Germanwings Airbus crash in the Alps, no survivors

[Tik-Tok]

RIP

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germanwings-flight-4u9525-airbus-a320-crash-in-french-alps-kills-150-aboard-1.3006701


An Airbus operated by Lufthansa's Germanwings budget airline crashed in a remote snowy area of the French Alps on Tuesday, killing all 150 on board including 16 schoolchildren.

Germanwings confirmed its flight 4U9525 from Barcelona to Duesseldorf crashed with 144 passengers and six crew on board.

French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said the plane's flight recorder, more commonly called the black box, has been located, although it was not immediately known if the recorder had been recovered.

The airline believed there were 67 Germans on the flight. Spain's deputy prime minister said 45 passengers had Spanish names. One Belgian was aboard.

Also among the victims were 16 children and two teachers from the Joseph-Koenig-Gymnasium high school in the town of Haltern am See in northwest Germany, a spokeswoman said. The high school group was returning from an exchange in Spain.

Investigators described a scene of devastation where the airliner crashed.

Gilbert Sauvan, president of the general council of the Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, told the Associated Press that debris from the crash is spread over 100 to 200 metres.

"Everything is pulverized," he said.

"We saw an aircraft that had literally been ripped apart, the bodies are in a state of destruction, there is not one intact piece of wing or fuselage," Bruce Robin, prosecutor for the city of Marseille, told Reuters in Seyne-les-Alpes after flying over the crash zone in a helicopter.

French police at the crash site said no one survived and that recovery of bodies will be complicated by difficult terrain, snow and incoming storms.

"It is going to take days to recover the victims, then the debris," senior police officer Jean-Paul Bloy told Reuters.

[BavarianBeast]

Wow, that's horrible.

RIP to all aboard, terrible to see such a young group of fallen victim of this.

[snowcat]

Has there been an increase in crashes recently? Really sucks :(

[Sentry]

Weird that an A320 went down. Curious about investigation results.

[Feruk]

BBC link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32030270

I'm gonna call this one here and now. Fire on board. Perfectly explains everything except the lack of distress call. That assumes BBC's comment about the plane stabilizing out between 9:40 and 9:53 is correct, which is questionable.

RIP, really sad to see this happen in Europe.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by Feruk
really sad to see this happen in Europe.
Why is it only sad in Europe?

[r3ccOs]

the Jews

[Feruk]

Originally posted by jwslam
Why is it only sad in Europe?
I didn't say only. But due to the difference is circumstances, I think this one is more sad. Reasons:
(a) Germany is known for building some of the best machinery in the world and it was their airline's plane that crashed.
(b) Germans are known as some of the most efficient people in the world. You hope that their training is some of the best in the world. Certainly better than those two idiots who stalled Air Asia.
(b) because unlike the two Asia crashes, this occurred over land with lots of nearly airports to make an emergency landing at, in broad daylight. The two Asia crashes occurred at night, over water, and off radar.

Basically, it's harder to crash in western Europe, and the pilots were likely far better trained and experienced. It's no more or less of a tragedy, it's just not as expected.

[riander5]

Originally posted by r3ccOs
the Jews

Exactly

[?????]

Originally posted by snowcat
Has there been an increase in crashes recently? Really sucks :(

I don't think so. Just larger disasters and more coverage and access to the NEWS and social media. I also think last years Malaysian Airlines circumstances made everyone more aware.



Originally posted by Feruk

I didn't say only. But due to the difference is circumstances, I think this one is more sad. Reasons:
(a) Germany is known for building some of the best machinery in the world and it was their airline's plane that crashed.
(b) Germans are known as some of the most efficient people in the world. You hope that their training is some of the best in the world. Certainly better than those two idiots who stalled Air Asia.
(b) because unlike the two Asia crashes, this occurred over land with lots of nearly airports to make an emergency landing at, in broad daylight. The two Asia crashes occurred at night, over water, and off radar.

Basically, it's harder to crash in western Europe, and the pilots were likely far better trained and experienced. It's no more or less of a tragedy, it's just not as expected.


I don't think its a German machine.
Anyone have any stats comparing air tragedies in different regions of the world?

