Los Angeles $15 minimum wage - soon.

[ZenOps]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/19/us-usa-wage-losangeles-idUSKBN0O42GV20150519

Passed 14 - 1, but still needs final approval.

$15 US is a very hefty upgrade from the $7.25 to $9 that the US tends to pay, and even less for the millions of illegals.

[ExtraSlow]

I find these concepts interesting. A $15 minimum wage here would still put your right around the poverty line, if you could get full-time hours. But you'd still be paying income tax on most of that income.

Does it make more sense for governments to work to increase wages for people below the poverty line, or to reduce thier tax burden?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I find these concepts interesting. A $15 minimum wage here would still put your right around the poverty line, if you could get full-time hours. But you'd still be paying income tax on most of that income.

Does it make more sense for governments to work to increase wages for people below the poverty line, or to reduce thier tax burden?

I assumed that one reason for raising minimum wages (here), was to collect more taxes, while looking like the "good guy" to those who earn that little.

Not only taxes from the min.wage earners, but from increased prices due to higher overhead on the business's that employee them, and all the way up the chain.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[ZenOps]

The locals in LA are reacting differently that I would have expected. Many "middle class" are complaining that they are getting squeezed out (not being able to afford a lawn)

$18.8 CAD here would seem a little bit high right now, but if instituted by 2020 - it might be about average (assuming a CAD to US at .8 average) I can't see the PC giving the green light to this within the next four years, which arguably might mean that people will switch to NDP on this issue alone.

With electricity at 17 US cents per KWH, and water rates set to increase dramatically there could be far more "Walmart store shutdowns for maintenance".

I'd be complaining a too, if I had to pay 20 cents CAD per kwh, and needed airconditioning to survive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.html The average age of a minimum age worker is actually 35. It seems that the sub-20 year olds have more or less joined the ranks of welfare and foodstamps and terminally unemployed which are around 93 million citizens in the US.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
...or being that it is LA, just hire illegals like everybody else for 50$ bucks a day

This. So no changes.

Mandating minimum wages will make everything more expensive and chase out some opportunities. But it's one way to tackle income inequality without raising taxes because the increases will be reflected in the products that cost may be passed to people out of the state.

Fact is, most major business that relies on minimum wages has moved and set up shop in Mexico anyway. So most of the jobs have already gone.

[HuMz]

Don't like this, we are already raising a new generation of kids who feel entitled and lack leadership skills. Mandating that they receive this kind of wage will only add to the problem.

CEOs and business owners have to do more to provide a good wage and share profits with the employees in boom times. I just don't think it should be mandated and spoon fed by the government.

[Feruk]

I'm all for minimum wage being a wage that someone can actually live on. If you work a 40 hour job, you should be able to pay rent, buy food, and have a little bit left over. I wouldn't call that "spoon feeding" or providing some sort of "entitlement." It's just enough money so you don't starve... I mean how the hell are you gonna go get an education if your 40 hour job doesn't pay enough for you to survive??

Thirty years ago, minimum wage was a wage you could survive on. For the ambitious, it was a temporary thing while you sought to improve yourself. Since then, the cost of living has gone up faster than minimum wage. This has to be rebalanced. Otherwise you create an ever-increasing gap in wealth, a desperate lower class, and sooner or later the powder keg explodes.

Look at all the truly fucked up places in the world... What they all have in common is a huge gap between the rich and the poor. I'll gladly pay a little more for my cheeseburger so we never see that here.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by Feruk
Thirty years ago, minimum wage was a wage you could survive on. For the ambitious, it was a temporary thing while you sought to improve yourself. Since then, the cost of living has gone up faster than minimum wage. This has to be rebalanced. Otherwise you create an ever-increasing gap in wealth, a desperate lower class, and sooner or later the powder keg explodes.
Pretty much, eventually we're gonna be fueling the mentality that you live better off unemployed than you do on min wage.

[Cos]

.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk
Look at all the truly fucked up places in the world... What they all have in common is a huge gap between the rich and the poor. I'll gladly pay a little more for my cheeseburger so we never see that here.

This is one of the problems with manipulating wages from outside the market, you increase the wages but then the price of the goods increase to pay for the higher wages, it's not just you that will be paying higher prices it's also the people that can afford food after the increase but will no longer afford it when the food prices rise and you will have a never ending cycle of raising wages because you're too daft to see the consequences of manipulating the market.

If an employer has 30$ budget for employees, and the min wage is 10$ he can hire 3 employees, at 15$ he can only hire 2, and WILL only hire 2. There is no statistics that show how many employees will not be hired because of a wage manipulation and because of that, no one thinks about it. No data to back it up so your little monkey brain doesn't even consider the notion.

What have you to say to the people that won't get jobs because of the min wage manipulating? Is it morally right to strip someone of their chance to get a job because you wanted higher wages for the other two workers? This is the consequences no one talks about.

The kid who lives with his parents and sits at home because he doesn't have the skills to provide 15$ per hour worth of value to any companies will never get the on the job training that will allow him to build a resume and get experience. The jobs he could be doing for 10$ per hour will never exist and he will sit waiting.

So to circle back to your post, YOU are the reason the min wage doesn't provide someone enough money to survive because you keep supporting wage manipulations.

[max_boost]

How is it working out in Australia? :dunno:

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by max_boost
How is it working out in Australia? :dunno:

Prices are higher in Australia as you would expect to pay for the high wage manipulations. Australians with no skills that can't find work hop a plane and go work in banff.

Consumer price index in Au is 10 percentage points above calgary.

Raise the wage to 30$ and watch prices go even higher.
How is this so hard to understand?

Not only does raising the min wage prevent extra people from entering the work force but the group of wages directly above min wage take a pay cut because food and rent goes up but their wage doesn't change.

