Omar Khadr

[ZenOps]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/omar-khadr-free-on-bail-vows-to-prove-he-is-a-good-person-1.3065692

Discuss?

[heavyfuel]

There has to be a much bigger agenda that we don't know about, seems to me the CIA would have taken care of this guy a long time ago.

[Nitro5]

Unfortunate child caught up in a world of evil. His formative years were spend with his hate filled parents then Guantanamo. I hoe for the best, but he maybe too twisted to ever recover.

[toastgremlin]

What's the world coming to when the government can't invent privilege and contravene its own laws to keep a scary brown man off the streets for an arbitrarily long period of time?

We shouldn't have to provide evidence, we know what's good for you.

[mazdavirgin]

We should have revoked his citizenship and his families citizenship. Deported their asses back to where they came from. He comes from a long family line of terrorists and Muslim extremists. We don't need people like them in our country.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
We should have revoked his citizenship and his families citizenship. Deported their asses back to where they came from. He comes from a long family line of terrorists and Muslim extremists. We don't need people like them in our country.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0a/0a077a3d903901d10f1e150a34accbdddeecc18537c4ee7122bf683df446287d.jpg

[jabjab]

looks like a nice guy:dunno:

[FraserB]

A few of the news sites have made a point that I think is relevant. This really has the potential to harm Canada's ability to repatriate citizens from other countries to serve prison terms here. In the future it's possible they'll just tell our government that a Canadian imprisoned abroad will serve their sentence there since we'll just release them once they get back to Canada.

[finboy]

Imo they had crap evidence to lock him up, about time they released him. I have no doubt he will be heavily monitored, hopefully he can finally make something out of his life and not be a pawn for his family, or a convenient scape goat for the us/canadian government to play hot potato with.

[Feruk]

Without a confession, there would've likely been no conviction. His options were either to stay in Gitmo for an indefinite period of time (he'd already been held without charge for 10 YEARS), or confess and be transferred to Canada. His story is an example of the total and utter failure of the US justice system. He should've been either charged in a public setting and given a chance to defend himself in front of a jury of his own peers or freed a decade ago.

This whole idea that somehow a "terrorist" should not be entitled to the same rights as everyone else is just fucking ludicrice. Hell, if I was in charge, I'd name anyone who disagreed with me a "terrorist", paint them as evil in the media, and have them held indefinitely without charge forever. Why the fuck not? Except wait... it's already been added to the dictator handbook (see: Assad).

[heavyfuel]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
We should have revoked his citizenship and his families citizenship. Deported their asses back to where they came from. He comes from a long family line of terrorists and Muslim extremists. We don't need people like them in our country.



Originally posted by spikerS


http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0a/0a077a3d903901d10f1e150a34accbdddeecc18537c4ee7122bf683df446287d.jpg

X2. And serious, to be clear.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Xtrema]

Give him benefit of the doubt that he just got bad luck with a jihadist dad. Hope he will integrate going forward.

That said, I'm sure the intelligence community will put him on a watch list and general public will still has an axe to grind against him. His life won't be easy.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
...And yet his language getting out sounds remorseful?

I never said he didn't do it. Just that he was never given a fair trial where someone could actually prove he did it.

[zipdoa]

Vice had an amazing article on this in 2013:

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/omar-khadr-war-criminal-child-soldier-or-neither


Omar Khadr made his first appearance in a Canadian court on Monday. After an 11-year journey from Bagram to Guantánamo to Canada's Millhaven Institution, the Toronto-born man is now in Edmonton's federal prison. He was 15 when he was captured and tortured at Bagram. He turned 27 last Thursday.

If you’re not familiar with the case it goes loosely as follows: When the Americans first arrested Omar in Afghanistan, he was accused of throwing a grenade that killed an American solider. For eight years he maintained his innocence, until he signed a plea deal in 2010 that got him out of Guantanamo. Omar was then convicted of five counts of war crimes for his actions, which were not recognized as such anywhere else in the world including Canada.

Omar’s case is wildly complex. While the American solider he is accused of killing was certainly killed by a grenade, there is no evidence showing that Omar ever had or threw one. While Omar certainly did confess to these crimes, it was after eight years of torture and given his option to either insist he’s innocent and stay in Gitmo, or confess to the crimes and see a judge in Canada, it certainly sounds like the terms of his confession were problematic at best.

All of this is important to note, especially in light of the recent Hamdan appeal in the US—which refers to the case of Osama Bin Laden’s former driver whose terrorism charges were thrown out—that pointed out war crimes tried by the Commission must be internationally recognized. This verdict may end up being leveraged effectively in the Omar Khadr case.