[revelations]

Originally posted by Feruk
BBC link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32030270

I'm gonna call this one here and now. Fire on board. Perfectly explains everything except the lack of distress call. That assumes BBC's comment about the plane stabilizing out between 9:40 and 9:53 is correct, which is questionable.

RIP, really sad to see this happen in Europe.


Depressurization - perhaps a window in the flight deck. :dunno:

[Thales of Miletus]

Such events remind us to live each day to its fullest and to treat everyone kindly.

Meanwhile 23,000 people have starved to death today. We should be truly thankful for the blessings we in Alberta have.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by revelations
Depressurization - perhaps a window in the flight deck. :dunno:
Doesn't account for leveling out, lack of distress call attempt, and one incident of being able to land even after depressurization involving one pilot being partially sucked out.


Originally posted by ?????
I don't think its a German machine.
German maintained.

[My_name_is_Rob]

Lufthansa's Germanwings budget airline


I'm not sure how many of you have flown with Lufthansa, let alone their budget inter-euro subsidiaries, but they do not use new technology/aircraft by any means. Its very unfortunate that it failed in this way though.

RIP to all the victims.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob


I'm not sure how many of you have flown with Lufthansa, let alone their budget inter-euro subsidiaries, but they do not use new technology/aircraft by any means. Its very unfortunate that it failed in this way though.

RIP to all the victims.

While this A320 was 24 years old, the average fleet age of Germanwings is 9 years old.

WestJet's is 6; Air Canada's 15. Equipment is hardly an issue. And a 24 year old airplane isn't "old".

[rage2]

Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob
I'm not sure how many of you have flown with Lufthansa, let alone their budget inter-euro subsidiaries, but they do not use new technology/aircraft by any means. Its very unfortunate that it failed in this way though.

RIP to all the victims.
I've flown Lufthansa a few times in the last few years, and their planes have been really new, or maybe they've been upgraded. Just talking about the interior tho. Modern seats and LED lighting, wifi, the works.

[zipdoa]

Originally posted by Feruk
(a) Germany is known for building some of the best machinery in the world and it was their airline's plane that crashed.

Originally posted by Feruk
German maintained.

You can see why he got confused.




It's gonna be a PITA recovering bodies in the alps.


Victims and nationalities

Here's a look at what is known about the nationalities from Germanwings and from governments that have announced their citizens were aboard Flight 4U9525:

72 Germans, confirmed by Germanwings.​​
​35 Spaniards, according to Germanwings; Spain says there may be up to 49.
3 British, confirmed by the government, which says there may be more. Germanwings could only confirm 1 British.​
3 Kazakhs, confirmed by the government.​
2 Americans, confirmed by Germanwings.​
2 Argentines, confirmed by Germanwings.​
2 Australians, confirmed by the government and Germanwings.​
2 Colombians, confirmed by the government. Germanwings listed 1 Colombian.​
2 Iranians, confirmed by Germanwings.​
2 Japanese, confirmed by the government. Germanwings listed 1 Japanese.​
2 Venezuelans, confirmed by Germanwings.​
1 Belgian, confirmed by Germanwings.​
1 Dane, confirmed by the government and Germanwings.​
1 Dutch, confirmed by the government and Germanwings.​
1 Israeli, confirmed by the government and Germanwings.​
1 Mexican, confirmed by Germanwings.​

[revelations]

Originally posted by Feruk

Doesn't account for leveling out, lack of distress call attempt, and one incident of being able to land even after depressurization involving one pilot being partially sucked out.


German maintained.

Didnt know about the levelling out part (thought it descended directly to the mtn) - in that case I'd change my guess to pilot suicide :(

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by revelations


Didnt know about the levelling out part (thought it descended directly to the mtn) - in that case I'd change my guess to pilot suicide :(

I don't get why a pilot would do this, instead of at home without passengers.

There was a similar incident 10 years ago in which an Egyptian airplane went down without reason.... The suspicion was pilot suicide as well.

Just doesn't make sense to me (Unless someone threatened the Pilot's family if he didn't do it - in which case you'd expect an accompanying claim to take credit).

