CPS dodging responsibility for breaking traffic laws

[zipdoa]

Discuss:

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/to-serve-protect-and-avoid-traffic-tickets-1.2295361


Calgary Police officers are being caught in their own photo radar traps several times per day, but are seldom issued tickets, a CTV News investigation has found.

[schocker]

Gets ticket on duty, cps pays ticket, cps gets payment for ticket. Not a big deal. It is other government employees getting tickets like COC personnel that are a worse problem.

[killramos]

If i get a speeding ticket while driving a company vehicle not only do I pay it but i get in shit.

IMO unless CPS officer has a good reason for the infraction ( should be documented with evidence based on radio communication or something telling him to rush to a site ) he should face similar consequences.

This isn't complicated.

[A790]

It's about leading by example. Not a hard concept to grasp.

[Tik-Tok]

CPS member blows light/speeds, etc. CPS pays out of budget, CPS budget needs more money to pay for tickets, CPS increases monthly quota to get money from civilians to pay CPS infractions, CPS members get overtime to patrol more civilians.

Fucking ingenious! :rofl:

[firebane]

Originally posted by killramos
If i get a speeding ticket while driving a company vehicle not only do I pay it but i get in shit.

IMO unless CPS officer has a good reason for the infraction ( should be documented with evidence based on radio communication or something telling him to rush to a site ) he should face similar consequences.

This isn't complicated.

I won't get in shit for tickets through my job unless I've broken the law quite a few times.

They do expect us to pay the fines we incur tho..

[Tik-Tok]

I wonder if they include their own numbers when announcing how many people run red lights etc?

[killramos]

Originally posted by firebane


I won't get in shit for tickets through my job unless I've broken the law quite a few times.

They do expect us to pay the fines we incur tho..

I should clarify that "in shit" means getting my peepee slapped, stern talking to, whatever. Nothing official with HR or anything so serious. Not that I ever have but still getting speeding tickets in a company car is a CLM...

[FullFledgedYYC]

Originally posted by schocker
Gets ticket on duty, cps pays ticket, cps gets payment for ticket. Not a big deal. It is other government employees getting tickets like COC personnel that are a worse problem.

Not sure which city employees you are referring to but all Transit workers be it a bus driver, mechanic, or supervisor pay their own tickets and it is put on their employment record.

I regularly see the cops speed through the intersection near my place (elbow and heritage) and make the camera go off. I have also seen two of the new cruisers go through a red at late hours of the night with no sirens, one I followed and he was definitely not on his way to an emergency. Of course the police will cover that up with "oh, the emergency was likely cancelled".

That's the problem in this all, they can cover it up easily, so they will keep doing it.

But, hey, it's about safety, right? Cop cars are invincible to the laws of physics, so when they do it, it's safe.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Swank]

Without accountability this BS isn't surprising. Sadly this will likely just all go away with little change when it's no longer news.

[max_boost]

They are trained professionals. :D

My radar detector has been very handy. I don't think I can comfortably drive without one haha

[Sentry]

To observe and collect.

[FraserB]

Police and other emergency crews are allowed under the TSA to break its provisions IN THE EXECUTION OF THEIR DUTIES, not just in "emergencies". There are plenty of times where they won't be going lights and sirens to a call but need to get there fast.

If they can't justify the speeding ticket or red light ticket, then they get to deal with it. The article shows that, what it doesn't say is why some of the unpaid tickets were not paid. The officer is entitled to the exact same process as anyone else who gets a ticket.


Originally posted by FullFledgedYYC
I regularly see the cops speed through the intersection near my place (elbow and heritage) and make the camera go off. I have also seen two of the new cruisers go through a red at late hours of the night with no sirens, one I followed and he was definitely not on his way to an emergency.

They don't need to be on the way to an emergency. Just need to be able to justify that it occurred during the execution of their duties.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

As for not being able to figure out who was driving, it said that it occurred once. Not that it happens every time.

[OU812]

Originally posted by killramos
If i get a speeding ticket while driving a company vehicle not only do I pay it but i get in shit.