High min wage also makes it free for employers to discriminate based on race or sex or any other factor they want to discriminate based on.
It's a law that makes racism free. We can talk about that when you can at least understand the basic notion that when costs go up, prices go up. Maybe a couple that make 16$ an hour move into a place they can finally afford, then you increase the min wage to 15$ and rent suddenly rises as a natural response, now you've fucked over this couple, just starting to get ahead and it's time to downgrade and now you have more competition for shitty places because suddenly there is a flood of people who can afford low rent places. Don't worry though, because you've signed a lease and they won't increase the rent on this couple for a few months and when their lease is finally up the market will have been totally dried up with everyone buying cheap places.

If you don't feel comfortable walking up to a group of min wage earners and stealing the wages of one and dividing it up and giving it to the others then you should not feel comfortable with min wage laws because that's exactly what you're doing. Put one worker on the street so that the other workers can buy an extra bottle of liquor each month.

[BandW]

Jesus fucking Christ your English is awful.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by max_boost
How is it working out in Australia? :dunno:

Different environment. Everything is more expensive because Australia is import heavy and run's a trade deficit in most of its existence. So it's not totally higher minimum wage's fault. Not only that, the huge migrant $ from China also screw with real estate and driving cost of living up. Making the higher minimum wage a necessary evil.

That said, $15/hr is a 30% increase. As long as $cdn stay in the 70-75 cent USD range (predicted by Meryl Lynch by Oct 2015), it's affordable.

I'm no economist but my feeling is this would have same effect as raising income tax by 5-7% but $ is redistributed to minimum wage earners instead of the government.

According stats can, 36% of Albertans (1M) has income level that's at the minimum wage level. Let's say only 50% of those are making minimum wage. That means, the minimum wage increase will cost around $4B to the business community.

It will be naive to think business won't react to this either by laid offs or passing the cost along.

[01RedDX]

.

[realazy]

The higher the cost of something, the more incentive to replace it with something cheaper.

I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing self ordering fast food restaurants here, it already exists in other countries. We will probably see more innovations to replace repetitive and simple jobs with technology.

[realazy]

Another issue is what is the minimum standard of living that people accept nowadays? Is a $500 smart phone with a $80/month plan "minimum standard"?

[codetrap]

.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by realazy
Another issue is what is the minimum standard of living that people accept nowadays? Is a $500 smart phone with a $80/month plan "minimum standard"?

$800 room rental
$400 food
$100 transportation
$100 phone
$100 random stuff

$1500 a month.

Minimum wage earner: $11*160 = $1760 before tax.

You can scrape by but it'll be tough. But I understand the "standard" argument.


Originally posted by realazy
I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing self ordering fast food restaurants here, it already exists in other countries. We will probably see more innovations to replace repetitive and simple jobs with technology.

That's coming no matter what. It's going be another revolution. AI and robot taking over and make 20-30% of human jobless. But that's another discussion.

I love going into a Macdonald with a ordering kiosk and just pick up from til when my number is up.

[sabad66]

Originally posted by codetrap
Isn't this already the case? EI pays $524/week. So.. $2168/month. Some dude working full time hours at $10.20 is making $1632/month... so, basically EI is paying you $13.10.


A&W already has them in place downtown.
You only get the max $524 if you were previously earning 50k per year or more (55% of earnings)

If you were earning minimum wage (21,216 per year) then your ei will be 224 per week

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Modelexis
This is one of the problems with manipulating wages from outside the market, you increase the wages but then the price of the goods increase to pay for the higher wages, it's not just you that will be paying higher prices it's also the people that can afford food after the increase but will no longer afford it when the food prices rise and you will have a never ending cycle of raising wages because you're too daft to see the consequences of manipulating the market.

If an employer has 30$ budget for employees, and the min wage is 10$ he can hire 3 employees, at 15$ he can only hire 2, and WILL only hire 2. There is no statistics that show how many employees will not be hired because of a wage manipulation and because of that, no one thinks about it. No data to back it up so your little monkey brain doesn't even consider the notion.

What have you to say to the people that won't get jobs because of the min wage manipulating? Is it morally right to strip someone of their chance to get a job because you wanted higher wages for the other two workers? This is the consequences no one talks about.

The kid who lives with his parents and sits at home because he doesn't have the skills to provide 15$ per hour worth of value to any companies will never get the on the job training that will allow him to build a resume and get experience. The jobs he could be doing for 10$ per hour will never exist and he will sit waiting.

So to circle back to your post, YOU are the reason the min wage doesn't provide someone enough money to survive because you keep supporting wage manipulations.

A job that doesn't provide a livable wage is not a job worth counting! In the downturn this year, we saw lots of people getting fired from high paying jobs, and yet overall we had job growth as a result of more low paying jobs. How is this a benefit to our economy? It is 100% morally right to strip someone of a job that doesn't pay enough to live on. Let's call it a "fake job."

Your insinuation of a "never ending cycle" is just utter nonsense. Minimum wage has been around for over a hundred years, and it has for the most part trended with inflation. Another raise will just mean a small increase in cost, some fake jobs will disappear, and everything will be pretty much the same. The cycle you speak of is just fear mongering nonsense from people that don't understand that the reason US/Canada/Europe has been so successful is a strong middle class.


Originally posted by Modelexis
High min wage also makes it free for employers to discriminate based on race or sex or any other factor they want to discriminate based on.
If there were any truth in that, you'd see companies that pay above minimum wage doing it all the time. I don't see that. If you somehow do, then a minimum wage wouldn't make a difference anyhow. :nut:


Originally posted by Xtrema
$800 room rental
$400 food
$100 transportation
$100 phone
$100 random stuff

$1500 a month.

Minimum wage earner: $11*160 = $1760 before tax.

You can scrape by but it'll be tough. But I understand the "standard" argument.
This assumes most people making minimum wage are single people in their 20's with zero kids. However, this is obviously not the case.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk
A job that doesn't provide a livable wage is not a job worth counting! How is this a benefit to our economy? It is 100% morally right to strip someone of a job that doesn't pay enough to live on. Let's call it a "fake job."