[My_name_is_Rob]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


While this A320 was 24 years old, the average fleet age of Germanwings is 9 years old.

WestJet's is 6; Air Canada's 15. Equipment is hardly an issue. And a 24 year old airplane isn't "old".

I actually didn't know this so I had to check. It seems all their A320's are around the same age. But i wasn't expecting the average to be that young. My source lists 13.8 years, which still isn't very old. source (http://http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Germanwings[/URL)

I've never flown in the cockpit, so it is possible that they did retrofit the older planes, with newer tech. But from the passenger compartment, and exterior of the plane they look aged. And not like a fine wine.

Originally posted by rage2

I've flown Lufthansa a few times in the last few years, and their planes have been really new, or maybe they've been upgraded. Just talking about the interior tho. Modern seats and LED lighting, wifi, the works.
I must have completely lucked out everytime I have flown with them then, and gotten the old planes. I will admit though, the staff was always friendly.

[Maxx Mazda]

All A318/319/320/321 aircraft have the same flight deck, across all vintages. There is no "retrofitting" or upgrading to be done.

Most of the stuff in our fleet is at least 15 years old, 24 years old is still not old in "airline years". Age has less to do with the lifespan of an aircraft than does airframe hours or airframe cycles.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by revelations
Didnt know about the levelling out part (thought it descended directly to the mtn) - in that case I'd change my guess to pilot suicide :(
The first BBC article mentioned it. Can't be pilot suicide IMO. Why would he level out at ~6000ft then crash? Plus in previous cases, pilot suicide was accompanied by switching off the cockpit voice recorder.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Feruk

The first BBC article mentioned it. Can't be pilot suicide IMO. Why would he level out at ~6000ft then crash? Plus in previous cases, pilot suicide was accompanied by switching off the cockpit voice recorder.

Report is now circulating that one pilot was locked out of the cockpit. Supposedly he can be heard on the CVR trying to break the door down.

Would make it seem like another Silk Air.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by FraserB


Report is now circulating that one pilot was locked out of the cockpit. Supposedly he can be heard on the CVR trying to break the door down.

Would make it seem like another Silk Air.
Yup

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0

[Tik-Tok]

Jumping to conclusions there guys. Just because one guy is locked out doesn't make it a suicide run.

They made no mention of the door code being tried, and denied. I don't know about an Airbus, but on our Boeings when you put in the code, there's a deafening buzzer that continues for 60 seconds and doesn't go quiet until the "deny access" switch is hit, or it unlocks itself because it wasn't hit.

If it were tried, you would think they would mention that.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Feruk

The first BBC article mentioned it. Can't be pilot suicide IMO. Why would he level out at ~6000ft then crash? Plus in previous cases, pilot suicide was accompanied by switching off the cockpit voice recorder.


Logic goes out the proverbial window with the mentally unstable. Some may even want to have their last words broadcast for the world to know.

[zipdoa]

Germanwings co-pilot intended to destroy plane, says French prosecutor
The co-pilot of the Airbus A320 that crashed on Tuesday, killing 150 people, appears to have deliberately flown the plane into a mountain after locking the flight commander out of the cockpit.

During the last eight minutes of the flight, the co-pilot “voluntarily” carried out actions that led to the destruction of the aircraft, Brice Robin, a French public prosecutor, said at a press conference in Marseille.

Robin said the co-pilot could be heard breathing right up until the point of impact, suggesting he had not lost consciousness. However, he failed to respond to increasingly desperate calls from the commander trying to break down the cockpit door, or to air traffic controllers.

The Marseille public prosecutor is giving a press conference on the latest developments in the investigation into Tuesday’s plane crash.

Robin named the co-pilot as 28-year-old Andreas Lubitz and outlined the last moments of the doomed plane in a chilling account of his actions.

“For the first 20 minutes of the flight, the pilots spoke in a normal way, you could say cheerful and courteous,” Robin said. “We heard the flight commander prepare the briefing for landing at Düsseldorf and the response of the co-pilot seemed laconic. Then we heard the commander ask the co-pilot to take the controls.

“We heard at the same time the sound of a seat being pushed back and the sound of a door closing.”

Robin said it was assumed that the flight commander needed to go to “satisfy natural needs” – in other words, use the toilet.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525

[CompletelyNumb]

Cue the lawsuits.

Sad outcome. RIP to everyone else.

[ZenOps]

Its always sad when the man in the drivers (or cockpit) seat ends up being crazy.

Its like one day, you have a bus driver leader that is relatively sane, and the next - hes driving you straight into hell.

[jdmXSI]

Thats quite sad, I wonder what goes through these peoples heads when they think its a good idea to kill a plane load of people. rip everyone.

[Cos]

.

[Feruk]

Wow, did not see that coming... That's the saddest possible outcome. RIP.

I wonder how this will change the aviation community...

[zipdoa]

Originally posted by Cos
God that sends chills down my spine. Not a good way to go, as everyone probably knew it was coming. I'd rather blow up mid-air.


The prosecutor said sounds of passengers screaming could be heard on the recording just before the plane crashed into the French Alps. "I think the victims realized just at the last moment."

Yup, that's pretty heavy.

http://gawker.com/screams-heard-as-co-pilot-crashed-germanwings-flight-p-1693793585

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob

I've never flown in the cockpit


"Hey Joey, you ever been in a cockpit before?"


Back on topic: Terrible news. They must not test people annually for mental issues. But then again what workplace does?

[Xtrema]

I thought standard procedure is nobody is ever alone in the cockpit.

Sad. Can't imagine as the mountain comes up and you know you are going to die.

[mr2mike]

Didn't the locking cockpit door only come about after 9/11?

I don't want to blame 9/11 but...

[Quiet10]

Originally posted by Xtrema
I thought standard procedure is nobody is ever alone in the cockpit.

Sad. Can't imagine as the mountain comes up and you know you are going to die.

Apparently not all airlines in all countries have the same regulations for this.

Germanwings crash: safety... (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/germanwings-crash-safety-of-cockpit-doors-on-all-planes-questioned)

I personally think that it should be a requirement across all airlines.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by mr2mike
Didn't the locking cockpit door only come about after 9/11?

I don't want to blame 9/11 but...

Ok. Listen to CBC now. Single man rule only apply to European domestic flights.

International and North American are the one that doesn't allow single crew in cockpit.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Ok. Listen to CBC now. Single man rule only apply to European domestic flights.

International and North American are the one that doesn't allow single crew in cockpit.

So what does a two man crew do if one of them has to use the toilet over a long flight? Call a flight attendant in?

[Maxx Mazda]

Originally posted by Aleks


So what does a two man crew do if one of them has to use the toilet over a long flight? Call a flight attendant in?

That's correct. Both seats up front must be occupied, so a flight attendant will sit in while either pilot grabs a piss.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Aleks


So what does a two man crew do if one of them has to use the toilet over a long flight? Call a flight attendant in?

Yes.

So at a minimum, you won't have this locked out situation even if the attendant isn't a pilot.

[Canmorite]

This has gone from sad to outright creepy and disturbing. What a sick individual.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Maxx Mazda


That's correct. Both seats up front must be occupied, so a flight attendant will sit in while either pilot grabs a piss.

A regulation that's rarely followed though.

I'm surprised at how negligent they are being about this. It takes more than 12 hours with a CVR for a proper investigation. Condemning the man because "he was breathing so must have been conscious"? Seriously? I'm sure lots of frat boys have tried using that defense at their rape trials to no avail. Lets wait for the FDR data to back it all up before judging the man.

As I stated before, no mention of the door chime, so did he purposefully keep out the Captain? Or was he unable to?

[revelations]

A few of the past events of pilot suicide:




29 November 2013 – 33 fatalities, LAM

LAM Flight 470 entered a rapid descent while en route between Maputo and Luanda and crashed in Namibia. Investigations revealed that the crash had been caused by intentional actions by the pilot, which included making control inputs that directed the aircraft to the ground.

