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msommers
02-09-2015, 09:51 PM
Source: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

Probably easier to read using the link. I honestly think this is worth a full read, not that TL;DR bullshit - It goes into topics I hadn't ever considered.



Why Do Many Reasonable People Doubt Science?

We live in an age when all manner of scientific knowledge—from climate change to vaccinations—faces furious opposition.
Some even have doubts about the moon landing.
By Joel Achenbach
Photographs by Richard Barnes

There’s a scene in Stanley Kubrick’s comic masterpiece Dr. Strangelove in which Jack D. Ripper, an American general who’s gone rogue and ordered a nuclear attack on the Soviet Union, unspools his paranoid worldview—and the explanation for why he drinks “only distilled water, or rainwater, and only pure grain alcohol”—to Lionel Mandrake, a dizzy-with-anxiety group captain in the Royal Air Force.

Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? Fluoridation of water?

Mandrake: Ah, yes, I have heard of that, Jack. Yes, yes.

Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?

Mandrake: No. No, I don’t know what it is. No.

Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?

The movie came out in 1964, by which time the health benefits of fluoridation had been thoroughly established, and antifluoridation conspiracy theories could be the stuff of comedy. So you might be surprised to learn that, half a century later, fluoridation continues to incite fear and paranoia. In 2013 citizens in Portland, Oregon, one of only a few major American cities that don’t fluoridate their water, blocked a plan by local officials to do so. Opponents didn’t like the idea of the government adding “chemicals” to their water. They claimed that fluoride could be harmful to human health.

Actually fluoride is a natural mineral that, in the weak concentrations used in public drinking water systems, hardens tooth enamel and prevents tooth decay—a cheap and safe way to improve dental health for everyone, rich or poor, conscientious brusher or not. That’s the scientific and medical consensus.

To which some people in Portland, echoing antifluoridation activists around the world, reply: We don’t believe you.

We live in an age when all manner of scientific knowledge—from the safety of fluoride and vaccines to the reality of climate change—faces organized and often furious opposition. Empowered by their own sources of information and their own interpretations of research, doubters have declared war on the consensus of experts. There are so many of these controversies these days, you’d think a diabolical agency had put something in the water to make people argumentative. And there’s so much talk about the trend these days—in books, articles, and academic conferences—that science doubt itself has become a pop-culture meme. In the recent movie Interstellar, set in a futuristic, downtrodden America where NASA has been forced into hiding, school textbooks say the Apollo moon landings were faked.

In a sense all this is not surprising. Our lives are permeated by science and technology as never before. For many of us this new world is wondrous, comfortable, and rich in rewards—but also more complicated and sometimes unnerving. We now face risks we can’t easily analyze.

We’re asked to accept, for example, that it’s safe to eat food containing genetically modified organisms (GMOs) because, the experts point out, there’s no evidence that it isn’t and no reason to believe that altering genes precisely in a lab is more dangerous than altering them wholesale through traditional breeding. But to some people the very idea of transferring genes between species conjures up mad scientists running amok—and so, two centuries after Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein, they talk about Frankenfood.

The world crackles with real and imaginary hazards, and distinguishing the former from the latter isn’t easy. Should we be afraid that the Ebola virus, which is spread only by direct contact with bodily fluids, will mutate into an airborne superplague? The scientific consensus says that’s extremely unlikely: No virus has ever been observed to completely change its mode of transmission in humans, and there’s zero evidence that the latest strain of Ebola is any different. But type “airborne Ebola” into an Internet search engine, and you’ll enter a dystopia where this virus has almost supernatural powers, including the power to kill us all.

In this bewildering world we have to decide what to believe and how to act on that. In principle that’s what science is for. “Science is not a body of facts,” says geophysicist Marcia McNutt, who once headed the U.S. Geological Survey and is now editor of Science, the prestigious journal. “Science is a method for deciding whether what we choose to believe has a basis in the laws of nature or not.” But that method doesn’t come naturally to most of us. And so we run into trouble, again and again.

The trouble goes way back, of course. The scientific method leads us to truths that are less than self-evident, often mind-blowing, and sometimes hard to swallow. In the early 17th century, when Galileo claimed that the Earth spins on its axis and orbits the sun, he wasn’t just rejecting church doctrine. He was asking people to believe something that defied common sense—because it sure looks like the sun’s going around the Earth, and you can’t feel the Earth spinning. Galileo was put on trial and forced to recant. Two centuries later Charles Darwin escaped that fate. But his idea that all life on Earth evolved from a primordial ancestor and that we humans are distant cousins of apes, whales, and even deep-sea mollusks is still a big ask for a lot of people. So is another 19th-century notion: that carbon dioxide, an invisible gas that we all exhale all the time and that makes up less than a tenth of one percent of the atmosphere, could be affecting Earth’s climate.

Even when we intellectually accept these precepts of science, we subconsciously cling to our intuitions—what researchers call our naive beliefs. A recent study by Andrew Shtulman of Occidental College showed that even students with an advanced science education had a hitch in their mental gait when asked to affirm or deny that humans are descended from sea animals or that Earth goes around the sun. Both truths are counterintuitive. The students, even those who correctly marked “true,” were slower to answer those questions than questions about whether humans are descended from tree-dwelling creatures (also true but easier to grasp) or whether the moon goes around the Earth (also true but intuitive). Shtulman’s research indicates that as we become scientifically literate, we repress our naive beliefs but never eliminate them entirely. They lurk in our brains, chirping at us as we try to make sense of the world.