This is where you are completely not using your brain.
Min wage jobs are not about making a living, they are about gaining experience, skills and on the job training that they can build on to receive higher wages with experience.

When you are 15, 16, 17, 18 it is critical that you get training and experience and build a resume and get exposure dealing with the public and co workers.

This experience is priceless, that's why lots of the time you have interns that are being paid below the min wage. This is not that difficult to understand.

Not only that but a kid that lives with his parents and has all their bills paid for still needs job experience and still wants money, why should they be forced to sit at home making zero dollars when they could be making 10$ per hour.

The reason you have so many unemployed people with no skills and no job experience is because the min wage is too high and they're priced out of the market.

Some 18 year old kid living at home gets a part time job at 7$ per hour helping someone do autobody sanding, leans about the trade and gets on the job experience, meets other people in the industry and in a couple years he will quickly move up the ranks.
Force the autobody shop to pay 15$ and that job will never exist and that kid will never get that experience.

I will not be discussing discrimination with you until you understand the basic fundamentals of the job market.

When I was in high school I would have taken a job for 4$ per hour with relevant job training rather than the 6$ i was making at burgerking but because of the min wage those 4$ per hour jobs didn't exist.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Modelexis]

Just yesterday on a podcast a guy was talking about how he travels the world to work as a race marshal for zero wages. I think nurburgring is the only track that pays marshalling and even then it's about 100 euros.
The guy couch surfs and does all he can to make ends meet and as a result he gets the experience of a lifetime and gets free backstage passes to almost every major racetrack in the world.

The story doesn't really fit with the topic but it just illustrates how a job can look exploitative and not worth anyone's time or effort but yet you have people traveling the world on their own dime to do these jobs because they get the experience they're looking for in life.

Messing with wage manipulations has many unintended and unseen consequences that you will never know about because they won't exist.

The vast majority of Canadians push for a minimum wage and have never considered the implications morally, economically or otherwise. That's why it's so useless voting, you're up against a mob of idiots.

[ZenOps]

The moral implication of not allowing people a living wage is of course, armed revolution - where it becomes more profitiable to simply pickup a gun (AKA the somali pirate) even with the risks involved.

The US is definitely teetering. You can't have 92 million people out of work without some distortions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537585/More-Americans-not-working-92-million-people-workforce.html

The social assistance payments in the US are average at $256 per week.

[ZenOps]

There is also an underlying factor that many do not discuss. The idea that the US dollar, the CAD dollar, or dollars in general are not adequate motivation for work.

If you worked for Indian Rupee all your life, and watched Rupee buy 1000x times less oil in a lifetime - then you might not want to even take part in such a system. If you watched the CAD dollar buy 4x less beef in a decade, it starts to become obvious that the system that has been setup, might not be worth attaining.

The carrot dangling in front a rabbit only works if you are sure that the rabbit finds the carrot appealing. Is a million dollar house more appealing, even though it is the exact same house that your grandparents bought (and paid taxes on) when they bought it for $50,000? If its the same house, I would greatly like to have it appraised and taxed as a $50,000 house.

The numbers game is starting to come to a head. BTW: I missed the last Picasso, it went for not quite $180 million.

My great fear is that $15/hour will not be adequate enough incentive, and the US will continue into the 100 million+ unemployed range, or about half the citizenry US dollar unproductive.

[codetrap]

.

[pheoxs]

This would be a good read for you guys.

Calgary’s Living Wage Action Team has determined that an individual working full time (35 hours per week, 52 weeks a year) needs to make a minimum of $17.29/hour without benefits, or $16.14/hour with benefits to earn a Living Wage in Calgary.

http://www.vibrantcalgary.com/vibrant-initiatives/living-wage/living-wage-advocacy/living-wage-basics/



The living wage calculations are based on the Canadian Living Wage Framework developed by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. It is actually a pretty conservative budget and if you google the framework you can read it yourself. Here is the summary:
Living wage calculations are based on a family of 4 with two full-time income earners (working 70 hours per week), including day care for one child and after school care for one child. It assumes all members of the family are healthy and do not have any medical, behavioural or mental health conditions.

Household expenses (food etc.) are sourced from Statistics Canada's database that is used to create the Market Basket Measure. So, no, it does not include organic food and non-organic, generic brands would be included.

It assumes rental housing. Using the matrix presented above it would use rental rates for a home that is suitable for a family of four. The cost of housing comes from the CMHC.

Maintaining a "safe, decent, dignified" standard of living is defined as being able to consistently meet the family's basic needs (food security, ability to make monthly housing and utility payments, ability to pay for transportation etc. Transportation and education costs are sourced locally in each city as they can vary greatly. Those who live in the city are budgeted for a bus pass while the framework assumes that a car is necessary for those living in rural areas. If you commute from a rural area into the city for work then it accounts for the cost of driving a second-hand car from your rural home to the city limits and the cost of a bus pass within the city limits (no parking allotted). It also includes minimal recreation (aka the ability to take your kids to the pool or enrol them in community soccer - no allowances are made for anything beyond basic recreation like hockey, summer camp etc).
No, backpacking in Europe is not considered a future need or goal. In fact, beyond the ability for each parent to actually take the 2 weeks of vacation they earn at work (instead of working through it and getting it paid out) there are no allowances in the living wage calculation to account for family holidays.

The living wage calculation does not include any of the following items: • Credit card, loan or other debt/interest payments; • Savings for retirement; • Owning a home; • Savings for children’s future education; • Anything beyond minimal recreation, entertainment and holidays, • Costs of caring for a disabled, seriously ill, or elderly family member; or • Anything other than the smallest cushion for emergencies or hard times - that cushion is specifically defined as a total of 2 weeks of family earnings at a living wage (less than $2500 total).

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by pheoxs
This would be a good read for you guys.



Min wage jobs are not for people who are in a position where they need to earn a living. That's not what they're for. You were never meant to be able to support a family of four and live downtown Calgary while flipping burgers at A&W, that's not what the job was created for. That's like getting a job at A&W and expecting the job to boost your acting career, that's not what it's designed for. It's there for low skilled entry level employees who are looking for a job that requires no experience to begin to build skills that will later on in life help them earn a living.

