Cecil the lion

[lilmira]

K, enough about the drowning incident, how about Cecil the lion?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33699346

Cecill the famous lion in Zimbabwe was lured out of the national park, shot by a bow arrow, got chased and eventually killed by a rifle. It was found skinned and beheaded. Cecil is collared and monitored. His cubs will likely be killed by another male without his protection.

It has been unveiled that the hunter is an American dentist, supposedly paid 50k to hunt the lion. He claimed everything was done legally to his knowledge. Regardless of legality, he is now in trouble facing the rage of public opinion.

I wouldn't kill such a magnificent animal for sports but then I'm not a hunter.

Fire at will!

[killramos]

Crux of the matter is if it was legal or not. Personal opinions on trophy hunting aside that's the only part that matters.

If an elk wanders from a national park to a designated hunting zone and you have the tag for it that would be legal here?

Now in Canada you cant bait ( which would make luring something out of a park difficult). You could probably chase it out though. I am not an expert in hunting laws.

If he or his contractors who he paid to facilitate the hunt broke the law at any point in the hunting of the lion then throw him to the dogs. No sympathy.

Otherwise put a damn fence around your park if you wont want animals getting out. Or don't allow the hunting outside of the parks anyways. :dunno:

Now as for the whole trophy hunting is unethical thing. I'm not going there.

[FraserB]

Depending on what you're hunting, baiting is legal (in Alberta at least). There are rules around it, but you are allowed to.

This situation isn't any different that paying for a guided hunt in Canada. You're paying for the experience of the guide and making sure you stay legal. The onus is on the guide to ensure all laws are followed. If the law id broken, almost all the liability should rest with the guide.

Also, my understanding is that the legitimate trophy hunts overseas don't waste the meat. You get to hunt and possibly keep a trophy, but a village will take the meat and use.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[KRyn]

Originally posted by killramos


Now in Canada you cant bait ( which would make luring something out of a park difficult).



You can actually bait bears in Alberta legally, it is a common practice to begin baiting bears before the season opens.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by KRyn


You can actually bait bears in Alberta legally, it is a common practice to begin baiting bears before the season opens.

In some areas you can also bait deer, elk, moose, etc...Just not in hunting season IIRC. Been a long ass time since I went hunting.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

I'm no fan of trophy hunting by any means, but the dentist got screwed by the guides, who are paid to know what is/isn't legal to hunt. They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

[lilmira]

Yeah, I think he will be more in trouble facing the court of public than the court of law which happens more and more nowadays.

[taemo]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'm no fan of trophy hunting by any means, but the dentist got screwed by the guides, who are paid to know what is/isn't legal to hunt. They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.
^this

When I first heard about this incident yesterday, my initial thought was that it was the dentist's fault, after all he was the one that paid and shot Cecil, but this morning after hearing it on the radio, I started to think that it might not be entirely his fault but rather the two that organized the hunt for him.

IMO, as long he has proper documentation that he legally arrange a trophy hunt and that he was unaware of the National Park lion that he shot, he shouldn't be entirely at fault.

But then, there are other questions that may rise.
When was the collar removed from the lion. Did the dentist see the collar or did the 2 organizers remove it before the start hunt.

[blitz]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'm no fan of trophy hunting by any means, but the dentist got screwed by the guides, who are paid to know what is/isn't legal to hunt. They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

[SmAcKpOo]

There is no place for trophy hunting. People who engage in it have some mental issues.

I have a family friend who does it and he's the typical 1% elitist douche.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

Yup. Dude is fucked on public opinion alone.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11767119/Cecil-the-lions-killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html


Originally posted by blitz


Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

His excuse is blaming the guides but as an experienced hunter, would you even hunt so close to reserve?

The fact that he has a history of illegal hunts and going after endangered animals, he is not totally innocent either.


Originally posted by taemo
But then, there are other questions that may rise.
When was the collar removed from the lion. Did the dentist see the collar or did the 2 organizers remove it before the start hunt.

According the version I read, they didn't find the collar until the final shot and they attempted to remove it or damaged it during the decapitation.

[TL911]

The Dentist should be found, stripped naked and thrown out in the Zimbabwe jungle to be hunted by Lions. Also add in a bunch of lion advocates to hunt him like the hunger games.

[civic_stylez]

The slaughter and desecration of Africa's wildlife for sport and from poaching will ultimately be the demise of their tourism industry. Why they don't do more to protect elephants, rhinos and big cats baffles me as once they are gone, no one is going to visit Africa.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by civic_stylez
The slaughter and desecration of Africa's wildlife for sport and from poaching will ultimately be the demise of their tourism industry. Why they don't do more to protect elephants, rhinos and big cats baffles me as once they are gone, no one is going to visit Africa.

They do recognize that, and people are trying.

But you also assume that Africa has law and order like the western world.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by FraserB
Depending on what you're hunting, baiting is legal (in Alberta at least). There are rules around it, but you are allowed to.

This situation isn't any different that paying for a guided hunt in Canada. You're paying for the experience of the guide and making sure you stay legal. The onus is on the guide to ensure all laws are followed. If the law id broken, almost all the liability should rest with the guide.

Also, my understanding is that the legitimate trophy hunts overseas don't waste the meat. You get to hunt and possibly keep a trophy, but a village will take the meat and use.

You realize they cut off the head, skinned the lion, tried to destroy the locator, and left the body to rot right?



Originally posted by Sugarphreak
What is Cecil famous for?

I know people who hunt game in Africa; they pay big bucks to local companies to ensure it is legal. It sounds like they fucked the dentist on this one

He was being studied by the University of Oxford.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by blitz


Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

Were they bribes? Paying for the setup of a guided hunt (be it for lions, moose, hogs or whatever) is extremely common and not bribery. You're paying the landowner for access to his land (which he has a hunting permit for), and usually for the services of a guide who is experienced in the area and game you're after. Self-guided hunts are also an option but are less popular as they are generally less successful than a guided hunt due to the hunter now knowing the area well. The person who is buying the hunt (eg. the dentist) does not arrange permits or other legal matters, he pays the guides (also referred to as "outfitters") to set up a legal hunt for him. He may be an experienced trophy hunter, but that doesn't mean he knows the ins and outs of hunting legalities in Zimbabwe and it would be reasonable to leave that up to the local "professionals".

It's entirely possible he didn't even know there was a reserve next door, and from the sound of it the landowner may have lied to him about having a hunting permit for his land at all. Shitty situation for the dentist, even moreso for the lion.

[D'z Nutz]

Originally posted by blitz
Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.



Originally posted by Xtrema
His excuse is blaming the guides but as an experienced hunter, would you even hunt so close to reserve?

The fact that he has a history of illegal hunts and going after endangered animals, he is not totally innocent either.


Yeah I doubt he's as innocent has he's claiming he is. How is it hunting if you have to bait an animal out of an area you're not allowed to kill them? And yeah he's done this before, so it's not like he didn't know.

_LzXpE1mjqA

[spikerS]

It all comes down to if the hunt was legal or not. He is being crucified for nothing right now with the blind rage of public knee jerk reactions. The gov't there is trying to save face as well.

He has released a statement saying that he had all the necessary permits, and that it was a legal hunt. He hired professional hunting guides to ensure that the hunt remained legal. The lion was not shot on the reserve.

I have only 3 questions in my mind. 1, was the hunt legal and properly permitted and 2, the ethical stance of the guides who lured the lion off the reserve and lastly, was all of the carcass recovered?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
It's entirely possible he didn't even know there was a reserve next door, and from the sound of it the landowner may have lied to him about having a hunting permit for his land at all. Shitty situation for the dentist, even moreso for the lion.

So you shot a lion, see it has a collar and decided to cut off head, skin it anyway instead of nope out of this asking for a refund?

