Calgary Transit spends $5M, then scraps card payment system. Again.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/1412875/calgary-transit-connect-card-electronic-fare-system-scrapped-for-now/



Calgary Transit’s long and winding road with the CONNECT Card and Telvent, the company they hired to complete an electronic fare system in 2010 – and again in 2013 – has apparently fallen off track.

The City of Calgary’s public transit unit will cut ties with Telvent – now called Schneider Electric – who they contracted to create an electronic fare system to the tune of around $10 million dollars. The decision, announced Tuesday during a media conference, will essentially scrap current plans to roll out the system.

Calgary Transit said $5 million has been paid to Schneider to date and they will attempt to recoup the money “through all legal means necessary.”

The contract with Telvent was terminated in 2012 after “repeated delays and failures during trial runs of the system.” The contract was picked up again in late 2013 with hopes a new fare system could be pulled together for July 2015. Earlier this year, Metro reported the date had again shifted to a 2015 fall launch.

[killramos]

And Nenshi says there is no fat to be trimmed from the budget :nut:

fuck me just put a visa tap console in every bus. What would that be 1 k per bus?

[ZenOps]

Nothing beats small payments with a couple round polar bears. Time proven, time tested.

[suntan]

Luckily my system that they've been using for years now at a fraction of the cost of this POS project just keeps ticking along.

[D'z Nutz]

Those fucking idiots. I was looking at those on the bus the other day and wondered if they had ever launched. I guess not.

What was the hold up? It's not like this technology is new and/or revolutionary.

[killramos]

They just want to reinvent the wheel...

We will have our credit cards in our hips before this system ever works. They are already in our watches.

[phreezee]

Surprised there was no COTS system available/chosen... I'm sure we're not the first city that needed this.

[OneGreasyHobo]

I don't see how this project failed? The technology is out there.. Nothing has to be created, something has to be copied. Give it to one of the local universities as a project? I was kinda looking forward to this, thought it was getting released soon.

[Xtrema]

Telvent is the lowest bidder, which is what tax payers will bitch about if we didn't pick them.

But Telvent is also the shittest bidder with a bad record. So you get what you paid for.

We are not the first, the Montreal OPUS system costed $217M to implement (Although split between 5 transit authorities)


Originally posted by killramos
fuck me just put a visa tap console in every bus. What would that be 1 k per bus?

This is exactly what Telvent tried to do and failed to deliver. Visa Tap requires a stable network to authenticate. Stable network on buses is impossible.

OPUS card or most of this payment type treat the card as a wallet where you add and remove fares on it. So you don't need a network. But the station/kiosk where value is added must be 100% secured.

[lasimmon]

I just dont get why they can't install the debt/credit pay wave thing everywhere.

I hate when I don't have a ticket and I need to buy one that I have to insert my card and put in my pin instead of just waving my visa, and running to the train.

[flipstah]

Originally posted by Xtrema

This is exactly what Telvent tried to do and failed to deliver. Visa Tap requires a stable network to authenticate. Stable network on buses is impossible.

OPUS card or most of this payment type treat the card as a wallet where you add and remove fares on it. So you don't need a network. But the station/kiosk where value is added must be 100% secured.

They should get Mac's or 7-Eleven to be sponsored loading stations, similar to ATM's.

The latter part seems easier as seen in Asia.

[2Legit2Quit]

Aye the train payment system in Seoul is awesome.

[ercchry]

so do you still need loose change right now to take a bus/train? thats why i never use to pay, i fucking hate loose change... cab/keys please/car ftw

[Robin Goodfellow]

Lame. My first thought is that heads should roll, but then I remind myself that the folks doing the sourcing probably had their hands tied. The inevitable failure results.


I was just thinking the other days about Westjet's colossal failure a few years back. They had outsourced some huge software project to replace all of their inhouse software, and it completely cratered and was cancelled. Or something like that.

Bummer.

[revelations]

Vancouver/GVRD is going through the same headaches with their systems.

5 million seems like nothing compared to Vancouver as their compass card system was slated to cost 175 million :eek:

[suntan]

Dipshits at municipalities make everything expensive.

They wanted to replace our system to save money. The morons at the city came back with a capital cost of over half a million dollars.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by ercchry
so do you still need loose change right now to take a bus/train? thats why i never use to pay, i fucking hate loose change... cab/keys please/car ftw

Bus, yes. Train do take CC the few times that I needed it.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Xtrema


This is exactly what Telvent tried to do and failed to deliver. Visa Tap requires a stable network to authenticate. Stable network on buses is impossible.