The Canadian Supreme Court has even ruled that our government violated Omar’s rights, but left the remedy up to the Harper government who of course declined to provide any solution.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been making strong statements on the preferred outcome on the day of the trial, in an apparent attempt to influence the court proceedings. Harper has vowed to fight the case “vigorously,” and used almost the same phrasing as that of Steven Blaney, Canada’s Minister of Public Safety.

Omar's counsel, Dennis Edney, was in court to argue that he should be transferred to a provincial institution from a federal institution due to his age when the alleged crimes took place. In a confusing instance of legal doublespeak, the Crown’s prosecutors are arguing that Omar has not really been sentenced to eight years, but rather to five eight-year sentences served at the same time. Associate Chief Justice J.D. Rook has reserved judgment to a currently undetermined future date.

[frizzlefry]

Still don't understand how throwing a grenade at a soldier in a war zone during a war would make him anything other than an enemy combatant.

[Anomaly]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
Still don't understand how throwing a grenade at a soldier in a war zone during a war would make him anything other than an enemy combatant.

It's called Treason, and it usually equals a life sentence.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Anomaly
It's called Treason, and it usually equals a life sentence.
He was living in Afghanistan. Canada wasn't at war with the Taliban or Al-Qaida. How is it treason?

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Feruk

He was living in Afghanistan. Canada wasn't at war with the Taliban or Al-Qaida. How is it treason?

It could actually be interpreted as High Treason, S.46 of the Criminal Code. Living in Afghanistan doesn't make any difference.

Even if there was no state of war declared, Canadian Forces were still involved in hostilities with the Taliban and al-Qaeda

[Feruk]

Originally posted by FraserB
It could actually be interpreted as High Treason, S.46 of the Criminal Code. Living in Afghanistan doesn't make any difference.

Even if there was no state of war declared, Canadian Forces were still involved in hostilities with the Taliban and al-Qaeda
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-46/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-46.html


High treason
46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.


Really not convinced "terror" is a country. :nut:

[Manhattan]

Seems like a chill dude

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by FraserB


It could actually be interpreted as High Treason, S.46 of the Criminal Code. Living in Afghanistan doesn't make any difference.

Even if there was no state of war declared, Canadian Forces were still involved in hostilities with the Taliban and al-Qaeda

Don't mean to risk attracting any nuts to this conversation but if no war was declared, and the USA charged this guy with murder for tossing the grenade at soldiers in a combat zone, then...would the Americans be guilty of "murdering" enemy combatants they killed?

I do not like this guy's family. But I do consider him a child soldier who was an enemy combatant. In my mind he was a POW who was subjected to mental stresses in order to convict him of crimes a POW should not be convicted off. Let alone a child soldier. The "war" is over. I think he deserves to come home. :dunno:

[Anomaly]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Don't mean to risk attracting any nuts to this conversation but if no war was declared, and the USA charged this guy with murder for tossing the grenade at soldiers in a combat zone, then...would the Americans be guilty of "murdering" enemy combatants they killed?

I do not like this guy's family. But I do consider him a child soldier who was an enemy combatant. In my mind he was a POW who was subjected to mental stresses in order to convict him of crimes a POW should not be convicted off. Let alone a child soldier. The "war" is over. I think he deserves to come home. :dunno:

It's not that uncommon, there wasn't an official declaration of war in Vietnam or either Gulf Wars. Ultimately, he engaged NATO forces and is a Canadian citizen. In my mind that = high treason. He arguably was not a lawful combatant as defined by the Geneva convention and is therefore not protected by the Geneva convention. That said, I think his parents deserve much worse than him

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Anomaly


It's not that uncommon, there wasn't an official declaration of war in Vietnam or either Gulf Wars. Ultimately, he engaged NATO forces and is a Canadian citizen. In my mind that = high treason. He arguably was not a lawful combatant as defined by the Geneva convention and is therefore not protected by the Geneva convention. That said, I think his parents deserve much worse than him

But the definition of "lawful combatant", or lack thereof, was set by the Americans when they attacked without one. If no war is officially declared then everyone in that conflict was is a murder by that standard. Or everyone who lost I guess. It was clearly a war. Don't be dumb.

Looking at the Geneva convention he was certainly a child soldier. Or does the USA have to file an official "we are at war" document to have children excluded as potential targets?