[killramos]

Lets just remember the kind of people who chair the court of public opinion on these matters...
http://i.imgur.com/StNDD7q.jpg

:drama:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by killramos
Lets just remember the kind of people who chair the court of public opinion on these matters...
http://i.imgur.com/StNDD7q.jpg

:drama:

People who grew up with:
http://www.lionking.org/imgarchive/Miscellaneous_Images/LionKingCast.jpg

:rofl:

Still, I'm not against hunting as long as it's not endangered or protected.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Xtrema


People who grew up with:
http://www.lionking.org/imgarchive/Miscellaneous_Images/LionKingCast.jpg

:rofl:

Still, I'm not against hunting as long as it's not endangered or protected.

more like:
http://brianjnoggle.com/bsgfx/babar.jpg

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Xtrema


So you shot a lion, see it has a collar and decided to cut off head, skin it anyway instead of nope out of this asking for a refund?

Has it been confirmed that the dentist was the one that dealt with the lion's body after it was killed? From the sounds of the story (which, let's be honest, we don't have much details for) this was a hunt that went very badly. The initial bowshot didn't kill it, so they ended up tracking it for 40 hours to finish it off by gun (which to be fair, is considered the ethical thing to do rather than just let it bleed out). On guided hunts, especially the exotic "dangerous game" kind, the hunter doesn't usually have any real interest in the body - they're there for the thrill of the hunt and a few photos afterwards. After all, what's a dentist going to do with a couple hundred pounds of lion carcass? There's no guarantee he would have even seen a tracking collar hidden in the lion's mane, and any skinning would likely have been done by the guides afterwards so they could make a few extra bucks by selling the pelt afterwards.

To reiterate, I don't like trophy hunting and especially that of protected and endangered species, but I'm not going to demonize a guy who was playing by the rules. IMO it's the outfitters who were the guilty parties and need to have their asses handed to them on a platter.

[HiTempguy1]

You do realize that this guy has had previous run-ins with the law in the USA due to illegal hunting activities (and I believe he was charged and convicted for them)?

Normally, I may have given the guy a pass, but past behavior predicts future behavior.

[SmAcKpOo]

Why not demonize him? Trohpy hunting is an incredibly selfish and deplorable thing to do. This happened purely to satisfy his mental condition.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
You do realize that this guy has had previous run-ins with the law in the USA due to illegal hunting activities (and I believe he was charged and convicted for them)?

Normally, I may have given the guy a pass, but past behavior predicts future behavior.

Didn't he have a single run-in where he misreported where he'd taken a bear? He got one year of probation because it was a pretty minor transgression, that's hardly a history of poaching.



Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
Why not demonize him? Trohpy hunting is an incredibly selfish and deplorable thing to do. This happened purely to satisfy his mental condition.

I'll frown upon it and fully believe it should be made illegal for endangered or protected species, but I refuse to demonize someone for doing something deemed legal that I don't happen to personally like. In many cases (albeit not this one) these hunts are organized by the people in charge of protecting the animals as they bring in huge dollars that aid in the conservation efforts. Paradoxical, I know, but if you want to fleece hundreds of thousands of dollars from trophy hunters to fund conservation, I'm all for it.

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
Why not demonize him? Trohpy hunting is an incredibly selfish and deplorable thing to do. This happened purely to satisfy his mental condition.

I don't think people should go on a witch-hunt for this guy, but definitely shame his actions. I'm glad trophy hunting is being ridiculed in the press, such a ridiculous 'sport'. :thumbsdow

Fleecing money from trophy hunters is an interesting point, BSK. I didn't know this existed. Kind of a sad/mental way to raise money for conservation unfortunately.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'll frown upon it and fully believe it should be made illegal for endangered or protected species, but I refuse to demonize someone for doing something deemed legal that I don't happen to personally like. In many cases (albeit not this one) these hunts are organized by the people in charge of protecting the animals as they bring in huge dollars that aid in the conservation efforts. Paradoxical, I know, but if you want to fleece hundreds of thousands of dollars from trophy hunters to fund conservation, I'm all for it.

Legal vs ethical debate. Much like the whole shark fin and whaling discussion.

Everyone drew the line at different level.

But yeah, I'll support it if it's organized by conservation effort. Hunting can be a tool for conservation.

[Royle9]

Anyone who thinks this wasn't done on "purpose" and puts the blame SOLELY on the guides is delusional. This piece of shit has been caught before for "luring" an animal. He knows what he did, he just didn't give shit.

http://www.startribune.com/zimbabwe-2-to-appear-in-court-for-killing-cecil-the-lion/318828251/

In 2008, Palmer pleaded guilty in federal court in Wisconsin to misleading a federal agent in connection with the hunting of a black bear. Two years earlier, Palmer killed a bear near Phillips, in Price County. That location was 40 miles outside where bear hunting was allowed at the time. Palmer and others transported the bear carcass to a registration station inside the allowed hunting zone. At the station, he falsely certified that the bear had been killed in the legal zone. He then brought the bear to Minnesota. Twice, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agent interviewed Palmer, who said he believed he killed the bear legally. Palmer, who faced a maximum penalty of five years in prison, was sentenced to one year’s probation and fined nearly $3,000.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Royle9
Anyone who thinks this wasn't done on "purpose" and puts the blame SOLELY on the guides is delusional. This piece of shit has been caught before for "luring" an animal. He knows what he did, he just didn't give shit.

http://www.startribune.com/zimbabwe-2-to-appear-in-court-for-killing-cecil-the-lion/318828251/

In 2008, Palmer pleaded guilty in federal court in Wisconsin to misleading a federal agent in connection with the hunting of a black bear. Two years earlier, Palmer killed a bear near Phillips, in Price County. That location was 40 miles outside where bear hunting was allowed at the time. Palmer and others transported the bear carcass to a registration station inside the allowed hunting zone. At the station, he falsely certified that the bear had been killed in the legal zone. He then brought the bear to Minnesota. Twice, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agent interviewed Palmer, who said he believed he killed the bear legally. Palmer, who faced a maximum penalty of five years in prison, was sentenced to one year’s probation and fined nearly $3,000.

1) Palmer didn't lure the lion. That would have been set up well in advance by the guides, he's not paying thousands of dollars to drag lion food into the brush himself. The hunter pays for the hunt, the guides drive him out to where they figure they've got a lion, and he goes hunting.

2) Palmer didn't lure the bear, he killed it out-of-bounds and then misrepresented it to the authorities. (Think about it - why would you lure a bear away from the legally allowed hunting area during bear season?) Deplorable (and actionable, as the federal authorities proved) but certainly not any proof that he's a long-time poacher with a penchant for luring as you suggest. All evidence points to him being a fucking colossal douche, but not necessarily a poacher.

[Canmorite]

If you plan to make a donation to the Oxford research team that was tracking Cecil and studying him:

https://www.campaign.ox.ac.uk/make-a-gift?id=3618f41b-ff75-49f3-8d2d-21f282cc2ef2

The site is being bombarded, took me a while to get through.

[Royle9]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


1) Palmer didn't lure the lion. That would have been set up well in advance by the guides, he's not paying thousands of dollars to drag lion food into the brush himself. The hunter pays for the hunt, the guides drive him out to where they figure they've got a lion, and he goes hunting.

2) Palmer didn't lure the bear, he killed it out-of-bounds and then misrepresented it to the authorities. Deplorable (and actionable, as the federal authorities proved) but certainly not any proof that he's a long-time poacher with a penchant for luring as you suggest.

1) How do you know he wasn't involved? Did he tell you this? Do you believe him? The lion was collared, that's usually a pretty good sign somethings not right. He's been doing big game hunts for years, he knows how they work. Have you been on one yourself, is that how you know the exact details of "who does what"?

For all we know they spotted the lion, realized it was still on the protected land, took some bait and lured it off of the land to shoot it. Don't forget not only did they remove the head & the hide but they tried to destroy the collar. Sure Palmer may not have been involved in that, but why not report it himself then if he felt it was wrong...

2) Read more into the evidence/cases, that's just 1 example. Oops shot it out of bounds (I knew it was out of bounds but SHOT IT ANYWAY) better try and drag if 40 miles back INTO bounds and then when I get caught LIE about it. This happened on 2 separate bear hunts and the lion makes 3. Hunter is just as much at fault as the guide, you're responsible to know the rules and regulations. Heck I go salmon fishing on the coast every year, yes its the guides responsibility to make sure where we are is legal and what we're keeping is legal but I also need to know because if I drive back with illegal items its MY FAULT by law.