31 October 1999 – 217 fatalities, Egypt Air

Only half-an-hour after taking off from JFK Airport in New York Egypt Air flight 990 entered rapid descent, crashing into the Atlantic Ocean some 100km from Nantucket Island Massachusetts, killing everyone on board. The descent happened moments after the captain left the flight deck, with investigations suggesting that the relief pilot had intentionally sent it into the ocean. There was, however, no conclusive evidence and the claim was heavily disputed by Egyptian authorities.

11 October 1999 – 1 fatality, Air Botswana

An Air Botswana pilot who had been grounded for medical reasons took off in an ATR-42 and proceeded to make various demands over the radio before crashing into two similar aircraft at Gaborone Airport.

19 December 1997 – 104 fatalities, Silk Air

During a flight from Jakarta, Indonesia to Singapore, Silk Air flight 185 crashed in Indonesia after entering a rapid descent. It has been suggested by amongst others the US NTSB that the captain may have committed suicide by switching off both flight recorders and intentionally putting the Boeing 737 in a dive, possibly when the first officer had left the flight deck. He had apparently been experiencing various work-related difficulties in the 6 months prior to the incident.

21 August 1994 – 44 fatalities, Royal Air Maroc

A Royal Air Maroc pilot was accused of switching off autopilot and intentionally steering an ATR-42 into the Atlas Mountains shortly after takeoff from Agadir, Morocco in 1994.

13 July 1994 – 1 fatality

A Russian Air Force engineer stole the aircraft at the Kubinka AFB to commit suicide. The aircraft crashed when there was no more fuel left.

22 August 1979 – 4 fatalities

A young military mechanic who had just been fired entered a hangar at Bogotá Airport, Colombia and stole a military HS-748 transport plane. He took off and crashed the plane in a residential area.

26 September 1976 – 12 fatalities

Shortly after getting divorced, a Russian pilot stole an Antonov 2 airplane and directed it into the block of flats in Novosibirsk where his ex-wife lived.

[Kobe]

Seriously, thats so sick. I understand that if there is conditions and a plane crashes and there is no survivors, but for the pilot to purposely crash the plane that just makes me sick...

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
I'm surprised at how negligent they are being about this. It takes more than 12 hours with a CVR for a proper investigation. Condemning the man because "he was breathing so must have been conscious"? Seriously? I'm sure lots of frat boys have tried using that defense at their rape trials to no avail. Lets wait for the FDR data to back it all up before judging the man.

As I stated before, no mention of the door chime, so did he purposefully keep out the Captain? Or was he unable to?

The reports I've read seem to indicate that the captain input the emergency code to enter the cockpit, but the copilot used the override system to keep him out - hence his futile attempts to break down the door.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


The reports I've read seem to indicate that the captain input the emergency code to enter the cockpit, but the copilot used the override system to keep him out - hence his futile attempts to break down the door.

That's the media for you though, jumping to conclusions from one snippet of information.

Every article I've read mentions the capability, but not one confirms that the code was entered, and purposefully denied access. It would be VERY obvious in the recording from the loud noise it makes.


The buzzer sounds in the cockpit for
1 to 9 s to indicate that a routine access request has been
made, or sounds continuously if an emergency access procedure has been initiated.

I'm not saying he didn't do it, but no where actually says he did either.

[lil*tymer]

Even if a flight attendant was present in the cabin, she/he could be easily blindsided and knocked out or subdued.

[baygirl]

This article states that the 2 person in the cockpit policy is a U.S policy, and that Canadian and European airlines are not required to follow the same policy. Air Canada is instating it immediately though.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/new-cockpit-policy-for-air-canada-1.2298727

[01RedDX]

.

[Thales of Miletus]

Can psychopaths be detected with brain scans?

Maybe each commercial pilot needs to have an MRI.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by lil*tymer
Even if a flight attendant was present in the cabin, she/he could be easily blindsided and knocked out or subdued.

This is exactly right - it will have no effect. Assuming someone was with him and he blind sides them across the head with a coffee mug, you've accomplished nothing.

I think we'll need to see stricter processes to take manual control - ie, the system won't just allow you to grab the stick and dive into a mountain or building.

[revelations]

Unless MH 370 is found to be caused by a pilot going nuts, dont expect too many new pieces of equipment.