IMO unless CPS officer has a good reason for the infraction ( should be documented with evidence based on radio communication or something telling him to rush to a site ) he should face similar consequences.

This isn't complicated.
Would you not assume that's what they do??

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by FraserB

They don't need to be on the way to an emergency. Just need to be able to justify that it occurred during the execution of their duties.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

So does a ghost car riding my ass to get me to speed up count as executing duties? 3 times I have had my ass ridden by a ghost truck on deerfoot. Close enough that I can make out the flashers in his grill. They do it for about 30 seconds then move onto someone else. Last time it happened the ghost truck moved on, rode some other guys ass, he sped up, got pulled over. Now maybe they are just riding ass to get a close view of the plates so they can run them? I dunno.

[killramos]

Originally posted by OU812

Would you not assume that's what they do??

If only there was an article somewhere explaining to you why that is exactly what they do not do.

:rolleyes:

They also shouldn't take care of this internally. They should have to go to traffic court like everyone else and present their evidence to a judge who can decide if they were in the wrong or not.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by killramos
They also shouldn't take care of this internally. They should have to go to traffic court like everyone else and present their evidence to a judge who can decide if they were in the wrong or not.

Paramedics and firefighters as well right?

[killramos]

Originally posted by FraserB


Paramedics and firefighters as well right?

Paramedics and firefighters don't have the widespread nature of the problem but sure. Fire truck driver caught speeding or running a light when not on route to an emergency they definitely should be paying their firms and treated like any other driver.

[Sentry]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


So does a ghost car riding my ass to get me to speed up count as executing duties? 3 times I have had my ass ridden by a ghost truck on deerfoot. Close enough that I can make out the flashers in his grill. They do it for about 30 seconds then move onto someone else. Last time it happened the ghost truck moved on, rode some other guys ass, he sped up, got pulled over. Now maybe they are just riding ass to get a close view of the plates so they can run them? I dunno.
You do have to be pretty freaking close to read a plate. No excuse for tailgating though, they can just as easily read it from one lane over.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by killramos


Paramedics and firefighters don't have the widespread nature of the problem but sure. Fire truck driver caught speeding or running a light when not on route to an emergency they definitely should be paying their firms and treated like any other driver.

Your comment made it sound like you wanted every instance of red light violation or speeding to go to court and have them decide. You also can't use the word "emergency" since it is not applicable at all to the situations being discussed.

[eglove]

Doesn't surprise me at all. Nothing will change

[lilmira]

Photographs of CPS vehicles speeding or running red lights are automatically filtered into an internal disciplinary system for review. Once there, tickets are seldom issued, even when officers admit to their supervisors that they have no good reason to break the law. “I would suggest that probably our internal process is more robust and has more implications than anything the public would get,” said Brookwell.

That's some robust internal process. What's the internal disciplinary action? Not being greeted by the colleagues for two days?

[killramos]

Originally posted by FraserB


Your comment made it sound like you wanted every instance of red light violation or speeding to go to court and have them decide. You also can't use the word "emergency" since it is not applicable at all to the situations being discussed.

No of course not. They can always just pay the fine or talk to the justice of the peace :rofl: . LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

You seem to think its 100% OK for any Fire, Police, or Ambulance driver to ignore any and all traffic laws they see fit so long as they are on the clock.

I do not agree with that position.

It would be must easier and more effective to do my job if i could get to site twice as fast. Maybe when I'm in a company truck i should be exempt for speeding laws?

Emergencies are the circumstance in which they are allowed to violate the law. There is no reason why an officer needs to drive 20 over the speed limit while patrolling a neighborhood.

Maybe that's not how the law is written, i don't really care. It is the spirit of the exemption.

[BavarianBeast]

c5fts7bj-so

[phil98z24]

Wow. I wouldn't wipe my butt with the paper that article is written on. I cannot believe how much outright lying by omission, word smithing, and spin doctoring there is in that. It's so factually incorrect I don't even know where to begin.