If you're 15-30 and you live at home with your parents or with relatives or with friends or couch surf you don't need a full living wage according to statistics for someone who has no assistance in their life.

If Calgary living is too expensive for your lack of job skills, move to a small town where the living wage is smaller.

If $7 per hour is not enough to live on, quit your job and wait for a job opening that pays $15 if it's so important to make a living wage.

You don't need to force employers, you don't need any laws governing wages, just sit at home and wait for a job to open up that pays the wage you're looking for, because this is exactly what will happen when a min wage is raised.

Min wage laws do nothing to employ people who are not currently working, it makes it harder to find a job for unemployed people with shitty skills.

You can set your own personal min wage at 30$ per hour today if you want. just sit your lazy stupid unskilled ass on the couch and collect EI while you wait for someone to offer you a job at $30 per hour.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I find these concepts interesting. A $15 minimum wage here would still put your right around the poverty line, if you could get full-time hours. But you'd still be paying income tax on most of that income.

Does it make more sense for governments to work to increase wages for people below the poverty line, or to reduce thier tax burden?

Taxes need to be reduced for corporations who will pass on those savings to workers in the form of higher wages and more jobs.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ZenOps]

Shouldn't everyone who is willing to work start at a job that is capable of maintaining a basic living?

I mean really, its like giving half the water needed for a person to cross a desert. Those that survive, get a full ration of water to cross the next desert. Those that fail, simply do not try ever again, and become much like the 92 to 94 million US citizens who don't see it as worthwhile, and end up on $256 a week forever, social assistance.

Is the bar too high? Is the incentive too low?

Business owners seem to take the idea, that if you start a job and are not bankrupt in two years - then you have suceeded. That is the reality of the situation, and a far cry from what the US advertises as the dream.

Do or do not, there is no try. Problem is, what happens when you have 100+ million US college educated citizens in the "do not" category.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare

And of course, lets not forget that many US students enter a minimum wage job, with six-digit education loan debts.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Should be no minimum wage at all... the market should ultimately determine what people get paid, not the government

It's been tried, and it was a failure on an EPIC proportion. Refer to England during the industrial revolution. People worked long hours every day for almost no pay. You had ultra rich and ultra poor. In other places such as France and Russia, the results were even worse. Places like England only avoided a Communist revolution with the introduction of social policies like minimum wage and a 5 hour work week. Pure capitalism does not work because by nature it encourages exploitation. I'm not sure why this absurd argument keeps coming back.


Originally posted by Modelexis
This is where you are completely not using your brain.
Min wage jobs are not about making a living, they are about gaining experience, skills and on the job training that they can build on to receive higher wages with experience.

When you are 15, 16, 17, 18 it is critical that you get training and experience and build a resume and get exposure dealing with the public and co workers.

The average age of those on minimum wage is NOWHERE NEAR 15-18. You're just talking about a hypothetical scenario that doesn't have a foundation in reality.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk
The average age of those on minimum wage is NOWHERE NEAR 15-18. You're just talking about a hypothetical scenario that doesn't have a foundation in reality.

These jobs were designed for highschool kids or kids just out of high school that are trying to make some coin while gaining job experience while going to school or while saving money to go to school.
They are not designed to provide a full living, that's not what they're for.

How hard is that to understand.
Lemonade stands are designed for kids to make a small amount of money and have fun and get experience dealing with customers on the weekend. If you have a bunch of 40 year olds with a family of 5 and they choose to run a lemonade stand to feed their family and make a living I'm sorry but that's not what the job is designed for and you are a fucking idiot if you work a job like that expecting to make a living. the solution is not to make lemonade more expensive and wages higher for kids, the solution is to stop rewarding people who didn't bother to get any job skills while they were in high school.

[Feruk]

Since this is about LA, let me refer to US Department of Labor stats:
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm


Myth: Raising the minimum wage will only benefit teens.

Not true: The typical minimum wage worker is not a high-school student earning weekend pocket money. In fact, 88 percent of those who would benefit from a federal minimum wage increase are age 20 or older

So there you go, you're wasting everyone's time wanting to talk about the 12% and ignoring the 88%. It's the equivalent of talking about the Finland front in WWII. Yes, it was a thing, but you've missed the bigger point.

Also, in reference to Sugarphreak's comments, another interesting tidbit from the same website:


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernible effect on employment.

So let's stop spreading the long debunked BS and talk about the real issues...

[CompletelyNumb]

Originally posted by Modelexis


These jobs were designed for highschool kids or kids just out of high school.



Citation needed.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk
So there you go, you're wasting everyone's time wanting to talk about the 12% and ignoring the 88%.

You wanna make this a number game?
You don't give a fuck about small statistical groups in Alberta?

1.5 per cent of employees in Alberta, earn minimum wage.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-to-raise-minimum-wage-to-10-20-in-september-1.2657155

Now shut the fuck up about numbers.
If 12% doesn't mean shit all or count for anything you have just made my case even stronger.

What about the high school kids that don't even bother looking for work because the jobs that they are fit for are all taken or don't exist? They don't count in the stats because of how the stats are calculated, the number of high school kids in the job force is so low because they don't even bother since there are no jobs for them. They just go straight to college on their parents dime and flood that market.

This is one of the problems with manipulating wages from outside the market, you increase the wages but then the price of the goods increase to pay for the higher wages, it's not just you that will be paying higher prices it's also the people that can afford food after the increase but will no longer afford it when the food prices rise and you will have a never ending cycle of raising wages because you're too daft to see the consequences of manipulating the market.

If an employer has 30$ budget for employees, and the min wage is 10$ he can hire 3 employees, at 15$ he can only hire 2, and WILL only hire 2. There is no statistics that show how many employees will not be hired because of a wage manipulation and because of that, no one thinks about it. No data to back it up so you don't even consider the notion.