OPUS card or most of this payment type treat the card as a wallet where you add and remove fares on it. So you don't need a network. But the station/kiosk where value is added must be 100% secured.

why not just use a car2go type system? proprietary card thats linked to ANY credit card (not just visa)

[max_boost]

Originally posted by D'z Nutz
Those fucking idiots. I was looking at those on the bus the other day and wondered if they had ever launched. I guess not.

What was the hold up? It's not like this technology is new and/or revolutionary. I don't get it.

Is it cost?

Things work great in Asia. Why not steal that? :dunno:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by ercchry


why not just use a car2go type system? proprietary card thats linked to ANY credit card (not just visa)

Car2go also works on a cell network.

http://www.geekwire.com/2015/car2go-suffers-network-outage-in-seattle-drivers-cant-start-or-end-trips/

End of the day, cell network based payment system for public transit is close to impossible because of coverage. Trains are fine because stations don't need mobile network.

Digital wallet where you can add and remove from wallet is the only way to go. But I have yet to see one that doesn't have an awful process for online top up.


Originally posted by max_boost
I don't get it.

Is it cost?

Things work great in Asia. Why not steal that? :dunno:

TLDR, CT want a cheaper version based on reliability of cell data network. Technical issue and shitty vendor who pitched it botched it.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Car2go also works on a cell network.

http://www.geekwire.com/2015/car2go-suffers-network-outage-in-seattle-drivers-cant-start-or-end-trips/

End of the day, cell network based payment system for public transit is close to impossible.

yeah, but for public transit all you really need to do is collect the data at point of purchase, then since its not actually cc data you could store it on board till the bus is done for the day and then everything is processed at the depot, like the old parking systems or car wash that didnt authenticate right away, yes then you would have issues with non-payment, but IMO thats just a cost of running public transit. but accounts would still be track-able.

[OneGreasyHobo]

Originally posted by Xtrema




Digital wallet where you can add and remove from wallet is the only way to go. But I have yet to see one that doesn't have an awful process for online top up.



TLDR, CT want a cheaper version based on reliability of cell data network. Technical issue and shitty vendor who pitched it botched it.

Thats all I thought it was going to be? I hate having these dumb bus tickets in my wallet.. Doesn't help when I wash my jeans with my wallet in it either.

[jacky4566]

Just Copy Paste the Hong Kong Octopus system. Its perfect. Its an 18 year old system so they have all the bugs worked out.
-reloadable debit account for tourists
-link to CC for residents
-tap and go
-Charge based on Km travelled or transportation type.
-Use it at 7-11 or McDicks

Nothing beats the HK Octopus card. Why did they hire an external company for implementation.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Xtrema
End of the day, cell network based payment system for public transit is close to impossible because of coverage. Huh? You've got Bellus, Rogers and Wind with damn near complete coverage within the City. How difficult can it be to utilize two of them (Or shit, all three) and provide complete and redundant coverage? You literally know every single location that you require signal, so you go test those locations. Don't get a couple bars? Talk to the providers, you're about to pay them a shit ton to outfit every bus with a cell modem, I'm sure they'd be willing to make some tweaks to ensure it works properly.

I really don't understand the position of "Stable cellular coverage within Calgary is impossible". Especially outdoors.

EDIT: And yeah, shit, system goes down? Ride for free. I bet they'd still end up with better ridership.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by ercchry


yeah, but for public transit all you really need to do is collect the data at point of purchase, then since its not actually cc data you could store it on board till the bus is done for the day and then everything is processed at the depot, like the old parking systems or car wash that didnt authenticate right away, yes then you would have issues with non-payment, but IMO thats just a cost of running public transit. but accounts would still be track-able.

Then you now have to do add storage and and nightly transfer process to all the buses. You have to extract the swipes and installed the new voided card list. Ops cost may increase. And what if the swipes didn't register at all until end of the day? What's the point if the swipe is just a beep and green light all the time when the driver has no way to kick anyone out?

And what if we spend too much on a problem that cost less to let it go?

Who knows.