*USA Bombs Moscow* "oh yeah, well..uhh...we didn't officially declare war...sooo those dead kids? Yeah not a war crime. Suck my ass"

:nut:

[FraserB]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
I do not like this guy's family. But I do consider him a child soldier who was an enemy combatant. In my mind he was a POW who was subjected to mental stresses in order to convict him of crimes a POW should not be convicted off. Let alone a child soldier. The "war" is over. I think he deserves to come home. :dunno:

He shouldn't be considered a child soldier in the legal sense and wasn't entitled to the protections afforded to POWs as he was an unlawful combatant.

As for the ability to consider his actions high treason; Canadian Forces were engaged in hostilities with the Taliban, who were the ruling government in Afghanistan.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by FraserB


He shouldn't be considered a child soldier in the legal sense and wasn't entitled to the protections afforded to POWs as he was an unlawful combatant.

As for the ability to consider his actions high treason; Canadian Forces were engaged in hostilities with the Taliban, who were the ruling government in Afghanistan.

But if no war was declared, and the Geneva convention does not apply, then nobody was a lawful combatant. NATO included. Obviously NATO did not commit murder as it was a war. The reverse should also apply. You can't say NATO was at war but the people we were at war with were not. Its asinine.

You can't apply the Geneva convention to some but not all in a combat situation as it suits. This is clearly a case of the winning party defining the laws of combat in hindsight. Something the Geneva convention was designed to prevent. Doesn't matter if the yanks didn't file their TPS reports in regards to being officially at war. NATO was at war. He was a child soldier. Even treating him as a POW (which they also violated) was illegal under the Geneva convention.

[Anomaly]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


But the definition of "lawful combatant", or lack thereof, was set by the Americans when they attacked without one. If no war is officially declared then everyone in that conflict was is a murder by that standard. Or everyone who lost I guess. It was clearly a war. Don't be dumb.

Looking at the Geneva convention he was certainly a child soldier. Or does the USA have to file an official "we are at war" document to have children excluded as potential targets?

*USA Bombs Moscow* "oh yeah, well..uhh...we didn't officially declare war...sooo those dead kids? Yeah not a war crime. Suck my ass"

:nut:

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Right, wrong or otherwise It's very uncommon in a modern military conflict for those involved to formally declare war. Obviously it's a war. What makes him an unlawful combatant;

1) having a chain of command,
2) wearing a proper uniform or insignia
3) carry arms openly
4) obey the rules of war
Therefore not entitled to the same protections

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Anomaly


I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Right, wrong or otherwise It's very uncommon in a modern military conflict for those involved to formally declare war. Obviously it's a war. What makes him an unlawful combatant;

1) having a chain of command,
2) wearing a proper uniform or insignia
3) carry arms openly
4) obey the rules of war
Therefore not entitled to the same protections

The very same situation as the yanks did during the war of independence. Go tell a yank their war of independence wasn't a war. They had guys killing brits without official uniforms all the time. Its how they won.

Torture a POW, pull his fingernails out. Gouge his eyes out. Set him on fire. Wasn't wearing an official uniform? Ok. Not a war crime.

Its guerrilla warfare. Not illegal under the Geneva convention but they must follow the same laws. Including child combatants. Which Khadr was. Meaning as he is excluded from combat by principal and he is not responsible for not wearing an identifying insignia.

[ZenOps]

Do children sleep with identifyable military insignia in their own residence? Its unrealistic to me.

Sounds more like, he was chilling with his parents who arguably might have been war combatants for the other side.

Then some US military types jumped the building in the middle of the night after killing villagers in the rest of the town, and he threw the only weapon he could get his hands on, a grenade. Under that situation, I'd probably throw a grenade too. Who knows who could be jumping into the house, could be local hood rapists, could be a rabid pack animals, could be US soliders, could be a local faction that you are currently not friendly with coming to whack your head, could be ninjitsu girl scouts.

Reaction to being attacked in a warzone or not, is to defend. And lets not forget, the US is on soil that is not their own. If this happened in Florida instead of Ayub Kheyl, Afghanistan well yeah of course its completely different.

Omar states that he did not throw the grenade. I would not be suprised at all if one of the US soliders simply dropped their own grenade. It happens a ridiculous amount, when the pressure is on - even a NFL quarterback will drop a snapped ball every now and then (fumble once every 100 attempts or so)

KFyNjwmyUyY

[JustinL]

I know wikipedia isn't the be all and end all, but it provides a pretty good summary. That's a pretty messed up situation all around. No kidding the lawyers are having a field day with it. Give it a read if you've got a few minutes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

[finboy]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Do children sleep with identifyable military insignia in their own residence? Its unrealistic to me.