What have you to say to the people that won't get jobs because of the min wage manipulating? Is it morally right to strip someone of their chance to get a job because you wanted higher wages for the other two workers? This is the consequences no one talks about.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
Citation needed.

http://slye.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/McDonalds-National-Hiring-day.jpg

Need I say more?

[beyond_ban]

^ Are you aware of how small a percentage of the labor force is employed by McDonalds?

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
^ Are you aware of how small a percentage of the labor force is employed by McDonalds?

They're the second largest private employer in the world.
Are you aware how terrible a job you're doing in this debate?

It's going to continue to shrink if you increase the min wage, but obviously this is a situation you have no clue about.
Keep raising the min wage and see robots making burgers because you've priced humans out of the market, if by some miracle mcdonalds doesn't go the robot route you will have burgers costing twice what they cost now in order to adjust for a higher min wage. Neither of these outcomes benefit anyone who is out of work and has no skills or is having a hard time paying the bills.

You can either have mc jobs and have them as they were designed, not able to support a family of 5 and pay a mortgage, or you can stay home and get zero dollars per hour because the jobs won't exist.

Stay out of this thread until you study the case against the min wage and understand the opposition, you keep running at me and you keep leaving with two black eyes, it's pathetic.

[beyond_ban]

Originally posted by Modelexis


They're the second largest private employer in the world.
Are you aware how terrible a job you're doing in this debate?


Stay out of this thread until you study the case against the min wage and understand the opposition, you keep running at me and you keep leaving with two black eyes, it's pathetic

Oh we are talking raising minimum wage worldwide now?

You used them to back up your point that minimum wage jobs are designed for high school kids and kids just out of high school, while i am pointing out the fact referencing one company that gears their hiring towards the younger generation is not a basis of a solid argument.

Also, where do i keep running at you?

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
Oh we are talking raising minimum wage worldwide now?

You used them to back up your point that minimum wage jobs are designed for high school kids and kids just out of high school, while i am pointing out the fact referencing one company that gears their hiring towards the younger generation is not a basis of a solid argument.

Also, where do i keep running at you?

If you want to learn how to debate you need to read some books and study the subject. You have no knowledge of this debate and have no business being in this thread, you have nothing to add.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Modelexis
If 12% doesn't mean shit all or count for anything you have just made my case even stronger.
Haha says the guy completely ignoring the 88%. Just admit you were wrong and move on already...

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk
Haha says the guy completely ignoring the 88%. Just admit you were wrong and move on already...

Those 88% are not guaranteed a job with an increased min wage, in fact quite the opposite. They can be only guaranteed that prices will overall rise and inflation will increase. They can be guaranteed that they will be competing with people that have a higher market value to begin with and overall a higher number of applicants. If they magically keep their job immediately after the min wage increase they will be good candidates to be laid off in the near future and re entry to the market will be more difficult.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Modelexis


Those 88% are not guaranteed a job with an increased min wage, in fact quite the opposite. They can be only guaranteed that prices will overall rise and inflation will increase. They can be guaranteed that they will be competing with people that have a higher market value to begin with and overall a higher number of applicants. If they magically keep their job immediately after the min wage increase they will be good candidates to be laid off in the near future and re entry to the market will be more difficult.

I am curious -- what is this based on? If a company needs 3 janitors, they need 3 janitors. If McDonalds needs a cashier, burger flipper and drive thru person, they need someone in those spots. If minimum wage is increasing and causing people to lose their jobs, it must not have been a job that was really needed in the first place.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by msommers
I am curious -- what is this based on? If a company needs 3 janitors, they need 3 janitors. If McDonalds needs a cashier, burger flipper and drive thru person, they need someone in those spots. If minimum wage is increasing and causing people to lose their jobs, it must not have been a job that was really needed in the first place.

There are several things an employer can do to fight back against min wage increases. They can convert employees to part time or reduce their hours, only bringing them on during peak hours.
The other thing they will do is raise their prices gradually and offer smaller portions for the same amount of money or they will substitute cheaper, lower quality ingredients to save money that is lost in wages.

All you have to do is put yourself in the shoes of a capitalist with the goal of profits and success of the company. They are not going to leave everything else equal and take a cut in profits.

This is the most fundamental aspect of the market, you cannot change one variable and expect everything else to remain the same, this is simply not how life works. You cannot play wizard of oz with a capitalist born market and expect one pull of the lever to not result in a domino effect that ends up hurting the people you are attempting to 'save' from the evil corporate world.

Just ask yourself why no proponent of high min wages has started their own fast food chain and provided 30$ an hour starting with no experience and been able to compete with the other chains or even remain in business for more than 1 day. There is very good reasons why no one has taken on this challenge and they're the same reasons why increasing min wage will not solve the problems it claims to solve.

People want a high quality product, at a low cost, with high wages for their workers, and fast polite service, clean safe work environment and ethical standards for food and large numbers of jobs available at this high min wage.

There is always a trade-off in the market in order to succeed, if you want high quality food you need to charge high prices, high wages, same thing high prices.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by Modelexis


There are several things an employer can do to fight back against min wage increases. They can convert employees to part time or reduce their hours, only bringing them on during peak hours.
The other thing they will do is raise their prices gradually and offer smaller portions for the same amount of money or they will substitute cheaper, lower quality ingredients to save money that is lost in wages.

All you have to do is put yourself in the shoes of a capitalist with the goal of profits and success of the company. They are not going to leave everything else equal and take a cut in profits.


Except that employers already do all of that. You seem to have this assumption that businesses have extra staff on payroll out of the goodness of their heart because minimum wage is 10$

Lots of people in these jobs are already part-time workers, work erratic schedules, and get reduced hours. Msommers is right, businesses need employees, just because the wages rises doesn't mean those jobs are going to disappear.


