mall walks/goes to the washroom by himself.

So really why leave them at home? Even when I was a kid, the rule was something like 10 or 12 years old before you can be left alone and I still say that holds true.

[baygirl]

Originally posted by sputnik
I specifically bought a house within walking distance of a good school so that I wouldn't have to deal with figuring out how to get them to and from school.

Right now my wife walks my son to Kindergarten (as do all of the other moms) but the moment one kid starts walking on his own all of the other kids will shoo their moms away. When my daughter starts kindergarten I suspect my son will just be in charge of getting her to school.


I believe here in Calgary kindergarten students aren't allowed to leave the school until the teacher sees a parent/approved caregiver. If no one is there the kid goes into the office and a parent is called.

[baygirl]

Our oldest was 9 when we started leaving her home alone for a few minutes(under 30 minutes). We gradually built it up and will now leave her for up to an hour. Our youngest on the other hand will probably be in junior high before we consider it:rofl: All depends on the kid and their maturity level(for instance some nights I regret leaving spikerS home alone.:poosie:

[Black Gts]

When I was 5 I walked myself to school, there was a shortcut that involved a creek or the long way over the bridge. I think I used the bridge twice.

[max_boost]

I started skipping school in gr.1 and got in so much shit for it. I couldn't tell time I would walk down the alley and through this back route to a yellow bridge, chill for a bit and then come back home. Grandma be like WTF? I did that randomly until I got busted. :rofl:

[suntan]

Originally posted by baygirl

I believe here in Calgary kindergarten students aren't allowed to leave the school until the teacher sees a parent/approved caregiver. If no one is there the kid goes into the office and a parent is called. They only do that for the first couple of weeks, after it's every rug rat for themselves.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by max_boost
1. Lock the kid up in a room so no escape is possible.
2. Plant a chip so they can be tracked everywhere just like your iphone.

i mean that's where we are headed right.

We are already there for 2:

http://www.parents.com/parenting/technology/best-apps-for-paranoid-parents/

[firebane]

I knew a parent who had a 8 year old kid that they STILL tied their shoes for. Some parents are not meant to be parents and some kids need extra help.

But society these days as a whole treats kids with too much softness and will end up creating a society of adults who need diapers changed at 30.

[Masked Bandit]

I'm all about the free range approach (within reason of course). My job is to prepare the ankle-biters to fend for themselves and then kick them out of my house. Roll 'em in the dirt, rough 'em up a bit and make sure they know they're loved. Oh ya, and don't forget to get out of my house.

;)

[firebane]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
I'm all about the free range approach (within reason of course). My job is to prepare the ankle-biters to fend for themselves and then kick them out of my house. Roll 'em in the dirt, rough 'em up a bit and make sure they know they're loved. Oh ya, and don't forget to get out of my house.

;)

But dirt is full of gross disgusting germs that will make kids sick! Can't have thatn.

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by firebane


But dirt is full of gross disgusting germs that will make kids sick! Can't have thatn.


No germs in dirt, it's organic brother!

[Sugarphreak]

...

[speedog]

Paging Modelexis and Arash - would be interesting to hear their views on all of this.

Personally leaned more towards free range parenting over the past 23 years but even then, my kids never had quite the free range I did growing up in the 60/70's - different era plus growing up in a city of a million plus compared to the little prairie hick towns (under 100 people) I resided in as a kid saw to that.

Certainly I don't envy those raising kids now as there just seem to more and more helicopter type of parents running amuk and gaining control of parent councils or similar organizations. One only has to look at any modern playground - they are symptomatic of what I speak of.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Then there is this gem inside the story: apparently the year before "she wheeled her toddler into a ditch and wandered away to sleep off an ecstasy high".


you need to go read that again. That is a statement made by the reporter of other examples of Child Abandonment, not instances of this mother doing things.


Winnipeg child abandonment cases are usually much more ghastly. Last March, a 22-year-old mother was convicted after abandoning her children, ages two and four, for hours as she drank at a hotel bar.

The year before, a 23-year-old faced child-abandonment charges after she wheeled her toddler into a ditch and wandered away to sleep off an ecstasy high.

In the case currently being decided, a Winnipeg mother was arrested soon after Child and Family Services became aware that she intentionally left her child unattended for 90 minutes as she ran errands.

when read in context, you can see that they used that as a comparison, not saying it was the same mother.

[danno]

What is the actual laws on this matter?

[C_Dave45]

A different time for sure, but I was looking after myself at age 7. My dad worked shift work on the BC Ferries, so I would wake myself up, make breakfast and lunch, then take a bus from the North Shore of Vancouver, through downtown and the Hastings & Main area onto my school in east Van.
when he worked nights I came home and did my chores and made my own dinner. Anything from canned chilli up to steak and potatoes or even a baked chicken. In order for me to do the dishes comfortably, I had to use a stool at the sink. He didn't get home until after midnight.
I was very independent at 7 years old, but also being so independent I wasn't afraid to get into "trouble" on my own. Smoking tobacco and weed by 9 yrs old, I was a true "flower child" of the 70's.