Most of us do that by relying on personal experience and anecdotes, on stories rather than statistics. We might get a prostate-specific antigen test, even though it’s no longer generally recommended, because it caught a close friend’s cancer—and we pay less attention to statistical evidence, painstakingly compiled through multiple studies, showing that the test rarely saves lives but triggers many unnecessary surgeries. Or we hear about a cluster of cancer cases in a town with a hazardous waste dump, and we assume pollution caused the cancers. Yet just because two things happened together doesn’t mean one caused the other, and just because events are clustered doesn’t mean they’re not still random.

We have trouble digesting randomness; our brains crave pattern and meaning. Science warns us, however, that we can deceive ourselves. To be confident there’s a causal connection between the dump and the cancers, you need statistical analysis showing that there are many more cancers than would be expected randomly, evidence that the victims were exposed to chemicals from the dump, and evidence that the chemicals really can cause cancer.
Picture of a Creationist bookseller setting up shop in Dayton, Tennessee during the Scopes Monkey Trial

Even for scientists, the scientific method is a hard discipline. Like the rest of us, they’re vulnerable to what they call confirmation bias—the tendency to look for and see only evidence that confirms what they already believe. But unlike the rest of us, they submit their ideas to formal peer review before publishing them. Once their results are published, if they’re important enough, other scientists will try to reproduce them—and, being congenitally skeptical and competitive, will be very happy to announce that they don’t hold up. Scientific results are always provisional, susceptible to being overturned by some future experiment or observation. Scientists rarely proclaim an absolute truth or absolute certainty. Uncertainty is inevitable at the frontiers of knowledge.

Sometimes scientists fall short of the ideals of the scientific method. Especially in biomedical research, there’s a disturbing trend toward results that can’t be reproduced outside the lab that found them, a trend that has prompted a push for greater transparency about how experiments are conducted. Francis Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health, worries about the “secret sauce”—specialized procedures, customized software, quirky ingredients—that researchers don’t share with their colleagues. But he still has faith in the larger enterprise.

“Science will find the truth,” Collins says. “It may get it wrong the first time and maybe the second time, but ultimately it will find the truth.” That provisional quality of science is another thing a lot of people have trouble with. To some climate change skeptics, for example, the fact that a few scientists in the 1970s were worried (quite reasonably, it seemed at the time) about the possibility of a coming ice age is enough to discredit the concern about global warming now.

Last fall the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which consists of hundreds of scientists operating under the auspices of the United Nations, released its fifth report in the past 25 years. This one repeated louder and clearer than ever the consensus of the world’s scientists: The planet’s surface temperature has risen by about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit in the past 130 years, and human actions, including the burning of fossil fuels, are extremely likely to have been the dominant cause of the warming since the mid-20th century. Many people in the United States—a far greater percentage than in other countries—retain doubts about that consensus or believe that climate activists are using the threat of global warming to attack the free market and industrial society generally. Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma, one of the most powerful Republican voices on environmental matters, has long declared global warming a hoax.

The idea that hundreds of scientists from all over the world would collaborate on such a vast hoax is laughable—scientists love to debunk one another. It’s very clear, however, that organizations funded in part by the fossil fuel industry have deliberately tried to undermine the public’s understanding of the scientific consensus by promoting a few skeptics.

The news media give abundant attention to such mavericks, naysayers, professional controversialists, and table thumpers. The media would also have you believe that science is full of shocking discoveries made by lone geniuses. Not so. The (boring) truth is that it usually advances incrementally, through the steady accretion of data and insights gathered by many people over many years. So it has been with the consensus on climate change. That’s not about to go poof with the next thermometer reading.

But industry PR, however misleading, isn’t enough to explain why only 40 percent of Americans, according to the most recent poll from the Pew Research Center, accept that human activity is the dominant cause of global warming.

The “science communication problem,” as it’s blandly called by the scientists who study it, has yielded abundant new research into how people decide what to believe—and why they so often don’t accept the scientific consensus. It’s not that they can’t grasp it, according to Dan Kahan of Yale University. In one study he asked 1,540 Americans, a representative sample, to rate the threat of climate change on a scale of zero to ten. Then he correlated that with the subjects’ science literacy. He found that higher literacy was associated with stronger views—at both ends of the spectrum. Science literacy promoted polarization on climate, not consensus. According to Kahan, that’s because people tend to use scientific knowledge to reinforce beliefs that have already been shaped by their worldview.

Americans fall into two basic camps, Kahan says. Those with a more “egalitarian” and “communitarian” mind-set are generally suspicious of industry and apt to think it’s up to something dangerous that calls for government regulation; they’re likely to see the risks of climate change. In contrast, people with a “hierarchical” and “individualistic” mind-set respect leaders of industry and don’t like government interfering in their affairs; they’re apt to reject warnings about climate change, because they know what accepting them could lead to—some kind of tax or regulation to limit emissions.

In the U.S., climate change somehow has become a litmus test that identifies you as belonging to one or the other of these two antagonistic tribes. When we argue about it, Kahan says, we’re actually arguing about who we are, what our crowd is. We’re thinking, People like us believe this. People like that do not believe this. For a hierarchical individualist, Kahan says, it’s not irrational to reject established climate science: Accepting it wouldn’t change the world, but it might get him thrown out of his tribe.

“Take a barber in a rural town in South Carolina,” Kahan has written. “Is it a good idea for him to implore his customers to sign a petition urging Congress to take action on climate change? No. If he does, he will find himself out of a job, just as his former congressman, Bob Inglis, did when he himself proposed such action.”

Science appeals to our rational brain, but our beliefs are motivated largely by emotion, and the biggest motivation is remaining tight with our peers. “We’re all in high school. We’ve never left high school,” says Marcia McNutt. “People still have a need to fit in, and that need to fit in is so strong that local values and local opinions are always trumping science. And they will continue to trump science, especially when there is no clear downside to ignoring science.”

Meanwhile the Internet makes it easier than ever for climate skeptics and doubters of all kinds to find their own information and experts. Gone are the days when a small number of powerful institutions—elite universities, encyclopedias, major news organizations, even National Geographic—served as gatekeepers of scientific information. The Internet has democratized information, which is a good thing. But along with cable TV, it has made it possible to live in a “filter bubble” that lets in only the information with which you already agree.

How to penetrate the bubble? How to convert climate skeptics? Throwing more facts at them doesn’t help. Liz Neeley, who helps train scientists to be better communicators at an organization called Compass, says that people need to hear from believers they can trust, who share their fundamental values. She has personal experience with this. Her father is a climate change skeptic and gets most of his information on the issue from conservative media. In exasperation she finally confronted him: “Do you believe them or me?” She told him she believes the scientists who research climate change and knows many of them personally. “If you think I’m wrong,” she said, “then you’re telling me that you don’t trust me.” Her father’s stance on the issue softened. But it wasn’t the facts that did it.

If you’re a rationalist, there’s something a little dispiriting about all this. In Kahan’s descriptions of how we decide what to believe, what we decide sometimes sounds almost incidental. Those of us in the science-communication business are as tribal as anyone else, he told me. We believe in scientific ideas not because we have truly evaluated all the evidence but because we feel an affinity for the scientific community. When I mentioned to Kahan that I fully accept evolution, he said, “Believing in evolution is just a description about you. It’s not an account of how you reason.”

Maybe—except that evolution actually happened. Biology is incomprehensible without it. There aren’t really two sides to all these issues. Climate change is happening. Vaccines really do save lives. Being right does matter—and the science tribe has a long track record of getting things right in the end. Modern society is built on things it got right.

Doubting science also has consequences. The people who believe vaccines cause autism—often well educated and affluent, by the way—are undermining “herd immunity” to such diseases as whooping cough and measles. The anti-vaccine movement has been going strong since the prestigious British medical journal the Lancet published a study in 1998 linking a common vaccine to autism. The journal later retracted the study, which was thoroughly discredited. But the notion of a vaccine-autism connection has been endorsed by celebrities and reinforced through the usual Internet filters. (Anti-vaccine activist and actress Jenny McCarthy famously said on the Oprah Winfrey Show, “The University of Google is where I got my degree from.”)

In the climate debate the consequences of doubt are likely global and enduring. In the U.S., climate change skeptics have achieved their fundamental goal of halting legislative action to combat global warming. They haven’t had to win the debate on the merits; they’ve merely had to fog the room enough to keep laws governing greenhouse gas emissions from being enacted.

Some environmental activists want scientists to emerge from their ivory towers and get more involved in the policy battles. Any scientist going that route needs to do so carefully, says Liz Neeley. “That line between science communication and advocacy is very hard to step back from,” she says. In the debate over climate change the central allegation of the skeptics is that the science saying it’s real and a serious threat is politically tinged, driven by environmental activism and not hard data. That’s not true, and it slanders honest scientists. But it becomes more likely to be seen as plausible if scientists go beyond their professional expertise and begin advocating specific policies.

It’s their very detachment, what you might call the cold-bloodedness of science, that makes science the killer app. It’s the way science tells us the truth rather than what we’d like the truth to be. Scientists can be as dogmatic as anyone else—but their dogma is always wilting in the hot glare of new research. In science it’s not a sin to change your mind when the evidence demands it. For some people, the tribe is more important than the truth; for the best scientists, the truth is more important than the tribe.

Scientific thinking has to be taught, and sometimes it’s not taught well, McNutt says. Students come away thinking of science as a collection of facts, not a method. Shtulman’s research has shown that even many college students don’t really understand what evidence is. The scientific method doesn’t come naturally—but if you think about it, neither does democracy. For most of human history neither existed. We went around killing each other to get on a throne, praying to a rain god, and for better and much worse, doing things pretty much as our ancestors did.

Now we have incredibly rapid change, and it’s scary sometimes. It’s not all progress. Our science has made us the dominant organisms, with all due respect to ants and blue-green algae, and we’re changing the whole planet. Of course we’re right to ask questions about some of the things science and technology allow us to do. “Everybody should be questioning,” says McNutt. “That’s a hallmark of a scientist. But then they should use the scientific method, or trust people using the scientific method, to decide which way they fall on those questions.” We need to get a lot better at finding answers, because it’s certain the questions won’t be getting any simpler.

FraserB
02-09-2015, 09:56 PM
Unfortunately the internet allows nutbags access to a large and gulible group of people who will believe everything “they read in a book”, even if its from some place like NN.

codetrap
02-09-2015, 10:20 PM
Thread title might as well be, "Why are so many people stupid and gullible?"

msommers
02-09-2015, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by codetrap
Thread title might as well be, "Why are so many people stupid and gullible?"

Haha you obviously didn't read the article.

Thales of Miletus
02-09-2015, 10:51 PM
I think one of the problems is that Government lacks moral authority and cannot be trusted.

These leads people to distrust everything.