Originally posted by Modelexis
Just ask yourself why no proponent of high min wages has started their own fast food chain and provided 30$ an hour starting with no experience and been able to compete with the other chains or even remain in business for more than 1 day. There is very good reasons why no one has taken on this challenge and they're the same reasons why increasing min wage will not solve the problems it claims to solve.

They don't because there is no reason for them to. If everyone else is paying X wage, that is what they will pay. No one is going to be stupid and pay people double for a service job when they can hire employees for comparable market rate. Raising minimum wage raises the comparable rates for all those employees. Businesses in turn will adjust their prices accordingly and life will go on.

If that means your burger is a dollar more, who cares, some of us actually think about the benefit to society as a whole.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by pheoxs
Except that employers already do all of that. You seem to have this assumption that businesses have extra staff on payroll out of the goodness of their heart because minimum wage is 10$

Lots of people in these jobs are already part-time workers, work erratic schedules, and get reduced hours. Msommers is right, businesses need employees, just because the wages rises doesn't mean those jobs are going to disappear.

What about the cashiers, where have those jobs gone? Do they really need all those cashiers or could they simply get a simply barcode scanner to do their job?

Do you even shop? do you see what is happening?

So yes, as I've shown with the example of automatic cashiers, these jobs do disappear. They're gone before you know it.
Full serve gas stations are another example, these jobs have disappeared, because they were provided as a service that was feasible at a low wage but not needed at a high wage.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Modelexis
Those 88% are not guaranteed a job with an increased min wage, in fact quite the opposite. They can be only guaranteed that prices will overall rise and inflation will increase. They can be guaranteed that they will be competing with people that have a higher market value to begin with and overall a higher number of applicants. If they magically keep their job immediately after the min wage increase they will be good candidates to be laid off in the near future and re entry to the market will be more difficult.
Oh man... This myth has also been disproven. Please read my posts before replying...



Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernible effect on employment.
Previously provided source: http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

You just keep saying the same stuff that was already shown to be incorrect...

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by Modelexis


What about the cashiers, where have those jobs gone? Do they really need all those cashiers or could they simply get a simply barcode scanner to do their job?

Do you even shop? do you see what is happening?

Last I checked self-service machines were showing up everywhere, not just in areas with higher wages. Automation has been happening progressively for a long time in all industries.

Can you support any of your claims with actual information? I haven't seen you post anything besides arguing with people that the world will fall apart because the poor business owners are struggling.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by pheoxs
If that means your burger is a dollar more, who cares, some of us actually think about the benefit to society as a whole.

The people who are struggling to support a family care that their burger just went up in price. You're hurting the same people you claim to be helping.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk

Oh man... This myth has also been disproven. Please read my posts before replying...


Previously provided source: http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

You just keep saying the same stuff that was already shown to be incorrect...

The same source you used admits that only 50% of min wage earners are working full time, if you want to make a living the first thing you need is full time hours.
How is min wage increase going to increase their work hours?
These people don't need a higher wage, they need more hours.

You are making it a no brainer for employers to hire pt and send people home when they're not needed.

This is more evidence these jobs were never designed to support a family, they are primarily part time filler type jobs, stop fucking with the economy.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by Modelexis


The people who are struggling to support a family care that their burger just went up in price. You're hurting the same people you claim to be helping.

No it doesn't. Raising minimum wage is not going to increase the prices for everything like you think. Housing, medical services, etc are not tied to the minimum wage.

Food prices may rise as stores try to maintain their margins, but the cost is disturbed across hundreds or thousands of shoppers every day. Lets take walmart for example. As they are probably one of the largest employers that would be affected by this and already have incredibly small margins.

From what I can find they do 10k in sales per hour per store roughly (Total sales / total stores) and employ 475 people per store (Total employees / total stores, which includes a ton of non-minimum wage earners).

Even if we assume that half the employees are working at any given time (which is a ridiculous over estimate) you are looking at ~240 employees getting 5$ per hour bump. That's 1200$ increase.

Over 10k in sales that is a 12% rise in prices to account for that. Given the ridiculousness of these numbers, that all the management / back end / accounting / distribution / etc are included, and that half those people are working at any given time, it would be substantially less.

So giving someone a 50% raise (10->15$) and having a portion of their expenses rise ~12% is hurting them?

[max_boost]

So if min wage goes from $10 to $15. Do you have to raise the wage of the guy making $15 to $20 and $20 to $25 etc?

The $15 job > $10 job but if the guy making $10 is now making $15, I fathom buddy at $15 won't be happy haha :dunno:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by max_boost
So if min wage goes from $10 to $15. Do you have to raise the wage of the guy making $15 to $20 and $20 to $25 etc?

The $15 job > $10 job but if the guy making $10 is now making $15, I fathom buddy at $15 won't be happy haha :dunno:

No. But the market/demand may shift that the guy making $15 may want more. Nobody really knows yet.

For example the demand in Ft Mac already push minimum wage to $18-$20. This will have 0 effect.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by max_boost
So if min wage goes from $10 to $15. Do you have to raise the wage of the guy making $15 to $20 and $20 to $25 etc?

The $15 job > $10 job but if the guy making $10 is now making $15, I fathom buddy at $15 won't be happy haha :dunno:

This is why everything inflates in the market, not just fast food burgers. It encourages people making 15$ a difficult job to drop down and compete in the entry level jobs so they can make nearly the same with half the effort.

This has a massive ripple effect across the economy and affects the prices of everything you buy.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk

Oh man... This myth has also been disproven. Please read my posts before replying...


Previously provided source: http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

You just keep saying the same stuff that was already shown to be incorrect...
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/topics-sujets/minimumwage-salaireminimum/minimumwage-salaireminimum-2009-eng.htm
Table 3 Women and young people occupy most minimum-wage jobs

In 2009, close to 60% of minimum-wage workers were under the age of 25, while this group represented only 17% of all employees. The incidence of working at minimum wage among this age group was almost seven times higher than that of workers 25 and over, at 21% versus 3% respectively. Some 38% of teenagers 15 to 19 years of age worked for minimum wage and made up slightly more than 40% of all minimum-wage workers. The majority of these teenagers attended school on a full-time or part-time basis2 (85%). Young adults (20 to 24) made up 18% of minimum-wage workers and, of that number, 44% attended an educational institution on a full-time or part-time basis.

Chart C Close to 80% of teenagers and young adults hold a part-time minimum-wage job while pursuing their studies

Close to 60% of all minimum-wage workers lived with their parents or with another family member.

---------------------------------

ie. half min wage workers are kids living at home.

Myth busted eh? :rolleyes:

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Modelexis


This is why everything inflates in the market, not just fast food burgers. It encourages people making 15$ a difficult job to drop down and compete in the entry level jobs so they can make nearly the same with half the effort.

This has a massive ripple effect across the economy and affects the prices of everything you buy.

Take my small store as an example.

Employee 1: dishwasher/food runner $11.50
Employee 2: prep cook $15
Employee 3: main cook $20

You can't bump the first guy without bumping the others haha :dunno:

It's okay. No more BMW for me I will go get an Accord instead. :D

[Modelexis]

You crazy bastard, running a business and being a player in the market means nothing, you need statistics from american economics who were the same people who failed to predict the economy crash of 2008. The same economists that put the US 17 trillion dollars in debt.

Enough with your real world examples!

haha ;)

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Modelexis
The same source you used admits that only 50% of min wage earners are working full time, if you want to make a living the first thing you need is full time hours.
I doubt it has much to do with desire and everything to do with the employer not wanting to hire for full time and risk having to pay benefits.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk

I doubt it has much to do with desire and everything to do with the employer not wanting to hire for full time and risk having to pay benefits.

You don't wanna debate stats anymore?
:rofl: :rofl:

How is making labor more expensive going to encourage employers to increase hours?

[CompletelyNumb]

Originally posted by Modelexis

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/topics-sujets/minimumwage-salaireminimum/minimumwage-salaireminimum-2009-eng.htm
Table 3 Women and young people occupy most minimum-wage jobs

In 2009, close to 60% of minimum-wage workers were under the age of 25, while this group represented only 17% of all employees. The incidence of working at minimum wage among this age group was almost seven times higher than that of workers 25 and over, at 21% versus 3% respectively. Some 38% of teenagers 15 to 19 years of age worked for minimum wage and made up slightly more than 40% of all minimum-wage workers. The majority of these teenagers attended school on a full-time or part-time basis2 (85%). Young adults (20 to 24) made up 18% of minimum-wage workers and, of that number, 44% attended an educational institution on a full-time or part-time basis.

Chart C Close to 80% of teenagers and young adults hold a part-time minimum-wage job while pursuing their studies

Close to 60% of all minimum-wage workers lived with their parents or with another family member.


Good citation, thanks :thumbsup:

[01RedDX]

.

[Modelexis]

The insult wasn't needed and I apologize for that.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Modelexis

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/topics-sujets/minimumwage-salaireminimum/minimumwage-salaireminimum-2009-eng.htm
Table 3 Women and young people occupy most minimum-wage jobs

In 2009, close to 60% of minimum-wage workers were under the age of 25, while this group represented only 17% of all employees. The incidence of working at minimum wage among this age group was almost seven times higher than that of workers 25 and over, at 21% versus 3% respectively. Some 38% of teenagers 15 to 19 years of age worked for minimum wage and made up slightly more than 40% of all minimum-wage workers. The majority of these teenagers attended school on a full-time or part-time basis2 (85%). Young adults (20 to 24) made up 18% of minimum-wage workers and, of that number, 44% attended an educational institution on a full-time or part-time basis.

Chart C Close to 80% of teenagers and young adults hold a part-time minimum-wage job while pursuing their studies

Close to 60% of all minimum-wage workers lived with their parents or with another family member.

Interestingly from that same link:


[In Alberta] In 2009, some 817,000 people were working at or below the provincial minimum wage.


A significant proportion (32%) of minimum-wage workers were between the ages of 25 and 54

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by realazy
Another issue is what is the minimum standard of living that people accept nowadays? Is a $500 smart phone with a $80/month plan "minimum standard"?

this. most of the overweight cows with 5 kids hanging off her that I see using food stamps at Walmart have nicer phones than me, and generally drive some relatively new gas-guzzling SUV. Also, there was section 8 low income housing in my old neighborhood, and you wouldn't believe the nice cars that were parked there - these people are just content to be lazy low lives, leeching as much as possible off the system and blowing their cash on unnecessary luxuries.

I'm generally not supportive of minimum wage increases. 14 year old kids working a first job doing dishes somewhere don't need a "liveable wage." Further, any adult that is making minimum wage put themselves there - either make due on your salary (flat screen TVs and 5 internet-connected devices aren't necessary, and get some roomates), or get a better fucking job. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you be a loser leeching off the rest of us.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by msommers


Interestingly from that same link:





Not sure what that changes, still you have 68% of min wage workers 25 years old or younger.
This is not an insignificant percentage.

12% is low percentage, but sill relevant, 68% is majority.

[msommers]

It was only to show that some 261, 440 people are making minimum wage age 25-54.

The argument seems to be these are all people with first jobs or broke ass students but that is still a large number of people.


Minimum-wage work was concentrated in the service sector (92%), especially in the accommodation and food services sector...

You can bet your ass that lots of waitresses and line cooks are making way more than minimum wage because of tips, much of which NOT being taxed. But I'll stop there, otherwise I'll go on another rant about how stupid the concept of tipping is.

[CompletelyNumb]

Wouldn't surprise me if people stopped tipping when minimum wage goes up to $15/h. Two factors there, prices will undoubtedly go up, and people know servers make more. I could be wrong, but I'd bet on it.

[max_boost]

Is it possible the wage increase doesn't apply to serving staff? So ppl have to keep tipping? Lol

[msommers]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
Wouldn't surprise me if people stopped tipping when minimum wage goes up to $15/h. Two factors there, prices will undoubtedly go up, and people know servers make more. I could be wrong, but I'd bet on it.