But no, he's a responsible hunter with the greatest of moral's clearly, my mistake.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Hard to say what really happened other than this guy is fucked for awhile. The only thing I do know is the one person I am familiar with who has the cash to do these hunts and who has a room full of "trophy" heads is that his attitude, if he didn't have a particular one yet, would be along the lines of "I don't care where you get it, I'm paying 50K for a head so get me my fucking lion (or whatever animal)."

I highly doubt this guy is any more ethical but, you never know. :dunno:

[rx7boi]

I agree with the tentativeness that BerserkerCatSplat is approaching this with, but it still smells fishy.

Hunters like to pose with their trophy after a kill. I'm assuming that it's normally immediately too. I don't see the client shooting it, and waiting around until the guides give him the all clear and wave him to come down to check out the carcass.

This guy sounds like a seasoned hunter so I doubt he is as ignorant as some of you are making him out to be and is trying to weasel his way out of any liability.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Royle9


1) How do you know he wasn't involved? Did he tell you this? Do you believe him?

I could ask all those same questions of you, of course. How do you know he was?




The lion was collared, that's usually a pretty good sign somethings not right.

Considering that I can't spot the collar on Cecil in any of the dozens of pictures available via Google, I'd say it's safe to assume the hunter couldn't, either. It's completely hidden in his mane - you could be standing beside the lion and not know it was there. I'm not sure why tagged lions aren't identified better to prevent incidents like this.




He's been doing big game hunts for years, he knows how they work. Have you been on one yourself, is that how you know the exact details of "who does what"?


Big game hunts are not shrouded in mysticism, they're pretty straightforward and run pretty much the same way. It's not rocket surgery.




For all we know they spotted the lion, realized it was still on the protected land, took some bait and lured it off of the land to shoot it. Don't forget not only did they remove the head & the hide but they tried to destroy the collar. Sure Palmer may not have been involved in that, but why not report it himself then if he felt it was wrong...


That's a whole lot of speculation. I'm quite comfortable assuming that the hunt was conducted like most others, and the guides didn't discover it was a collared lion until they went to retrieve the pelt, realized they'd fucked up, and then tried to destroy the evidence. That's certainly the simplest answer. Why would he report it if he had no idea anything was out of the ordinary?




2) Read more into the evidence/cases, that's just 1 example. Oops shot it out of bounds (I knew it was out of bounds but SHOT IT ANYWAY) better try and drag if 40 miles back INTO bounds and then when I get caught LIE about it. This happened on 2 separate bear hunts and the lion makes 3.


So you agree that in no way was Palmer "luring" bears. There's also no mention of a second bear incident in your quote or link, so I'm not sure where you got that information from. He also didn't "drag it back 40 miles into bounds", his hunting party loaded it up and drove it to the nearest processing station like you'd do for any other bear. Out-of-bounds kills happen more frequently than you might think, but they're tough to prove and I'm happy the feds nailed him on it.




Hunter is just as much at fault as the guide, you're responsible to know the rules and regulations. Heck I go salmon fishing on the coast every year, yes its the guides responsibility to make sure where we are is legal and what we're keeping is legal but I also need to know because if I drive back with illegal items its MY FAULT by law.


I agree there's a lot of trust involved in foreign guided hunts, but the Zimbabwean courts don't seem to think he acted illegally and are only going after the guides. Seems reasonable to me, tough to justify forcing a guy to learn the local language just to read the laws that pertain to the hunt. Hiring a local professional to conduct the hunt legally is doing his due diligence.




But no, he's a responsible hunter with the greatest of moral's clearly, my mistake.

Yes, that's precisely what I've been saying all along! :rolleyes: I think the guy's a huge twat, but I don't like witch hunts or trophy hunts.

[frizzlefry]

This guy knew what he was doing. When you typically hear of legal, paid trophy hunting where the profits go to conservation you are usually talking about "canned hunts". Where lions etc are bred to be hunted and kept in a fenced off preserve (usually a small one to increase the likelihood of bagging a kill). While this idea is also ethically debatable it does ensure that hunters can hunt their trophy without killing a breeding lion.

This guy was way "off the reservation" so to speak. Plus, he killed a breeding lion and his cubs will likely be killed by another male to get the mother in heat again. If the copulation fails for whatever reason this guy killed one adult and 6 cubs.

*edit* plus, the guy was with the guides when they lured him out of the park. WTF did he think they were doing?

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
This guy knew what he was doing. When you typically hear of legal, paid trophy hunting where the profits go to conservation you are usually talking about "canned hunts". Where lions etc are bred to be hunted and kept in a fenced off preserve (usually a small one to increase the likelihood of bagging a kill). While this idea is also ethically debatable it does ensure that hunters can hunt their trophy without killing a breeding lion.


It's my understanding that "canned hunting" is almost never a conservation effort as the animals bred for hunting cannot be returned to the wild. Canned hunts are looked down upon by almost all conservation groups that I know of and are outright banned in a lot of areas. (Paradoxical again, seeing as it's not much different than what we do to, say, cows.)

Conservationists prefer the "normal" hunts as they give economic incentive to restore naturally-ranging populations rather than just breed animals for slaughter.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


It's my understanding that "canned hunting" is almost never a conservation effort as the animals bred for hunting cannot be returned to the wild. Canned hunts are looked down upon by almost all conservation groups that I know of and are outright banned in a lot of areas. (Paradoxical again, seeing as it's not much different than what we do to, say, cows.)

Conservationists prefer the "normal" hunts as they give economic incentive to restore naturally-ranging populations rather than just breed animals for slaughter.

I don't disagree, but conservation is part of the marketing for canned hunts. Most groups also frown upon "normal" trophy hunting as hunters seek out the most viable members of a population for their trophy. The death of a strong, healthy trophy worthy male harms the gene pool.


A 2011 study (pdf) published by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature states that in 11 sub-Saharan countries, 272 million acres (roughly 14.9% of the land) is open to trophy hunting. Though hunters abscond with thousands of trophies each year, they invest only an average of 44 cents per acre. In some countries, like Tanzania—home to some of the continent’s lushest game reserves—they invest as little as two cents per acre. “The average contribution of hunting to GDP is 0.06%. This means they are the least economically productive lands in the country,” researchers found. “Trophy hunting does therefore not represent economically valuable land use, especially in the context of the need to abate poverty and hunger.” These reserves are essentially blood-soaked playgrounds for the rich.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Xtrema
The fact that he has a history of illegal hunts and going after endangered animals, he is not totally innocent either.

The sheep he hunted was legal. Just because an animal in endangered doesn't mean you can't hunt it.

But people who are incredibly dead set against hunting are some of the biggest hypocrites around. It's fine to raise an animal in deplorable conditions in order to eat it, but as soon as you take the life of an animal not raised on a farm as food, you're an evil person.

[blitz]

Originally posted by spikerS
It all comes down to if the hunt was legal or not. He is being crucified for nothing right now with the blind rage of public knee jerk reactions.

It doesn't really matter if it was legal or not in reality. It seems like the general public is very critical of trophy hunting and public opinion doesn't have to take into account legalities/permits in this situation.

He's still the guy who killed "everyone's" favorite lion in a very sketchy situation, even if he personally had all the T's crossed in his paperwork.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by blitz


It doesn't really matter if it was legal or not in reality. It seems like the general public is very critical of trophy hunting and public opinion doesn't have to take into account legalities/permits in this situation.

Once again, we see that crucifying someone is acceptable even when one doesn't understand what they are talking about. Just have to make sure you're on the currently popular side.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


I don't disagree, but conservation is part of the marketing for canned hunts. Most groups also frown upon "normal" trophy hunting as hunters seek out the most viable members of a population for their trophy. The death of a strong, healthy trophy worthy male harms the gene pool.



Yeah, I can certainly see both sides of it. Ideally there would be no hunting at all, but the financial realities of running animal preserves in poor African countries mean that it's probably going to happen one way or another. The animals are really the only resource the preserves have.