Corporations know how to use people's distrust, paranoia and lack of education, and thus turn them into water carriers.

msommers
02-09-2015, 11:01 PM
According to Kahan, you're egalitarian

Thales of Miletus
02-10-2015, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by msommers
According to Kahan, you're egalitarian

Once upon a time.

But in reality, humanity has too many different sub species which fight against the common good.

Lack of intelligent diminishes the size of the community that a smarter person would care about.

Lack of empathy victimizes those who are weak.

Lack of common sense, keeps the victims victimized, and those who lack empathy empowered.

Philosophers have been pointing out the folly of humanity for eons. But they have never considered that you cannot change the nature of humanity, without altering the components of humanity.

In other words, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him give a shit.

rage2
02-10-2015, 08:52 AM
Here is an excellent read on the subject matter (at least from my perspective) that tries to answer your question.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/109880240641/sciences-biggest-fail

msommers
02-10-2015, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by rage2
Here is an excellent read on the subject matter (at least from my perspective) that tries to answer your question.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/109880240641/sciences-biggest-fail

I can certainly appreciate this point of view because I've actually raised this very point to friends when talking about this very subject, so I definitely get it. People at the end of the day want to know what affects them directly.

An issue that I have with things like "science of dieting" for example is that the public wants the best without doing any work. What do I mean by that? Well if we never knew what was really good for us and what was bad for us, how are Olympians for so many decades in such good shape, meanwhile Joe-Blow public eats eggs too and doesn't look like that? How much research has gone into human performance with positive results? One thing I don't think enough people can appreciate or even want to hear, is that your genetics play a massive role and it's something, as of right now, that is out of your control. Two people can eat the exact same and mirror one another's physical activities for their entire lives but I'm willing to bet one lives longer despite it.

I've been in a couple running studies now and one I was just finishing up yesterday had to do with soles in your shoes, and if different soles made your muscles more efficient or not by measuring voltage (or so I understand). What I learned is that at the end of the day, sorry for the bad pun, no one shoes fits all. Everyone is different and that is really hard to design for.

But while on the topic of health specifically, there is one major aspect that should stimulate pattern recognition and yet there was/is(?) a major backlash: vaccines. The proof is in the pudding by pretty much everyone around us at this very moment. Why does the public put as much value on celebrity input as they do on people who dedicate their lives to one very specific thing? This is like me being a giant loudmouth and saying Rage2 doesn't know how to improve IT operations, meanwhile he's been doing it flawlessly for the last 50 years, but suddenly the public is concerned? I just don't understand how the general public looks at stuff like this, completely ignores evidence that is right in their face with a track record to boot, and don't even realize the statistics behind the claims they're fighting against! I guess the loudest person is right, or so it seems.

Back to health and fitness, it does make me wonder how much bro-science is out there and how long its been going on for. And while "Science" may be improving on diet-related fronts, dealing with dynamic subject, look at all the other subsets of science that have greatly improved our lives. How many can we name?

I really like Dilbert actually, the writer is quite brilliant. But the analogy is like this: if Rage2 made a claim about a specification on a car, what would happen here? Well if Rage2 retracted that statement 5 years later and said something else instead, how would the population feel? In a time when Rage2 is 99% right about specifications on cars, would you be bothered that he is wrong sometimes? Or would you understand that things are constantly improving instead of hanging onto the past? You know how many people still believe baldness comes from your mother's side, and I should look at my uncle for reference?!

One aspect of the general public, that is a blanket statement but I'm going to say it anyways, is: people don't appreciate what they don't understand, and people aren't willing to read something to completion (I honestly wonder how many people are going to fully read the article at the top of this very thread because I don't think anyone truthfully has who's replied). Relaying and making this information accessible, and understandable, is one thing that "science" does need to work on, because the media does a piss poor job of doing it, which ultimately puts "science" to blame when plenty of caveats in a research paper could say otherwise.

Media: Latest study shows that eggs should be consumed at least twice a day!
Research Paper: Consuming eggs twice a day has led to improved muscle tone in 60% of participants. Further study is required with a larger sample size.

FixedGear
02-10-2015, 11:22 AM
it's because most people don't understand it.

i think Obama put it best in his last state of the union, something like this (i'm paraphrasing):

"I'm not a scientist, but I know a lot of really good ones." That's really the only sensible view for a non-scientist IMO, and non-scientists should trust scientists to do their job properly.



as i've said a million times before on these forums, people shouldn't even have an opinion about science until they've put in the decade-plus of work it requires to understand the current state of knowledge.

most people I know don't complain about how Google's search algorithms work, or question the methods by which google matches street view photos to street addresses. or argue with their plumber or baker or school bus driver or whatever. :dunno:

ExtraSlow
02-10-2015, 12:01 PM
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/podcamp2014sales-140123071818-phpapp02/95/10-sales-tips-for-people-who-think-they-hate-selling-16-638.jpg

ZenOps
02-10-2015, 02:05 PM
A lot of people base fact on what they can see. Even at that, it might be a bit of a stretch.

Heres a little tidbit of information: In Calgary, CBC made its first black and white Television broadcast on Sept 1, 1975. What does that mean for a moon landing in 1969? You guessed it - the vast majority of Sask/Albertans did not see the man on the moon landing as a live event. BC being coastal had TV broadasts before Alberta, but the first Broadcast of CBC in Canada was 1952.

I didn't catch the birth of Jeebus as a live event either, I guess one would just have to take it on faith. Since I didn't see the moon landing live, is everyone just taking it "on faith"?

01RedDX
02-10-2015, 02:10 PM
.

ZenOps
02-10-2015, 02:16 PM
And a side note about the "God particle" accelerator.

