Alberta better off joining United States as 51st state

[Manhattan]

This guy is kinda nuts but some interesting ideas and points.


Western separatism is an old theme in Alberta, but Peter Zeihan is bringing it back into the spotlight.

Zeihan's new book is mostly about the United States and its place in the world, but he's dedicated an entire chapter to Alberta.

It's there that he lays out the economic case for why Wild Rose Country should bid farewell to Confederation and join the United States.

"Alberta as a U.S. state would not simply be rich — the richest in the Union, in fact — but would have a vibrantly well-financed and diverse economy that would put its former (and a lot of its new-found) countrymen to shame," writes the American author in The Accidental Superpower.

He argues that demographics are another reason why Alberta should jump ship."Alberta produces more energy than the rest of Canada put together, their primary export market is the United States and a merger would eliminate everything from tax liabilities to foreign currency fluctuations," said Zeihan.

Zeihan says the province is a lot younger than the rest of Canada and as a wave of baby boomers starts to retire, the rest of the country will become increasingly dependent on Alberta.

"As the price of that retiree bulge rises, and it's already pushing the Canadian budget to the limit, there is really only one place that Canadians can tax to fund their retiree system that they have promised their citizens. And that is Alberta," said Zeihan.

Zeihan says if Alberta ever did choose to go out on its own, he suspects Canada's second richest province — Saskatchewan — would follow.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/peter-zeihan-says-alberta-would-be-better-off-as-51st-u-s-state-1.2998453

[BigMass]

jesus fuck no. With their idiotic foreign and economic policies, completely broken medical insurance system and fascist tax regime that effectively "owns" it's citizens no matter where in the universe they live, i'll be the first to move out of Alberta if that ever happens.

[ExtraSlow]

On an economic basis, it makes quite a bit of sense. He's not wrong about the future costs of all those retirees, it's going to be a huge burden.

Culturally and politically, I just don't see this ever getting sufficient support. We may be the most american province, but we are still very different than the "average" american.

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
but we are still very different than the "average" american.

I've lived for many years in both countries, and IMO americans and canadians are exceptionally similar, and there are definitely larger differences within each than between the two as a whole - and these similarities are further accentuated when traveling abroad. :dunno:

[FixedGear]

Edit: and for the record, the members of this forum are far more conservative than any americans in my circles.... 'just saying.

[Tik-Tok]

Then Americans could finally bring their guns up here during Stampede, for when us threatening Canucks ask them if they're enjoying their time, they can open fire!

[suntan]

15% tax on cap gains and dividend income.

When do we move?

[Thales of Miletus]

Alberta needs to claim more of the share of the profit from U.S. interests and then invest that money in the communities. I do not look at the U.S. as a county which like to invest in social infrastructure.

American style, unrestrained capitalism, has led us to where we are today. So I don't think more of the same would be very good for the average citizen. All joining America would do, would be to introduce the same sort of income disparity that you find in that country.

Politically, Albertans would fit in with Texans, but that isn't a good thing either.

[Manhattan]

Should have made this thing a poll into stay or join.

[Manhattan]

Originally posted by suntan
15% tax on cap gains and dividend income.

When do we move?

50% taxable on cap gains at your marginal tax rate. Not much difference. :dunno:

[CapnCrunch]

NO WAY IN HELL!

[M.alex]

As long as Albertans could exchange our worthless Canadian currency 1-1 if we joined I would be all for it.

Old school Alberta is more like Texas anyways - guns, oil and strippers all the way.

[kertejud2]

Well if there's a country that doesn't have a retiree bulge on the horizon or disparity among net donors and receivers of federal $, it is the US. :rolleyes:

[adam c]

I'm split, part of me would like to be part of the US just for everything that's available that Canada gets the shaft on

The other part looks at things like their health care system, drug cartels and debt and makes me want to run

[ercchry]

the population growth if we joined the states would be alarming... since it would be like all the assholes from out east that come here for work, but worse... way worse... then with that, and no border to cross we'd get some serious gang problems...

[tirebob]

After seeing my wife's parents almost go bankrupt twice dealing with cancer, all while they were paying almost 4k per month in health insurance, that alone makes me say FUUUUUUCK THAT!!!

[Ca_Silvia13]

If AB becomes American do we get cheaper shipping on car parts? Because i'd be all over that :burnout:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Thales of Miletus]

Originally posted by tirebob
After seeing my wife's parents almost go bankrupt twice dealing with cancer, all while they were paying almost 4k per month in health insurance, that alone makes me say FUUUUUUCK THAT!!!