I sure hope not. The big cryfest from servers was that their employer only gives them minimum wage and they need the tips to live! :cry:

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by max_boost


Take my small store as an example.

Employee 1: dishwasher/food runner $11.50
Employee 2: prep cook $15
Employee 3: main cook $20

You can't bump the first guy without bumping the others haha :dunno:

It's okay. No more BMW for me I will go get an Accord instead. :D

This is the perfect example. Do you really think the business owner is going to simply accept lower profits? No way. All it means is that lunch is going to cost more now. A rising tide lifts all ships. A rapid spike in minimum wage does nothing but accelerate inflation.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Modelexis


You don't wanna debate stats anymore?
:rofl: :rofl:

How is making labor more expensive going to encourage employers to increase hours?
Actually didn't see your post. Either way, you're bringing in Canadian stats into a California discussion... I brought US stats. Seems mine is more relevant. But you still haven't addressed the 88%.

It won't encourage employers to increase hours, but it also won't mean job losses (as per another US STAT study quoted).

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Feruk

Actually didn't see your post. Either way, you're bringing in Canadian stats into a California discussion... I brought US stats. Seems mine is more relevant. But you still haven't addressed the 88%.

It won't encourage employers to increase hours, but it also won't mean job losses (as per another US STAT study quoted). http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/

People at or below the federal minimum are:

Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women.
Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).

The number is still 50% no matter what statistics you wanna use.

Myth busted.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf

Notice how you find the truth when you look at the source data and not just some blurb about busting a 'myth' from a government website that doesn't tell you where they got their data.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by max_boost
Is it possible the wage increase doesn't apply to serving staff? So ppl have to keep tipping? Lol

Not likely. But I do believe wait staff is exempt from current minimum wage rules (unless that a sob story for more tips from all the waitress)

But if we take Chinese dishes as an indicator over 10 years. A standard dish went from average of $10 then to almost average $17 today. All that is based on real estate/labour shortage pressure created by the market. Mandatory minimum wage will be a just another pressure that will raise the price. And everyone will get used to it eventually much like all the talks about GST is going to end us in the 90s.

I think it's a good thing IMO. Alberta economy has been super hot. Some hard time like they see in BC and Ontario may actually knock some senses into today's youth.

We need 10% unemployment for a while. This may do it.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Not likely. But I do believe wait staff is exempt from current minimum wage rules (unless that a sob story for more tips from all the waitress)

Current minimum wage for liquor servers is $9.20, VS $10.20 for the rest of the population.


Originally posted by Xtrema


But if we take Chinese dishes as an indicator over 10 years. A standard dish went from average of $10 then to almost average $17 today. All that is based on how baller Max_boost feels like being

Also FTFY.

[Antonito]

If nothing else this should highlight that leaving minimum wage stagnant for a decade at a time is a bad idea. If they raised it to match inflation every year no one would ever notice. Going from $10 to $15 in one shot will have noticeable changes, so it's become this huge polarizing problem

Not that it really matters in the context of Canada and especially Calgary. Some people would love to see us go America style and balloon our number of poor people to unmanageable levels, but we've this far remained "socialist" (lol) enough to not implement the really hardcore right wing policy's that decimate economies.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by Antonito
If nothing else this should highlight that leaving minimum wage stagnant for a decade at a time is a bad idea. If they raised it to match inflation every year no one would ever notice. Going from $10 to $15 in one shot will have noticeable changes, so it's become this huge polarizing problem

Not that it really matters in the context of Canada and especially Calgary. Some people would love to see us go America style and balloon our number of poor people to unmanageable levels, but we've this far remained "socialist" (lol) enough to not implement the really hardcore right wing policy's that decimate economies.

It isn't a one shot increase. They are phasing it in by 2020.

[KO22]

Originally posted by msommers


I sure hope not. The big cryfest from servers was that their employer only gives them minimum wage and they need the tips to live! :cry:

Lol, they will continue to do this even if it goes up to say $15 p/hr.

[HiTempguy1]

If minimum wage went to $15/h, no way in hell I'd be tipping anymore, which is partially why I agree with it. It brings transparency in pricing. :dunno:

[max_boost]

Originally posted by pheoxs


It isn't a one shot increase. They are phasing it in by 2020.

Raise it $1/year? :dunno?

[suntan]

Originally posted by Xtrema
eventually much like all the talks about GST is going to end us in the 90s. Just FYI, the GST replaced the hidden VAT tax. The old VAT was a higher rate but was on fewer goods.

[ZenOps]

When I was born, minimum wage was $1.60 per hour.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/

Arguably, the peak of prosperity was right around 1968 to 1970 - where wages would buy much much more than you could ever buy today.

Since I've hit mid life crisis, I can full imagine that by the time I'm done and retired, minimum wage should be around $160 per hour. Pretty much exactly a 100x increase in nominal dollar terms over a period of eighty years.

How am I going to pay a youngun to give me a spongebath at $160/hour? Print more money?

PS: It does make me wonder more and more what a Rocket Scientist back during the moon landings made in wages? I'm pretty sure it was well under $15/hour (pretty much 10x greater than minimum wage at the time) NHL Hockey players before 1960 tend to quote being paid $1 per hour if the games were broadcast.

[suntan]

Inflation is a bitch. Full employment was attempted in the USA before, causing massive inflation. Hey turns out prices are sticky (who knew? Pfft), so of course here we are.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by suntan
Inflation is a bitch. Full employment was attempted in the USA before, causing massive inflation. Hey turns out prices are sticky (who knew? Pfft), so of course here we are.

Not only that but I doubt any proponent of a min. wage increase denies that increasing the wages causes inflation to rise, and at the same time they claim the reason they need to raise rates is to keep up with inflation.
:nut:

The min. wage is one of the most significant causes of inflation and inflation puts major economic pressure on struggling families.