[Mibz]

You can't really process everything at the depot because then you'd get a card with $3 on it and be able to use it all day before the charges are applied. You don't want people to be able to run a negative balance on a transit card.
Originally posted by Xtrema
And what if we spend too much on a problem that cost less to let it go? The City has proven multiple times that they have not and will not ask themselves this question. Ever.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Mibz
You can't really process everything at the depot because then you'd get a card with $3 on it and be able to use it all day before the charges are applied. You don't want people to be able to run a negative balance on a transit card. '

I dug up some old article. The original failed CONNECT system in 2013 operates exactly how ercchry proposed. Sync the reader only every 1 to 2 days.



Calgary Transit says improvements in technology will allow users to add funds to their smart cards and report them as lost or stolen in real-time. With the previous Connect system, information would only be updated when the smart-card reader was connected to Wi-Fi or a cellular network, something that would only happen every 24-48 hours.

That makes fare dodging quite easy as you say. You just buy a new empty card for $3-$5 and you get a day use out of it because you can't deny a legit user because you don't know if that card is legit or not.

The only place you can enforce is train stations but without turnstyles you are back to cops enforcing payment.

What a clusterfuck. I still think OPUS/Octopus is the way to go because you take the network out of the equation.

And if you think we are the only fuck ups.....
http://thetyee.ca/News/2015/02/20/Compass-Card-Hires-Lobbyist/

Ours is a drop in the bucket and just walk away.


Originally posted by jacky4566
Just Copy Paste the Hong Kong Octopus system. Its perfect. Its an 18 year old system so they have all the bugs worked out.
-reloadable debit account for tourists
-link to CC for residents
-tap and go
-Charge based on Km travelled or transportation type.
-Use it at 7-11 or McDicks

Nothing beats the HK Octopus card. Why did they hire an external company for implementation.

1st of all government should not be in the business of payment system. That's why you need to go out and buy a system.

Hong Kong is also different. MTR is actually a crown corporation more like Enmax than CT. So Octopus was much easier to justify to develop than outright spending tax payer money on it.

The down side of the OPUS/Octopus system is that you better not leaked the shared secret key or reloading terminal get compromised. You can lose $1000 a card quickly if that ever happens. That's why you may be able to use Octopus in Shenzen, you can't reload it in Shenzen. And even reloading it online is only allowed on certain credit cards by certain banks.



As for CT and Telvent, they should have walked away the 1st time. This tells me that whoever in charge of going over the RFPs @ CT technically failed miserably or he/she get overruled by management due to backroom deals or other factors.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Telvent is the lowest bidder, which is what tax payers will bitch about if we didn't pick them.

But Telvent is also the shittest bidder with a bad record. So you get what you paid for.

Agree x 100000000

In any case, it would be relieving to see if they can recover that 5MM and have the legal costs of doing so covered by Telvent as well.

[ercchry]

People will exploit the system regardless of what it is, like i said... cost of business. Look at the current system and the paper tickets, pretty easy to ride for free if thats what you wish to do. But at least if you have to go out and buy a new card every day or two thats still revenue, and a pain in the ass.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by ercchry
People will exploit the system regardless of what it is, like i said... cost of business. Look at the current system and the paper tickets, pretty easy to ride for free if thats what you wish to do. But at least if you have to go out and buy a new card every day or two thats still revenue, and a pain in the ass.

Currently free rides only happen on trains, not buses.

New system with this procedural fault is free ride for all.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Currently free rides only happen on trains, not buses. Hahahahahahaha. Do you actually believe this?

[sabad66]

In London right now and I'm amazed at their transit system.

3 options - single day/week use tickets, Oyster card (reloadable/auto-reload), or just use a contactless credit/debit card. It's genius.. This is what we need.

If network is down, store it in SAF until you're back online again. I don't buy the excuse that wireless/cellular is too unstable within Calgary city limits. What a joke of a project.

[ZenOps]

Cellular can't be done unless everyone has a cellphone.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2012/02/12/are-taxpayers-paying-for-free-cell-phones/

Then you pretty much have to do what the US did, give out free cellphones for those making less than $22,350 US.

So goes the argument that cellular should not be overloaded with purchase like tranactions, like transit or lottery - as it will strain an already strained and fragile system.

[speedog]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Cellular can't be done unless everyone has a cellphone.

:nut:

You obviously haven't been paying attention as it's quite apparent you don't have the first clue about how they'd use the cellular network - please do point out where it was stated that everyone would need a cellphone.

[ZenOps]

I know a great deal about wireless.

If a transit system were to be setup, it should not use the existing voice frequencies for sure. However, buying specific frequencies just for use in one city and then making specific antenna (which physically are a different size) may make the system unaffordable.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5557627-federal-government-kicks-off-another-auction-for-wireless-spectrum/

Assuming that sale of 13 or so wireless frequencies nationwide will bring in around $500 million to $1.5 Billion - that is the dollar range that would be tossed around.

If thats the amount, then I'd rather apply for a NHL franchise ($500 million) and probably get rejected, lol.

Really... The only way this could work is if the Federal government got skunked on a wireless sale, and gave away a frequency for free to itself at the provincial and municipal level.

Cost is everything. $2,000 per acre foot for potable water in California is now the going rate if desalinating.

[suntan]

Originally posted by ZenOps
I know a great deal about wireless.

If a transit system were to be setup, it should not use the existing voice frequencies for sure. However, buying specific frequencies just for use in one city and then making specific antenna (which physically are a different size) may make the system unaffordable.
You don't know the first fucking thing about "wireless". Your technical knowledge stops at being able to post crap on the internet.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by ZenOps
If a transit system were to be setup, it should not use the existing voice frequencies for sure. I think it would be ideal if they didn't, but you're right in that it would likely make the system too expensive. I don't see a deal-breaking reason they couldn't use existing spectrum and infrastructure though.

According to their website, CT has a fleet of 1,203 vehicles. Even if all of them were active at the same time, they're gonna be spread across the city and really not putting any strain on the existing infrastructure. Even if they were, again, I would expect CT to work together with providers to compensate.

The only time I ever get bad cell service is at the Saddledome, which has ten times the number of users in one condensed area.

[benyl]

Every bus and train car has a cell phone already. Piggy back on that network. We aren't talking about GBs of data here. It is text data that can be compressed.

[M.alex]

what's wrong with the old school coin/ticket deposit machine, that works and is cheap. damn technology.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by M.alex
what's wrong with the old school coin/ticket deposit machine, that works and is cheap. damn technology. most of us don't like carrying a velvet bag full of half pences & doubloons like a 15th century pirate. Hate carrying shrapnel.

[sabad66]

Why can't it be on the same frequencies as voice? Enlighten us

[JDMMAN]

This is a problem inherent with the public procurement practice and lack of qualified contract management & project personnel to supervise this whole process.

Lowest price does not equal lowest cost.

People need to move from the frame of mind of "lowest price" to lowest total cost of ownership.

[ExtraSlow]

Fuck man, I could write a book on bungled procurement practices. And I'm not even in the public sector.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Mibz
Hahahahahahaha. Do you actually believe this?

Has not been a bus rider for a decade, does bus driver enforce payment anymore?

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Fuck man, I could write a book on bungled procurement practices. And I'm not even in the public sector.

Somedays, it really makes you question why the people in charge of these processes earn the money they do.

Engineering firms are the worst at it when doing work on behalf of a client... uhg, I'm getting a headache just thinking about it :nut:

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by sabad66
Why can't it be on the same frequencies as voice? Enlighten us

Its not that it can't, it shouldn't. To burden a voice/voip frequency with transit microtransactions when there is plenty of available wireless spectrum, especially in Canada - is borderline insane.

They space the HDTV wireless OTA channels in Calgary *seven* channels apart, thats how much spectrum we have available for use here. And yet, the 802.11B spectrum in my neighborhood is so crowded I can get a solid ten accesspoints all using the same frequency.

So goes the idea that if you crowd a channel, more people will use it (herd mentality of sheep). Now is that a good thing or a bad thing? If you have 100 people waiting in line for bread or for their queued transit microtransaction is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Those who want to create an illusion of wealth, an illusion of busy-ness would say that having a lineup in front of a business is the best thing ever. Those who have to wait in line in the crowded lane however, might begin to resent the idea (herded sheep in a slow crowded lane, always are impoverished even though they may feel more "included", and doing the right thing)

Its a matter of perspective again. I prefer to have an economy of abundance, others would have an economy like an oil, potash or a milk cartel - where you are throwing 800,000 litres of milk in the toilet because you don't want to break the "illusion".

[Mibz]

Originally posted by ZenOps
To burden a voice/voip frequency You're okay with the 30 passengers on the bus all downloading YouTube videos, but you're not okay with the bus itself sending a few dozen KB of transaction data?

EDIT: How did I miss the fact that I'm talking to ZenOps...