That ties in with your quote to a large extent. It talks about how the lands produce very little money per area, which is just common sense - animals, especially predators, have MASSIVE territories and to keep them alive you have to preserve that territory as best you can. Sure, you could get better $/acre if you farmed it or set up factories, but now the animal has lost that territory and you've defeated the purpose of the preserve in the first place. Allowing the limited trophy hunts at least allows the people running the preserve to get some income to keep the preserve going - banning the hunts drops your revenue to $0/acre and then you don't have a preserve anymore, since I don't see poor African governments ponying up the millions to keep the things running. Until the preserves have enough independent funding that they no longer need to sell hunts, the hunts are some of the only things keeping the animals' territory preserved.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


Yeah, I can certainly see both sides of it. Ideally there would be no hunting at all, but the financial realities of running animal preserves in poor African countries mean that it's probably going to happen one way or another. The animals are really the only resource the preserves have.

That ties in with your quote to a large extent. It talks about how the lands produce very little money per area, which is just common sense - animals, especially predators, have MASSIVE territories and to keep them alive you have to preserve that territory as best you can. Sure, you could get better $/acre if you farmed it or set up factories, but now the animal has lost that territory and you've defeated the purpose of the preserve in the first place. Allowing the limited trophy hunts at least allows the people running the preserve to get some income to keep the preserve going - banning the hunts your revenue to $0/acre and then you don't have a preserve anymore, since I don't see poor African governments ponying up the millions to keep the things running. Until the preserves have enough independent funding that they no longer need to sell hunts, the hunts are some of the only things keeping the animals' territory preserved.

Good points. I come from a hunting family and all the hunters I know are huge conservationists. Conservation and hunting go hand-in-hand in a lot places in Canada. Ducks unlimited for example. Personally, I don't get the attraction in hunting a predator for a trophy. But if it's legal, humane and it helps conservation efforts then I can accept it.

But, even assuming this hunt was perfectly legal, there are two other aspects of this kill that don't sit right with me. a) A bow was used. I don't think a bow is an appropriate weapon for a lion and the kill was inhumane as a result. b) This lion had cubs meaning they are, in all likelihood, going to be killed by the rival lion who was genetically weaker as is evident by the fact that he was not the breeder in Cecil's pride. Kill a large buck and his offspring live on. Kill a breeding lion you are essentially killing the cubs as well thus harming the gene pool.

[Royle9]

Big game hunts are not shrouded in mysticism, they're pretty straightforward and run pretty much the same way. It's not rocket surgery.

More details: (watch the Jimmy K video)

Lion was lured away from the protected area via animal carcass towed behind a vehicle the HUNTER himself was on.

Once away from the area, a SPOT LIGHT was directed at its face temporarily blinding the animal from the bow shot of Mr.Palmer because lord knows a fair hunt was not what he paid for.

When that didn't kill the animal they tracked it another 40 miles, and killed it with bullets. Removed the head, hide and attempted to destroy the collar. normal for sure.


That's a whole lot of speculation. I'm quite comfortable assuming that the hunt was conducted like most others, and the guides didn't discover it was a collared lion until they went to retrieve the pelt, realized they'd fucked up, and then tried to destroy the evidence. That's certainly the simplest answer. Why would he report it if he had no idea anything was out of the ordinary?

I'm sorry but Mr.Palmer clearly knew they were luring the animal away, he also knew they tried to destroy the collar are you trying to say that he could consider removing and destroying a collar is normal? I've NEVER hunted myself but sure as shit know that any time someones removing a collar and attempting to destroy the evidence, that something illegal or frowned upon has just taken place and I should probably question the actions.

Speculation aside, to say what he did is legal and not the actions of a poacher is a complete joke. I'm sure as this progresses we'll see that some civil action is taken against him. If this was all fair & legit I don't see why he would be in hiding, he knows he f_cked up AGAIN and this time it garnered worldwide attention. Good riddance.

[blitz]

Originally posted by FraserB


Once again, we see that crucifying someone is acceptable even when one doesn't understand what they are talking about. Just have to make sure you're on the currently popular side.

Where was the lack of understanding in my statement? The public doesn't care about paperwork in this case.

Situations like this can bring light onto situations that need reform. Just because something is currently legal doesn't mean it acceptable in the public eyes. Australia banned the import or export of lion trophies recently:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/13/australia-bans-hunting-trophies-from-lions-entering-or-leaving-the-country

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by frizzlefry

But, even assuming this hunt was perfectly legal, there are two other aspects of this kill that don't sit right with me. a) A bow was used. I don't think a bow is an appropriate weapon for a lion and the kill was inhumane as a result. b) This lion had cubs meaning they are, in all likelihood, going to be killed by the rival lion who was genetically weaker as is evident by the fact that he was not the breeder in Cecil's pride. Kill a large buck and his offspring live on. Kill a breeding lion you are essentially killing the cubs as well thus harming the gene pool.

Couldn't disagree more on your first point. Hunting with a bow is no more likely to wound (instead of kill) than a gun. Even the lightest poundage you're legally allowed to hunt with in Alberta (40lb) can and will put an arrow completely through a deer and kill it as quickly as a bullet will. The high-poundage compound used by the dentist would have no problem killing a lion, they're not armoured like (say) a rhino. No, the problem was a bad shot, and that can happen regardless of weapon used.

Your second point just reinforces how much I dislike trophy hunting!



Originally posted by Royle9
[B]

More details: (watch the Jimmy K video)

Lion was lured away from the protected area via animal carcass towed behind a vehicle the HUNTER himself was on.

Once away from the area, a SPOT LIGHT was directed at its face temporarily blinding the animal from the bow shot of Mr.Palmer because lord knows a fair hunt was not what he paid for.


At work, can't see video - only can go by articles. I've seen nothing with those details so far. Fuck the guy with the long dick of the law if he knew they were luring it out of the preserve, but it's also equally possible they were trying to draw the lion to an area that would allow a better-percentage shot. Shooting a lion that's hiding in the bush is a fool's errand.



When that didn't kill the animal they tracked it another 40 miles, and killed it with bullets. Removed the head, hide and attempted to destroy the collar. normal for sure.

Apart from the collar part that we discussed earlier, yeah, that's actually entirely normal. Tracking a wounded animal to finish it off isn't just normal, it's expected to minimize suffering. You don't just wing the thing and then leave it to bleed out a week later. Heads and hides are common trophy items and would certainly have been removed on any other hunt.




I'm sorry but Mr.Palmer clearly knew they were luring the animal away, he also knew they tried to destroy the collar are you trying to say that he could consider removing and destroying a collar is normal? I've NEVER hunted myself but sure as shit know that any time someones removing a collar and attempting to destroy the evidence, that something illegal or frowned upon has just taken place and I should probably question the actions.


You seem to have proof that Palmer was in full knowledge that the collar was present and attempted to be destroyed. Do you have a link for that? Everything thing I've seen gives him pretty solid deniability.



If this was all fair & legit I don't see why he would be in hiding, he knows he f_cked up AGAIN and this time it garnered worldwide attention. Good riddance.

Call me crazy, but maybe it's the death threats that sent him into hiding.

Naaaah, couldn't be. Gotta be a tactic admission of guilt, close the case!

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


Couldn't disagree more on your first point. Hunting with a bow is no more likely to wound (instead of kill) than a gun. Even the lightest poundage you're legally allowed to hunt with in Alberta (40lb) can and will put an arrow completely through a deer and kill it as quickly as a bullet will. The high-poundage compound used by the dentist would have no problem killing a lion, they're not armoured like (say) a rhino. No, the problem was a bad shot, and that can happen regardless of weapon used.

Your second point just reinforces how much I dislike trophy hunting!


There was a study done in 1987 that showed there was a 7% wounding rate with guns vs a 50% wounding rate with bows. link (http://www.animalalliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/deer-wounding-rates-deer-and-bow-hunting1998.pdf) Perhaps bows have evolved greatly since then making them easier to use/aim and if that is the case I stand corrected (I know power isn't an issue, arrows can go right through). All the hunters in my family don't use bows themselves for that reason. They just felt a quick kill was more assured with a rifle. Or perhaps it was just a preference. Either way, if you are going to shoot, make sure you are going to get it right. This guy certainly wasn't a novice, he should have waited for a cleaner shot. Unless he was in a hurry because they were poaching.

Totally agree on the death threats, unwarranted. While I don't like what he did, and think he knew very well what he was doing, I would never place the value of an animal above a person.