No Kidding.

Why wouldn't Alberta model itself after a place that has a high happiness index instead of a high capitalism index?

Calgary is now considered the third most prosperous city in the world. Why join America?

[spikerS]

Originally posted by ercchry
the population growth if we joined the states would be alarming... since it would be like all the assholes from out east that come here for work, but worse... way worse... then with that, and no border to cross we'd get some serious gang problems...

This.


Originally posted by tirebob
After seeing my wife's parents almost go bankrupt twice dealing with cancer, all while they were paying almost 4k per month in health insurance, that alone makes me say FUUUUUUCK THAT!!!

And THIS!

The only good things I could think of for me is american netflix, castle laws, and finally being included in free shipping anywhere in the USA.

If Alberta tried to join the USA, I would be moving pretty quick out of here. I am Canadian, and proud of that heritage.

[MGCM]

I will burn Canada to the ground if they ever join those faggots:banghead:

[suntan]

Yeah but you have a tank in your garage! And it's A-OK!

[Feruk]

Originally posted by FixedGear
Edit: and for the record, the members of this forum are far more conservative than any Americans in my circles.... 'just saying.
But at least people here are far less religious. Here only the dumber, older, or more foreign of people still actively practice that hocus pocus. Down there it seems to be far more prevalent. That's on top of the fucked up politics, foreign policy, health policy, drug policy, and gun policy. Don't get me wrong, I really like visiting and in general have a great opinion of the USA when I'm there, but I would never wanna live there. Except maybe in Hawaii... those guys seem pretty chill.

[ZenOps]

Tallest man in a room full of pygmies?

Currently, Texas has quite a bit of oil riches. Many Texans desperately want to break away seceed from the US so that they can charge what oil really costs to bring to market.

Join the US? Probably a dumb idea. Stay with Canada? Also probably a dumb idea.

Go it alone? Now theres an idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements

[btimbit]

Economically sure. Cultural and politically? Fuuuuuuuuck that

[sputnik]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Join the US? Probably a dumb idea. Stay with Canada? Also probably a dumb idea.

Go it alone? Now theres an idea.


I would love to see the province try to defend its northern borders.

My guess is that within weeks the US and/or Canada would invade and take control.

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by sputnik


I would love to see the province try to defend its northern borders.

My guess is that within weeks the US and/or Canada would invade and take control.

How about Texas and Alberta form an economic union. Then we could share cattle too.

[ExtraSlow]

Throw in Montana, Wyoming and Colorado and New Mexico while you are at it. We'd have everything we need, all in one long strip of land.

[theken]

the BC AB SK country would be top shelf.

[adam c]

Originally posted by theken
the BC AB SK country would be top shelf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_%28independence_movement%29

There's also the option of Alberta to join

[theken]

too much would have to happen for that to work out, no way US lets go of Washington haha.

[g-m]

Originally posted by spikerS



If Alberta tried to join the USA, I would be moving pretty quick out of here. I am Canadian, and proud of that heritage. Yea this. I'm even proud of the damn Quebecers begrudgingly. We have it pretty good already.

[CanmoreOrLess]

We have the NA fresh water, the USA can go pound sand, as can marginal writers on geo-poli topics. Every decade some wanker in the bushes brings out one of these waste of dead trees and calls it a book.

Canada, Mexico, and Cuba ought to join up as one country, see how the USA reacts.

[max_boost]

you can do that? just up and leave?

[g-m]

its called immigration

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Throw in Montana, Wyoming and Colorado and New Mexico while you are at it. We'd have everything we need, all in one long strip of land.

not sure about Tx, but add wash, Oregon, Idaho, BC, and Alaska and that'd be my dream country, for sure

[MGCM]

none of the US states would EVER break off, thats not even a pipe dream thats straight up bad mushroom talk. I say Western Canada breaks off and starts selling the USA fresh water at a price higher than gold/oil/silver combined. They need it, we have it, lets break their balls for a change.:dunno:

[m10-power]

Id be down with this, makes alot of sense. Each Alberta resident gets a lump sum payment as well as a royalty for life and Id vote for it.

[Arash Boodagh]

Butt energy rich Venezuela...
well trade them ice for butts
Did I mention butts?

[Thales of Miletus]

Why would anyone want to break up the greatest country in the world?

Being Canadian is something to be very proud of.

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by Thales of Miletus
Why would anyone want to break up the greatest country in the world?

Being Canadian is something to be very proud of.

+1, Canada is the best country in the world. We are all fortunate to call it home. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ZenOps]

We could also buy the Turk and Caicos islands from Britain.

Like everything else, timing is everything, and they might be looking to sell soon. Easterners buried under a couple meters of snow might appreciate it.

Start a new pineapple republic.

[Thales of Miletus]

Originally posted by ZenOps
We could also buy the Turk and Caicos islands from Britain.

Like everything else, timing is everything, and they might be looking to sell soon. Easterners buried under a couple meters of snow might appreciate it.

Start a new pineapple republic.

Won't they be underwater in 100 years?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Thales of Miletus


Won't they be underwater in 100 years?

They're a little higher than 2.7cm above sea level.

[Thales of Miletus]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


They're a little higher than 2.7cm above sea level.

If the Pine glacier was the only one that was melting I wouldn't be worried. But Greenland is losing 12 feet of thickness a year. With greenlands mile of thick ice sheet, that is a lot of potential for added sea level.

But why buy the Turks, when we can keep puking the CO2 out and bring the warm weather to us?

Canada will be the destination for the world population in 50 years. So invest in land, it is going to be worth big money.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by BigMass
jesus fuck no. With their idiotic foreign and economic policies, completely broken medical insurance system and fascist tax regime that effectively "owns" it's citizens no matter where in the universe they live, i'll be the first to move out of Alberta if that ever happens.

Bingo. Same here.

[sputnik]

This is a dumb discussion. In order for Alberta to join the US one of two things is going to have to happen.

- Canada has to sell Alberta to the US (not going to happen).
- US has to invade and annex Alberta (not going to happen).

A referendum is not going to be enough for Canada to give up Alberta to the US.

[m10-power]

Maybe not, like Quebec voting to leave Canada. Alberta could do the same, then choose to join the USA. But unlike Quebec we would be welcomed. Also would then demand a travel fee to shipment in and out of BC similar to them wanting a fee for pipelined product. More then happy to be a Canadian but completely tired of paying more then our fair share. Time to rattle the saber ala Quebec.

[Thales of Miletus]

Originally posted by m10-power
Time to rattle the saber ala Quebec.

An Alberta pension plan sounds good to me.

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by m10-power
Maybe not, like Quebec voting to leave Canada. Alberta could do the same, then choose to join the USA. But unlike Quebec we would be welcomed. Also would then demand a travel fee to shipment in and out of BC similar to them wanting a fee for pipelined product. More then happy to be a Canadian but completely tired of paying more then our fair share. Time to rattle the saber ala Quebec.

Alberta's top tax rate is the lowest in North America. Joining the States makes zero sense. And equalization payments come from federal inform tax. You make $100,000 in Quebec or Alberta, you contribute the exact same amount to equalization.

[m10-power]

Originally posted by atgilchrist


Alberta's top tax rate is the lowest in North America. Joining the States makes zero sense. And equalization payments come from federal inform tax. You make $100,000 in Quebec or Alberta, you contribute the exact same amount to equalization.

Alberta has contributed almost $150 billion dollars in 'equalization' payments to Canada. Never receiving a cent of it back. We would be the Saudi Arabia of the USA.

[atgilchrist]

"Alberta" doesn't send anything. As Canadians we all pay the same income tax rates that are spread around the country.

I won't defend many of the ways those tax dollars are used, but equalization is not based on a system of taking from the provincial revenues of the richest provinces. No one seems to get that.

[dirtsniffer]

So its taken from everyone equally then it is transfered to the provinces with the lowest revenue. Pretty easy to see why some people think it's take from Alberta to give to other provinces. Albertan's should just accept that a portion of your federal income tax will go to helping support other provinces and not the country as a whole

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by atgilchrist


Alberta's top tax rate is the lowest in North America. Joining the States makes zero sense. And equalization payments come from federal inform tax. You make $100,000 in Quebec or Alberta, you contribute the exact same amount to equalization.

Except Quebec recieves payments so the portion the dude paid in Quebec will actually have some benefit to him.