[botox]

We are expected to keep our kids safe and free from danger till they are able to fend for themselves. Do I think some laws are dumb? HELL YEAH! But there needs to be guidelines because things like "It depends on how mature the child is" doesn't give a good guideline whereas a specific age does. I have been on both sides of the fence and it is something I wouldn't want any parent or child to experience. My old neighbor was extremely bad for leaving his kids aged about 6 and 8 out while both parents were working for hours at a time not knowing who's house they were at. I could of reported him many times but couldn't convince myself to do it.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by baygirl
All depends on the kid and their maturity level(for instance some nights I regret leaving spikerS home alone.:poosie:

Who, whoa, whoa, wait a second. You guys live together? When did you get married?

[ExtraSlow]

try to keep up. Heavyfuel bought a house and spikers lives with baygirl. Also, there are white people on beyond.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Also, there are white people on beyond.

Except TomCo. TomCo is Asian.

[killramos]

I remember in grade 4-5 i started riding my bike to school (from bridgeland to the far side of Inglewood).

My parents had jobs so they sure as hell didn't come with me. After school i would take my weekly 10 bucks allowance and buy hockey cars across from the Inglewood used car lot. Then i would ride home or chill out at a friends house until my parents started calling around telling me to go home. That was like 9-10 years old i guess but there seems to be a large disconnect...

:dunno:

[spikerS]

I know for me, I always walked to and from school to home, right from kindergarten, 700m each way, 4 times a day (uphill in waist deep snow both ways in July). grade 7-12 was a 1.9km walk.

I got kicked out of the house to go play. In the winter I made snow forts, in the summer, i came home when the streetlights came on, or the mom holler chain caught up to me. the mom holler chain is when your mom starts yelling your name from your house. If you are not home by the 3rd yell, other moms in hearing distance would start hollering too, until someone found you and sent you home.

I miss those days.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by FraserB


Except TomCo. TomCo is Asian.

So is ZenOps

[FraserB]

Originally posted by killramos
I remember in grade 4-5 i started riding my bike to school (from bridgeland to the far side of Inglewood).

My parents had jobs so they sure as hell didn't come with me. After school i would take my weekly 10 bucks allowance and buy hockey cars across from the Inglewood used car lot. Then i would ride home or chill out at a friends house until my parents started calling around telling me to go home. That was like 9-10 years old i guess but there seems to be a large disconnect...

:dunno:

It's like there was some bizarre turn in thinking 8 or 9 years ago and everyone suddenly got ridiculously paranoid. I know I used to go over to a friend's house after school, many times not telling my parents where I was, and coming home at 9 at night. No one ever called the cops and when I wound up getting hurt, all that happened was my parents asking if I learned a lesson.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by suntan
They only do that for the first couple of weeks, after it's every rug rat for themselves. This is not true. We just got hit with this last week at the bus stop and the wife didn't get there in time. They wouldn't let our daughter off the bus, grade 1.

If there's nobody at the stop to take your child, they do the whole route and come back. If you're still not there they take the kid back to the school. If there's nobody at the school, or the school can't get a hold of you, then they take the child to the local police station and someone from there will try contact you and you have to pick up your child from there.

From my memory, it's in grade two they relax on this.

[killramos]

Originally posted by codetrap

If there's nobody at the stop to take your child, they do the whole route and come back. If you're still not there they take the kid back to the school. If there's nobody at the school, or the school can't get a hold of you, then they take the child to the local police station and someone from there will try contact you and you have to pick up your child from there.


Sounds like a great way to chill out at a patio for a couple hours after work without the brat?

:rofl:

[R154]

Hold on, Heavyfuel bought a house!?!?

Where??

Congrats man!

[clem24]

Originally posted by codetrap
This is not true. We just got hit with this last week at the bus stop and the wife didn't get there in time. They wouldn't let our daughter off the bus, grade 1.

Yup same at my son's school; will not release kid without approved person picking up kid present.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by codetrap
This is not true. We just got hit with this last week at the bus stop and the wife didn't get there in time. They wouldn't let our daughter off the bus, grade 1.

If there's nobody at the stop to take your child, they do the whole route and come back. If you're still not there they take the kid back to the school. If there's nobody at the school, or the school can't get a hold of you, then they take the child to the local police station and someone from there will try contact you and you have to pick up your child from there.

From my memory, it's in grade two they relax on this.

There has been some research done on this topic, and I found one reference that suggests Grade 4 is old enough to walk alone. I have a memory of something from CBE or AHS suggesting grade 3.

In the end, it is a parental decision and should be based on the maturity of the child, and the distance and route.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by clem24


Yup same at my son's school; will not release kid without approved person picking up kid present.
That's weird, because it's not what it says on the CBE website according to the "my first ride" program. Maybe it's a school-by-school thing?

[suntan]

Originally posted by codetrap
This is not true. We just got hit with this last week at the bus stop and the wife didn't get there in time. They wouldn't let our daughter off the bus, grade 1.

If there's nobody at the stop to take your child, they do the whole route and come back. If you're still not there they take the kid back to the school. If there's nobody at the school, or the school can't get a hold of you, then they take the child to the local police station and someone from there will try contact you and you have to pick up your child from there.

From my memory, it's in grade two they relax on this. Wow, you have a paranoid school.

Yes, it's up to the school to decide policy.

[speedog]

So I would imagine this whole "release of a child' thing is a school board policy - as such, maybe it's time for some pressure to be put upon school board members and have new school board members voted in.

I know I am thankful that my kids were all able to walk to/from all levels of CBE schooling but at the same time even walking home became an issue once - my one son while in grade ( fell ill at school. He contacted us and we said he should just walk home, let himself in the house and take care of himself until my wife got home in about 90 minutes - well that was not good enough for the school, a parent/guardian was supposed to arrive and take him home. Apparently, it was not safe for him to walk 400 meters home (most of that across a park/school field) - never the less, he did walk home after quite a discussion with the school staff and we had a meeting the next day with the principal and the end result is that he would be able to walk home again if a similar situation occurred. Our argument is that if he could walk to/from school safely at the the beginning and end of school plus most times at lunch, then why wouldn't he be able to walk home when feeling a bit nauseous? It's not like he was passing out or anything like that and he was 14.

Problem is the people getting voted onto these school boards are driven those who contact them and it's becoming apparent that helicopter parents certainly have been more proactive in getting their agendas across. Yeah, I realize that to become involved in a parent's association involves a bit of commitment but it is one way that some of the lunacy can be slowed down or halted. But this responsibility is now passed onto others - my wife and I have sat on various school councils for many years and have tried to be a reasonable voice. Still didn't stop a school policy some 6+ years ago at a elementary school my kids attended whereas they weren't allowed to bring white fleshed fish to school in their lunches because one student had an allergy to such - yeah I know it was a life/death situation but at some point a line has to be drawn, no? Playgrounds will soon be padded is my guess if things keep going as they are or there just won't be playgrounds - are snowball fights even allowed anymore?

edit - so if it's a school by school thing, then people need to step up to the plate and be on their kid's school parent's association. Just be prepared for the most ridiculous shit to come at you.

[tirebob]

I parented my kids with a bit of both techniques with a strong leaning toward free range.

I grew up in the 70's and we walked ourselves to school from kindergarten on, but we grew up in a small town in the mountains where everybody knows everybody, so if I was getting into trouble or simply got distracted for a couple hours, my parents more often than not knew what I was doing or where I was before I even got through the door for dinner. Someone would always call with a "do you know what your son is doing???" Or "your kid is catching snakes by the creek in our field... Come get him before he gets bit" or whatever...

Nowadays, especially in the city, nobody gives enough of a shit about other peoples kids that you don't have any kind of community safety net so parents do need to be a bit more involved and watchful. It shouldn't be to the point where you are not teaching them how to look out for themselves, but at the same time it shouldn't be that you just trust a six year old to do whatever the hell they want in the name of freedom...

The first few times my 7-8 year old wanted to walk to the 7/11 by himself (about a 20 minute walk then) I totally let him, but I followed behind a ways without him knowing I was there to see how he would handle things. After he did it a few times and I saw he was handling crossing roads properly etc I was good with it totally on his own. In my opinion, that is good parenting.

It is all about balance. Most of the kids who don't know how to behave properly today seem to have predominantly one type of parenting without the other. Too much helicopter and they never learn how to think for themselves, but too much free range and they never learn to make decisions based on what is best for everyone and not just themselves...

[speedog]

Part of the problem I see now is that the all the kids that might live on a block don't o to the same school like most of did in the 60 or 70's - I can look at my block and the current K-12 kids probably go to 8-10 different schools including regular english CBE, french immersion CBE, spanish bilingual CBE, Catholic, private, special needs and in some families, both kids go to different grade schools. This means that a lot of these kids never get to know each other because they're going in so many different ways - for my family though, we were luck in that my kids have had K-12 CBE english schools within 4 blocks and they also had neighboring kids who went to these same schools right from K-12 but this is certainly not the norm any more. Now add in the factor of how many kids get driven to/from school and don't ride the bus with other kids in their community and I can understand how people might become helicopter parents - those parent's own choices (schooling, busing, whatever) feed into insecurities they may have about they own children's safety.