Apparently he has hired a PR firm.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

That study mentions only traditional equipment (recurves/longbows with no sights) not the modern telescopic-sighted compounds that are commonly used. When the dentist says he can hit a playing card at 100yds, he's not lying and that's not a particularly difficult shot for a skilled compound archer. I don't think this was a case of the wrong equipment making it unethical - it was probably the least unethical part of the whole shebang.

I can totally believe a 50% wound rate for trad gear in the mid-80s. Hell, it was probably more like 25% wounded and 50% of the arrows went flying into the bushes.

[Env-Consultant]

I personally don't agree with paying great gobs of money to go to another country and harvest their animals, especially animals of the rare and majestic kind. Honestly, what kind of a pompous fuck thinks it is okay to go to another country, kill their animals, and take them home as trophies? I get hunting for moose/elk/deer at home for meat, but really? This cocksucker has pictures with a plethora or different animals from various countries - to me, it's completely arrogant and inherently wrong.

Go to another country, enjoy their landscapes, go on trips to view and photograph their animals in their natural environment, but don't go on a spoonfed expedition, come home with trophy animals, and act like you did something special. Any dipshit could pay a guide to do this - it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Honestly, I think there is something mentally wrong with people who get their jollies from killing for the sake of killing/a trophy. For meat/actual use of the animal at home, sure. This shit? Guy needs a psyche ward. Kid kills kitten at home, we say he will be a psychopath. Rich dentist kills animals abroad and plasters photos all over the internet - if it wasn't a collared lion you know his idiot friends would be hamering LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE on Facebook. I hunt and have friends that hunt - what this guy is doing isn't hunting. It's fucked up.

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by Env-Consultant
I personally don't agree with paying great gobs of money to go to another country and harvest their aminals, especially animals of the rare and majestic kind. Honestly, what kind of a pompous fuck thinks it is okay to go to another country, kill their animals, and take them home as trophies? I get hunting for moose/elk/deer at home for meat, but really? This cocksucker has pictures with a plethora or different animals from various countries - to me, it's completely arrogant and inherently wrong.

Go to another country, enjoy their landscapes, go on trips to view and photograph their animals in their natural environment, but don't go on a spoonfed expedition, come home with trophy animals, and act like you did something special. Any dipshit could pay a guide to do this - it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Honestly, I think there is something mentally wrong with people who get their jollies from killing for the sake of killing/a trophy. For meat/actual use of the animal at home, sure. This shit? Guy needs a psyche ward. Kid kills kitten at home, we say he will be a psychopath. Rich dentist kills animals abroad and plasters photos all over the internet - if it wasn't a collared lion you know his idiot friends would be hamering LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE on Facebook. I hunt and have friends that hunt - what this guy is doing isn't hunting. It's fucked up.

Agreed. I also don't think that people who are against hunting are necessarily hypocrites as FraserB was suggesting. There's a difference between slaughtering a cow for beef and shooting something in the face like this:

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2013-11/enhanced/webdr06/18/15/enhanced-buzz-30373-1384806655-0.jpg

While I have reservations about the conditions of slaughterhouses and meat farms, that's not what this is about.

To me, and I'm making an exaggeration here, shooting a lion is like walking up to your household tabby and kicking it in the face.

However, things aren't black and white so I won't bask in my first world pedestal and paint things with a brush saying that it should stop completely. BerserkerCatSplat's points about conservation through viable means was enlightening. Sometimes you don't get the good without the bad, like keeping ZenOps as a Beyond member so we get his crazy antics :rofl:.

[Royle9]

2) Palmer didn't lure the bear, he killed it out-of-bounds and then misrepresented it to the authorities. (Think about it - why would you lure a bear away from the legally allowed hunting area during bear season?) Deplorable (and actionable, as the federal authorities proved) but certainly not any proof that he's a long-time poacher with a penchant for luring as you suggest. All evidence points to him being a fucking colossal douche, but not necessarily a poacher. [/B]

He's been convicted as a poacher already.. its all over the new's man you need to start reading the updates. Not to mention the more personal information leaking proving he's also a sexual predator to boot, hello sexual harassment lawsuit settlement.


You seem to have proof that Palmer was in full knowledge that the collar was present and attempted to be destroyed. Do you have a link for that? Everything thing I've seen gives him pretty solid deniability.

Again, take a browse through the reddit thread, its in there numerous times. He was present when the lion was lured away from the protected area, he was present when it was slaughtered and the collar destroyed (failed). He knew, he didn't care because he's an asshat.

This made me smile:

Actor Brett Gelman even left a comment on his Yelp page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Gelman


This is Brett Gelman. Actor/Writer/Comedian. Dr. Walt Palmer, when I was a young neurotic child I was afraid that there was a hell. I'd tug at my mother's shirt and would ask her if this was true, and, if it was, did she think I would be going there. Like all good mothers she told me "no."

As I grew older I came to believe that there was no hell. The world was hell. And the main reason is because of demon ####ing scum like you. You are a parasite that latches itself to the essence of life and sucks it of all its essence. There is not only no excuse for what you've done. There is no excuse for you existence. I hope your business crumbles. I hope you meet a worse fate than Cecil, the beautiful lion that you murdered.

You are jealous of your victims. That is why you kill them. Deep down you know that they are the opposite of you. They are pure. They bring beauty, goodness, and balance to the world. They deserve happiness and respect. The only thing you deserve is pain. You are subhuman scum shat from the devil's filthy #######. Oh wait! Oops! I forgot! I don't believe in the devil. Unfortunately, I believe in you, because, unfortunately, you exist.

I don't believe in hell, but I wish I did, because then I could sleep comfortably tonight knowing that someday (hopefully soon) you would be burning and rotting there. Maybe God would even let Cecil visit hell to bleed you out, skin you, and behead you for eternity. Cecil probably wouldn't do that though, because, unlike you, he would have better #### to do.

Hate,

Brett

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Royle9
[B]

He's been convicted as a poacher already.. its all over the new's man you need to start reading the updates. Not to mention the more personal information leaking proving he's also a sexual predator to boot, hello sexual harassment lawsuit settlement.



The sexual harassment stuff was in your original link, it's not new. He's a douche, we know that.




Again, take a browse through the reddit thread, its in there numerous times. He was present when the lion was lured away from the protected area, he was present when it was slaughtered and the collar destroyed (failed). He knew, he didn't care because he's an asshat.



Oh good, a Reddit thread as a source. I trust them because they found the Boston bombers so quickly!

FYI there are no actual sources in that thread that I've seen, just a whole lot of speculation like yours.



This made me smile:

Actor Brett Gelman even left a comment on his Yelp page:


Mmm, a cringeworthy diatribe from a C-list actor.

[codetrap]

.

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by codetrap
You know, I'm not going to bother reading up on this guy, because ultimately, he doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter what you're saying, or even if you're reading shit that's made up. It matters more WHY you're saying it. I posted this to facebook earlier today.. and you're proving me right, and that makes me sad for us all.

There are many reasons that we have the justice system we do, not the least of which is because "people" are easily misled, prone to emotional reactions without really thinking (or actually wanting to), and have very little regard for the penalty fitting the crime.

All this public shaming and vigilante justice is essentially social backsliding to mob rule where anyone can manipulate public opinion and destroy peoples lives far beyond the scope of actual justice. A mob doesn't have mercy, nor does it look at the facts. It's truly an unthinking and unfeeling monster running around with pitchforks and knives destroying anything that offends it.

Perhaps the real monster running around is the dentist. As I said in my previous post, trophy hunting is not something I agree with. Hunting for meat purposes, sure. Someone else in this thread posted about his buddy being an elitist pick that does this same shit - I completely agree with him. Someone I know went to Africa and raped/pillaged a pile of trophy animals as well - I let them know that I thought they needed mental health care and no longer speak to them. Extreme? I don't think so. It's mind boggling that when kids kill for the sake of killing, we label them likely psychopaths, yet when a grown adult does the same, many people praise them. When we killed pigs on a farm many, many moons ago, they would literally sniff the barrel of the gun - this is the same shit, but in the wild, in someone else's country, and serving no purpose, other than to satisfy some mental health issue the said hunter has.