Whos to say that they didn't magenetically capture an angel and a demon and are spinning them around in that particle accelerator - with the ultimate goal of the destruction of the universe.

According to Tibetan monks, angels travel clockwise - demons travel counterclockwise.

ZenOps
02-10-2015, 02:40 PM
http://www.broadcasting-history.ca/index3.html?url=http%3A//www.broadcasting-history.ca/listings_and_histories/television/histories.php%3Fid%3D35%26historyID%3D22

Seriously, im not kidding.

Alberta in general got experimental Black and white television in 1974. It officially launched (at a reasonable 178,000 watts adequate enough to be recieved by consumer level televisions) on Sept 1 1975.

If you were somehow in Alberta, and remember watching the moon landing - it was probably a day after, when they drove out the magnetic tape delivery and supposedly had special TV's setup for the public to watch what was basically, a VCR recording.

The first geostationary (fixed dish) for commerical use TV satellite for planet earth, was launched in 1972, Anik 1 (A proudly Canadian first)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communications_satellite_firsts

BTW: This year will be the 40th anniversary of the first Commercial TV broadcast in Alberta.

01RedDX
02-10-2015, 02:44 PM
.

ZenOps
02-10-2015, 02:55 PM
Noone had a microwave TV.

It was only for station to station, and the last leg to the BC coast, material was actually trucked out on magnetic tape because of terrain.

Commercial broadcast, recieveable by the 1% of the population that could afford UHF/VHF black and white TV was absolutely mid-1970's.

rage2
02-10-2015, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by ZenOps
Seriously, im not kidding.

Alberta in general got experimental Black and white television in 1974. It officially launched (at a reasonable 178,000 watts adequate enough to be recieved by consumer level televisions) on Sept 1 1975.

If you were somehow in Alberta, and remember watching the moon landing - it was probably a day after, when they drove out the magnetic tape delivery and supposedly had special TV's setup for the public to watch what was basically, a VCR recording.
Well, they definitely watched it live in Calgary. At home, on TV's in Hotels, even the Toronto Argonaunts visiting for a football game were watching it with some TV's hauled into the Palliser.

As reported in the Calgary Herald:

https://postmediacalgaryherald2.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/calgary-moonlanding.png

ZenOps
02-10-2015, 04:04 PM
If you watched it here, probably a one day old recording.

CFCN was actually around before CBC (or so I hear) but they did not publically broadcast or retransmit at a wattage high enough for 90% of calgary to use (or so the rumor goes) Its one of the cases of capitalism slightly oupacing government, or the CBC. CFCN however, did not have access to CBC's national relay station network. CFCN only did live local programming.

The tower was there at the time, so I can imagine someone *might* have pushed out a very weak signal in 1969. But no doubt it would be several years later before you would get half a days programming on three channels.

Its definitely a ? though as to the source of any TV feeds before 1972 or so. Any now retiring Shaw guy will probably have a contentious debate as to whether or not a live stream was broadcast in Alberta or Sask. BC almost assuredly would have had live local programming, but the moon landing would have come over the mountains or from the US border on tape. Mind you, airplanes would have been used for something as epic as the moon landing (and probably only a two hour delay for transport)

Call me oldfashioned, but if it comes on tape - its hardly more than a glorified VCR movie.

PS: I can vaguely remember the 30 meter satellite dishes of the late 1970's... only one word to say - Ginormous. Eventually they got around to 9 foot dishes.

codetrap
02-10-2015, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by msommers
Haha you obviously didn't read the article. That's because I'm both gullible and stupid. :)

01RedDX
02-10-2015, 04:19 PM
.

rage2
02-10-2015, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by ZenOps
If you watched it here, probably a one day old recording.
You obviously didn't read the Calgary Herald article I posted.

It says everyone watched it on Sunday night, when the moon landing happened. It couldn't have been a day later, because the Argonauts were busy playing football on Monday night.

So off topic lol.

Sugarphreak
02-10-2015, 04:37 PM
...

01RedDX
02-10-2015, 04:45 PM
.

HiTempguy1
02-10-2015, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by FixedGear
That's really the only sensible view for a non-scientist IMO, and non-scientists should trust scientists to do their job properly.


I work with more scientists and researchers than you can shake a stick at.

Most suffer from NOT following scientific protocol. They have agenda's, and are influenced by outside forces.

Do not kid yourself, non-scientists have EVERY right to NOT trust scientists. And as the dilbert article put it so eloquently, that is the way it should be.

Do you ever comment on politics? Do you ever complain or arm-chair quarterback the government? Why should YOU think you are better than the politicians?

You could literally do this sort of mental gymnastics with anything. Just because someone is not an "exspurt" in something does not mean that their experiences and knowledge can not contribute to it. It simply means they are less likely to do so aka you should be sceptical of EVERYONE.

Thales of Miletus
02-10-2015, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by HiTempguy1


I work with more agenda's, and are influenced by outside forces.

Do not trust dilbert, that is the way it should be.

Do you ever comment on arm-chair quarterbacks?

You could literally do gymnastics..

Is the above your scientific opinion?

I don't know whether I should trust it or not. What is your trust rating on Ebay?

HiTempguy1
02-10-2015, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Thales of Miletus


Is the above your scientific opinion?

I don't know whether I should trust it or not. What is your trust rating on Ebay?

You are helping me prove my point of course. Why trust me? I'm just some guy on the interwebs having a debate ;)

msommers
02-11-2015, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Most suffer from NOT following scientific protocol. They have agenda's, and are influenced by outside forces.