Hell, I remember how aghast my sister-in-law was that my boys at 10-12 would go downtown on transit to spend a Saturday afternoon hanging out, having lunch/whatever - hell, they're still alive and much more well rounded and independent individuals (IMHO) because of those experiences they did on their own. But I would bet the majority of the younger parents on this forum do drive their kids to/from school instead of putting them on a bus or walk with their kids to/from school or don't allow their kids to get on a transit bus or walk to the 7-Eleven by themselves - they won't speak up on a forum such as this because of the fear of being ostracized. But maybe that's the way things will be for the majority which will result in another more pussified generation - heaven forbid that a kid can't do something on their own. Guess the baby on board signs will be supplemented by coddled child on board and yeah, there no doubt is more then a few Beyond members who have those ridiculous baby on board stickers/signs in their vehicles.

[suntan]

Make an effort to know your neighbours. We know all the kids around us, and there's always someone keeping an eye out on the children.

[CompletelyNumb]

Originally posted by suntan
Make an effort to know your neighbours. We know all the kids around us, and there's always someone keeping an eye out on the children.


I wish more people would. Calgary had the lowest sense of "community" I've ever experienced.

[speedog]

Originally posted by suntan
Make an effort to know your neighbours. We know all the kids around us, and there's always someone keeping an eye out on the children.
That is becoming not the norm anymore - that is to get to know your neighbors. On our block everyone does the same thing - look out for each over but out of 21 homes, maybe 3 have turned over in the past 15 years and only 3 or so families have opted to remain disconnected from the social fabric of our block. Hockey nets still appear on our street regularly, our Stampede block party will be into it's 17th year this summer, hell we know when a older kid on the street has a new girl or boy friend because a strange vehicle starts showing up regularly - but that is not the norm.

Hell, I can go a block west or east of our block and the same thing hasn't happened, my in-laws in Tuscany don't even know some of their neighbors across the street or 3-4 house s on either side of them and they've been there 20 years. It's takes some effort to be a good neighbor - more than going inside one's home and closing the door behind yourself.

[killramos]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb



I wish more people would. Calgary had the lowest sense of "community" I've ever experienced.

Probably because everyone tries to sue each other over fence placement or parking :rofl:

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by suntan
Wow, you have a paranoid school.


This isn't about the potential risks presented by strangers, bu about the school shielding itself from the hassles and potential litigation when some kids goes missing.

[speedog]

Simpler times these aren't.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
I wish more people would. Calgary had the lowest sense of "community" I've ever experienced. Look in the mirror. In pretty much every social circle there's someone that's the glue. In our neighborhood it's probably my next door neighbor. She's made the effort to meet every single neighbor and create a relationship with them. So, if you're wishing that would happen, then it's up to you to make it happen. We've taken that as our example and continued it.

The biggest reason it doesn't? Laziness, followed by fear.

As for spikerS original post? Either extreme is stupid. The goal is to find balance. Our society isn't becoming more pussified, unless you guys are willing to admit it's happened to you too. Don't think so? Talk to your parents on how they were raised. Just because we're kinder and more concerned about our kids doesn't mean they're going to be a bunch of pussies. I don't need to beat my kids every single day and basically ignore them until they stopped working on the farm like my Dad was raised just to insure they grow up *tough enough*. Taking any method to the extreme is just stupid.

Final Edit: There's probably nothing more polarizing than talking about raising kids, and everyone has an opinion based on their own personal experience. But ultimately every kid is different, as is every parent. As long as the kid grows up to be a relatively normal person, none of them are completely wrong. It's a tough job, and kudos to anyone that takes it on in a thinking and rational fashion.

[max_boost]

No one wants to bear the responsibility of having shit go wrong.

[speedog]

Okay, here's a simple but loaded question - how many of you have kids that have a cell phone for their personal use that they can not or do not pay the monthly bill for?

Truthfully, an 'aware' kid who knows where to meet Mom and/or Dad or who knows how to ask politely to use a phone at school or somewhere else just doesn't have the need for a cell phone. But I've met untold numbers of parents who honestly believe that their little precious ones need that personal cell phone and some of these parents are still paying for their kid's plans well into their kid's teen-aged years even though the kid has a part time job.

Some of these kids also have vehicles or whatever given to them by their parents and these item's continuing costs are fully funded by their parents even after they leave the nest - please do explain how any of this is equipping a child to become a normal functioning adult that can face adverse situations and come up with solutions on their own?