Don't bullshit about conservation/etc. Many countries do use revenue from hunting to pay for staff, conservation efforts, etc., but deep down you have to know that it is so far from the right way of doing things that it's disturbing.

I took these pics in Kruger National Park in South Africa from a vehicle I rented and cruised around in. You know how easy it would be to lure and kill these things using meat? But why the fuck would you want to? That is, unless you are mentally ill.

Seriously, when you look at these, you think it's normal for someone to enjoying killing these just for the sake of killing them? It's insane. And I'm not biased toward big cats - taking a game in this manner and for these reasons is fucking disgusting. And no, I'm not a PETA loving tree hugger - just a regular, sane guy.

http://s12.postimg.org/5edf4cax9/FB_IMG_1438275768677.jpg

http://s10.postimg.org/dj39mq6af/FB_IMG_1438275845421.jpg

[SmAcKpOo]

Berserker, what exactly are you debating here? The dentist should absolutely be judged on a social level. He's participating in something a majority of the world finds ethically abhorrent.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
Berserker, what exactly are you debating here?

I'm debating that the situation may be far different than the frothing internet masses have been portraying (considering the limited details available) and that they should maybe wait for actual verified information to come out before they form a torch-wielding mob. I also don't like when people go on witch hunts because somebody did something that's legal but just gosh-darn-it offended them. I take the pragmatic stance that trophy hunting is horribly unethical but on the balance does more good than harm to the animal populations due to its use as a funding resource to maintain said populations and their territories. I'd rather it was something that was never done, but if the alternative is the loss of the preserves than I'll accept it as a necessary evil.

[chkolny541]

Originally posted by Env-Consultant
I personally don't agree with paying great gobs of money to go to another country and harvest their animals, especially animals of the rare and majestic kind. Honestly, what kind of a pompous fuck thinks it is okay to go to another country, kill their animals, and take them home as trophies? I get hunting for moose/elk/deer at home for meat, but really? This cocksucker has pictures with a plethora or different animals from various countries - to me, it's completely arrogant and inherently wrong.

Go to another country, enjoy their landscapes, go on trips to view and photograph their animals in their natural environment, but don't go on a spoonfed expedition, come home with trophy animals, and act like you did something special. Any dipshit could pay a guide to do this - it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Honestly, I think there is something mentally wrong with people who get their jollies from killing for the sake of killing/a trophy. For meat/actual use of the animal at home, sure. This shit? Guy needs a psyche ward. Kid kills kitten at home, we say he will be a psychopath. Rich dentist kills animals abroad and plasters photos all over the internet - if it wasn't a collared lion you know his idiot friends would be hamering LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE on Facebook. I hunt and have friends that hunt - what this guy is doing isn't hunting. It's fucked up.




The fact is, many african animal reserves depend on selling hunting tags for income to maintain them. Hunting is often encouraged to help with animal conservation, by removing large older non breeding males from populations it can increase the chances of their females to continue breeding. Otherwise these large non breeding males will continue to fight off younger smaller males and stifle population growth in areas. You can easily buy permits to hunt within many nature reserves for this exact reason. Just because a person is posing with a dead exotic animal, doesn't mean they are monsters.




"The Timbavati Private Nature Reserve (PNR) is a Big Game Hunter's dream!

The reserve comprises of 120,000 acres of unspoiled bushveld - open to Kruger National Park - and forms part of what is known as Greater Kruger. This arrangement allows animals including Buffalo, Lion, Leopard, Rhino and Elephant to roam freely on more than 5 million acres of land!

Limited permits are issued for Big game hunting inside the PNR and the proceeds of these hunts are pumped straight back into anti-poaching, maintaining the reserve and conservation. Only 12 year old Buffalo bulls (and older) may be hunted. You will see hundreds of buffalo and and can be picky as far as choosing an animal to hunt is concerned."

http://www.ct-safaris.com/hunting-packages.html

[rage2]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
The dentist should absolutely be judged on a social level. He's participating in something a majority of the world finds ethically abhorrent.
The double standards on who we should witch hunt and shame, yet cry bullying on others makes me laugh.

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by chkolny541





The fact is, many african animal reserves depend on selling hunting tags for income to maintain them. Hunting is often encouraged to help with animal conservation, by removing large older non breeding males from populations it can increase the chances of their females to continue breeding. Otherwise these large non breeding males will continue to fight off younger smaller males and stifle population growth in areas. You can easily buy permits to hunt within many nature reserves for this exact reason. Just because a person is posing with a dead exotic animal, doesn't mean they are monsters.




"The Timbavati Private Nature Reserve (PNR) is a Big Game Hunter's dream!

The reserve comprises of 120,000 acres of unspoiled bushveld - open to Kruger National Park - and forms part of what is known as Greater Kruger. This arrangement allows animals including Buffalo, Lion, Leopard, Rhino and Elephant to roam freely on more than 5 million acres of land!

Limited permits are issued for Big game hunting inside the PNR and the proceeds of these hunts are pumped straight back into anti-poaching, maintaining the reserve and conservation. Only 12 year old Buffalo bulls (and older) may be hunted. You will see hundreds of buffalo and and can be picky as far as choosing an animal to hunt is concerned."

http://www.ct-safaris.com/hunting-packages.html

On the surface it sounds semi-reasonable, but you have to realize you are dealing with typically corrupt governments, illegal poachers killing off animals, and quotas being intentionally and knowingly exceeded. Money raised from hunting could easily be raised via other means and/or donations from outside countries and organizations. Like I said, I truthfully believe selling tags and promoting this industry is the wrong way to go about any sort of conservation efforts. It's disturbing, attracts characters that are okay with doing what just happened, and strokes the ego of absolute maniacs. You can't honestly believe what you just posted, can you? The poachers do a good enough job as it is.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by rage2

The double standards on who we should witch hunt and shame, yet cry bullying on others makes me laugh.

lol yup.

Seal hunting?
Dog eating?
Slut shaming?
Sweat shop workers making $2/day

oh the horrors :rofl:

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by rage2

The double standards on who we should witch hunt and shame, yet cry bullying on others makes me laugh.

I'd like to think I'm reasonably consistent. I seem to remember my opinion that the Japanese whale harvest was likely quite sustainable because they were harvesting a fast-reproducing non-threatened species wasn't particularly popular.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'd like to think I'm reasonably consistent. I'd say everybody on here is, somewhat ironically, consistent. Or, at the very least, predictable.

They may pick and choose who to bully and who to defend from bullying, but I'm rarely, if ever, surprised by the opinion of an individual on here.

[cherpintow]

There are so many interesting elements to this

-A rich guy from North America travels to a far off land to gain a weird ego satisfaction from killing an exotic animal for sport

-The actual "hunt" isn't a hunt, in fact it's a staged kill that a blind infant could carry out

-For the hunters perspective, the hunt appears to be legal, so there is the whole legal vs moral debate

-There are guides who apparently champion the cause of conservation of these animals who broke the rules on boundaries of where hunts can take place

-The method used to conserve and protect the animals is to kill a few of them for money (seems counter-intuitive)

-People who feel they are on morally higher ground than others engage in a witch hunt against the human who carried out the kill

It makes for some very good debates and discussion because of all of the pieces involved

[FraserB]

It says a lot that someone killing one animal in a legally gray manner gets more press, hand wringing and internet heroes trying to ruin his life than poaching ever gets.

Each time there is a high value auction ($350k to hunt a black rhino), there is a huge public backlash. Yet there is no where near the same concern for the poaching that goes on. We heard sooo much about the permit auction and how the buyer was a horrible person, yet there isn't near the same amount of demand for action over the 1,215 rhinos that were poached that same year.

So the question to everyone up in arms about this case should be: What have you done to bring awareness to poaching of any species in Africa?

[max_boost]

Originally posted by FraserB


So the question to everyone up in arms about this case should be: What have you done to bring awareness to poaching of any species in Africa? :rofl:

That's a good one. haha

This is nothing more than the internet mobs riling up and railing on buddy. Feel bad for the guy lol

[mazdavirgin]

:dunno: Find it incredibly sad this gets people rilled up while murders and whatnot you don't hear a peep?

End of the line is it's up to the government over there to deal with this. If it's legal it's legal no matter what we think about the act. Change will only come from the government over there not this false outrage and shamming.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
:dunno: Find it incredibly sad this gets people rilled up while murders and whatnot you don't hear a peep?

End of the line is it's up to the government over there to deal with this. If it's legal it's legal no matter what we think about the act. Change will only come from the government over there not this false outrage and shamming.

STOP BULLYING ME BECAUSE I'M SHAMING THE DENTIST!!!

[rage2]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'd like to think I'm reasonably consistent. I seem to remember my opinion that the Japanese whale harvest was likely quite sustainable because they were harvesting a fast-reproducing non-threatened species wasn't particularly popular.
Not singling out anyone on here. Just an observation of the masses thanks to social media.

[killramos]

Hey guys its apparently not illegal to let your kid drown so whats the big deal with shooting a cat?

:poosie:

Why is beyond so much fun :rofl:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
:dunno: Find it incredibly sad this gets people rilled up while murders and whatnot you don't hear a peep?

End of the line is it's up to the government over there to deal with this. If it's legal it's legal no matter what we think about the act. Change will only come from the government over there not this false outrage and shamming.

BS.

That government you speak of has been installed by the U.S to rape the resources. It's not that hard to understand.

Wake the fuck up.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by killramos
Hey guys its apparently not illegal to let your kid drown so whats the big deal with shooting a cat?

:poosie:

Why is beyond so much fun :rofl:

:rofl:

We don't agree on much, but when we do :closed:

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Seth1968


BS.

That government you speak of has been installed by the U.S to rape the resources. It's not that hard to understand.

Wake the fuck up.

Your level of stupid... I don't even know where to start. You do know this occured in Zimbabwe? One of the most anti US dictatorships in the region?



Robert Mugabe and senior members of the Harare government are not allowed to travel to the United States because it is the position of the US government that he has worked to undermine democracy in Zimbabwe and has restricted freedom of the press.[149]


:nut:

Maybe it's a conspiracy? You too can join the illustrious ranks of Toma, Arash, Zenops...

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin

End of the line is it's up to the government over there to deal with this. If it's legal it's legal no matter what we think about the act. Change will only come from the government over there not this false outrage and shamming.


Is that the start and end of the argument though?

Let's say there's a hypothetical country where its legal to have sex with underaged kids. Would an American or Canadian national be allowed to go over there, commit the act, and then come back home and have it all be over?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Super_Geo



Is that the start and end of the argument though?

Let's say there's a hypothetical country where its legal to have sex with underaged kids. Would an American or Canadian national be allowed to go over there, commit the act, and then come back home and have it all be over?

There are, (ages as low as 14) and we actually have laws against child sex tourism though.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[bignerd]

Unfortunately, in many courts of law, ignorance of the law, is not a valid defense...

Also, as someone had pointed out before, he is not new to hunting, I am sure he knew exactly what was going on, and if not, that something was amiss about the way the hunt went down.

Yes, perhaps they could not see the collar on the animal, but assuming the guides were local or somewhat local, and this lion was apparently very well known, one would think they might recognize it. The fact that the GPS collar was damaged/hidden and no one came forward to report their hunting "mistake" to the authorities speaks volumes.

And whoever commented earlier about chasing an animal out of a protected park to hunt it, that is also illegal, considered harassing wildlife. If it wanders out on its own, fine. But to be lured or chased out would be illegal.

It is just another example of a rich person using their wealth to buy and take advantage of whatever they want. Regardless of the circumstances, safe to say he has fucked his career and business royally and his $50,000 hunting trophy is going to cost him a lot more than he expected.

[rage2]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/28/africa/zimbabwe-lion-killed/


The saddest part of all is that, now that Cecil is dead, the next lion in the hierarchy, Jericho will most likely kill all Cecil's cubs so that he can insert his own bloodline into the females," Rodrigues said. "This is standard procedure for lions."

This is so wrong. How can we let Jericho kill a bunch of kids and rape their moms? That's insanity. Where do I sign a petition?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by rage2

This is so wrong. How can we let Jericho kill a bunch of kids and rape their moms? That's insanity. Where do I sign a petition?

Well it's negligence on the moms parts to let their kids be killed, so they need to be punished.

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


It would be counter intuitive if it wasn't a proven and highly successful approach to conservation.

Case & Point: Ducks Unlimited

http://www.ducks.ca/



You're overlooking rampant corruption, poaching, and oversight that affect populations of animals in countries outside of North America. The work DU does here, including monitoring and working with authorities, does not remotely resemble what is going on throughout Africa. Nowhere remotely close to an apples to apples comparison. Suggest trying again. Money can be raised and populations can be managed in numerous different ways other than ego/tiny cock-stroking style hunting.

I love how people are throwing out extreme examples and trying to give us a hard time for pointing out how fucked up this whole situation is. It is fucked. Completely fucked.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


If you are done your wild presumptuous rant, I was very specifically addressing this quote with my post:

DU Just happens to be a very good overall model for sustainability, rather than idiotic hippy ideals railed off by armchair internet warriors that don't work

Wild presumptions? We are discussing the killing of a lion in Africa, someone posts about killing being counter-intuitive to conservation, and you throw out DU as an example? What did you expect? Praise for making such a genius connection? DU methods fall apart when corruption and lack of monitoring come into play - e.g. in places like Africa.

Idiotic hippy ideals? I don't think it's "idiotic" or "hippy", nor do I feel like an "internet warrior" for pointing out how sad and ridiculous it is that this is where we are at as a society. We can't stop something horrible from happening, so let's charge money for it :nut: . Doesn't work well in Africa.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Well you can't protect them with hopes and dreams

Hunters taking ownership of population sustainability is pretty much one of the most effective ways to help conservation.

I'm not disagreeing with that. The situations are just vastly and uniquely different. Not trying to get into a pissing match with you - just took your comment to be directly related to Africa. Too much BS and crap going on there to replicate the model. Even DU is far from perfect - donations and projects come in many shapes and forms, and from many different industry donors.

[l/l/rX]

I posted this on my friends FB post.

"By no means am I condoning the killing of Cecil, but the reality is, if you pay your dues you can hunt lion or any other trophy animal as long as you have the money to obtain a permit, these guides just fucked up and hunted the wrong, protected lion. To obtain a permit to hunt lions, polar bears in Canada, or any other trophy animal, everything get's approved by the government. Soo, really who's to blame here? None of the articles state that his hunting permit was fake, forged or whatever. Think about that for a min.

The hunt itself wasn't illegal (until someone can dig me up an article saying his permits were fake), but his aim sure sucked fucking balls, having chased the lion down for 40 hours, which in that itself should be a crime for sure, and the fact that they tried to smash up his gps collar and hide that up afterwards.

My point is, if you guys don't like trophy hunting, it's not the hunters you should be mad at, it's the gov't that are handing out legal permits to allow this to happen."

edit: from the brief research i've done on the internet, seems like the standard way to lure lion in for a hunting excursion is to hang a carcass of the back of a truck. So that seems legal, as it's posted on every african hunting website that I visited. But for a "seasoned" hunter to be that far off in aim for the lion to put up a fight for 40 hours....ehh

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by l/l/rX
I posted this on my friends FB post.

"By no means am I condoning the killing of Cecil, but the reality is, if you pay your dues you can hunt lion or any other trophy animal as long as you have the money to obtain a permit, these guides just fucked up and hunted the wrong, protected lion. To obtain a permit to hunt lions, polar bears in Canada, or any other trophy animal, everything get's approved by the government. Soo, really who's to blame here? None of the articles state that his hunting permit was fake, forged or whatever. Think about that for a min.

The hunt itself wasn't illegal (until someone can dig me up an article saying his permits were fake), but his aim sure sucked fucking balls, having chased the lion down for 40 hours, which in that itself should be a crime for sure, and the fact that they tried to smash up his gps collar and hide that up afterwards.

My point is, if you guys don't like trophy hunting, it's not the hunters you should be mad at, it's the gov't that are handing out legal permits to allow this to happen."

Read the posts and known information. It was illegal, the lion was illegally baited off a reservation and the two guides have been charged with poaching.