I would correct this but you guys have your minds made up, and it wouldn't matter even if you didn't - I'm part of the conspiracy, the vast machine that protects police in this country. Brutal. Another conviction in the court of public opinion, before the facts are even presented!

What a joke. Even when we are doing our jobs right, we still aren't doing them in a way that people approve of, therefore, it's the wrong way. This kind of trash "investigative reporting" absolutely angers me, and the fact that you guys are reacting this way is astonishing. No benefit of the doubt, no consideration for what might actually be happening and how we do our jobs. Good to see you have faith in your police.

I'm outta here.

[killramos]

Originally posted by phil98z24
Wow. I wouldn't wipe my butt with the paper that article is written on. I cannot believe how much outright lying by omission, word smithing, and spin doctoring there is in that. It's so factually incorrect I don't even know where to begin.

I would correct this but you guys have your minds made up, and it wouldn't matter even if you didn't - I'm part of the conspiracy, the vast machine that protects police in this country. Brutal. Another conviction in the court of public opinion, before the facts are even presented!

What a joke. Even when we are doing our jobs right, we still aren't doing them in a way that people approve of, therefore, it's the wrong way. This kind of trash "investigative reporting" absolutely angers me, and the fact that you guys are reacting this way is astonishing. No benefit of the doubt, no consideration for what might actually be happening and how we do our jobs. Good to see you have faith in your police.

I'm outta here.

Peace Phil, I'm not even criticizing the officers in this situation. Rather the framework, that as presented, indicates in many cases officers have been able to get away with traffic violations while in their jobs in circumstances that indicated their own wrongdoing.

How else can the general public know how the system works interally aside from freedom of information requests?

My point was by and large police officers, while working and driving a police car. Should have to abide by the TSA like everyone else except when an emergency situation requires that they violate the law. And that if a police officer is caught violating the law without having a good reason not only should they be responsible for paying the fine but should be reprimanded like any other professional driver.

If you are saying that's how it actually works then that's great.

It is jut extremely suspect that these tickets get thrown out or not issued without having to go through appropriate legal proceedings. A judge is who should decide if a violation was justified. Not an internal review. :dunno:

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by killramos


You seem to think its 100% OK for any Fire, Police, or Ambulance driver to ignore any and all traffic laws they see fit so long as they are on the clock.


Its Paramedic, jerk :drama: :thumbsup:

And we don't ignore traffic laws, we are stretched thin like anyone else, and get complaints about how long it takes Ambulances to arrive at calls, so at times it happens that we, like you, may speed a little to help out. Its not like we're a Cable company truck, or a UPS man, this is human lives we are talking about (that goes for all 3, EMS, CPS, and CFD). You make it sound like all we do is drive balls to the wall, run stops, park in handicap spots, etc. Unless you know what the duties are in the "execution of our duties", I find it hard to see relevance in your concern.

[zipdoa]

Is it far-fetched to consider that getting away with misdemeanors is a perk of the job? We've all heard stories of off-duty officers getting out of speeding tickets, even a DUI, because they're one of the boys.

When you hear stories of officers whistleblowing and speaking up, and then the rest of the force neglecting to supply them with backup, it's not an encouraging thought to entertain:

As a legitimate question phil98z24, coming from someone who is NOT a cop-basher (I have family and friends on the force) - does this culture exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence



Rookie Cop takes heat for arresting off duty officer (Canada) (http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2012/05/30/rookie_cop_takes_heat_for_arresting_offduty_officer.html)

Baltimore Police Whistleblower (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-crystal-whistleblower-ratgate-lawsuit-20141223-story.html)

Former Edmonton Cop whistleblower (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/former-edmonton-cop-derek-huff-blows-whistle-on-brutality-corruption-1.1871353)

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


So does a ghost car riding my ass to get me to speed up count as executing duties? 3 times I have had my ass ridden by a ghost truck on deerfoot. Close enough that I can make out the flashers in his grill. They do it for about 30 seconds then move onto someone else. Last time it happened the ghost truck moved on, rode some other guys ass, he sped up, got pulled over. Now maybe they are just riding ass to get a close view of the plates so they can run them? I dunno.

They do that intentionally to get you to speed up then pull you over. Happened to me once but never got the ticket.

Anyways, back on topic... All I'm going to say is what my friend said after we watched 2 RCMP cruisers drag race on Geatz Ave southbound in Red Deer a few years ago... "They're the law! They can do whatever they want!"

[killramos]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


Its Paramedic, jerk :drama: :thumbsup:

And we don't ignore traffic laws, we are stretched thin like anyone else, and get complaints about how long it takes Ambulances to arrive at calls, so at times it happens that we, like you, may speed a little to help out. Its not like we're a Cable company truck, or a UPS man, this is human lives we are talking about (that goes for all 3, EMS, CPS, and CFD). You make it sound like all we do is drive balls to the wall, run stops, park in handicap spots, etc. Unless you know what the duties are in the "execution of our duties", I find it hard to see relevance in your concern.

I don't think you do that at all. I was criticizing FraserB's take on how the law is written. About how so long as they are working they can ignore the TSA.

Now I do think there are occasional abuses that have nothing to do with performing their job more effectively and in those cases the emergency services personnel should be held accountable. Just like anyone else who drives a vehicle in the course of their employment.

[mr2mike]

How is this news?!

More better use is track taxi and transit infractions.

[prosh]

I find it amusing seeing CPS in their marked police cruisers run a red light and then turn into the parking lot of Tim Hortons to meet up with their coworkers inside. Not sure if they don't think anyone will question or not notice their actions on the street.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by killramos


I don't think you do that at all. I was criticizing FraserB's take on how the law is written. About how so long as they are working they can ignore the TSA.

Now I do think there are occasional abuses that have nothing to do with performing their job more effectively and in those cases the emergency services personnel should be held accountable. Just like anyone else who drives a vehicle in the course of their employment.

My interpretation is not that they can break the TSA whenever they are working and the law isn't written that way either. People need to understand the difference between "execution of duties" and "emergency", which are two very different things.

My take is that if they can justify breaking the TSA during the execution of their duties, then it is acceptable. The fact that CPS members are getting tickets for violations is proof that there is a system in place to audit whatever violations do occur and those that are not justified are dealt with. I'd be willing to bet that the internal ramifications are worse than having to deal with a speeding ticket.

[Crazyjoker77]

old but feel its relevant here and always good for a chuckle.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/01/21/lead-footed-calgary-cops-under-investigation-after-alleged-race-to-tim-hortons

I think its issues like this that really hurt police agencies images. They are caught red handed and the whole thing is brushed off.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
So does a ghost car riding my ass to get me to speed up count as executing duties? 3 times I have had my ass ridden by a ghost truck on deerfoot. Close enough that I can make out the flashers in his grill. They do it for about 30 seconds then move onto someone else.
Slam brakes because you "saw a cat".

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by jwslam

Slam brakes because you "saw a cat".

I have considered brake checking them but I'm in a rather rare A3 3.2. An Audi branded R32 with only 60k on the ODO. Wouldn't be able to replace it. They are in a truck that is not their property. It would hurt me more than them if I got rear ended. I just white knuckle it until they piss off.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by jwslam

Slam brakes because you "saw a cat".

Right. Then get the shit kicked out of you because they "saw a weapon".

[Rat Fink]

.

[sr20s14zenki]

Im an idiot and dont read... (=

[C_Dave45]

I couldn't give a shit if cops bypass the odd photo radar here and there. It's not like they're getting caught roaring through residential streets at 90 kmh or tearing down the deerfoot at 169 kmh.
Everyone pisses and moans that photo radar and red light cams are nothing but a tax grab and speeding here and there has nothing to do with being a safe driver, but the second you hear about a cop getting his plate snapped by a camera "OMG WHAT ABOUT THE DANGERS TO SOCIETY!!??? THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!!"
Yes let's tie up the court systems further by making every single cop, on every single photo radar have to go in and take it to court and cross reference duty calls, shift times just to confirm that "yes he was on his way to a call, or speeding up to a car he saw do something illegal". Obviously the majority of these "offences" will be during their performance of duties, and I don't doubt there will be the odd instance of just speeding a bit too much and getting flashed, but it's ridiculous to nitpick these instances. Talk about "straining out gnats, while gulping down camels".
(you'll probably need to Google that reference)

[firebane]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


So does a ghost car riding my ass to get me to speed up count as executing duties? 3 times I have had my ass ridden by a ghost truck on deerfoot. Close enough that I can make out the flashers in his grill. They do it for about 30 seconds then move onto someone else. Last time it happened the ghost truck moved on, rode some other guys ass, he sped up, got pulled over. Now maybe they are just riding ass to get a close view of the plates so they can run them? I dunno.

Uhm... Why are you allowing yourself to be pushed on the road? Move over or go the speed limit and fuck whoever is behind you. If you are doing the speed limit they can't do shit.

[120Comm]

Originally posted by killramos
Fire truck driver caught speeding or running a light when not on route to an emergency they definitely should be paying their firms and treated like any other driver.

They most certainly are. If a fire truck or ambulance is in a photo radar or intersection camera picture, the first thing that's done is to identify the unit and then cross-reference against call records to determine if it was assigned to an incident at the time. If it wasn't, investigations proceed from there.

[?????]

j5Es1RiupA0

[quick_scar]

With the increase in traffic fines, they need to start enforcing this better. Prentice has to balance his budget one way or another.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
I have police friends who get photo radar tickets all the time while on duty. The time in the pic is cross referenced with dispatch records. If they weren't responding to a call, they get the ticket. Of course you guys won't believe me though.

Yup, and we got ours all the time too, they set up traps constantly close to one of my stations, we were given 3 in one shift...The nature of the camera and the LED emergency lights is that its sometimes quite hard to get the lights on in the picture....so we get told about them, and they get referenced to a call we were on or whatever.....The 64th ave by falconridge intersection cam was another bad one for us....such a busy area, so many pictures

[frizzlefry]

As a tax payer the police et all are my employees. The folks in who pay the salaries where I work get daily reports on how fast our transport guys drive so what about making the information on tickets issued to CPS/Fire/Ambulance publicly available? We are paying the salaries after all. It would likely shoot down any inflammatory articles such as the OP posted and, besides, we should have right to see that info especially given the fact that we share streets with them.

[codetrap]

.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by codetrap
They're not your employee any more than the gas station attendant is your employee.

How you figure? Gas stations are not crown corp so obviously they are not my employee. The police are paid with public funds. Ergo, our employees. Are we their bosses? No. But the board of directors and investors in my company aren't my boss either. But if they want to see where my department spends its money they will damn well see it. And they do, their money, they get quarterly reports for every dime.

As do we with the CPS if we want to view the budget. If they are being internally ticketed than the heavy lifting for that data is done. Should be a simple Data -> filter -> tickets -> traffic cams -> subject -> CPS -> display. Then file -> export -> CPS_tickets.csv. Then upload for public consumption.

My board of directors, while not my boss or anyone elses, get safety reports every month for all employees. I want the same thing from the people I bankroll. I want to know whos speeding, who's being unjustly unsafe.

The whole "we get ticketed" but when asked for stats get told to fuck off is what makes people suspicious. If the work is being done to ticket CPS then the data is there. Just export it. Ta-Da.

[theken]

way to show a video in washington. All of the nitpickers always show american police stats and videos, who gives a fuck.

[googe]

Originally posted by firebane
Uhm... Why are you allowing yourself to be pushed on the road? Move over or go the speed limit and fuck whoever is behind you. If you are doing the speed limit they can't do shit.

you're the worst kind of human for doing this, even worse than lawbreaking cops.

[codetrap]

.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by codetrap
For your company, how does one get to be in the board of directors? Or how can a minority shareholder demand information from the company? Would your company provide intimate details of your teams budget to a single shareholder if they wanted to see what your expenses were of individual staff? Probably not. In the grand scheme, we are individual shareholders holding each 1/4.1M shares. Not really in a position to demand anything.

I will agree with that statement. However, if the public owners of said company had a concern brought to their attention by the media about the company they invest in (whether it be 1 share or 10k) and the company ignores it what do you think would happen?

In this case I don't think anyone is really asking for individual information on certain officers but the argument that we as taxpayers only contribute to 1/1.4m (just working off your example) of the budget for the CPS and therefore are not really in a position to demand accountability is BS. So the larger the population the less accountability public services have to the people because each person's tax contribution is more diluted? Come on...

In this case a public media entity has made a claim. And the public has shown interest in said claim. If the CPS has stats to refute the claims then make it public. It should be easy.

If they don't have the stats then they, honestly, don't have a clue as to whether their officers are getting away with it or not. Policy is policy, what actually happens is something else entirely.

To say "its our policy to.." is a load of crap. Every company/business/agency etc has "policies". My company has a policy against speeding yet we bust 10 drivers a month doing it. And we have those numbers. Because we document them. And we share them with bidders and clients. Because we understand accountability. And we are not even in the "don't speed" business.

[Nitro5]

https://www.calgarypolicecommission.ca

Here's your board that represents the public.

[codetrap]

.

[Maxt]

Do Police take special driver training that allows them to use electronic devices while they drive?

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by codetrap
To go back to your example, this to me is the same as demanding the stats on how much coffee is wasted by your drivers in the course of an average day.

Just my thoughts, and take it for what it's worth. ;)

Well it's not really. A wasted cup of coffee is far different than someone violating traffic laws without reason on roads they share with the public. On top of that, speed is cited as the "cause" or "factor" in collisions to justify a revenue stream. This is not only a safety issue the public should be aware of but it also could serve to undermine an unjust revenue stream or at least call into doubt the black or white enforcement of proprietary speed limits when their own members could be doing the same thing without lights/sirens. To the untrained eye a "ghost" car is given the same leeway and allowances as any other car. So if they speed without lights then they are no different than any other speeding jackass in a truck. As Clarkson said, speed doesn't kill you. Suddenly stopping does. And why do speeders suddenly stop? Because another driver, in the absence of lights and sirens, zigged when they should have zagged into a speeding vehicle and *slam*.

If this is happening we ought to know and if speed does play a factor in collisions than any excessive speed by CPS should be advertised to other drivers on the road so they are aware. If its not then the police are just another speeding asshole that someone may accidentally get in the way of while driving their Corolla because they figured fellow cars were doing 60 and not 110.


Originally posted by Maxt
Do Police take special driver training that allows them to use electronic devices while they drive?

Unless they grow a second pair of eyeballs than no training on using devices while they drive can allow for eyes on task.

[FullFledgedYYC]

Originally posted by Maxt
Do Police take special driver training that allows them to use electronic devices while they drive?

No, it's just the CPS motto: "We aren't the law, we are above it"

[codetrap]

.

[googe]

If speeding isn't dangerous, why do we get tickets at all for it? Or, it isn't dangerous when cops do it?

It's just hilariously hypocritical.

[revelations]

Its a fine line - I can tell you what happens in the real world though:

- COP A drives like a maniac all the time, gets radar tickets on a regular basis. He will end up with a few warnings from his Sargent or watch commander and, ultimately, end up crashing too often or get enough warnings about driving conduct (public phoning in) and will end up driving a desk.

- COP B drives like old granny, always at the limit. Sargent and fellow members take notice of how long they take to arrive at a routine call (not code 3) . Not good for long-term career moves as member loyalty is always paramount. Nobody wants to have the slowest guy on their team.


So the member who speeds a little bit, maybe gets a few tickets a year (quashed) is essentially what the CPS are looking for.

Thats fine by me.

Many people already complain about the response time, this is one reason why cops cant win.
Drive 100% safe and complaints about response time go up, drive fast and complaints about speeding go up.