The odds of this happening again are extremely small - yet it will happen again, just like CFIT keeps on happening to normal pilots who have all the latest GPWS systems etc. :dunno:

[Lanks]

Originally posted by Khyron


This is exactly right - it will have no effect. Assuming someone was with him and he blind sides them across the head with a coffee mug, you've accomplished nothing.

I think we'll need to see stricter processes to take manual control - ie, the system won't just allow you to grab the stick and dive into a mountain or building.


Don't even need to use a coffee mug, there is a fire axe readily available in the cockpit. This new policy won't change anything if somebody is set on mass murder.

As for the manual control, a pilot is usually required to manually intervene multiple times on every flight (not including takeoff and landing even) In this case the guy likely didn't even kick off the auto pilot, just a twist of two knobs would do it.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by Khyron


This is exactly right - it will have no effect. Assuming someone was with him and he blind sides them across the head with a coffee mug, you've accomplished nothing.



That's rather absurd.

Lack of a perfect solution shouldn't disqualify imperfect solutions.

The deadbolts on my front door won't stop someone driving through it with a Semi - Yet I have them.

Not for the protection they don't provide, but for the protection they do.

[Tik-Tok]

They should just have air marshals pointing a loaded gun at the pilot while the other is taking a piss.

And then another air marshal pointing a gun at the first one, just in case.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by revelations
Unless MH 370 is found to be caused by a pilot going nuts, don't expect too many new pieces of equipment.
That is the leading theory.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


That's rather absurd.

Lack of a perfect solution shouldn't disqualify imperfect solutions.

The deadbolts on my front door won't stop someone driving through it with a Semi - Yet I have them.

Not for the protection they don't provide, but for the protection they do.

If a 200 lbs man decided to crash a plane, what possible difference will having a 110 lbs, completely unsuspecting, flight attendant in the cockpit make to the outcome? Absolutely 0. If it was to guard against someone falling asleep then fine but against someone with malicious intent? All this policy will do is breed distrust and suspicion among the staff.

But they have to look like they are doing something.

[Thales of Miletus]

Originally posted by Khyron


If a 200 lbs man decided to crash a plane, what possible difference will having a 110 lbs, completely unsuspecting, flight attendant in the cockpit make to the outcome? Absolutely 0. If it was to guard against someone falling asleep then fine but against someone with malicious intent? All this policy will do is breed distrust and suspicion among the staff.

But they have to look like they are doing something.

Try boning a 110 pound woman, and then tell her you just boned her sister. See how long you will survive.

[botox]

While the majority of flight attendants are women, there are plenty of male attendants and I've seem many decent sized guys, also not all pilots are male. However, I won't disagree that even the smallest person can take out a 250lb UFC champ if they are caught off guard. Anyhow, until they get fully automated planes, there's not much you can do when someone is set to commit suicide with a plane full of people. Hell even if the plane is fully automated there will probably still be a manual override. Regulations is one thing, but once you are in the air who's actually following everything by the book, especially when you have a crew that is familiar with each other and become a bit laid back on the rules.

RIP to all that passed.

[Aleks]

So they found a letter in his home from a Dr. stating he was unfit to work. Do airlines rely of self disclosure from pilots in cases like this where a pilot can be declared unfit to work by a family dr?

[Tik-Tok]

They have to submit their annual medical, but if it wasn't passed it's due date, he wouldn't have been grounded. If you're asking if doctors directly submit the test results to the appropriate workplace or regulatory body, they don't here.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Looks like not only did he manually override the door to prevent the Pilot from re-entering, but he also set the autopilot to 100 ft (apparently the minimum). It would be pretty hard to argue this wasn't intentional.

Just like with suicide bombers and the like, if the assailant is also willing to die, it's a lot harder to stop them. Good thing stuff like this is ultra-rare.

IMO there should be a way for air traffic control to completely override the plane in certain instances (i.e. unresponsive cockpit, severe off-course maneuvers, etc.).

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

IMO there should be a way for air traffic control to completely override the plane in certain instances (i.e. unresponsive cockpit, severe off-course maneuvers, etc.).
The problem with that is it creates another way for people up to no good to do their thing. Could a crazy air traffic controller crash a plane? Or simply send one with low fuel out over the ocean?