[kertejud2]

The exact same thing happens in the US as well. Federal taxes are always collected and distributed in ways that favor the 'poor' areas. For people bitching about giving money to QUebec, in the U.S. we'll be giving it to a whole bunch of the red states.


http://www.makethemaccountable.com/misc/images/USMapGiversAndTakers.JPG

[m10-power]

Originally posted by atgilchrist
"Alberta" doesn't send anything. As Canadians we all pay the same income tax rates that are spread around the country.

I won't defend many of the ways those tax dollars are used, but equalization is not based on a system of taking from the provincial revenues of the richest provinces. No one seems to get that.

quoted from wiki regarding equilization

"The fiscal capacity of the provinces is determined by measuring their revenue from five general sources. Those revenue categories are:

Personal income taxes
Business income taxes
Consumption taxes
Up to 50 percent of natural resource revenue (see below)
Property taxes and miscellaneous
Note: According to the Department of Finance, "provinces get the greater of the amount they would receive by fully excluding natural resource revenues, or by excluding 50% of natural resource revenues."

Certainly much more then just personal income tax balancing.

Again we have contributed ~$150 billion to Canada while receiving nothing in payment back. Now this is simply cash given to so called have not provinces to spend as they see fit.

[kertejud2]

That is how the federal transfer program determines how federal tax money will be distributed to the provinces, not how they collect money from the provinces.

To put it another way: Based on your fiscal capacity (how much tax and royalty revenue the province has), how much is received in federal transfers (generated via federal tax revenue) is calculated.



Again, this wouldn't change if Alberta were part of the US. We would still pay more to federal taxes than we'd receive in federal money. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

[Thales of Miletus]

Well, now that Alberta is quickly becoming a have not province, we should be bitching about equalization payments.

Elect the liberal, they are good at getting money from the federal government.

[sputnik]

The other thing that needs to be considered is how many Canadian head offices would leave Alberta as a result of no longer being part of Canada (US or independent).

Corporate taxes are much higher in the US and less attractive to big business.

[adam c]

Originally posted by sputnik
The other thing that needs to be considered is how many Canadian head offices would leave Alberta as a result of no longer being part of Canada (US or independent).

Corporate taxes are much higher in the US and less attractive to big business.

Since when do corporations pay taxes in the US though

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by adam c


Since when do corporations pay taxes in the US though

Not all corporations can afford the best accountants to not have to pay corporate taxes.

[Gman.45]

Why join the USA at all? You can still have separation from Canada without having to join the Americans. Does anyone here seriously believe that if Quebec ever successfully separates that they're going to run to the USA to join the Union? Dat will nod hewp wid da keepin of da rights of les Francais.

Why should Alberta do so then if it chose to left by a referendum? I'm not whining about the transfer payments, I'm thinking more preemptively of another NEP coming down from Super Justin when he defeats Harper - combine that with increasing firearms controls, taxes, and all those other great things the Liberal party ALWAYS has historically brought Alberta, people are going to get pissed again. That alone IMO isn't enough to to begin some revolution to leave, BUT if Quebec was to simultaneously get out of Confederation and depart, while the above things were happening to Alberta courtesy of the Federal government again, THEN I think Alberta separating would rapidly gain popularity, and even have the slimmest possibility of becoming reality.

Alberta all on its own, just like Quebec. The difference being we don't talk funny, forbid people from putting English, Chinese, whatever the fuck language signs up in their businesses, don't whine constantly about "our culture", and, oh ya, actually make and HAVE money and assets. Again, if Quebec pulled off separation finally, the door would be wide open for other Provinces to do so as well, and as I said, with a lot of negative policies that ARE going to be happening again angering the West, I don't think it'll be as tough a sell in the future, if both of those things were to occur simultaneously.

What the Americans would do with an independent Albert is an interesting subject. A very large portion of the strategic oil reserve the USA has is sitting just North of Edmonton a few hours. A very large portion. This makes Alberta strategically more important than any other place in Canada to the USA - it would be interesting to see what they would offer...or threaten...an independent Alberta with regarding energy sales/policies and whatnot.

I've lived nearly 1/2 my life in the USA, and 1/2 of my family lives there now, perhaps a bit more. I wouldn't want to live there permanently, although I would like some of the freedoms they have that we don't due to the nature of my work and other activities, but I also wouldn't like to live in a place like say Chicago anymore either. Or Detroit. We just don't have those sort of places here in Canada. On balance, I'd rather be Canadian, or independent, before joining the USA.