I'm not talking about hard-knocks learning but just about parents that coddle their little ones way too much and continue that pattern into their children's young adult lives even. Ask yourselves this - as a parent do/did you put safety covers on the electrical outlets or safety latches on all cupboards? Why? Our 3 are alive and well - took one a couple of times to figure out the electricity thing (no covers whatsoever) and we only latched the kitchen under-sink area because of the chemicals kept there.

Honestly, what are people afraid of?

[max_boost]

Originally posted by speedog



Honestly, what are people afraid of? Of the 1%

[btimbit]

Always chuckle when a young kid has a cell phone. What good does it do for emergencies, every kid 13 or younger I know that has their own phone is constantly losing and/or not charging it.


Originally posted by speedog
Truthfully, an 'aware' kid who knows where to meet Mom and/or Dad or who knows how to ask politely to use a phone at school or somewhere else just doesn't have the need for a cell phone.

Nonsense! Ask someone else for help? Can't do that, every stranger is out to steal your kid.

[speedog]

Originally posted by max_boost
Of the 1%
Don't know you, but if you have kids, are you afraid of that 1%? Honest question.

Too many on here will be silent while doing exactly what I am critical of - obviously helicopter parenting is becoming more mainstream so why won't they speak up in defense of what they're doing, maybe they'll enlighten an older guy. There's just no way that we have the large community we do have here in Beyond and that there aren't more than a fair share of them who helicopter in some fashion.

[lasimmon]

If free range parenting includes putting my kids in a fenced in field, sign me up!

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by max_boost
No one wants to bear the liability of having shit go wrong.

Fixed that for you.

As for us, I suspect my wife will be more helicopter than I would like, as she's always been overly concerned about the minutiae of life, where as I'm willing to bet I'll be a little too free-range for her likings, lol.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
I wish more people would. Calgary had the lowest sense of "community" I've ever experienced.

Happens less and less these days with both parents working in most families. Kids are sent to day cares, before-and-after programs and then in the summer are sent to day-camps and summer camps. Kids are never around the community anymore. They come home to eat supper and go to sleep.

I miss the days when everyone was around because moms rarely worked. These days everyone is busy and kids are being raised by daycare workers.

I live in Winnipeg now where there are a LOT more single-income families. As a result, my wife knows the moms of more than half of the kids in my son's kindergarten class and I have met many of the dads because all of the mom's know each other.

When I am at the park I know many of the parents there and they know my kids. Interestingly enough many of them lived in other cities (YYC, YVR, YUL etc) before having kids but came back (or just moved to) Winnipeg because it allowed them to have a parent stay at home with their kids full time.

IMO when you live in a community where you have stay at home parents it makes your communities much safer.

[killramos]

Originally posted by btimbit

Nonsense! Ask someone else for help? Can't do that, every stranger is out to steal your kid.

Just what everyone wants.

I always think to myself, you know what i want to do?

Take care of someone elses kid forever.

I cant think of anything better to do.

:rofl:

[MalibuStacy]

I think there needs to be a consideration for entrepreneur parents. Until I was in HS. Both my parents worked, Dad at Telus and Mum at home as a stay at home Mum and entrepreneur. She still had the ability to do things because she could work her schedule to fit with our school times and she would work the evenings after my Dad came home.

TBH this was the best way for me to grow up, cause I always got to go home for lunch, often having friends coming with me, and then at night my siblings and I got to goof off with Dad.

I have an issue with the fact that we as a society have an issue with the Dad being the stay at home parent. I don't see the issue with it personally, but again, I also think of myself as a bit of a feminist in this way of thinking.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by speedog
Too many on here will be silent while doing exactly what I am critical of - obviously helicopter parenting is becoming more mainstream I don't think this is obvious at all. The only thing I see is an increased REPORTING of helicopter parenting. I also see perfectly reasonable things being incorrectly labeled as helicopter parenting by people that aren't parents. There are of course outliers, parents who literally are micromanaging every aspect of their children's lives, but I think those are not the norm. They just make for good stories so they're very well reported. You simply don't hear about the vast majority of boring old parents that take the path that makes the most sense and is the easiest. Teach them the skills they need, and then give them the freedom to explore with those skills.

For example, I got called a helicopter parent for spending time actively teaching mountain biking skills to my daughter. I went out with her and taught her the specific technical skills she'd need to jump logs, cross creeks, do steep uphills and downhills, rocks, how to crash without getting really hurt, and when to bail. I was told that I *should let her figure it out on her own*. I think it's ridiculous that she should have to learn something the hard way when I can simply impart my experience to her and give her a head start.

I recently read a good article on this... it makes a good argument the other direction.