If that was the case then, it makes me wonder why you keep using these people. I just have no idea how essentially fudging a conclusion would be beneficial to you (or your company).

And hey, some people are morally corrupt. Like researchers working for tobacco companies saying that it's really not that bad for you. Or companies helping their company?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470496/

Not every scientist is out for industry funding. Remember how we ended up with unleaded fuel and latex paint?

Thales of Miletus
02-11-2015, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by HiTempguy1


You are helping me prove my point of course. Why trust me? I'm just some guy on the interwebs having a debate ;)
People are still relatively free until their education is corrupted.

That is happening in the USA and is probably why hate propaganda gets such high ratings in that nation.

Most Canadians have a good enough education, that they can understand for themselves, what a greenhouse gas is and how increasing those gases increases the energy stored in the ecosystem.

To convince an American that Climate Change is a Hoax, you mention that it was hot when dinosaurs were around, or that it snows in the winter, or Intelligent Design.

Arash Boodagh
02-11-2015, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by msommers
...........

But while on the topic of health specifically, there is one major aspect that should stimulate pattern recognition and yet there was/is(?) a major backlash: vaccines. The proof is in the pudding by pretty much everyone around us at this very moment. Why does the public put as much value on celebrity input as they do on people who dedicate their lives to one very specific thing? This is like me being a giant loudmouth and saying Rage2 doesn't know how to improve IT operations, meanwhile he's been doing it flawlessly for the last 50 years, but suddenly the public is concerned? I just don't understand how the general public looks at stuff like this, completely ignores evidence that is right in their face with a track record to boot, and don't even realize the statistics behind the claims they're fighting against! I guess the loudest person is right, or so it seems.

....... I barely skimmed the thread... but have to call you out on ignoring science and my post when you felt it didnt fit your emotional views.

msommers did you research about that Hep B shot for infants yet? I see youre still defending the state yet cant answer a simple question.
Do you think you're a credible person for us to take vaccine advice from when you keep dodging a question that you know will ruin all that you have wrote here?http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/arash-cant-read/showthread.php?threadid=385813&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=4

FixedGear
02-11-2015, 02:22 AM
agenda's :rofl:

Thales of Miletus
02-11-2015, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
I barely skimmed the thread... but have to call you out on ignoring science and my post when you felt it didnt fit your emotional views.


If Ebola was airborne, would you get the vaccine tomorrow?

How about if Small pox made a return? Polio?

People who point to the exception, then call it the rule, are as blind as those who listen to FOX news.

Arash Boodagh
02-11-2015, 04:20 AM
Oh so you're pro government vaccination program?
As is the FOX news that you mock...
Mercury is good for children - US Mainstream Media Report (FOX news)
youtube.com/watch?v=kyR2XeLjYTU

Tell me Thales of Miletus, why does the Canadian and U.S. government try to give all infants the Hep B vaccine?

Darell_n
02-11-2015, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Arash Boodagh

Tell me Thales of Miletus, why does the Canadian and U.S. government try to give all infants the Hep B vaccine?

They don't, that's why. Hep B is first offered in Grade 5, not for infants as your conspiracy friends likely told you.

Arash Boodagh
02-11-2015, 05:21 AM
Not in all of the U.S. or in my province, British Columbia... Alberta will follow suit and police will put any protesters in their place.



"Hepatitis B shots should be offered for infants in all Canadian provinces and other countries, say researchers who reviewed evidence on immunization."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/expand-hepatitis-b-vaccination-for-all-canadian-infants-study-1.860818



"Start hepatitis B shots with infants, MD says

Alberta and other provinces should consider changing their hepatitis-B vaccination program to deliver the shots to infants instead of school-age children, say McMaster University researchers."
http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=7f52358e-31a3-442b-a386-f29c3539a6e8

ZenOps
02-11-2015, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by 01RedDX


You're talking to a guy who thinks you need a microwave TV to receive signals from Canada's microwave network. :rofl:

But on topic in the sense that he's a good example of a person who doubts or misunderstands scientific facts for irrational reasons.

No, im saying you need a UHF/VHF tower running at about 100,000 watts analog to recieve TV signals. Calgary supposedly had CFCN before year 1975, but it was *not* hooked up to a national network, and could not have recieved a live feed from CBC. Even back then, networks did not share programming (one station got certain NHL games, other stations got TV series that they paid for)

Yes, CFCN probably got a tape from the CBC relay post that day - but it was probably not live. And it most definitely was restricted to those within range of the broadcast tower at the time, which means probably downtown Calgary and anybody within 5 miles of the CFCN's tower. Which could mean as little as 10,000 people in Calgary watched the moon landing that particular day (even though they think they watched it live, the last leg was still probably relayed through CBC to CFCN as a tape) Again, the VAST majority of Albertans did not see the moon landing as a live event, technically, noone did other than the guy who relayed the tape from the CBC microwave reception station passed off to the CFCN tower for commercial broadcast.

Some even say that Shaw cable was concieved on that day, when the realized it was stupid to have a guy in a truck delivering tapes, when they could just run a coaxial cable between stations.

Off topic: CBC did the digital transition for Calgary in 2011.

"On August 17, 2012 the CRTC approved the CBC's application to change the authorized contours of CBRT-DT, by increasing the average effective radiated power from 11,800 to 253,500 watts (maximum ERP from 23,500 to 507,000 watts and an increase in the antenna's effective height of antenna above average terrain from 276.3 to 350.8 metres). The CBC requested the change in order to provide CBRT-DT's programming to a larger audience in the Calgary area."