[Cos]

.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Stuart

The problem with that is it creates another way for people up to no good to do their thing. Could a crazy air traffic controller crash a plane? Or simply send one with low fuel out over the ocean?

How many people are working in an air traffic control tower, 20? 50? Just make it so 2 or 3 people or whatever need to input codes for the authorization to be granted, plus an off site third party (maybe someone from the airline or another tower or someone on the plane?). Then, even if someone comes into a control tower with a gun demanding they override a plane, they can't unless they have somehow manipulated every single person in the chain.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Looks like not only did he manually override the door to prevent the Pilot from re-entering, but he also set the autopilot to 100 ft (apparently the minimum). It would be pretty hard to argue this wasn't intentional.
How did they find out that he did that with only the CVR and not the Data black box? Are there audio confirmations from the plane when this is set?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by rage2

How did they find out that he did that with only the CVR and not the Data black box? Are there audio confirmations from the plane when this is set?

There are audio queues for the door.

My understanding was that flight tracking services can tell when someone changes autopilot:

http://www.businessinsider.com/aviation-tracking-service-germanwings-pilot-ordered-jet-down-to-100-feet-2015-3

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by rage2

How did they find out that he did that with only the CVR and not the Data black box? Are there audio confirmations from the plane when this is set?


Originally posted by Tik-Tok


The buzzer sounds in the cockpit for
1 to 9 s to indicate that a routine access request has been
made, or sounds continuously if an emergency access procedure has been initiated.

[rage2]

Yea, I knew about the door. My question was on the autopilot setting. Should've been more clear.

Thanks Mitsu.

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


How many people are working in an air traffic control tower, 20? 50? Just make it so 2 or 3 people or whatever need to input codes for the authorization to be granted, plus an off site third party (maybe someone from the airline or another tower or someone on the plane?). Then, even if someone comes into a control tower with a gun demanding they override a plane, they can't unless they have somehow manipulated every single person in the chain.

Or someone hacks the system. Right now there is a very small number of people who have the ability to control the plane, once control can be taken by an external link that number grows very fast.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Stuart


Or someone hacks the system. Right now there is a very small number of people who have the ability to control the plane, once control can be taken by an external link that number grows very fast.

If you want to talk vulnerability, the technology exists, right now, for a determined person to sit in a pax seat and take over certain parts of the aircraft command and control software - possibly through the IFE system.

Yes, some of the newer aircraft (eg. 787) thankfully employ air-gaps, but older gen models dont.

[71/454]

Originally posted by revelations


If you want to talk vulnerability, the technology exists, right now, for a determined person to sit in a pax seat and take over certain parts of the aircraft command and control software - possibly through the IFE system.

Yes, some of the newer aircraft (eg. 787) thankfully employ air-gaps, but older gen models dont.

Um, no.

You want people believe that someone can hack and control the aircraft from the USB plug in 14C? Thanks for the attempt at fear mongering.
On older aircraft that never had the newer IFE systems this was a total retrofit, in plain terms, they have a standalone computer system.

[revelations]

Boeing’s concerns about computer system security

Boeing itself has been cognizant of this issue. Prior to the MH370 mystery, the company took steps to mitigate the risk of someone hacking into its planes. According to International Business Times, Boeing filed documents with the U.S. Federal Register to upgrade the onboard networks of its 777-200, 777-300, and 777-300ER aircraft, apparently out of the concern that the connections between their entertainment systems and critical control infrastructure could enable a complete takeover.

“This proposed data network and design integration may result in security vulnerabilities from intentional or unintentional corruption of data and systems critical to the safety and maintenance of the airplane,” stated Boeing’s filing with the U.S. Federal Register.

In theory, a hacker could have taken advantage of the USB and/or ethernet ports that come standard on a 777, en route to gaining full access to the plane’s computer systems. Boeing addressed this vulnerability after the Federal Aviation Administration approved its request to change its license. A network extension was added to keep systems separated from each other.