The real problem with Helicopter Parents is there aren't enough of them. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/the-real-problem-with-helicopter-parents-there-arent-enough-of-them/263410/

[sputnik]

Originally posted by MalibuStacy
I have an issue with the fact that we as a society have an issue with the Dad being the stay at home parent. I don't see the issue with it personally, but again, I also think of myself as a bit of a feminist in this way of thinking.

I don't have an issue between stay-at-home moms or dads.

However stay-at-home dads have it tough, because its not like they will be able to hang out with all of the stay-at-home moms for play dates without the working husbands being at least a little bit suspicious.

What bothers me more is when two people choose to have a family and then just think that neither of them has to sacrifice their career and social life (even temporarily) to raise their kids through the more formative years (0-6 years).

Just because your child doesn't die while you are at work doesn't mean they are being raised properly or that your kids are happy.

My wife takes our youngest to a play-group at one of the schools and there are a few kids that come with a day-home. One of the girls was always looking sad and my wife asked her what was wrong. She started crying and told her that she missed her mom. My wife (being the person she is) offered to read her a couple of books to make her feel better. Now whenever my wife is at the playgroup this girl seeks her out with books in her arms ready for my wife to read them to her. It should be her mom that is reading her these books, not my wife.

Now there is a chance that this mom MUST work (single parent or due to some other financial problems) but the vast majority of parents I work with on a daily basis both work not because they have to but rather they both work because they like new cars, bigger houses and winter vacations. So in a sense they are putting their material desires or career aspirations before their kids basic needs to be close to a parent on a constant basis.

[codetrap]

This is going to seem like I'm picking on your man, but that's not my purpose. I'm just going to address your points from my perspective.


Originally posted by speedog
Okay, here's a simple but loaded question - how many of you have kids that have a cell phone for their personal use that they can not or do not pay the monthly bill for? None of mine. I can't see why a 7 year old needs a cell phone in grade one.



Originally posted by speedog
Some of these kids also have vehicles or whatever given to them by their parents and these item's continuing costs are fully funded by their parents even after they leave the nest - please do explain how any of this is equipping a child to become a normal functioning adult that can face adverse situations and come up with solutions on their own?[/B] And this is different from when I grew up how? I knew several of my friends that were given cars as teens when I was in high school. LOTS. It was more a function of the income of the parents than anything else. Blaming parents today for doing the same that rich or well'to'do parents have always done and calling it helicopter parenting? Does it equip them to leave the nest any more or less? I can't say. I haven't seen any studies either way. I know a couple that went on to be wildly successful, and others that ended up basically doing nothing but smoking pot all the time.


Originally posted by speedog
I'm not talking about hard-knocks learning but just about parents that coddle their little ones way too much and continue that pattern into their children's young adult lives even. Ask yourselves this - as a parent do/did you put safety covers on the electrical outlets or safety latches on all cupboards? Why? Our 3 are alive and well - took one a couple of times to figure out the electricity thing (no covers whatsoever) and we only latched the kitchen under-sink area because of the chemicals kept there.

Honestly, what are people afraid of? [/B] With my first child, I did put the plug blocks in, and the door handles. I did latch the cupboards and put safety crap up. With the second, I have a gate at the bottom of the stairs, and one at the top, and a latch on the cupboards that I don't want her going into, like the chemicals one, or the one with all the pretty glass. Otherwise no. The reason I did it the first time? Because all the literature I read that we were given from the hospital said I should childproof the house to create a safe environment. The books all agreed. Childproof... I was skeptical, but went along with it. Why not, it only cost a few bucks, and if it could mitigate some risk until I could explain things like electricity, or burned fingers on the fireplace, then great! I see you looking back at your successful raising using hindsight, "Our kids are still alive even though they got zapped a few times"... tell me, would you have spared your kid that painful lesson if you could have taught them another way? I learned the hard way too, and have the scars to prove it. I wanted to take the path of teaching my daughter without her having to learn the painful way. The last thing I want for my kids is a trip to the hospital to get treated for electrical burns, like I had to do.

[MalibuStacy]

But we give our kids everything, is this not putting them first?

I grew up in a middle (probably lower middle) class family. Everything I ever got was typically earned. I developed a real respect for hard work.

Material doesn't necessarily nature, and certainly does not mean kids first.

Case and point my GF has always had pretty much everything she ever wanted, but her parents have never been there for her emotionally, their idea is that the answer to proper parenting is to invest money. Whereas I grew up with less material goods, and had very supportive parents. I would always take the latter.

I'd rather be poor n happy, than rich with lots of toys.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by MalibuStacy
Case and point my GF has always had pretty much everything she ever wanted, but her parents have never been there for her emotionally, their idea is that the answer to proper parenting is to invest money. Whereas I grew up with less material goods, and had very supportive parents. I would always take the latter.

+1

Time > Money

You can't buy time or save it... you can only spend it.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by MalibuStacy
But we give our kids everything, is this not putting them first?