There was a whole period of about a year during 2011 where they were broadcasting at 11,800 watts on a "low tower height", which effectively only covered about 50% of Calgary with an "acceptable" indoor signal. With the increased antenna height and greatly increased wattage, probably more like 85% of Calgary can get the 720p digital CBC without resorting to extreme (outdoor roof) measures. If you live in a valley in Calgary however, you probably didn't get a UHF/VHF TV signal back in 1975, and you still wont in 2015.

Believe what you want, but if you ignore things they will never change. In Toronto, you can probably catch about 24 high definition digital channels with a little bit of luck. Why do media companies hate OTA UHF/VHF and never talk about it? Because its free.

Money trumps reality, reality trumps both science and religion.

ZenOps
02-11-2015, 07:14 AM
As a realist:

When I go outside, the sun is shining an its warmer than I remember in the past.

Money trumps reality:

Someone is going to pay me to install an airconditioner.

The big picture:

I really don't care if its carbon emissions, or god farting. Both science and religion don't even factor in to me enjoying the nice warm day.

Obama hates people like that. The moon landing is seen by many as a triumph of science, I see it as a triumph of money over reality (science isn't really a factor)

Nitro5
02-11-2015, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

People are still relatively free until their education is corrupted.

That is happening in the USA and is probably why hate propaganda gets such high ratings in that nation.

Most Canadians have a good enough education, that they can understand for themselves, what a greenhouse gas is and how increasing those gases increases the energy stored in the ecosystem.

To convince an American that Climate Change is a Hoax, you mention that it was hot when dinosaurs were around, or that it snows in the winter, or Intelligent Design.

How do you explain your agenda against Americans? You seem to have no issue with pigeonholing 300+ million people.

BigMass
02-11-2015, 10:00 AM
you can get into a real shitstorm of a philosophical discussion about science, truth, logic and the validity of our own ability to reason. Scientific theories are ever evolving. There is no doubt that in a hundred years our understanding of nature will include radically different theories than what we have constructed today. Theories like the Big Bang are already on their way out as they have been modified, adjusted and added to so often they barely resemble what they started out as. Let's be serious, most people have no idea of the science behind the things they believe. Societal views on almost every scientific issue of the 21st century is based on logical fallacies such as appeal to authority and appeal to majority. I think some of you would be shocked on how consensus amongst the scientific community is reached on certain issues and how uncertain things really are. This in turn develops into dogma among the general public in the same way religious people hold a lot of their views. So I would argue that as a method, there is no reason to doubt science, but there is good reason to doubt most scientific theories as our understanding of the natural world is still at it's infancy.

FixedGear
02-11-2015, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by BigMass
there is no reason to doubt science, but there is good reason to doubt most scientific theories as our understanding of the natural world is still at it's infancy.

fair enough, but no one can deny that literally everything we have and do is a product of science.

BigMass
02-11-2015, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by FixedGear


fair enough, but no one can deny that literally everything we have and do is a product of science.

science is littered with axioms and presuppositions, logic and mathematical truths that cannot be explained by the scientific method as doing so would be arguing in a circle. Our day to day lives are permeated with oughts that have no way of being justified from scientific "is" statements. Metaphysical truths about our very existence are in no way accessible by science. In fact our very ability to reason at the most very basic levels of reductionism hinges on deriving rationality from irrationality leading to a state of absurdity. There are a lot of limits to what science can tell us, that is why we must not be dogmatic about it.

FixedGear
02-11-2015, 01:13 PM
:rofl:

good example of why philosophers don't put rovers on mars.

BigMass
02-11-2015, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by FixedGear
:rofl:

good example of why philosophers don't put rovers on mars.

I beg to differ. Theoretical physics and modern cosmology are making constant advancements through philosophy. It's a package that goes hand in hand, it's not one or the other. Physics, mathematics and the technology they produce have their most basic foundation rooted in philosophy.

HuMz
02-11-2015, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by FixedGear


fair enough, but no one can deny that literally everything we have and do is a product of science.

Very little of our decision making and day to day lives has anything to do with science though. Majority of our lives and choices deal with choices that we believe to be true beyond a reasonable doubt.

The scientific method that we use to prove something true doesn't apply to anything metaphysical like big mass said. Therefore to trust scientists as the only bearer of truth when there making metaphysical statements isn't logical.

CapnCrunch
02-11-2015, 01:52 PM
I don't think reasonable people doubt science, but many reasonable people doubt 'new' science.

If you look back in time at some of the stupidity of our past scientific theories, why shouldn't people be sceptical of new scientific breakthroughs? 100 years from now people will look back at our "science" and think we we're a bunch of neanderthals.

themack89
02-11-2015, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by HuMz
The scientific method that we use to prove something true doesn't apply to anything metaphysical like big mass said. Therefore to trust scientists as the only bearer of truth when there making metaphysical statements isn't logical.

The scientific method isn't used to prove something 'true', it is a technique to determine whether a prediction is supported by accompanying empirical evidence.

Just like statistical testing, science never really proves anything. It's just a process of gathering data and inferring a consistent and reliable outcome. Ultimately it's a "best guess" because we never have full information sets.

01RedDX
02-11-2015, 02:48 PM
.

lasimmon
02-11-2015, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by 01RedDX


I'm just curious as to why you'd think that. I am pretty sure that among the most prominent cosmologists, who may disagree on some things, the Big Bang is actually the one thing they are certain of. We even have solid empirical proof now of both its state and age, in the form of the Higgs Boson particle and CMB observations.

I also noticed a couple of contradictions you made, e.g. you are correct in that science is "ever evolving" but that proves that science itself cannot a "dogmatic" construct; those who are being dogmatic about science, do not understand science. You then referenced absurdism and "metaphysical truths," even though, by its very definition, absurdism does not recognize the existence of any "metaphysical truths" as a certainty.

Personally, I love the ideas of fine-tuned universes and multiverses etc., I just have a problem with any kind of "god-in-the-gaps" reasoning. Why can't the unlikely existence of sentient life just be celebrated for what it is? Why does there always have to be a reason?

Anyway, finally, it's getting interesting!

Saw this a couple days ago:

Article Title: No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html

01RedDX
02-11-2015, 03:25 PM
.

Freedom69
02-11-2015, 03:38 PM
Thanks OP for posting a very interesting read.

It's also been entertaining to read the most opinionated posts coming from people that either didn't read the entire article or didn't understand it. Too each their own though once again I guess...

lasimmon
02-11-2015, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by 01RedDX


I said most prominent cosmologists. :rofl: Read it again: their model explicitly rejects singularities by simply removing them from the calculations and substituting completely theoretical particles.
That's what is great about science though, new equations and theories arise every single day, and are thoroughly reviewed before being dismissed; I have a strong feeling this one will be soon, if it hasn't been already.

I don't really understand a lot of that stuff but I was meaning more of what you just said "That's what is great about science though, new equations and theories arise every single day" by posting that article which I saw in passing a couple days ago.

I find that part of science fascinating.

Seth1968
02-11-2015, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Because the majority of journalists/bloggers/activists pick and choose over only the facts that support a certain view or agenda, and then expect the public to follow along like a herd of sheep.

You can't take anything at face value, naturally people are skeptical and given the nonsense we look back at and laugh at. I don't think that is a bad thing.

Go back to the 60's when doctors recommended smoking as a healthy way to relax, or in the 70's when environmentalists were claiming by the year 2000 we would be in the midst of a full on world ending ice age due to pollution, or the 80's when kids were told if they smoke weed they would have homicidal thoughts, of the 90's when the war on salmon farming was led by Dr. Alexandra Morton... who wasn't even a real doctor and was apparently living in a van by the river. To this day people still think salmon farming is bad for invalid reasons, it is disgusting people can't think for themselves.

Look at this thread as an example:
http://forums.beyond.ca/st/373282/excessive-force-in-camrose-/

First post is laying out what happened like facts... evidence is presented in the form of a picture of a woman that has been injured, charges that are being laid, and quotes from people around. I was skeptical despite all of this, and as it turns out, it served me well.


IMO biased and sensationalized media and morally corrupt activists are to blame. I am sorry all the legit scientists out there get butt hurt about it as it really has nothing to do with them.

I can profoundly add to all of that, but whatever. My love of science has become skewed to succumb to vested interest and money.

As a child, I consumed every, " The how and wonder books)". The scientific series told the empirical truth.

Thing is, OP has a hidden agenda that's based in bias and emotional statements.

msommers
02-12-2015, 12:46 AM
Seth, you were, or still are, on the anti-vacc side. Nuff said lol

The hilarious thing is that if you read the article it talks about both sides. That's the most hilarious thing about the responses. Read the thread title, bam in comes their 2 cents LOL

Thales of Miletus
02-12-2015, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Nitro5


How do you explain your agenda against Americans? You seem to have no issue with pigeonholing 300+ million people.

They are an evil plutocracy.

They do not have the freedom of elections.

They do not have the right to truth in media.

Thales of Miletus
02-12-2015, 03:04 AM
I have re-thought the anti-vaxxer movement.

I am all for their decision not to vaccinate.

Nothing will thin the herd of stupid any faster.

Sugarphreak
02-12-2015, 08:40 AM
...

Nitro5
02-12-2015, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Thales of Miletus


They are an evil plutocracy.

They do not have the freedom of elections.

They do not have the right to truth in media.

I cannot compete with your genius.

CapnCrunch
02-12-2015, 09:51 AM
This seems relevant to the discussion.

http://i.imgur.com/kokeoJN.png

BananaFob
02-12-2015, 10:21 AM
Since we're on the topic of the Big Bang, I think it's interesting to note that the idea first started with a Catholic Priest:
http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rfl/web/essaybooks/cosmic/p_lemaitre.html

theken
02-12-2015, 01:46 PM
his idea of the big bang still probably included god making that happen though

msommers
02-12-2015, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Still, you were the one who presented the article with a bias title... just solidifies my point on the subject, that you can't take anything for face value as it usually gets misrepresented.

And this solidifies the point that the general public doesn't care about the reading actual science, or even an article about science but still feel the need to comment about a headline. It's like people see something that's longer than 100 words and get intimidated or bored immediately. No wonder Calgary Herald is at a grade 6 reading level.

It's not a research paper, even less people would read it then. But it brought up reasonable points about both sides' point of views that I'd never thought of and shared it. National Geographic is in favour of showcasing their findings, shocking I know.

And honestly Nick, what was your thread title about real estate? "FALLing house prices" on October 22? ;)

Sugarphreak
02-12-2015, 02:20 PM
...

msommers
02-12-2015, 02:22 PM
That's honest, so thank you :)

Well I see I should have quoted you instead :rofl:

BananaFob
02-12-2015, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by theken
his idea of the big bang still probably included god making that happen though

... you didn't read the article did you?