The MH370 airliner was a Boeing 777-200 that, as BankInfoSecurity explained, featured integrated systems capable of connecting with external networks. In granting the license change, the FAA stipulated that this setup had to prevent malicious changes while ensuring that the plane could still be flown properly.
Security experts contend airliner hacking is a real threat

Still, the cybersecurity community has contended that insufficient attention and resources have been devoted to hardening aircraft, Boeing 777s in particular, against hacking. Radware vice president Carl Herberger, for example, has argued that airliners should be more thoroughly tested against cyberattacks before being deemed airworthy.

“Security professionals have long understood the threat that embedded systems create for modern day critical infrastructure,” explained Herberger. “We need to test and protect these systems and it’s high time to drive these processes into modern day transportation (and I’ll add other sectors) vendors to ensure public safety.”

The FAA’s Jeffrey Duven even admitted that the body’s current regulations had not been designed with 777-style integrated systems in mind. He noted that any hacking of a Boeing 777 could result in decreased safety and potentially risky conditions for passengers.

The problem isn’t just with the onboard infrastructure. Various manufacturers and contractors contribute to the construction of planes, meaning lax security at one of their facilities could give away critical information about the systems and compromise the entire aircraft.

The issues with Boeing 777 systems illustrate the importance of restricting data access to authorized parties. Software such as PowerTech Network Security ensure that exit points and traffic to Power Systems servers are properly monitored, preventing the types of intrusions that security experts have warned about in airliners.

Many organizations still have large gaps in their security coverage. For example, only a sliver of IBM i systems monitor all network access points. PowerTech helps fill those gaps by providing a wide range of security solutions that control and monitor system access and activity. Its products close back doors and limit user access to sensitive commands without reducing productivity.
Last Updated: Jun 20, 2014

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http://www.helpsystems.com/PowerTech/vulnerability-integrated-systems

http://www.bankinfosecurity.com/blogs/hacking-boeing-777-p-1638/op-1

[71/454]

Interesting, but go back and read what you wrote and my response.
The "older gen" as you called them are all retrofits, and are stand alone IFE.
This particular A320 was 24 years old.
Your article states they recognized a problem on only the 777 and fixed it, your post states it's a problem right now.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

[revelations]

Originally posted by 71/454
Interesting, but go back and read what you wrote and my response.
The "older gen" as you called them are all retrofits, and are stand alone IFE.
This particular A320 was 24 years old.
Your article states they recognized a problem on only the 777 and fixed it, your post states it's a problem right now.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I am not referring to a specific type of aircraft, the example was from a triple 7 as its an acknowledged issue. If you work with TCP/IP, you will understand that because one issue has been acknowledged, it doesent mean all zero-day problems suddenly go away.

A moment ago you denied any conceivable chance that this was even plausible. I provided evidence that it is real and its being addressed too slowly and represents a risk for modern, network-centric aircraft.

[71/454]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[revelations]

Fair enough.

Understand that I am not talking about some 14 year old on their iPad suddenly issuing control surface input commands through an app - a directed attack would require (probably) government-level support in the same manner as STUXNET - which was used to damage/destroy the (Siemens?) centrifuges in Iran.

The odds of this happening are less than pilot suicide IMO

[AndyL]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/03/world/europe/germanwings-lufthansa-andreas-lubitz-black-box.html?_r=0



DÜSSELDORF, Germany — The co-pilot at the controls of the Germanwings airliner that crashed into the French Alps last week had been searching the Internet in the days immediately before for information about how to commit suicide and the security measures for cockpit doors, prosecutors said Thursday.

Investigators found an iPad belonging to the co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, at his apartment in Düsseldorf that included his browser history from March 16 to March 23, the day before the crash, prosecutors said.

[Thales of Miletus]

This pilot can never be forgiven for what he did.

Unless you are completely out of your mind, there is no excuse for this piece of human trash.

I wish they could find part of his DNA, clone him 180 times, and then execute everyone of them.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by rage2
Yea, I knew about the door. My question was on the autopilot setting. Should've been more clear.
I thought they recovered the flight data recorder, and this is where autopilot configuration data came from.

[rage2]

My post was before the flight black box was recovered. And flightaware has the data on autopilot settings, guess it's transmitted and that's how they figured out what happened without the black box.