Sounds more like, he was chilling with his parents who arguably might have been war combatants for the other side.

Then some US military types jumped the building in the middle of the night after killing villagers in the rest of the town, and he threw the only weapon he could get his hands on, a grenade. Under that situation, I'd probably throw a grenade too. Who knows who could be jumping into the house, could be local hood rapists, could be a rabid pack animals, could be US soliders, could be a local faction that you are currently not friendly with coming to whack your head, could be ninjitsu girl scouts.

Reaction to being attacked in a warzone or not, is to defend. And lets not forget, the US is on soil that is not their own. If this happened in Florida instead of Ayub Kheyl, Afghanistan well yeah of course its completely different.

Omar states that he did not throw the grenade. I would not be suprised at all if one of the US soliders simply dropped their own grenade. It happens a ridiculous amount, when the pressure is on - even a NFL quarterback will drop a snapped ball every now and then (fumble once every 100 attempts or so)

KFyNjwmyUyY

Cbc had a documentary, independent study of the shrapnel that killed the us soldier found it to match up with an american designed grenade, not russian. Add to that, an American soldier that was there reported shooting an adult enemy combatant that was beside khadr who was basically in the fetal position, and then shot khadr.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by JustinL
I know wikipedia isn't the be all and end all, but it provides a pretty good summary. That's a pretty messed up situation all around. No kidding the lawyers are having a field day with it. Give it a read if you've got a few minutes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

Wow... was reading that and had to stop reading.

TLDR:

Americans turn an Afghan village into a shooting gallery because they saw some men with guns. Then they bomb the place. They find a kid in the survivors, shoot him in the back twice, and when he begs them to put him out of his misery, they take him away to torture him for 8 years for super secret information about Al-Qaeda, which of course any 15 year old lying in rubble would be privy to.

It'd be a miracle if Omar could still write his own fucking name.

Oh, and they "thought" he threw a grenade at soldiers because one was thrown and they figured he was the only one that could have done it. Except for maybe the dude standing beside him, before they killed him.

What a fucking mess. GO 'MERKA!!!!

[01RedDX]

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[JustinL]

Originally posted by ZenOps
[B]
Sounds more like, he was chilling with his parents who arguably might have been war combatants for the other side.


The U.S. considers any "military age male" in the vicinity of a strike zone to be considered an enemy combatant. Though I'm not sure if this loosey goosey terminology was in place when they bombed Omar Khadr, or if it only applies to the CIA and not the military.

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/

[Sugarphreak]

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[Sugarphreak]

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[Sugarphreak]

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[Sugarphreak]

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[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I don't think he should have been tortured, or anybody for that matter

However your graphic image is similar to the fate a lot of kids there met, either at the hands of the Taliban or as casualties of the allied invasion force. The only real difference is that he happened to have a Canadian citizenship.

And membership has it's privileges. Canada is his home, he is a citizen. And is enjoying the due process that comes from that. As he should.

It's clear the kid was a combatant in a war. Even if you disregard his age he was a POW and to charge a combatant in a war zone with murder for doing what soldiers do just seems stupid to me. :dunno:

POWs get to go home after a war. We should let him come home and be at home. And that completely disregards the fact that he was child soldier. The fact that he was a minor should carry even more weight.

Western civilizations have a problem with citizens being "radicalized" and leaving to join a foreign army. This guy wants back in, was a kid, it was not up to him. IMO this is a case where Canada should take the high road and forgive him. What about all those young kids who are on the fence about leaving? They see us throw the book at this guy and it only re-enforces an us vs them mentality. Affirms that religion is your nation and not Canada. Even from a PR perspective what Harper is doing is pretty stupid. And I'm a conservative.

Blaming him is like blaming the 16 year olds in those whacked out southern Baptists Jesus camps for saying they want fags to burn.

Canada has bailed this guy out. He could serve as a good example of what Canada is. The nice guy.

[googe]

He was still being raised by his father, going to camps where his father sent him, hanging out with who his father was with. They were obviously up to no good, and the kid was around when they were making bombs. He didn't plant them, as far as anyone knows. We would definitely be hearing about it if they had reason to believe he did. It's not like he independently went and enlisted.

Honestly, if someone almost killed me and had me locked up for 10 years and tortured, I'd probably want to get revenge upon release, so the fact that he can maintain his composure at all is pretty amazing.

His brother was also a CIA asset and has been free in Canada for a long time. He was even more involved with the Taliban and friends than this kid was.

All that aside, even if he did throw the grenade or shoot back, wtf are you supposed to do when some foreign soldiers are leveling your house? Is that really murder?