I grew up in a middle (probably lower middle) class family. Everything I ever got was typically earned. I developed a real respect for hard work.

Material doesn't necessarily nature, and certainly does not mean kids first.

Case and point my GF has always had pretty much everything she ever wanted, but her parents have never been there for her emotionally, their idea is that the answer to proper parenting is to invest money. Whereas I grew up with less material goods, and had very supportive parents. I would always take the latter.

I'd rather be poor n happy, than rich with lots of toys.

I got a lot of stuff growing up. I developed a real respect for hard work to earn other things and to give my kids the same as I received.

[speedog]

Originally posted by codetrap
This is going to seem like I'm picking on your man, but that's not my purpose. I'm just going to address your points from my perspective.

None of mine. I can't see why a 7 year old needs a cell phone in grade one.


And this is different from when I grew up how? I knew several of my friends that were given cars as teens when I was in high school. LOTS. It was more a function of the income of the parents than anything else. Blaming parents today for doing the same that rich or well'to'do parents have always done and calling it helicopter parenting? Does it equip them to leave the nest any more or less? I can't say. I haven't seen any studies either way. I know a couple that went on to be wildly successful, and others that ended up basically doing nothing but smoking pot all the time.

With my first child, I did put the plug blocks in, and the door handles. I did latch the cupboards and put safety crap up. With the second, I have a gate at the bottom of the stairs, and one at the top, and a latch on the cupboards that I don't want her going into, like the chemicals one, or the one with all the pretty glass. Otherwise no. The reason I did it the first time? Because all the literature I read that we were given from the hospital said I should childproof the house to create a safe environment. The books all agreed. Childproof... I was skeptical, but went along with it. Why not, it only cost a few bucks, and if it could mitigate some risk until I could explain things like electricity, or burned fingers on the fireplace, then great! I see you looking back at your successful raising using hindsight, "Our kids are still alive even though they got zapped a few times"... tell me, would you have spared your kid that painful lesson if you could have taught them another way? I learned the hard way too, and have the scars to prove it. I wanted to take the path of teaching my daughter without her having to learn the painful way. The last thing I want for my kids is a trip to the hospital to get treated for electrical burns, like I had to do.
Only am going to respond to the bolded part above, the rest you make very good points.

I guess we were lucky in that our child didn't get electrical burns, still I wouldn't change the way we did things. Here's another example, went for a hike in the woods in B.C. some 7-8 years ago - get some 20 minutes in and my daughter, 9 at the time, announces she needs to take a crap. No one has any toilet paper but her, being the resourceful and thinking on her feet kind of kid that she is, finds a fallen log to squat over and proceeds to clean up with a handful of unidentified leaves she picked. We made sure they weren't poison ivy or something similar but I can only imagine how many parents would've rushed back to the car or had a complete meltdown because their kid wiped their ass with something other than toilet paper.

And codetrap - you teaching your kid some skills, I wouldn't call that helicopter parenting in any way. There is teaching your kids some life skills or there is teaching them only to learn by no or poor examples and poor/no examples can include hovering too much as opposed to teaching them nothing at all. My Dad, in taking us out on the bald prairie and teaching us how to properly shoot a rifle and shot gun, was doing the right thing. Did we learn how to properly hold a shot gun when my one brother decided to be a smart ass and not secure the gun securely against his shoulder after watching a couple of us do it the right way - sure we did. That is not helicoptering, that is just teaching a child the skills they may not learn on their own without much trial and error. A helicopter parent would have their daughter get off of their bike every time they faced an obstacle and safely traverse around or better yet, Mom or Dad would just do it for them.

[suntan]

Pfft, my kids know to try going to the bathroom before we go on a hike.

[speedog]

Shit happens. :)

[codetrap]

Originally posted by speedog

Only am going to respond to the bolded part above, the rest you make very good points.

I guess we were lucky in that our child didn't get electrical burns, still I wouldn't change the way we did things. Here's another example, went for a hike in the woods in B.C. some 7-8 years ago - get some 20 minutes in and my daughter, 9 at the time, announces she needs to take a crap. No one has any toilet paper but her, being the resourceful and thinking on her feet kind of kid that she is, finds a fallen log to squat over and proceeds to clean up with a handful of unidentified leaves she picked. We made sure they weren't poison ivy or something similar but I can only imagine how many parents would've rushed back to the car or had a complete meltdown because their kid wiped their ass with something other than toilet paper.

And codetrap - you teaching your kid some skills, I wouldn't call that helicopter parenting in any way. There is teaching your kids some life skills or there is teaching them only to learn by no or poor examples and poor/no examples can include hovering too much as opposed to teaching them nothing at all. My Dad, in taking us out on the bald prairie and teaching us how to properly shoot a rifle and shot gun, was doing the right thing. Did we learn how to properly hold a shot gun when my one brother decided to be a smart ass and not secure the gun securely against his shoulder after watching a couple of us do it the right way - sure we did. That is not helicoptering, that is just teaching a child the skills they may not learn on their own without much trial and error. A helicopter parent would have their daughter get off of their bike every time they faced an obstacle and safely traverse around or better yet, Mom or Dad would just do it for them. I think we're a lot on the same page. I didn't describe it very well, but we didn't do the plugs, or safety knobs or anything but the gates and the latches on the dangerous cupboards for the second one. Even with the first one we still did our best to "worldproof" the child because when we went to other places, they don't have childproof homes. I just really wanted to point out that there's a lot of people going off about helicopter parenting when the truth of the matter is they don't really have a clue, like the guy giving me heck out of my bike skills training. They see any parent interacting with their kids extensively or dropping them off/picking them up from school and they immediately start screaming "Helicopter!!!" when they don't have ANY clue what's going on.

Edit: I reread your comment about the parent doing it for them on the bike obstacle, and I just wanted to say that the first time I was teaching my daughter to jump curbs I DID hold onto the bike and help her up/down them, but I was also instructing her on how to shift her body weight correctly so she wouldn't face plant. I could see how that could look to a casual observer, but it couldn't be farther from the truth.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by danno
What is the actual laws on this matter?
I've been trying to find some solid applicable laws about this topic, and this is the best I can do.


Originally posted by The Criminal Code of Canada
Abandoning child
218. Every one who unlawfully abandons or exposes a child who is under the age of ten years, so that its life is or is likely to be endangered or its health is or is likely to be permanently injured,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding eighteen months.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 218; 2005, c. 32, s. 12.

Prior to 2005, the maximum imprisonment was 2 years for either a summary conviction or for an indictable offence.


Originally posted by The Government of Alberta Website
What age do children have to be before they can be left at home alone?
There is no law in Alberta that specifies at what age children can be left alone. When considering leaving a child unsupervised, age and maturity are important factors in assessing whether care and supervision is adequate. Many Albertans expect families to arrange care or supervision for children left alone under the age of 12.

If a child is in an unsafe situation, a child intervention worker has the ability to investigate and support the parents to take action to ensure the child is protected. If you believe a child is unsafe, refer the matter to your local Child and Family Services Authority or to the Child Abuse Hotline (1-800-387-5437).

I think the devil is in the details of that last paragraph. If someone reports you, then CFSA will investigate, and I assume that's going to go badly for the parent in the majority of cases, even if there is no criminal charge.

I can't find a single law relating to a child walking alone to and from school.

[legendboy]

In grade 2 I use to walk from 24th sw to Louis Riel Elementary school thru the green space. Google tells me it was a 2.1km treck. I was in grade 2 when our route became blocked by some ruffians but I somehow got my little sister to school grade 1. We started riding our bikes after that.

Now I am 36 with a 4yr old in preschool and an 8yr old girl in grade 3. (both girls)
I will make sure they get to school every day myself or my wife. We had pedo's taking pictures in hidden valley last year

Not the same world I grew up in

[spikerS]

Originally posted by legendboy
We had pedo's taking pictures in hidden valley last year

Not the same world I grew up in

Yeah, I remember hearing something like that last year in Coventry too. Turned out to be a realtor taking pictures of the house he was listing, but the soccer moms all feared the worst case scenario.

I remember when my old dogs escaped the yard, and I had to go hunting for them, and ended up finding a bylaw officer in the area looking for them too, but my dogs had been reported as large pitbulls, when they were anything but.

It is human nature to cry that it is the worst possible case so they can feel important.

[firebane]

Originally posted by legendboy
In grade 2 I use to walk from 24th sw to Louis Riel Elementary school thru the green space. Google tells me it was a 2.1km treck. I was in grade 2 when our route became blocked by some ruffians but I somehow got my little sister to school grade 1. We started riding our bikes after that.

Now I am 36 with a 4yr old in preschool and an 8yr old girl in grade 3. (both girls)
I will make sure they get to school every day myself or my wife. We had pedo's taking pictures in hidden valley last year

Not the same world I grew up in

How do you know? As a kid you get sheltered from a lot of things and I bet there was just as many weirdos and crazies living around you that you simply did not remember.

[ExtraSlow]

The world is a lot safer now than the one we all grew up in. We just hear a lot more about bad things happening.

Also, statistically speaking, most abductions and sexual assaults on children are perpetrated by family members. You shouldn't be scared of letting them walk to school alone, you should be scared of taking them to Christmas dinner.

[legendboy]

True enough but as a parent I think it is just what your comfortable risking :dunno: