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ExtraSlow
04-06-2015, 07:36 PM
We've all seen debates on contentious issues spiral out of control here on our beloved beyond.ca, on facebook, and even in our homes and workplaces. What makes groups of seemingly reasonable people devolve into slavering morons during debates? I don't know the answer to that, but we may be able to avoid more of these debates in the future if we can define a useful process for reaching a meaningful verdict on these contentious issues.

Dilbert creator Scott Adams is designing and testing just such a process. He has termed this "the Rationality Engine". In his own words, here is the outline:

Originally posted by Scott Adams
LINK to Scott Adams' Blog post (http://blog.dilbert.com/post/115299602036/rationality-engine-for-assisted-dying-prep-phase)

The Rationality Engine attempts to turn the uninformed and irrational opinions of the public into a coherent verdict via a system that has the following features:
Rationality Engine

1. Public debate, with comments that can be up-voted, and no end to the debate. It is a living document.

2. Curator who explains his/her biases.

3. A format that includes simple claims, usually in one sentence, followed by the curator’s verdict and reasoning. Relevant links will be cited so the reader can check the reasoning for the verdict.

4. The curator updates the living debate as new and useful links, arguments, and insights occur on all sides.

5. The curator can not be a member of an organized political group because it would taint credibility. Ideally, the curator’s livelihood should benefit more from being unbiased than from holding a particular view.

6. Phase one is a call for links and arguments that the curator can sort and summarize to get the conversation started.


Now Scott has taken considerable time to test this process against several contentious issues. I've read the results and been impressed. I think it's worth your time to read them as well. Here's the first question he worked on:
- how it could be true that studies consistently show bias against woman while studies on pay gap do not reflect that bias (according to strangers on the the Internet). Clearly someone is wrong. But who?
LINK to the Verdict on Gender Bias in the Workplace (http://blog.dilbert.com/post/114055529676/my-verdict-on-gender-bias-in-the-workplace)


I will admit, I have a selfish motive for wanting this process to work. I see the threads pop up every few days about anthropogenic global warming and it's dangerous consequences. I truly do consider myself an environmentalist, but I am confused. I honestly can't even decide which side of the argument "sounds right" to me, as a well educated and generally level-headed human. I wish there was a was to "know" the answer, and then, to know what to do with that information. Also, I find the kinds of people who are most willing to engage in debates of this type to be supremely annoying. I have most of them blocked on beyond.ca.

So, what do you folks think, Can this process, or one like it, work to give definitive answers to these contentious debates?

Sugarphreak
04-06-2015, 07:44 PM
...

ZenOps
04-06-2015, 09:36 PM
I win.

Instilling doubt is a specialty. I can wear down even the strongest believer that man landed on the moon 45 years ago.

I can even convince people that the Canadian flag was nearly red white and blue in 1967, even without colour photography as proof.

Thales of Miletus
04-06-2015, 09:42 PM
Too many people are guilty of motivated reasoning and are not self aware.

Motivated reasoning is strategy of tacit justification. It is used to mollify cognitive dissonance. In other words, "rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe."

People who are not aware that they are regulating their emotions, via confirmation bias. Have brains that focus on decisions that minimize the negative states associated with threat to the attainment of motives.

Emotion plus logic is the basis for reasoning. But because some people let fear become their greatest emotion. The reactions, which can be generated from fear, become common.

This is why corporations use fear to promote any of their propaganda.

For example, They use the fear of being jobless, or of a slowed economy, to program people into rejecting climate change for example.

And as we all know fear, generates fight or flight is a black and white emotional state.

Thales of Miletus
04-06-2015, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by ZenOps
I win.

Instilling doubt is a specialty. I can wear down even the strongest believer that man landed on the moon 45 years ago.


Man landed on the moon. You can see lander tracks from Earth.

Tik-Tok
04-06-2015, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by ExtraSlow

So, what do you folks think, Can this process, or one like it, work to give definitive answers to these contentious debates?

I would say no, because aside from the fact that finding a completely unbiased "curator" would be impossible, even if it were, the "losing" side would accuse the curator of being biased.

Feruk
04-07-2015, 07:55 AM
No chance in real life. The problem is that on any issue there is always a group that stands to lose money, so they will print disinformation as long as they can. The disinformation will be carefully vetted to sound like "reasonable doubt", and the average person doesn't look into credibility of those trying to create doubt.

A perfect example in today's world would be the "debate" between the consensus of climate scientists and the propaganda machine spun by special interests on global warming/climate change. What's scary is that while the debate is long over, I bet about 1/3 of Beyonders still think global warming is mostly natural. These same Beyonders would've likely been arguing in the 1960's that there was no evidence lead was bad in gasoline, or that smoking was harmful.

ExtraSlow
04-07-2015, 11:45 AM
Interesting that the poll results don't align with the responses currently.

Tik-Tok
04-07-2015, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Interesting that the poll results don't align with the responses currently.

I didn't vote before posting, my bad.

ExtraSlow
04-08-2015, 12:52 PM
I still see several people incorrectly failed to choose the third poll option. Oh well.

Of the "it won't work" camp, did anyone take the time to read the Scott Adams blog posts? He's pretty entertaining IMO, so it's worth your time even aside from discussing it here.

Current score 5/5/0/0.

Thales of Miletus
04-08-2015, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I still see several people incorrectly failed to choose the third poll option. Oh well.

Of the "it won't work" camp, did anyone take the time to read the Scott Adams blog posts? He's pretty entertaining IMO, so it's worth your time even aside from discussing it here.

Current score 5/5/0/0.

I read it and found it interesting. The problem I see however is what I mentioned. That problem is motivated thinking. That form of thinking makes it impossible to discuss topics rationally. To change a persons mind with rational discussion, they first must have formed their opinions with rational thought.

I believe many people do not think. They believe they do, but in reality they are programmed.

An existential view of the world. But imo sad but true.

themack89
04-08-2015, 03:48 PM
Voted for option 4, Airplane will not take off (and really shouldn't takeoff):

People don't really change their beliefs, even if presented with information that logically refutes their beliefs. People are also emotional creatures who infrequently apply rationality, not rational creatures who frequently apply emotion. With that said, it may even be counter productive, in many instances, to use rational and logical processes to move a discussion forward or to try and affect change.

*Edit.. I realize I echoed a few of the things Thales said, in a different way. Oh well.

The whole premise of the rationality engine seems to align supreme rationality and logic with the teleology of man kind. This is ugly, more or less, because the beauty of being human is the imperfection of our decisions, actions and conclusions. It isn't rational to risk the lives of an entire platoon to avoid leaving a man behind, but we do it anyways--it's our condition. If you remove that, what separates us from the very devices we are writing these responses on?