The main issue at contention is whether the American knew what they were doing was illegal. He is pleading ignorance, while others say it was obviously illegal and he knew it.

This hunt was deemed illegal by the government that hands out trophy permits.

[l/l/rX]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Read the posts and known information. It was illegal, the lion was illegally baited off a reservation and the two guides have been charged with poaching.

The main issue at contention is whether the American knew what they were doing was illegal. He is pleading ignorance, while others say it was obviously illegal and he knew it.

This hunt was deemed illegal by the government that hands out trophy permits.

Edit: I won't disagree with you on how the animal was hunted was illegal.

The hunt was legal, permits were obtained, they just killed a lion that was protected. Your issue with whether or not the american knew what he was doing was illegal in terms of bringing the lion out of bounds or whatever... i don't think they have that boundary clearly identified TBH. That blame would be on the guides. Everything after that, yea he fucked up.

The hunt itself, getting the excursion rolling was legal though, unless someone can prove me wrong otherwise.

Edit: MY MAIN point is... as stated in my original post, wouldn't be here if the permit wasn't granted by the GOV'T.

[chkolny541]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Read the posts and known information. It was illegal, the lion was illegally baited off a reservation and the two guides have been charged with poaching.

The main issue at contention is whether the American knew what they were doing was illegal. He is pleading ignorance, while others say it was obviously illegal and he knew it.

This hunt was deemed illegal by the government that hands out trophy permits.

People keep saying that luring the animal off the reserve was illegal. Could somebody please link an article specifically saying its illegal to do so in Zimbabwe? Its shady as HELL, very very scummy, no doubt about that ,but I also cant find anything that specifically states its illegal.


"A source familiar with the situation, who wishes to remain unnamed, says big cats may be lured out of protected areas into hunting concessions with bait. "

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07/21/death-of-zimbabwes-best-loved-lion-ignites-debate-on-sport-hunting/


My personal understanding of the case is that the only illegal thing the guide (Theo Bronkhorst) did was not secure proper tags.

[sexualbanana]

Can someone explain to me what one of these baited hunts look like?

I drag a carcass of something behind my truck for awhile until a lion comes.
How far away is this carcass from my truck?
A lion comes and starts gnawing away at the carcass.
Assuming the line is like 10ft away, I sit in the back of my truck with my bow ready to shoot.
While the lion is busy eating, I fire a bow at him

Is that right? Because that seems to be the picture being painted by a lot of people.

[codetrap]

.

[SmAcKpOo]

Originally posted by l/l/rX



Edit: MY MAIN point is... as stated in my original post, wouldn't be here if the permit wasn't granted by the GOV'T.

If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government wouldn't be issuing permits.

[rage2]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government wouldn't be issuing permits.
If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government would be issuing permits a lot cheaper than $50k.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo


If there wasn't a demand for this sort of thing then the government wouldn't be issuing permits.

Without the money and jobs created by the hunting industry, there would be less land for these animals, there would be less of them and there would be more poaching and illegal trade of animals/parts.

People might like to think that it is "easy" to raise the equivalent money, but the fact is it isn't. The guy paying $50k to go hunt a lion isn't going to just give them $50k randomly and stay home. They raised $350k in one night by auctioning off the right to hunt a rhino that was practically dead at the time, how much time do you think it would take to raise the equivalent sum by using traditional fundraising?

[rx7boi]

http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lion-murderer-walt-palmer-has-done-more-for-conservatio-1720901473?utm_content=buffer1ed18&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Talks about how trophy hunting is financially viable and even plays a certain role in conservation.

Proof that there are ways to use human greed to do good.

[blitz]

Originally posted by FraserB


Without the money and jobs created by the hunting industry, there would be less land for these animals, there would be less of them and there would be more poaching and illegal trade of animals/parts.

Only the government came back and said that no tickets were issued for the hunt, so that $50k was just pocketed by the guides and landowner, who have been charged with illegal poaching.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by blitz


Only the government came back and said that no tickets were issued for the hunt, so that $50k was just pocketed by the guides and landowner, who have been charged with illegal poaching.

In this case, the process was abused by the guides and they broke the law at the expense of both the park and their client.

It doesn't change the fact that the trophy hunting industry in Africa is worth north of $200 million dollars and 10,000 jobs. Or the resurgence in rhino numbers in South Africa as a result of the government issuing permits to hunt them.

Either way, 99% of people unhappy with this are merely bandwagon jumpers looking for the latest social media drama to feel outraged about. After this dies down, they'll go back to whatever they were doing before and not care nearly as much about the poaching that occurs every day.

[sexualbanana]

To Rage's earlier point about outing the dentist....

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/30/9074865/cecil-lion-palmer-mob-justice

[max_boost]

Originally posted by FraserB


Either way, 99% of people unhappy with this are merely bandwagon jumpers looking for the latest social media drama to feel outraged about. After this dies down, they'll go back to whatever they were doing before and not care nearly as much about the poaching that occurs every day.

:werd: :werd: :werd:

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by codetrap
You're funny. You accuse them of being corrupt, then go to comment that they can easily raise money.. in a place where the average guy makes like a dollar a day. But they'll definitely take outside donations and use them appropriately because they're not corrupt at all... You're not thinking. You're emotionally reacting.

Seems kindof the crux here.. It's not our society. Different society, different values.


As for the rest of it.. it's all pitchforks and torches and let's lynch him. Nobody's thinking really, they're all just out for blood because it's the internet cause of the day and nobody really cares of the legality of it. Next week they'll be out for blood from some other poor sap over some other popular injustice.


The money raised would not be doled out and managed by their government - obviously it would not be a lump sum given to their government. Work with external organizations would be required. I didn't say I had all the answers - it would be a huge undertaking with an extremely large number of checks and balances. So yes, I was actually thinking, but I wasn't planning on laying out a 50 point plan for people who can't think passed step 1. Very difficult undertaking, but completely possible IMO. Giving money directly to some of the leaders in Africa would likely result in it being pocketed.... something I did not suggest in any way/shape/form.

It's not a different society - the dentist and many other trophy hunters come from seemingly advanced societies. As you said, many people in Africa male <$1/day, while members of our society take advantage of that to pillage their biological resources.

With respect to the lynch mob - yes, far worse things are going on in Syria, Isreal/Palestinian, etc. - however, many people have a hard time identifying (not that I agree with this) with other distant societies. I studied charismatic animals and the raising of funds for the most charstmatic animals in the world for a year about 6 years ago - the fact of the matter is that people see them as completely helpless and are typically willing to donate to protect them. Yes, they evoke an emotional response, but I wouldn't say that I wasn't against trophy hunting prior to this event. As I stated earlier, I haven't spoken to someone I know in years since learning the went to Africa and bagged a pile of animals - does it help much? No, but I'd rather not associate with someone I consider to be in need of serious psychological help. The fact remains that many of us believe it is wrong and have believed that for as long as we can remember. Elitist, egotistical, and just plain pathetic.

So, wonderful attempt at undermining anything I said and trying to sound reasonable, but telling someone they're funny, emotionally reacting, and not thinking is a super disrespectful.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by rx7boi
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lion-murderer-walt-palmer-has-done-more-for-conservatio-1720901473?utm_content=buffer1ed18&amp;utm_medium=social&amp;utm_source=facebook.com&amp;utm_campaign=buffer

Talks about how trophy hunting is financially viable and even plays a certain role in conservation.

Proof that there are ways to use human greed to do good.

Conservation is boots on the ground. Ducks Unlimited, while it has flaws, actually has hunters with boots on the ground doing something voluntarily. I spent a summer out east with the hunting side of my family and every weekend they would take me out with them while they moved duck nests to better locations, removed illegal traps etc. Tended to the environment.

Just throwing 50k at a commonly corrupt service in a commonly corrupt government is no way to conserve anything. To hell with the land, the dude weakened the species. Took out a breeding lion and his cubs will follow shortly if not already. The weaker lion will do the fucking now. Keep that up and nobody will want to hunt them because a mountain lion will be more impressive.

It's exploiting the animals. Does it inject cash into conservation? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And that's the problem. Too much corruption.

A better solution would be for the humans that live there to stop breeding more humans into an unsustainable environment. That's really the root problem here. :dunno: