Tesla P85D Experiences

[Tearin]

We (hubby and I) bought a Tesla P85D (our wedding gift to each other) in the winter, asking for late spring delivery, and now have three summer months of commuting and 3 road trips under our belt, so we have a bit of insight we can offer up.

We posted a pic in the "Post Your Latest Purchase" thread and got a handful of questions in the first couple of days, including a request for some driving impressions.

Hubby has a lot of experience in cars, under the hood (there a hoist in my garage now!), designing (Aero Tech, Mec E, most of an EE degree) modifying, racing, etc, so, I asked if he'd spend the time to offer up his insight on the forum...he hasn't been on here in years (back when Rage had his 944T) so we'll both post under my account, as he said he'd answer some q's as they arise...and I can give my perspectives too.

We'll get to q's as time allows over the next while, providing both summer and winter experiences with the car, city and trip experiences, etc, but we felt we needed to create/link to this thread tonight to offload the other thread from our long replies over there... (page 513/514 of that thread) (http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/post-your-latest-purchase/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50387&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=513)

[Weapon_R]

I see one of these parked in the underground lot of my building at work right off Deerfoot. Is that you?

[ianmcc]

Would like to hear of your experiences with winter driving conditions esp. in -30°C weather.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I see one of these parked in the underground lot of my building at work right off Deerfoot. Is that you?

Depends which building. If it's the building I'm thinking of, it's not him.

[Tearin]

We park DT.

[Tearin]

Our ride:

[Tearin]

Originally posted by ianmcc
Would like to hear of your experiences with winter driving conditions esp. in -30°C weather.

RAIN - I've driven it in torrential and average rain with the Michelin Pilot Sport PS 2, and so far the TC seems good and both engines seem to work together (the mechanical engineer in me was curious about how well they would be integrated - can't wait for testing that in snow and ice). I also had it hydroplaning in deeper troughs 2x now (learning the wet speed limits of the tires), and recovery was as expected.

MISC - So that was "basically" straight line testing only of the cars systems and tires, as I haven't gone out of my way to push the cornering limits of the car on the road (nor should I - better info on the TC and motor integration will come in the winter, and also next year if I take it out autox'ing - after I see how the Michelins are wearing).

On a trip to Golden thru Rogers Pass, it did as well as can be expected given its weight (and lets just say none of the other 3 folks in the car got any sleep in the pass (and there was very little traffic to worry about!) - the car really needs hail mary handles, even with the 2015 NextGen seats - which I highly recommend for anyone thinking of buying, if you do spirited driving), but, I was actually nowhere near the traction limit of the tires, so I can't say that was a great performance test either.

I am sure I could find a bit of time in the next few weeks to do some loss of control testing at slower speeds of the g forces and TC and predictability of the car, and I have some other "street tire" driving data I can compare the Tesla to (I have "some" :) history with a thoroughly modified 944T, and a turbo'ed Miata - wet rubber, dry, winter studded, and R compounds are on rims for each car - various Toyo, Kumho, Hoosier, Michelin, Hankook, Nokian, Goodyear...quite a bit of history and will provide an OK comparison to help judge the Tesla handling a bit better - having said that, it is a bit of an apples to oranges situation between those cars vs a 4dr sedan, but i'll try :eek: - actually the 4750# Trailblazer SS with studded snowtires and Goodyear F1s will give some info to compare too...unlike the others, it has TC, is AWD, and weights the same (but CoG much higher), so maybe its not an orange like the other two cars, but its at least a pear as compared to the Tesla "apple" and hence possibly being able to do an A-B-C comparison and get good info. For sedans, I guess testing against an RS7 at 4450# would be the closest I can think of - or the E63 AMG at 4270#)...

So all of the show and tell with the car thus far has been of the the "straight line speed" variety and 3.2sec launches (3.2 verified many times with a passenger, on regular asphalt, w Michelin PS 2's, and bidirectional testing), but, I will get in some light testing this fall pushing the tires to their adhesion (and my) limits. I probably should have done this already before driving it too much (4500km so far), so I know the limits and the emergency response and recovery characteristics of the tires and the car (incl its TC).

WINTER - I also am curious how the range will be affected...cold temps necessitate both heating of the cabin and the batteries, and also the range drops due to a large increase in rolling resistance pushing snow. Having said that, I have Nokian Hakkapelitta 8's for the car, so that might affect the max adhesion somewhat compared to others who might be on all seasons or regular winters from Tesla, but I think with 5000 pounds and 690 Hp (and more of the 690 HP will be accessible past 30mph, once the Ludicrous upgrade is done...hopefully soon - store is almost here, lets hope the shop follows), I should :D still be able to get the tires past the point of adhesion, try some emergency maneuvering, get her to do same (very important imo, this is her first high Hp and first 5000# car) and report back on the cars recovery and TC, and how the two engines interact on ice and also in the snow.

See the other thread for my comments on my summer range being down over 25%, and winter I expect will be about 40% down for me...ymmv...Based on three years of Model S's now, others report on -30C cold days, 35-40% down, -20C, 25-30% down. And note that its near impossible for most to hit the Tesla advertised maximum range, I'll never be able to do it, and a 20% on a 15-25C day drop in peak range is typical for most people who drive "at speed". 55mph = 300mi (480km) max range claimed to meet gov testing parameters, 70mph = 246mi (395km) per Tesla...22% range drop at 112kph average speed for the trip...

tl/dr: 5000# 690Hp Sedan performs as expected given limited street testing thus far (and what can be done without having Race City). Drive faster, range drops, a lot. Some still curious about -30C wrt its range (tho it is purported to be down up to 40% per other Tesla owners. Most still curious about a P85 Dual Motor in the snow and ice - including yours truly who is looking forward to be able to test all of this at less than death defying speeds (i.e.: no track in Calgary), and the winter conditions will afford us that luxury at reasonable speeds. Lots more limit testing/feedback will be available without the high speeds and much more serious accident potential, and chewing up of the PS 2's, as would happen in the summer when forcing the car past tire adhesion limits.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Can you give your impressions of road noise levels on the highway. Thanks.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
Can you give your impressions of road noise levels on the highway. Thanks.

Interesting q. In all my others cars engine and exhaust noise beats out tires and wind, and of course, I consider it loud, but something we just deal with travelling at 110 kph. In the Telsa, its much much less noise....but that's a very quick answer. There's a few things to consider.

I would have never noticed the small whine from the front motor unless the forum folks who had the P85+ mentioned it when they heard the motor in the P85D. Its very minor.

Wind noise, its there, but again, in all ICE cars I have, the engine drones it out to the most part, so its kindof neat that you CAN hear it.

Tires are not as loud as I thought they would be. With the radio off, you do hear them (and these are the summers), its not loud, its just that you aren't used to hearing them in a ICE car. So it takes some getting used to (one trip). But really, its SOOO much less noise than exhaust whine on the highway, its neat to actually be able to hear. And with the radio at 30-40%, you dont hear ANY of that.

Open the sunroof, and of course, wind noise gets loud. Ditto windows, about the same as any car at speed, as you'd expect...the radio has to go up 3 notches to hear it again, but of course the wind noise is still there competing with the radio then...same as other cars we are used to hearing.

Now, I bet with the studded snow tires on (which I can hear on all my other vehicles when I'm not accelerating or above 3500 rpm), I say, subjectively, those tires are considerably louder than normal ones (I never hear my summer tires on other ICE cars), so yes, the studded tires will be more noticeabale I figure. But again, still less peak dB than an engine would be. So it'll be just a different noise, and less of it...pick your poison: for an ICE car, its having louder exhaust drone at say 2800 rpm on the highway, vs any studded tire drone and wind noise dominating as the the background white noise in the Tesla. But I always have music on, and its one car where you can appreciate having 12 speakers and feel like its a good option to actually have paid for...I get to listen to music as a level that you can still easily talk over, to converse with you passengers.

Scientifically speaking, I am sure people have tested the dB levels in the cars already at 110kph, and I bet its 25% as loud as a regular car. Subjectively, it was realy easy for the brain to ignore the tire and wind sound. I blocked it out quickly.

The biggest thing I (and any passenger) misses is the engine sound on acceleration. I am sure soon, if not already, there will be an app that monitors the throttle, and mimics a Ferrari/Lambo note, etc using the stereo system, as I actually miss that the most. And the passengers also miss it as there is usually an exhaust sound warning that the driver has floored it, so they can brace....there is no warning that the, who knows?, 1000 ft lbs? of torque (don't quote me on that number) was just released by the driver, and so they are riding an unpredictable roller coaster without that first bit of noise feedback (tho in the Tesla, the exhaust noise feedback app would still be too slow to react, much like I am sure it would be too late for the passenger to brace in any 1000 ft lb torque car too - when they hear the exhaust, its already too late in that "car" too :D .

[Tearin]

Just looked it up (Edmunds)

62.5dB at full throttle, 61.7 at 70 mph cruise (so most of that is wind noise)

They didn't have info on the RS7 or E63 AMG (cars I will use a lot as comparison to the P85D), so lets look at one Edmunds did have, the BMW M4: 66.7dB at 70mph, and of course, much much louder 86.6dB at full throttle. Psychoacoustics says every 10dB is a doubling of the perceived sound volume, so its not quite half as quiet in the Tesla, but again, thats cause of the fact you are pushing a same sized car as the M4 thru the air at 70mph...but go up a hill and the Tesla is now over 5x quieter than the M4...the tires make much less noise than than the wind and exhaust when cruising in an M4, and the same will be said for the Tesla. A nice steady 61dB is very very easy to talk over, and the stereo doesn't need to be turned up very loud.

Saying it another way, relatively, you will notice the tires more, as they don't have to compete with the engine. Thinking out loud (and not doing any math) you'd have to look at what contributes what and add the log scales appropriately. In the M4 maybe the tires are 50dB, wind 57 and exhaust 56, summing to a number in the mid 60's (didn't do the math). In the Tesla assume the same 50dB for the tires, wind 55dB (smoother car), and maybe motor 40dB (which is negligible to the calc at log 10 base). The total SPL is lower by over 50% in the Tesla, so you notice the tires more (for a while, till you get used to it). And I don't find the summer tires a drone type noise at all, and I've had droning noise at certain rpms before with some exhaust systems in SUV cabins at cruise...

...but, I reserve the right to throw out all calcs when those winter tires are on there, even if they are say 55dB of contribution and hence I expect more noticeable (but should still be less than the old engine noise was)...but, it'll be the subjective quality of that sound that might get to me (metallic droning?). Which isn't a problem on summer tires, but I know the pitch of Hak winter studded tires, so time will tell.

Another q that we can't answer till the winter (and not a lot posted in the forums about it - but I went ahead anyways and got the Hak 8's)

[ricosuave]

n/m

[rage2]

Originally posted by Tearin
Just looked it up (Edmunds)

62.5dB at full throttle, 61.7 at 70 mph cruise (so most of that is wind noise)

They didn't have info on the RS7 or E63 AMG (cars I will use a lot as comparison to the P85D), so lets look at one Edmunds did have, the BMW M4: 66.7dB at 70mph, and of course, much much louder 86.6dB at full throttle. Psychoacoustics says every 10dB is a doubling of the perceived sound volume, so its not quite half as quiet in the Tesla, but again, thats cause of the fact you are pushing a same sized car as the M4 thru the air at 70mph...but go up a hill and the Tesla is now over 5x quieter than the M4...
To be fair, you're comparing ICE cars that are designed to be as loud as legally possible at WOT, so not really a fair comparison there. In the M4's case, 1/2 that noise is blasting from the speakers.

[Tearin]

True Dat! :)

[Dumbass17]

Ooooh so that's what my neighbours car is! Keep walking by it and forget to look, sharp car!

[Tearin]

NOISE, AGAIN - Driving the car today, I realized one more thing that might be worth mentioning about road noise on the highway.

Due to less background noise, even at crusing speeds, the Tesla is soooo much better on handsfree bluetooth (was tested on an Apple 5S, HTC One, and work BB's) on the phone, the other person always hears me and I always hear the other person, no feedback either...ditto for NAV commands...they come thru so much easier without having to turn the volume up so high that it almost hurts (i.e.: the TB SS - every day on the commute, climbing out of the river valley by Seton makes us stop all phone convos for a minute, unless the stereo or phone is cranked...having to shout over the engine noise, or even not able to hear the other person and gettng distracted, asking them to speak up, etc...really isn't ideal, esp when you are talking on the work cell..so, I guess I'm suggesting that its just easier to sound professional, with less interruptions, and less raising of voices, less distraction, etc, while driving the Tesla...

...actually, also, I bet I am more focused on the road because I am not focused on the lousy bluetooth, whether talking to work, or friends...and please, no comments about drivers being distracted while on a quality handfree call, unless you think talking to your car passengers should be banned too....we've been doing that for years. With handfree dialing, excellent phone integration, and the low noise of the Tesla at all times, it now is finally just as easy as talking to someone in the car right beside you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its "a lot" safer than ICE cars while talking on handsfree, its more of an ancillary benefit of the EV car...I can say for sure I am less focused on the car noise affecting the call, raising my voice, asking the reciprocal, etc..."can you hear me now?" ...and so I'm more focused on driving, and am able to speak as effortlessless as if I was talking to a passenger...its only a minor issue/improvement wrt my distraction level in an ICE car on handsfree...and statistically probably won't prevent an accident for me over my driving life, but that one time someone cuts you off, a deer jumps out, you wander between lanes, etc, while you are on an important call and (yes, we all should pull over for those calls, sure, yet thats sooo much fun to try and do while on Deerfoot, you have to go quite a ways to pull off the highway and its feeders to reach a safe place to take an important phone call - very very few people do it, so, lets assume that is the typical situation, as it is legal to do so as long as you aren't deemed distracted - again, its legal to talk to your passenger, so lets see if on calls an EV can reduce distraction levels, the answer is yes) so, you're possibly distracted trying to turn up the volume on the phone (or the stereo), or raising your voice enough to talk over the engine and maybe getting distracted, or maybe your focused more on trying to figure out what the heck your boss was saying vs driving, as you pulled away from the light, adding to stress levels, distraction, etc, etc, albeit its a small chance, it may happen to someone, at some time, but its minor, and we "should" be able to adjust volumes without crashing a car, so this isn't significant, but I really haven't had to adjust the volume or fiddle with a single call in the car since we got it (and I've been doing process safety and risk engineering for the oil sands industry for many many years now, so I judge things this way, both at and away from work - poor wife - but, she always seems to gravitate to engineers - for good or bad - there a whole other thread that I am sure someone has written about in the past on Beyond...wrt dating engineers). So, its not THE reason to get an EV, but its a nice small benefit to offset only a minor amount of the EV's downsides (such as range). To me, the reason is much more for access to a full 690Hp (post Ludicrous upgrade). For my wife, the autopilot features (which many other high end cars also have, the RS7 is even better imo), and the potential new features that may come with the Tesla autopilot in the next year...but they should have a HUD, and an IR or Radar...really really really missed the boat there...could be the biggest mistake they made with the 2015 Autopilot. And MAYBE it will be retrofittable for those of us who have the autopilot now, if the Model S gets it in the future, but I doubt it.

So, getting back to the noise levels, its more that the person on the other end of the phone can't tell whether I'm driving to or from work, or sitting at home working on the computer. It sounds that good, but this also could be the soundproofing and stereo system in a Tesla too. I can't say a Leaf with its different body shape and wind noise, and its lower price point (hence, likely lesser sound deadening and lower end stereo?) won't have a slightly worse experience than us using handsfree...but for all pure EV, there's still no engine noise to compete with, whether accelerating away from red lights, climbing hills etc, all the things that I find are annoying when on handfree in other cars...

And again, all bets are off once I put the winter studs on the car; I am sure the stereo will need to go up a notch at cruising speed, which then I suspect will just be starting to be at the same volume as regular conversation, so having to put the stereo and noise up another notch might mean this isn't quite as perfect as it has been using the phone/NAV in the summer. But personally, I still will chose the studs at the expense of some phone performance any day.

tl/dr: Handfree phone and NAV is about a good as it can get in a Tesla using our phones, no engine noise to interfere with convos when accelerating as lights turn green, climbing hills,etc, no feedback loop (volumes are low)...summary: phone calls are almost as seamless as turning to your passenger and having a convo with them.

[B18C]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I see one of these parked in the underground lot of my building at work right off Deerfoot. Is that you?


That would be me most likely :)

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by B18C



That would be me most likely :)

Figured it was! Beautiful car, cogratulations.

[birdman86]

Are you gonna get one of those robot dildo charger things?

uMM0lRfX6YI

[Tearin]

Originally posted by birdman86
Are you gonna get one of those robot dildo charger things?



I saw that last month, yep, figured, geez, that can't be cheap. I suspect it was done more to be gimmicky than practical. But, they do have the system where you just step out of your car outside the garage, and it self parks ("soon" to be activated/allowed while on private property). I guess that would be when this actually might be usable. I've only got 8' doors on the garage (don't even get me started about that - missed the building of the wife's house by only 2 years when we started dating, and ya, I would have put in 9' doors), AND the Tesla is a hugely wide car (to fit 8000 batteries in it), so the mirrors clear the rubber trim on the garage by only about 5-10cm on each side, so I will for sure use the self park feature once that's activated, but that robot plug has got to be north of a thousand bucks, so, I can't see me buying it.

We have the Tesla 100 Amp wall charger and I installed our unit on the drivers rear, where the plug is, and its cord is long enough that it can reach to the stalls on either side of the main parking spot, in case we shuffle parking around.

Filling up is as expected: Instead of every week filling up for 5 minutes at the gas station, sun or snow, I just pull into the garage, step out of the car, and plug it in each night. It takes 20-30 seconds, and as long as its on the correct side, its like 5 steps from the drivers door to the back wall of the garage and its done. So the robot really doesn't have that much extra appeal. It's not having to gas up in the winter thats a nice bonus.

If they offer it to us cheap (<$1K - and I say not very likely, even for current owners who might get a "discount"), and IF the self park feature gets activated and works, then maybe...but I already spent to get the 100A charger, so it'll probably mean having to try to sell that unit, as I am sure this will be integrated with a new/different 100Amp charger, and probably like a $3-5K hit as it might need mods at the car side too (I think the 100Amp charger was already like $750 as an option, so unless we can sell ours for 500 used (ha) and the new one is under 1K (ha), then I wont upgrade...even if there is a good payback as we intend to keep the car for 10+ years.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by B18C



That would be me most likely :)

I got to drive it out of his garage the other day. Happiest 20 feet I've ever driven.

[KRyn]

Originally posted by Tearin


we intend to keep the car for 10+ years.

Will the batteries even last that long?

[snowcat]

Originally posted by KRyn


Will the batteries even last that long?

Battery swap takes 90 seconds.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by snowcat


Battery swap takes 90 seconds.

That idea is abandoned. Right now, the material cost of 7000 cell is about $21K. Then you have to build them into packs and install them. Most estimates are $40-$50K.

So when those cells fails in the 9th year, even with the promise that cells with reduce 30% in cost by 2017 and assume another 30% by 2020, you start still looking at $20K to replace a 85kwh pack.

[Tearin]

BATTERY - It seems that Tesla figures the batteries are good for a fair bit more than 8 years (hence the length of warranty), and based on the first 3 years of the Model S battery performance it seems that 8 years out there might be 10% average, 20% worst case range loss in the packs. If you charge and discharge fully each time, of course there will be more potential range loss, but there's no real world numbers that I've seen about this yet, just potential extrapolations.

But there may be reasons to swap out a battery besides just 10% range loss. Tesla is pushing for a 7% increase in range each year from their batteries (seems aggressive - since the 85kW pack came out, a few years ago, it took till just now to announce the 90kW pack, claiming 6% extra range). But this is what they say.

Here in Canada, the issue is the winter driving, with snow, wind, etc, and how it can affect the range, particularly when trying to make it long disances between Superchargers. As an example, for us, even with a new battery pack, trying to make it all the way to Fernie in the winter will push the limits of the battery already, even at 55mph average speed, so if the batteries do improve in range, it might be worth doing.

Say a 100 kW pack is available in 5 years, I might consider buying it as I will be able to reach Fernie with a pack that size, even at -10C and a 40kph headwind. Tesla would take back our 85kW pack for rebuild, and will offer "some" amount for the core. And, getting another 85 pack might not even be an option 8 years out, the same 7000+ cells might put out 100kW.

Having said all that, the prices quoted in the post above are a bit high. At end of year 8, Tesla's VP has stated they will swap out an 85kW pack to a new one for 12K USD (the question is whether, in 2020 when the first ones come out of warranty, will this price be achievable). They say their new Gigafactory will drop the battery/cell prices 30%, so I am sure that is part of it.

So who knows how I'll feel 5 years out (and lets hope at only 5 years of use and maybe 10% range loss, we are offered a good amount in exchange for our cores). The test of how much we will get will be realized in the next year by the guys who are thinking of going from P85D to P90D; how much did it actually cost them for the battery swap. Once a few have done it, the Tesla forums will give us a better idea on pro-rated core exchange costs...there just isn't much info out there now except a couple of guys who upgraded their 60's to 85's... ...Tesla's "retail" costs were $45K for the 85kW and $37K for the 60kW pack, but the 60kW core trade in value was pro-rated down 20% from $37K to only $30K. So, they actually paid only 15K to go from a 60 to 85...repeating the math, lets say an 85 to 90 swap should be 0.8 * $45K = $36K refund on the core, and lets say the new 90kW pack is $47.5K, so then its only $11.6K for that swap, if the core is under two years old (we only have hard data for the prorated core costs up to 2 years out - maybe more details are out there, I didnt look too hard, but the key is the core still gets a fairly good exchange price, even possibly at 10% loss of range 8 years out...so, it's not a full retail price to get a new battery)....the math shows why a new pack could actually be $12K. But, who knows what the actual core exchange ratios will be 8 years out.

So, it'll still be a dent in our wallets, but better battery packs will also be available, and should (I hope?) be under $20K CDN to upgrade to say a 100 kW. Others may not see the economics to spend that much to go from 85 (that's really ony say 76.5kW 8 years out) back to maybe a 100kW if that's the pack we get offered in 8 years, but for us personally, we just won't be able to take the Tesla skiing once the battery range is down 10% in say 5 years, OR if its really cold, deep snow, headwind, combinations of same, etc. The issue is the time to recharge, say an hour to get 10% more in the battery, adding enough to get there (we have a charger at our destination, there so we can arrive there batteries depleted), but then again its another hour pit stop delay driving when driving back too - right now there are only a couple of 50Amp chargers for people to use between Calgary and Hwy 3. And they charge slowly.

...but, the talk about batteries losing only about 10-20% range and thinking that might mean we'd have to drop tens of thousands on new packs to address this, could be offset by the fact that 8 years from now there will be a LOT more Superchargers. If they put a Supercharger in Crowsnest Pass when they start to "open up" Highway 3 (informally, Tesla has said Hwy 3 is high on the list, <5yrs out), then I WILL be able to accept having a 90% pack 5 years out (vs spending up to $20K). It'll mean a 5-10 minute "fill" to get me the distance I need to go skiing, which I do already in my ICE vehicles on the trip. But, if they decide it's best to put the Supercharger in Fernie its little help to Calgarians (and they might as that's the right distance from Lethbridge, which gets theirs in 2016), as if it snows, OR it's below -10C, OR I want to average >110kph including headwind, there's no way I can make it with a pack thats 20% down (say 10 years from now), even from our house which is South of the city. In that case, for us, I'll be jumping on getting the new, better battery pack. I'm S of the city and I'll barely be able to reach Fernie; others who live in Calgary will for sure want the Supercharger to be closer, likely in Crowsnest Pass (something I've spoke to Tesla about - they actually solicit new locations from the owners). They have a sophisticated method for spacing their Superchargers, but in winters here, the distance needs to be considerably shorter; sure we'll reach the next Supercharger using their typical spacing distance, but on cold days, we'll have discharged too low, and then filled too high, shortening battery life.

Also, the 60 to 85, and the 85 to 90 battery improvements came with a bit of additional speed even with the same motors, a bonus. They say that larger batteries can make the car even faster, so there's that too, if this claim is valid and acheivable in the future.

2.8 sec[/I] car and tried to drive it 200,000km over 10 years, there is NOOOO way I will get out of that with only 12K USD extra having been spent, first to either get the car to 700Hp, and second to keep it running reliably there for 10 years. So, for 2.8 sec, it's likely a foreign exotic, (unless it's a modded GT-R, Hellcat, Z06, Viper), so good luck getting any foreign exotic car fixed for anywhere near the shop rate of a Tesla, and let's not forget the wait time for those exotic's parts to come from Europe, etc.

To drive the point home: if we were switching away from high performance EV cars, and high performance ICE cars were the new thing, we'd all be complaining about engine, tranny, addtional brake work, etc, yet the costs of maintenance to both types of cars is probably about the same. So Tesla owners spend less on some types of maintenance, yet more on others, and thats OK to me, to get to drive a 2.8s car. It's likely a wash in the end, but time will tell once the Model S ages.

All costs in, 10 year annualized costs, it has to be one of the best 2.8 sec cars, bang for the buck cars ever made. With AWD and autopilot that foreign exotics won't have, and reliability too.

[B]tl/dr: Our cellphone, laptop, etc use has taught us that taking a rechargeable battery from 0-100%-0 charge is bad for it. Ditto a Tesla, so essentially it's usable range isn't what you expect from the Tesla unless you overcharge and also draw too low, which will reduce the long term battery performance more that the 10-20% reduction that is expected at 8 years. So, basically EV rechargeable batteries are consumables, but not till well past 8 years out and this is backed up by the Telsa warranty. Per the VP Tesla, its only 12K USD (all in) if you swap exactly at years 9 to a new pack of same capacity.

ICE cars have about the same maintenance costs but its composed of different types of repairs than an EV; over 10 years, let's say a Tesla's maintenance costs the same or maybe a bit more, factoring in a 12K USD battery purchase (after core exchange), vs owning the two cars I typically compared to, the RS7 or E63. The battery is just a different type of "wear out" item.

BUT, it's a 2.8 sec car, and so, the maintenance cost to drive another similarly performing car (foreign exotic) for 10 years (say 200k), there's NO WAY I am spending less than 12K USD to upgrade it (if needed), plus the much much higher costs to also maintain it for 10 years (save maybe for a Hellcat, GT-R, Z06, Viper, other - the small handful of cars that arguable can best the Tesla for overall average annual costs, - but if you are Canadian and maybe also want an AWD, the list of sub 3s cars get preened even further).

So, summarizing the battery cost issue, wrt the big picture - look at the 10 year costs all in: it's near impossible (save for a few mentioned above that come close) to find another sub 3 sec car that costs as little on an annual basis, including paying for a battery pack in a bunch of years.

[killramos]

I love all this talk about how we cant predict how batteries will react after 10 years of daily use in extreme conditions ( Calgary). Tesla hasn't invented the wheel here, LiIon batteries have been around forever and Tesla's are not really different than anyone elses.

The battery in my Macbook is pooched and i think i can count on 1 hand the number of full discharge cycles it has been through ( desk princess ). Took maybe 2-3 years for it to not hold 50% of it's original charge? After 8 it is more like 10% of original.

You seem to be really grasping at straws to justify your lower battery costs. After 8+ years of use you really think your battery core will be worth 80% of the cost new? I would say that might be true after more like 8 minutes of use.

After 8 years the battery likely junked (chemically) and needs full refurbishment and recycling which likely costs more than making a new battery. So unless Tesla is down for doing this at a major loss ( back to their :nut: business practices) that's not happening.

Not even going to touch the continual touting of the only impressive statistic that the car has, its 0-60 time. If that's all a supercar is to you then :thumbsup: .

Glad you like your new car, you came on here initially with some really great posts and experiences. But you are starting to sound more and more like Supe every day :rofl: .

[Tearin]

A few good points (and I couple I'd like to clarify about the batteries). Yep, need to be a bit more objective in assesing Tesla performance, whether it's the battery, it's handling, other. Re-reading last nights post, I can see that the struggles I had pre-purchase, trying to justify spending 150K on a car, are coming thru a bit too loudly as justifying my purchase to the forum as a "sub 3 sec car". That, the AWD, and the autpilot (for the wife moreso) IS how I justified coughing up the cash in the end, but I have to be careful of course in how it's said (typical of most written communication, even moreso in forums). So those were my real struggles, and I did go thru the rationalization that even if the battery was $20K to buy again, it was worth it, to have the speed performance of the Tesla. I can't change that fact. But, I am not a Tesla fanboy, I am a peformance car fanboy: I've got the modded 944T track car, a turboed Miata for autox, etc (again, not bragging, I've had those cars for many years, bought them used, and I chose those more affordable cars because of the bang for the buck performance they delivered, back in the day...same for the Tesla today, just that the dollar amounts to play with are a bit higher, later in ones career :D ). And I do not think the Tesla is a Supercar, but it has some aspects of a Supercar, just like it has some aspects of an RS7/E63, etc. Given unlimited means, the garage would be full of other, closer to true Supercar cars, but there might still be an Model X even if theres no Model S in the stable. Having a 3.2sec SUV with gullwing doors could be argued that its kindof the Super"SUV" now. So I'm not a Tesla fanboy: if some other billionaire comes along and decides to try to change the world and gives us a different 700Hp car for even less money, I'm in. And I'll offer up that the GT-R was a car I had always wanted but never pulled the trigger on in the past, and also that I did almost buy an RS7 instead of the Tesla (wife said next car must be a Sedan, so it was a list of fewer than 10 cars with the Hp, AWD, and autopilot type features what were on the "want" list).

Do I think the Tesla is a Supercar...not in a foreign exotic kindof way. It gets attention, but not like a Lambo, Ferrari, Aston, even Maserati, etc would, here in Canada. To me, it only has the straight line speed up to say 100mph of a Supercar. Heck, is a 911T even seen as exotic here in Calgary. Yet I'll take its brakes, handling, looks, etc every day of the week over a Tesla.

In street driving, the most accessible part of a Supercar, is getting first across the intersection, and also having great passing power. Each and every day on the commute I can push the limits of 0-60 and passing power, but not the limits of cornering and braking that say a 911T would have - that would border on dangerous and irresponsible...so I get to experience one of the most accessible aspects of Supercar ownership, even on my daily commute, in the Tesla. I almost never get to push the 944T (a garage queen now that Race City is gone), and the Miata goes out on sunny days for Mountain trips with the roof down, but even it never gets pushed except acceleration wise, as it's been a few years since I autox'ed. So, even if I had a true Supercar, I would rarely if ever get to experience the cornering and braking of it on the road, so those aspects of Supercar ownership, abeit real, go unreailzed for most Supercar owners, unless you take the car to the track. And when/if we get a track back, it won't be the Tesla that spends very much time there. But for street Supercar like realized performance, the Tesla is pretty cool (post Ludicrous of course, I won't start in on that SNAFU again). Any +300rwhp car can shame the Insane mode past 30mph (and there are many many cars that meet that criteria available for a LOT less money, new and used), but that will soon get "fixed".

Next, do I miss the exhaust note/growl that an Italian or other Supercar produces, absolutely, (see "Noise" posts above - so this aspect is also missing with the "stealth car"). And of course, no, it doesn't have the looks/cache/rarity of a Supercar, which if I was driving a foriegn exotic, I would also get every day (tho the Tesla does get quite a few thumbs up each day, its not a Lambo). Having said that, it's got some pretty damn nice 21" rims, up there with Supercars imo.

For 25 years I've liked "sleeper" cars...the 944T and the Turboed Miata are great examples. Cars that can perform much higher than their looks suggest, and the Tesla fits the bill for me there too (well maybe not to the average beyond'er, who knows what a P85D is, just the average Canadian). It's all relative, and so, I should step back and say I definately don't think its a Supercar, which I'll also offer, I'll never own, due it it not being practical enough to justify the expense. Changing gears a bit back to the battery, I think its just that, in the past, I have had no problem rationalizing spending well over 10% (the Tesla battery cost) on past cars costs modding and maintaining them, so having to put in a battery pack wasn't something I struggled with...but, spending the up front dollars was, and I guess I've rationalized that a bit to hard in my posts.

I also have changed the Li-Ion battery in cell phones, ski boots (cause I didn't store them properly at 50%), other stuff, and soon my 2008 MacAir might need them (luckily I'm between 60% and 70% now, keep it plugged in almost always, so it has less cycles than most - you must get heavy usage out of your MacBook), hence why I alluded to the fact that we all are familiar with battery degradation and need to view them as consumbles. Ten years of battery cycling is unrealistic for those types of batteries, and we all have experienced that.

But the clarifier I want to make: this begs the question, WHY is Tesla offering an 8 year warranty - some say it's to placate any concerns over battery life, but I don't think that's why they did it - maybe it was because hot swapping batteries (when they were working that), kindof meant you had an unlimited warranty by default, if you could always get a "new" battery pack from them every few days...I think they did it cause its safe for them to do so financially. As a Mec E who has taken a course in planned obsolence (no flames pls - I did it cause I wanted to work in the auto industry and felt it would help), to me, it isn't rational to offer the warranty at 8 years unless almost every battery can reach that point. And there are a few high mileage high cycle Model S Tesla owners who know a lot more about batteries than I do, and they are tracking their battery range degradation, and it looks like we will be down only 10-20% at 8 years unless we realy abuse the pack. More on that later.

I also can't speak for the business model that Tesla has, and if it is appropriate, but note that they said they will swap out to new batteries for 12K USD, which means on a $45K battery pack, we are somehow getting 73% on core exchange. Again, note all the caveats I had put in as to whether they will deliver on that promise, whether its realistic, etc, and note that based on the data points thus far, 80% trade in IS happening even on higher mileage packs (but none are 8 years old yet). They are building the world's largest factory, so economies of scale should drop battery prices, and I do think 30% is doable...Xtrema suggested 30% by 2017, and 30% by 2020, and maybe Tesla is claiming this very nice cost reduction (didn't look it up myself), but time will tell.

Wrt core exchange value being higher than you'd expect...yes, it seems at 8 years out it would be impossible to give 73% trade in on the old battery. Now, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but I think I recall reading that it's because at least half the cells in the Tesla live a "cushy life" and might not have any degradation even at 8 years, and that only a portion will actually have to be changed out. To the layman (me), then it's the charging and discharge routines that they use, and it seems like the top 20% of charge and the bottom 20% of discharge are borne by the same sacrificial cells, and that most of the cells are treated "poshly" and stay very healthy. Again, don't quote the numbers, just that directionally this is the concept that allows them to do this. All the batteries I guess are not used up "in parallel", and there might be a paralell series thing going on in in there. I am sure this has been answered by Telsa already, and I think it's why they can give more than expected on core exchange. Are they losing money doing it, dunno, again, there are battery guys who know a lot more what a xyz sized kWh pack should cost today, and 5 years from now in 2020.

Wrt not knowing how exterme weather affects the batteries, directionally, of course we know it does, Tesla knows it does, and there are lots of calculators out there, but they are only directional at best. The tools don't allow me to calculate 2" of snow vs 4" of light powder, vs gravel, rain, etc, and get a tire "rolling resistance" guesstimate to input into the model...further, they are hard pressed to imagine the winds we see on Hyw 22 driving to Fernie and I have to put in a guesstimate of what I think the average wind will be when I enter my driving speed, and recognize it never hits the car head on, esp on 22...so, yes, they do have some pretty accurate data backed up by real world results on Model S battery performance at temps down to -20C, etc but that's just one variable. So sure, in isolation you can take a typical Li-Ion cell and say, yes at -20C it delivers x% of its +20C Amp-hours, BUT, lets say you wrap a heater around those batteries and use the batteries themselves to heat the other batteries so that all the batteries can deliver more power, then whisk them all along 5" off the ground at 30mph, no 50mph, wait this trip its 70mph, etc (yes the floorpan is sealed, but there still is some convective cooling of the area). There a lot of variables, and it has taken end users time to figure out the Amp-hours each cell can deliver - and I am appreciative of the work they have done. I am sure enginers at Tesla can answer these questions better, but Tesla owners are trying to figure this out based on real world experiences. It looks like a 40% range loss is typical at really cold temps, but none of the "volunteers" who post these calculators with range claims can be 100% sure of their numbers, as there are too many variables. So it comes with caveats to the end users that "ymmv". And for the trips I want to take in the winter, ymmv isn't somthing the engineer in me likes to hear. So directionally, cold is bad for batteries, but trying to figure out if you can go 300km, or only 280km is really hard to do if you don't know whether it's going to snow 1" or 4" on your Friday night drive, and also trying to predict what Sundays drive back might be like, and what the actual frontal average wind might be on Friday and again on Sunday, so you can add that to your driving speed in the calculator too, all while trying to hit the sensitivity required to answer if you have 300km or 280 km of range (like 93% accuracy required - yet missing the mark means a tow, or having to charge for an hour at a 50Amp charger). So, a lot of it is a guesstimate, which Canadian EV owners know all too well... ...so there is a lot of talk about range, esp in Northern climates. Once there is more infrastructure to support EVs, this will become a lot more moot, but it will never go away.

Now, geez, you've made me need to go and figure out if Supe is a Tesla fanboy, justifies his puchases too hard, is too longwinded (which I can be), etc. I think maybe I know the name from my lurking for years on Beyond, but given that I've only really been back on Beyond for a couple of weeks, I don't know whose who in the zoo, [been many many years since I stumbled across the forum, back when I was trying to mod my 944T and was basing it partially off of Rage's experences of long ago].

[killramos]

Originally posted by Tearin


Now, geez, you've made me need to go and figure out if Supe is a Tesla fanboy, justifies his puchases too hard, is too longwinded (which I can be), etc.

I'll save you the trouble, he's a fanboy :rofl: .

[rage2]

Originally posted by Tearin
But the clarifier I want to make: this begs the question, WHY is Tesla offering an 8 year warranty
This one is simple. It's because it's industry standard. Toyota is an 8 year as well.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Tearin
Having said all that, the prices quoted in the post above are a bit high. At end of year 8, Tesla's VP has stated they will swap out an 85kW pack to a new one for 12K USD (the question is whether, in 2020 when the first ones come out of warranty, will this price be achievable). They say their new Gigafactory will drop the battery/cell prices 30%, so I am sure that is part of it.

That's $12K USD price has been thrown around a lot. It originates from the $12K next battery deal with the original Roadster which has since been pulled.

There is no where concrete saying that today I can buy 85kwh battery from Tesla for $12K. If I can, I would buy tons.

If Tesla home battery price is any clue, 10kwh goes for $3500. 85kwh should be 8.5x of that, so $28000 each in 2016. It may be a while before it hits $12K unless somebody is able to commercialize all the new battery techs from the labs.

It's not impossible, after all we went from 1.6TB SSD, to 16TB, to potential 128TB in just 7 short years.

TLDR, I don't think the $12K is written in stone. But failed battery doesn't seem to stop people buying Prius either.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by killramos


I'll save you the trouble, he's a fanboy :rofl: .

I see now. Just finished reading the Tesla Investing Megathread.

Yes, a lot of what I've said was previously said there, possibly because some facts are facts (they claimed the 12K USD battery price, they are seeing batteries in Roadsters last to 8 years, etc), it is a great 0-60 vehicle, etc. Some good info, some not so good, probably like this thread too.

But in this thread about the P85D performance, I also offered up that that the 0-60 is just about all the Tesla does great on the street, but I also countered, that this is about all we really do get to use from any Supercars performance, on the street (and I offer this up with the background indicating that I do have "some" slow and high speed autox and track experience).

It seems like other cars got mentioned (I saw M5 specifically) into the discussion in the other thread about investing, and maybe those types of driving discussion belong in a "driving perspective" thread, and this one should steer clear of stuff that isn't about tesla driving performance.

So, on regular day to day driving of the Tesla, at way less than its max capability, so far, to me the Tesla handles and brakes like a 5000# low CoG AWD car should (much better than the SUV). I've driven better handling 4000# sedans than the Tesla, but again, I rarely get to push it on the street to use that performance.

The steering feel and feedback, suspension, etc is nice in day to day driving. I find some German cars to be a bit off in those respects, ditto Japanese, yet I find other offerings from the same manufacturer to mesh nicely with what "I" look for wrt sensory feedback from the car. I haven't driven too many foreign exotics, so I won't comment on those.

Wrt the other thread, I'm going to steer clear (pun intended). I don't know enough, nor do I care to, about where battery tech is going, about the gigaplant, Tesla, etc - I glean info as it crosses my path or when it might affects the performance of the car I own. Again, I might just as easily have wound up with the RS7 as the P85D, but right when I was looking for a new car in early October, the P85D was announced, and it scored the highest on the must/want matrix that the wife and I had (again, lucky her, married to a risk engineer - a decision matrix, lol).

But, I do have an MBA with 6 Finance courses/options and a full term project which I chose to do in Behavioural Investing (back in the 90's! long before it ws a popular concept), and for sure, many people ARE riding the 'irrational exhuberiance" wave of Tesla and some are even doing it knowingly (as stated in the other thread, think Enron, also, Nortel, Bre-X, Ballard, you name it, high P/E's - tho I'm not saying that Tesla is corrupt tho like two of those companies were). I don't nor would I invest in them as I tend to be more of a fundamentalist, and/or value investor, with my "stock" investments. But I will offer up that because of that, I also chose to miss the huge Bre-X and Nortel rollercoasters ride up too.

Investing in an ultra high P/E growth stock like those companies were, is a market timing game imo (and have fun with that), probably done with a volatile stock too by the "players", and it looks more like "gambling" than investing, to me. Sure for diversification, I'll put my money into maybe some less volatile growth stocks in addition to value stocks, etc., but not Tesla.

And yes, someone will point out in a post that their volatile "growth" stock went up 20% in response to someone else who said it had just dropped 10%, and both might actually think this has to do with the fundamantals of Tesla itself, which it "probably" doesn't...

...to me, I'd focus on what Tesla is or is not doing better than its competitors leading to the market's money flowing towards them. Relative to others, are they better innovators, filling a demand, pushing economies of scale, spearheading infrastructure change, marketing well, riding a wave, who knows....a bit of all of it I'm sure, but what's really dominating their growth...I can't help but think that as soon as the main stream media starts to get involved, and companies start to engage them (or vice versa), this necessary evil occurs/exists (companies need exposure to attract money, and so they need to play the game, and some companies do it better than others).

I'm not saying this is another overhyped Ballard (a company with some value, but not worth what they had). Is Tesla worth investing in, will Tesla go bankrupt, I'll never comment strongly on that as I believe that my answers should come from a thorough understanding of the situation before offering an opinion, and even then, I think the answer will be highly unreliable, as are most people's guesses. There's the engineers answer. If you hold my feet to the fire and make me take a stance, based on the info I know today, I think I'm OK owning a Tesla till at least the end of its 8 year warranty period (might buy the extended IF things are looking bad wrt its reliability at end of year 4), but I won't give them any money other that the small profit they might have make off of me in exchange for me getting to drive the P85D they desgned and manufactured. There are other places for me to put my money, and yes, I might wind up with less money in the end because of it. Or maybe I'll start a business and invest in myself and see if I can control the growth of my money even better than giving it to Elon and other stockholders... ;)

So, for those reasons, I think I'll stay out of the other thread, and focus on this one, where I can be a car guy pushing the limits of the "latest shiny bobble" that has a lot of the car worlds (and even outside the car world) focus on it right now, the P85D.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by rage2

This one is simple. It's because it's industry standard. Toyota is an 8 year as well.

If this is the main reason, they better make sure we stop charging to 100% and dropping to 1% before charging, or they will see more warranty claims than they hoped for.

I, thinking like an engineer, had guessed it was cause they know they can statistically reach 8 years.

But, maybe it's cause they copied the other companies warranty, but and I might be naive, but SOMEONE had to think 8 years was doable, I can't believe originaly Toyota did it to attact buyers...thats a huge risk...so the argument I'm making is that they can hit 8 years reliably, regardless of how they chose the 8 year timeframe. To continue my argument, if Toyota thought they can do 8 years, and offered it, and Tesla looked and said our battery tech is as good, and our Roadster data says we hit it too, then 8 years is the timeframe.

The reason I pointed out the 8 year warranty was to argue that these thing will almost certainly last that long, and to counter-argue that just because my or someone else's Mac's battery may be shot at 8 or 10 years, doesn't mean the a Toyota's or a Tesla's will be...I still think the fact they have an 8 year warranty is strong evidence that we will still have good range at 8 years and 200k. And Tesla's expereience and almost all early adopter Model S drivers exeriences are starting to prove this out... if wrong, it was a costly decision on Tesla's part. These batteries will hit 8 years for almost all Tesla users.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Xtrema
But failed battery doesn't seem to stop people buying Prius either.
Not sure if this service is available in Canada yet, but $800 for a Prius reconditioned battery installed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2014/04/09/replacing-a-dead-prius-hybrid-battery-doesnt-have-to-cost-thousands-of-dollars/

Was researching this for the MIL's car. If Tesla can hit critical mass like the Prius, I have no doubt that battery replacement prices won't be an issue in the future.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by Xtrema


That's $12K USD price has been thrown around a lot. It originates from the $12K next battery deal with the original Roadster which has since been pulled.

There is no where concrete saying that today I can buy 85kwh battery from Tesla for $12K. If I can, I would buy tons.

<edit>

TLDR, I don't think the $12K is written in stone. <edit>

I agree, I wish it was in stone, but the VP at Tesla did reaffirm that Roadster 12K number for Model S owners, a year or so after the Model S came out, and it is all over the internet now, and I'm pretty sure I recall it's in writing in an unofficial form from him, but MAYBE it could be argued he didn't act as a rep of the company when he said it. <found it: George Blankenship, Tesla Vice President of Worldwide Sales and Ownership Experience, wrote on the company blog with the numbers and details, 8K, 10K and 12K for a 40kW, 60, and 85...but it was in Nov 2012, and many in the media discredited the claim that they could do the 12K price for an 85kW. It was also good ANYTIME for that price, after the original 8 year warranty...but note that my actual paperwork from Tesla of course doesn't refer to any of these costs>

Having said that, I think they may take a loss to do the 12K, which is why its not like you or I could arbitrage this and get our hands on 7000+ cells and sell them at their actual market rate...the 12K may not be based on ecomonics, and may just be the offer to current Tesla owners only. Newly produced cells like those in the Powerwall are priced well it appears (I'm sure you know more than I do on that front), and who knows what their swap price will be years out...Even assuming a 50% trade in, and allowing for the first 30% reduction in Giga factory battery price by 2020 (when the first Tesla S reaches 8 yrs) then its 45K * .7 = 31.5K to buy and I get 50% of that back, so still under 20K CDN...I just don't support at all when some folks suggest that the trade needs to be near zero...there isn't evidence to that from Tesla, and maybe its artificial goodwill, and those in the know about batteries say it should be zero, but for some reason, thus far, it isn't.

And for the guys who did the 60 to 85kW upgrade, they did pay just a bit over the 12K number, and got the better cells too. If I again "assume" they give 80% on trade in, then it is actaully less than 12K to go from a three year old 85 to a 90 today and it seems some guys with deep pockets are going to do that with they do their Ludicrous upgrade...so we'll know soon enough.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by Xtrema


<edit> But failed battery doesn't seem to stop people buying Prius either.

I deleted and missed this point the first time, till I saw Rage's reply. Yep, I'm OK wth a "quasi predictable" battery failure rate too and will build the cost of this into my overall purchase decision, maybe a couple of years earlier than I had hoped, who know (but again, some of the battery swap will be offset by not having the higher rate and costs of engine and tranny failures common to other high Hp cars).

So, Prius is seeing high failure rates eh, even with 8 year warranty...hmm, most of my arguments would be off then.

If so, maybe I will need a battery at or before 8 years. Go Tesla, go Gigafactory, improve the tech, and reduce the cost, cause I want a 110kW pack in 5 years, that'll last 10 more years, and costs less than an 85 does today.

Just did a bit of research into the Prius battery life. Seems reasonable to expect 240,000km if treated well, but yes, there isn't much residual value at that point in time. Hope Tesla can do better with their battery tech, charging, etc than the older Priuses are doing.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Tearin


I deleted and missed this point the first time, till I saw Rage's reply. So Prius is seeng high failure rates eh, even with 8 year warranty...hmm, most of my arguments are off then.

[looks like I have a bit of Pruis battery failure rate research to do now, d'oh]

Don't worry about it, Prius uses ancient NiMH cells. The stuff you found in those giant Motorla cell phones in the 90s. Failure is expected. They are not using Li-Ion until this year when 3rd gen is released.

Li-Ion has much better history than NiMH.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Don't worry about it, Prius uses ancient NiMH cells. The stuff you found in those giant Motorla cell phones in the 90s. Failure is expected. They are not using Li-Ion until this year when 3rd gen is released.

Li-Ion has much better history than NiMH.

I did see posts saying the failure rate was dropping and they were getting slightly better in Pruis Gen II (cause they also have less miles so on my quick inspection, it was harder to distill as much info out of their smaller sample size wrt failure rates), but I didn't notice it (and probably should have) that most of what I read was probably about the NiMH ones and not Li-Ion...had me scared there for a bit that a lot of the info I read lurking in the Tesla forums might be overly optimistic....even info from the Tesla pessimists does't sound as bad as it does in the Prius forums (1% failure rate not reaching the 175k miles mark, etc)... ...it didn't make sense, there isn't a lot of naysayers in the Tesla forums saying PowerWalls and Model S's wont actually be able to do x cycles and y miles, so I was a bit concerned that I needed to dig into this a bit deeper...thanks for clearing that up.

Now I've got to find some dirt or gravel roads to test out the integration of the two motors and the AWD and the TC and post about that now, instead of waiting till winter to also be able to do it safely and without burning up rubber.

[B18C]

Pretty sure the tesla battery warranty doesn't cover battery degradation. It just covers failure from pretty much any reason.

That said battery degradation really isn't a big deal to me. At first I was pretty aware of it and only charge the battery to about 70% every night and made sure my car was plugged in every night because "a plugged in tesla is a happy tesla" - or however that saying goes.

With the news of the 90kwh battery available for swapping and teslas commitment to continue allowing owners to upgrade batteries this is no longer a concern for me. I charge my car to 90% every night even though it's totally overkill and if I forget to plug it in (which does happen even though it's literally right beside my car) I don't worry about it.

The range of the tesla is way more than I need on a daily basis and likely when I decide to upgrade my battery pack it will almost certainly be because I want to not because I have to. I haven't seen any owner of signature series Model S complain about significant loss of range to the point where it's become a huge issue. This leads me to believe that it probably won't be a big issue.

Again, my itch to have the latest and greatest will likely be the reason I replace the battery rather than any practical reason.

This is why I'm one of the first on the list at Vancouver's service centre to get the Ludacrious upgrade (to my wife's ultimate frustration). I highly doubt I'll be able to tell the difference between 3.1 and 2.8 seconds but I'm still getting it because I want it.

The growl on a big engine? That is one thing I don't miss at all. I find the silent power intoxicating. Sometimes I'll punch the accelerator just to be amazed and how quiet the car pulls.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by B18C
Pretty sure the tesla battery warranty doesn't cover battery degradation. It just covers failure from pretty much any reason.



I'm still hoping (naively maybe) that outside of the warranty period, after 8 years, if let's say the pack is at 70 or even 80% range, I would be able to swap to another 85 for at or near 12K USD.

Of course I'd put in the biggest available battery that fits a P85D at that time and gladly pay the upcharge, but I am hoping that the core trade-in would be LEAST 50% of the new cost for an 85kW pack. If we wanted to do the 85 to 90 swap now (i.e.: with the Ludicrous), it sure appears based on history, we would actually get at least 80% on our cores, tho some are arguing it should be 90%. Once a few do it, I'd be curious to see what the actual cost is, and then I could decide if it's worth it to me. I've asked Van too about it, but as we know, there's no firm pricing details yet in the USA (5K+ labour?), let alone Canada, for either Ludicrous, or the battery upgrade (which of course isn't needed, save for maybe that last .1 sec).

BTW, I have spoken to Van, they have quite a few on the waitlist for Ludicrous in Calgary. I suggested they load up the contactors and fuses, and drive them out and set up a shop for a month with a couple of Rangers, and do it here, vs having each of us pay another $800 or so to flatbed it there. I mentioned (politely) that the service center and store were supposed to be open in July, so we shouldn't have to still be relying on Rangers, and for major work, 2 flatbed trips, and that this should be moot by now, and they did say they considering it and other options (again, maybe I'm naive, but the discussion was that given that there are so many of us that want it here (highest per capita apparently) they might just do it here). The last time the Ranger was at my house, he pointed out that the issue is that most hoists can't be used to work on the Tesla batteries as they have to be wider than normal (I had offered to use mine for the swap, but it is about 6" narrower than the wheelbase on each side, so the battery can't be dropped using my style of hoist. They probably need a 4 post with butterfly arms that come in from the outside...but even with that, there one more problem (I can see that will make this harder for them to do here: it's not like an engine hoist can be used to lower the battery pack, I guess they must have a special jack at the service centers to do that (dunno, never googled battery hot swapping when it was announced, and it dies almost as fast as it came out). So I guess it's not as simple as renting a bay with a hoist here in town for a month to do us all, cause of the specialized jacks that may be needed. Dunno. Worst case, I think they should coordinate among us to maybe share shipping of of 2, 4, 6, or even 8 cars a a time (the maximum at one time that they can handle in their shop for the upgrade). It would be nice to get this before October, but I doubt we will see it before snow is on the ground...

[Tearin]

Originally posted by B18C

The growl on a big engine? That is one thing I don't miss at all. I find the silent power intoxicating. Sometimes I'll punch the accelerator just to be amazed and how quiet the car pulls.

It's a new sensation (or lack thereof) for sure, but it's the one thing I miss the most: flying thru the gears, hearing the exhaust, the blowoff, etc.

What I don't miss is stopping for gas, esp when it gets cold. But, the really weird part is every time I pass by a station I know has 94 octane, I instinctively look down to "check my gas gauge" :facepalm: (my other cars are tuned to need 94 or higher). So, I know where those stations are, and I can't drive by one in the Tesla without checking if a needs a fill. Maybe that's why buying an EV and relying on a limited charging infrastructure didn't scare me off much, as I'm already used to having WAAYYY fewer gas stations that have 94 (not like I can't put in 91 in a pinch and not drive @ WOT till I get to a 94 station).
[Rhetorical q: anyone know why we don't have Chevron in Alberta - I'm sure I can find the answer in a thread out there "somewhere" ;) . Thankfully it seem at least one of the Alberta refineries are continuing to make 94 for us.]

[killramos]

You know the easy way to settle this once and for all would be call tesla service and ask them to quote you on a 90kW upgrade from your 85 w/ xxx km on the current trade in.

That's what I would do if I wanted to know how much something would cost for any other car lol.

As a current owner I would hope they would give you the time of day?

:dunno:

[Tearin]

Originally posted by killramos
You know the easy way to settle this once and for all would be call tesla service and ask them to quote you on a 90kW upgrade from your 85 w/ xxx km on the current trade in.

That's what I would do if I wanted to know how much something would cost for any other car lol.

As a current owner I would hope they would give you the time of day?

:dunno:

Yep, been there done that (when initially getting in the queue for Ludicrous).

We do have a good idea (but not 100% confirmed) of the retail cost (posted above - guessing it's 11.6K USD), but not if there will be any discount for current owners. I think they are gauging interest before they announce "upgrade" pricing.

Best they will say is that it should/could be the 80% core trade-in (minimum). But Van wants to see what happens in the US, and whether there is any deal for us 85kW owners who might have bought 6 months before the new batteries came out (and maybe we should be "s-o-l"). We are supposedly getting the Ludicrous at half price, so MAYBE they are waiting to gauge the interest on the 90's before they announce upgrade pricing. But it can't be worse than the cost of a new 90kW - 80% of the cost of a new 85. I just don't think they can (or are) offer a 90 cell for sale yet, so they don't have pricing on it, but prorated up from an 85, retail should be about 47.5K - core. But maybe the changes required were more expensive than simple math like that, and it could be more money, not sure.

In all three convos I've had since it was announced, there are being very tight lipped "officially", and just providing the "company line". So we don't know either the CDN cost of the Ludicrous (exch rate and labour unknown), nor the cost to upgrade to a 90, if it's going to be less than retail...maybe they don't want to overpromise and underdeliver again and are waiting till they are actually ready to start doing the battery swap work, before announcing prices. But, then why tell us Ludicrous was half price, already....maybe cause they knew they had to clean up the mess around saying the speed increase would be free (software only), but they never said we would get a 90kW pack for free, so I'm assuming they don't feel as "obligated" (read: damage control) to announce a rebate for P85D guys, when they announced the new P90D. I don't expect to get something for free on a battery upgrade (vs the Ludicrous which was supposed to be free), BUUTT, maybe they will raise the trade in from 80% to 90% for healthy batteries that are under a year old. That is the type of announcement I am waiting to hear. So, if there is a "rebate", I'm sure we will get that pricing just before they are ready to start offering it. I hope it's 90% trade in for newer packs, as I won't do it for the retail to 80% retail price...to me it's not worth it yet for only 6% more range. I need like 20% more range for the trips I take, ("others"mmv). But if the core is 90%, hmmm....that might be only 7.5K USD...really tho, I need at least a 100kW pack, and 105kW would be ideal, (which is a few years off).

But really, they have no reason to do an 85kW to 90kW swap this year, any way other than retail on 90 minus 80% retail on the 85 exchanged, and no current owner should expect any different - anything they do different will be generous and will likely be based on allowing >80% trade in value on say the <1yr old 85kW packs. If they don't and it's retail - 80% retail, then the guesstimated calcs from a few posts above suggest its $11.6K USD for the upgrade.

So I think, basically, we have to wait till the 90kW cells are even available to buy from the service centers...We can argue that they should know the price already, but it seems the service centers still do not...guess in the last two weeks no P90D owner has accidentally damaged his battery pack in a way that isn't covered by its warranty, and hence need to buy a new one at retail. :rolleyes:

[B18C]

Originally posted by killramos
You know the easy way to settle this once and for all would be call tesla service and ask them to quote you on a 90kW upgrade from your 85 w/ xxx km on the current trade in.

That's what I would do if I wanted to know how much something would cost for any other car lol.

As a current owner I would hope they would give you the time of day?

:dunno:

That's where Tesla is failing IMO. Their communication is terrible. They announce Ludacrious and the battery upgrade, we get all excited and then don't hear anything two months later (must be close to that now).

First the ridiculous wait for "autopilot " and now this. Pretty sure the upgrade is nowhere near ready for prime time. My guess is that they announced it prematurely to pump up excitement. Their orders probably took a dip as people wait to see what the Model X is about.

[killramos]

Ok well ludicrous and other new vapour features aside I take it from your posts that currently there is no way to upgrade to the 90kW battery from the 85? Like if you drove your car into a tesla service bay today gave them your unlimited limit Amex and said change the battery to a 90kW they would tell you to pound sand?

I assume service centres will be able to quote a replacement for your 85 kW pack? It probably doesn't cost any less than the 90 as its a pretty incremental change. Or is that even not really a thing?

Just seems like some horrible customer service for such an expensive vehicle. that kind of issue would make me very worried about if there was something actually wrong with mine. If they can't quote you on a battery replacement, a real quote ( legal contract) not media or forum bluster, how can you expect them to be able to repair one :dunno:

[01RedDX]

.

[killramos]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Or maybe they are waiting for the gigafactory to come online, because the entire point of it is to vastly improve the supply and availability (and therefore costs) of new and replacement battery packs? :dunno: As an owner, why would I want to know the current price for something that is expected to last 8+ years, especially knowing that the company is working specifically to reduce those costs in the near future?

That factory isn't even close to online and the drop in costs is complete speculation (I am sure it will work great and lower costs but let's not count chickens before they hatch, which I know is teslas style) , I'm really just trying to get to the bottom of what tesla will give you for your current battery after it has been used even for a year or a few months. A gigafactory won't affect that value unless somehow a huge portion of that assembly line is dedicated to battery refurbishment...

Im just trying to separate facts from speculation and if I had a tesla with my own vin and mileage to call in with is make the call right now to ask for the quote to satisfy my curiosity. Which is why I asked the question to the 2 above posters who actually own the things.

If anyone wants me to get a quote for a repair cost on my bmw I would be happy to oblige. But I know for a fact the dealer isn't going to be buying any of my old parts no matter how new or unused to offset my costs. Same reason I have a bmw open differential sitting in my garage.

[01RedDX]

.

[killramos]

"Seething hate"

:rofl:

Anyone who is reasonable skeptical about a company who's claims proved time and time again to be full of shit is now considered hateful. Glwt.

[01RedDX]

.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by killramos
&quot;Seething hate&quot;

:rofl:

Anyone who is reasonable skeptical about a company who's claims proved time and time again to be full of shit is now considered hateful. Glwt.


Share this list you speak of.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by killramos
Ok well ludicrous and other new vapour features aside I take it from your posts that currently there is no way to upgrade to the 90kW battery from the 85? Like if you drove your car into a tesla service bay today gave them your unlimited limit Amex and said change the battery to a 90kW they would tell you to pound sand?

I assume service centres will be able to quote a replacement for your 85 kW pack? It probably doesn't cost any less than the 90 as its a pretty incremental change. Or is that even not really a thing?

Just seems like some horrible customer service for such an expensive vehicle. that kind of issue would make me very worried about if there was something actually wrong with mine. If they can't quote you on a battery replacement, a real quote ( legal contract) not media or forum bluster, how can you expect them to be able to repair one :dunno:

Yep, I bet it'll be a few more weeks before anyone can "buy" a 90kW pack. I'm sure they all are (and should be) going into the current P90D cars that have been ordered. Again, as I said before, until someone wrecks their 85 or 90 pack (in the last two weeks since the 90 packs rolled off the line) and hence has a VALID, PRIORITY reason to get a 90kW pack now then I doubt we will find out the price from HQ. Just about any other reason to replace a pack for breakage is probably covered by warranty, and I'm sure Tesla can manage that internal accounting behind the scenes, once the prices get set in the future, as the local stores do not know the price (last I spoke to them). So, they're 2 weeks into deliveries of P90Ds and as of yet they don't NEED to know the price, but yes, maybe they SHOULD. I am sure as soon as the first P90D customer asks to actually get a replacement pack that they wrecked themsleves (perhaps in an accident) then for sure they will have a price very fast.

But, it seems you are dismissing something a bit too strongly from a few of the prior posts. WE DO know the price to swap out an 85 for an 85, and even a 60 for an 85. Again, it seems that folks, even with two year old pack,s could walk into Tesla, and do an 85 to 85 for 45K USD - 0.8 * 45K (as the core is 80% at that age/condition). This is fact recently. It isn't something we need to see in a contract to know it has been true, and it should still hold true, and timw when tel when more people actually do swaps...the deep pocketed P85D owners proabably puttin in 90kW a pack in a month or two (guessing). Batteries less than two years old all seem to be getting 80%. I don't disagree this trade in value should be more transparent, and I'd like to see the 80%/60%/40% core credit table for say 2yr/4yr/6yrs out and/or 40km/80km/120km usage, provided its still a heathy battery - don't quote those values of course, just throwing out numbers. If it exists, I'm sure if I asked Vancouver for it, I might get it, if they are allowed by HQ to give it out, as they might not if its only a guideline vs a firm rule - maybe they can't because core credit is is highly dependant on actual condition regardless of years or km driven, and HQ could just as easily say, hey, core costs are not definitive, let us put yours on the "test bench" in Van, and we'll let you know the trade-in value then. if I were running it, and it was a small business, for sure my trade in credit that I offered would only be based on actual measured condition via full load testing. But this is a car company, they're not small, and so things could be done differently than that. I think there will be enough 85kW pack owners that will consider going to 90, that we will know those answers soon enough...but yes, it will still be firstly be known to the masees through forum banter.

So let's assume we do know the 85/85 swap costs, even if none of us was silly enough to actually ask for a quote to change out our perfectly good batteries with the same sized pack....then the next issue is when upgrading to the 90kW cells, some owners feel the historically proven 80% trade-in is too low, and want 90% if the cells are virtualy knew. Is this unrealistic to expect, maybe, but again, the sentiment is out there. That is why there are two unknowns from going from an 85 to a 90kW pack today. The precise cost of the 90 is unknown, and owners want to hear there is better than 80% trade in on our new packs (whether that's doable or not remains to be seen). I expect you picked that up from the posts earlier, but given the still unknowns, it then makes it much harder to "put it in writing". Sure, telling us the price of a 90kW pack should be easy, and I agree I should be able to get that price, but I can't yet (last time I asked). BUT, its a big big business decision that could set precedents for quite a while to say that they will offer us 90% trade on < 1yr old virstually new batteries when upgrading to a bigger capacity pack. The thing is, they know exactly what their exposure is to offer every P85D owner on the planet the Ludicrous at half price, but, and again, it a big BUT, saying that we can upgrade <1yr old 85's and get 90% trade-in will be a precedent that others will want then the 90 gets replaced by a 100, then 110, etc. This is a much bigger decision with a potentially much larger scope and precedent. Reversing a decsion like that for people looking to go from 90 to 100 to 110, etc in the future won't be taken well by owners at the time. It's very hard to claw back past precendent without p'ing off those owners who won't get it.

Earlier, you queried a bit whether I was a Tesla fanboy, and I said nope, I'm just a fanboy of performance cars....I'll tout the car's strengths, and it's weaknesses.

So, I also agree Tesla doesn't communicate well, esp on on a personal level, but I'm not going to get into that in a public forum as it's been an ongoing and yet unresolved issue. Their worse than some customer service, better than others (think telecom or cable, d'oh). Basically I feel like they are growing faster than they know how to manage, and that's about all I'll say on that.

BUT, whether it's true or not, you sound a bit like you have a chip on your shoulder about Tesla, and intentionally or not, you have glazed over that it was mentioned a few times that we DO know that core refunds on good battery packs are 80% of retail right now based on people who have done it in that past, so we know the price for an 85 to 85, or a 60 to 60, 60 to 85, etc. The point is, I don't feel its fair to expect the Service Manager to "put it in writing" for the only thing he actually has prices for, like a 60 to 85, or 85 to 85, when no one is actually asking to do it...and he would know it's bs, cause anyone ACTUALLY considering doing it now would simply wait a month or two and do it with a 90pack! So its hard to get the 85/85 in writing if it's a bogus request. And even if the manager tries, using the data he has today, to put in writing what he thinks the cost for an 85 to 90 swap is, he'd probably be guessing that it's 80% core, and he could be wrong if HQ says, naw, for <1yr old healthy batteries, lets do 90% core. So, it appears HQ is getting to it when they need to: when the batteries ARE ready to go into our EXISTING cars. Heck, upgrades probably haven't happened a lot, so maybe they will change the 80% amount for the core once more people start swapping (ratio goes up?, down?, heck, could be either), but others HAVE gotten this 80% trade in on upgrade.

So, that part was mentioned a few times, albeit in the longish posts up above and on the prior pages, and sure, I wasn't askingTesla for that to be written down in a quote. I was more thinking: hey guys, you told us it was half price for Ludicrous, which I feel is still to much as I thought it would be free, but seeing as you did put the effort into figuring THAT out pretty closely to what it will actually be, why the heck can't you give us the guesstimate of the battery upgrade price too - again, the only reason they might have done the former and not the latter is because they HAD to do the former in order to deliver us more of the 691Hp, "via that supposed free software improvement' - So, I'm OK beating them up for what they did and will do badly, but to me, I only WANT (none of us NEED) to know about the battery upgrade costs, and yes, I think maybe they SHOULD know the answer to how much it will cost, but to be fair, I can also see others businesses not knowing the price of a brand new widget that isn't really for sale separately yet, as it's supplied as part of a larger widget, and no one had broken that widget yet and hence asked for a price to replace it, not by warranty, so they don't know its exact retail price yet, only two weeks after it hit the market, and again, as a subpart.

I COULD force the issue and get an 85 to 85 price in writing, but my Service Manager would know it was a BS request, but yes, he would give it to me as a quote, in writing, but we still both would know it was a BS request. But I would know the exact process to valuate my battery, leading to me knowing MY particular battary exchange value. And if I don't have to et the car to Van to do this, I might, but why ask till after the Van office finds out the 90Kw pack cost. So we both wait till they know the 90KW price from HQ, as I doubt owners want their service centers to look at them like they are a$$e$: as owners we could push HQ to get the exact price for a 90 NOW, perhaps, but we'd be doing it for something that we know is still months off, and they will just reply with: "details will follow as we're still months off". So the incentive to push is cause we WANT to know, but not cause we NEED to know yet.

So, I'll beat them up for what I think they did are are doing bad with the P85D (and I'll tout them for what they did or are doing well).

Plus, the "you bought a '$150K' car" argument can be used the other way too..yes, we bought an expensive car and deserve to be treated with a bit more timely info about costs, but these guys are the other end (and some of this threads lurkers) could be feeling a bit like, guys, you just dropped $150K and you're worried about whether the 90kW battery is 15K USD, 17.5K USD, or 20K USD to upgrade, and are so impatient you have to know before its even available...geez, relax...be happy with the 85 you have, the fact your battery is working, and hey, if you CAN afford to spend that much to get 6% more mileage, then: "don't worry, it'll be in that $15-20K range, and we'll let you exactly know in a few months...would you like to get on the priority list to do it if te price is right, no obligation". But ya, if you can afford to do it, and want to do it, 15K vs 20K is probably not going to change your mind one way or the other, so maybe either plan get the money in a few months to do it, or don't. So, to me that would be their attitude if they truly had "horrible customer service", as it's probably just as easy to look at it that way, and stepping back for a moment, probably some readers of this thread don't really have much sympathy for owners whining about +/- 5K on a new battery. So, I came more to talk about driving experiences, and didn't come here "primarily" to talk about the cost of the car other than wrt it's bang for the buck, esp as it was $$$. I've actually never spent over $23K on any car, all were used (I think I've owned 18?) so I also think that us whining about not being able to know how much it costs to get to our full 691Hp is one of the best definition of "first world problem" that I've ever heard, and that it won't get a lot of sympathy, so "I" will try to stop talking about it now.

Both owners in this thread have now said that Tesla's communication is poor (not like I think there is much better communication from other car companies, but I think Tesla is currently below average, esp as it seems, compared to ther car companies, their announcements seemed more advertising for the market than to potential future buyers, and they sound a lot more like a tech company pumping the investments via premature press releases - something I am going to have to get used to when dealing with them I guess - reminding myself that it's expected, this is Elon, AND this is not a traditional car company).

But, imo, it might be a bit harsh to call it horrible customer service to not give us quotes in writing, on the newest battery widget which just got put in cars a few weeks ago, and no one else really can put the newest battery widget into their old car yet anyways, so its all moot till then as to knowing exactly whether its 15K or 20K...which we wont know imo till all the ordered P90D deliveries are met I'm sure (and now the X vehicles need those 90 packs too - and if I was the owner of the company, I'd want all available 90 packs to go to them too, before 85kW owners - assuming there aren't enough packs to meet all current demand, but that might be a bad assumtion tho). So, current owners take second priority, and that's exactly the way it should be imo. Others are waiting for cars they don't have yet, and we have perfect working 85kW packs so why would a 90kW pack come to us yet. These guys are focused on growing the business, the P90D announcement and its deliveries, and now, the X deliveries. I think once that has passed, and Ludicrous is ready, the 90kW packs and pricing for us will mysteriously come at the exact same time, and we will know if we get 90% (or other) trade-in for our used packs.

BTW, final comment, circling back again: even 80% is well above the other numbers mentioned in earlier posts wrt how much trade in on used batteries we should see, so some probably think that 80% is extremely generous. Dunno, again, maybe 20% of the batteries do the heavy lifting damaging type of work, and the rest are babied, as long as the battery pack stays within 10-80% charge. Might head over to the Tesla forums this week and see if there is any better answers about this and how they can offer such a high trade-in.

So, I'm not going to focus too much anymore on us not knowing the 90kWh battery pack price, 'cause we do at least know the 80% trade-in seems to be the minimum being offered for anyone who had wanted to upgrade in the past...but ya, they have room to improve in lots of areas, but darn it all, they can't be perfect either nor did I expect them to be...they gave us a sub 3 sec sedan for 150K, and I'll be very happy with that and hope for the best > the issue is more that I know and recognize that I am an early adoptor, not of Tesla, but of the P85Dual motor...so as long as it performs in the winter well, then I will be very happy... those two motors and how they integrate are going to get the mother of all tests before I ever take it onto Hyw 22 with it's 80kph crosswinds, 6-12" high drifts, and "1xx" kph passing speeds.
:eek:

[01RedDX]

.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by killramos


Im just trying to separate facts from speculation and if I had a tesla with my own vin and mileage to call in with is make the call right now to ask for the quote to satisfy my curiosity. Which is why I asked the question to the 2 above posters who actually own the things.



Good point killramos, [and heads up 01RedDX, some of us 85kW owners might actually want to know this now, for sure we will want to know when the next cell, hopefully a 100kWh unit comes out, as some of us MAY upgrade long before the 8 years, to get more range (the more I think about it, the more I think I will). So it isn't totally moot. I guarantee there are guys with deep enough pockets that someone will do the 85-90 swap when it comes out.]

So, I'm quoting your comment again killramos, to re-mention something I had offered up in my reply above this one: maybe the 85 pack trade in value is NOT able to be based off of a chart like Costco/CT/Walmart can do with a Lead acid battery warranty given the serial# and manufacture date (i.e:. based only on VIN (mnfctr date) and km) Why can/do they do that, dunno...competition with other battery companies, having much more extensive background of Lead Acid car battery rebuild costs (recover, melt and reuse?)...not sure, again, I'm not a battery guy.

But, as I guessed blindly in the post above, maybe Tesla needs to fully load test each cell "block" set, in Vancouver before confirming they will give the 80% or higher or lower trade-in. And no one can get a 90 yet, so theres no rush to test our batteries now, if thats the case, as it would probably still need to be repeated when the 90kW pack is actually ordered and paid for. Also cause it's a very high cost item, so maybe it can't/shouldn't simply be stated as 80/60/40 at xyz years/km as thats not enough accuracy in trade in costs - tho they seem to have been using a generic and simple number like 80% number in the past.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by killramos



If anyone wants me to get a quote for a repair cost on my bmw I would be happy to oblige. But I know for a fact the dealer isn't going to be buying any of my old parts no matter how new or unused to offset my costs. Same reason I have a bmw open differential sitting in my garage.

Interesting "fact"...this is kinda starting to border on making absolute statements, which are too easy to prove wrong and discredit...so, sure, while it might be right for you, it's not right in every case about BMW. Buy an i3 or i8 and I'm pretty confident BMW will give you a core for those batteries if you needed to swap them for some odd reason. And, I'm sure you know this already so I won't go too far into this, but you kinda took us in this direction, so here goes: it IS common in the auto industry to get money for your traded-in parts, even non-working ones: just don't deal exclusively with BWM, walk into Napa, get a core refund on your alternator, your starter, your water pump, etc, etc, etc. Buy your next battery at Costco or Walmart (don't buy CT, this isn't a Lead Acid 12V battery thead so I won't get into that), and you'll get a core for any old battery you drop off, and you'll get a prorated warranty on the new one, and with them, its pretty much no questions asked too.

And depending on what's wrong with it (I assume you just swapped out to an LSD and nothing is actually wrong with it), but if it is broken, you might even be able to pay someone in town to get that diff freshened up, and then sell it on eBay. If that's worth your time to try to do (might not be). I mention this as with the batteries, there will be a market for them too, if they have value, which it appears somehow they do. If Tesla didn't offer a trade in, and if those cells were in great shape, someone would buy them from us, even if not Tesla. But they have an incentive to rebuild them themselves, for us. Cause they want this to work and want EVs to proliferate (if you buy into their buzz).

So, and it's been stated a few times already but I'm going to drive the point home, some types of used batteries in some services, do appear to have quite a bit of residual used value on trade in.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess



Share this list you speak of.

Ditto, pls.

If I need to more untrusting of them, I'd like a bit more info/facts to help prove this out, cause as a current owner, I am vested in knowing info like this.

I know of a few Tesla "overpromises and under-delivers" but they are working to fix those, and I know of rollouts that come slowly and some aspects have been up to a year to happen (but I actually knew this going in, based on my research last Ocober when switching from buying an RS7 to buying a P85D), but, I also saw a lot lot more successes and fully realized claims.

One issue, and its a biggie imo, that you don't need to list for me cause I know about it already (and I'll say it here quickly, but I could write pages on this a a Mec E and also having 3/4 of an EE too, and my MBA): I feel it was "interesting" marketing around the summed 691 "Motor" Hp and subsequent not correcting the car mags hyping (and I don't buy the "hey ICE uses engine Hp but only delivers rwhp" and we kinda did the same, nor the lack of any real govn rules it appears on rating motor power in cars in a clear way for the end user - In any case, its not the same argument as rwhp in way way imo, they knew the fuses and hence the pack/cells couldn't handle that much power draw for >3sec and were working on a fix - so it was marketed interestingly...I, like many, did have to come to terms with the fact that maybe I dont have a true 691Hp car, I have a 3.2 sec car, soon to be 2.8 (and a much much better 1/4), and in the end, they fixed it, which is all that matters. The "equivalent Hp" to move a 5000# car that fast is all that really matters to me. Did they screw up their tech specs to me as a Mec E, yep, but again, to me deciding to buy a P85D last year is still early adopter phase, so I better be intelligent and mature and expect that as an early adopter, there are going to be issues technically with the car such as weird reporting of Hp, and inability to provide a free increase in power past 30mph (but, I don't want issues with the company as it has been around a long enuf time for me that more of the bugs I am seeing I think should have been worked out, and this isn't their leaders first rodeo either, yet, I've had one "company" issue that's still ongoing).

I'm not asking you to put a lot of time into this, but if it's easy to do it, I am morbidly curious about other issues Tesla has had, as I thought I had researched them enough to know that it was relatively safe to get a Tesla, even as an early adopter of the dual motor: if there are other lies, big issues that are unresolved, etc, maybe pm them to me, or point me to the thread where I can find such a list (and also so this thread stays a bit more about Tesla P85D performance). I'm not overly keen on looking again for a laundry list of issue as I thought I had looked pretty well last October, so if I can ask, maybe stir up my appetite to go out and do some more research, by mentioning a few things I should go out and research more about. Not looking for a lot of work/help from you, just a little help narrowing down a focus, topics to google, etc. If it was Space-X, something like "explosions on launch", etc. High level stuff.

[Tearin]

FIRST GRAVEL TEST - Been 25 years since I've really done any dirt/gravel high speed driving (not anywhere near rally racing speeds tho), and it was limited to an old Mazda, an X1/9, and a Karmann Ghia, so definately not high Hp, no AWD, no TC, much narrower tires, and pretty sure none had LSD. I have a lot better experience ice racing, and with a higher Hp turbo car too - hence much more like the Tesla (and I know, why ice race a turbo...cause, it's what I had), but again, that type of better testing will have to wait till the winter.

Conditions: 1" loose say 10mm gravel, slight tire ruts having one quarter to one half as much gravel, over a packed dirt road at a friends large acreage on way to mountains (under 1km of road to play with, and only a couple of near 90 degree corners - but it's only one lane wide, so that meant less room for error and being less able to push it.) I wasn't heading out today to test the car, just turned out that the opportunity presented itself.

Straight line acceleration: :burnout: tested a few times - car pulled straight away, front and rears kicking up some stones, TC light on for first say 100+ yds, till I let up...car felt like it had about 200Hp of "asphalt road" acceleration/power..again, about what I'd expect from the TB SS in same conditions with it's much more familiar and common AWD system, and same size of tires (and in case anyone is wondering, yes the whole car has PPF, so I'm OK doing this, a bit, on gravel). Biggest point is that it did what I expected it to, and I never noticed there were two different motors or that the larger motor's rear end was more lose. But, TC was on the whole time I was on the throttle and it may have been managing all this. Even still it did it well, the car tracked true every time, even with me spinning the wheels. So that's good. It's not like I expect something to be horribly wrong with the car, if so, we would have heard about it from the guys who took delivery of their cars in January. It was bascially almost all straight road, so I didn't get to try steering the car with the tires spinning (i.e.: accelerating in a snowy/icy corner).

Cornering: The laneway only had two different corners and we only drove it once each way, so not a lot of data. Relative to the road conditions, I kept it at medium speed and also very smooth thru the corners (wife was in car and thanked me) and I never pushed enough to see if it was easy to drift in those conditions, or if it under or oversteered any corner, nor did I try to induce anything...and note that I didn't even push it enough to get the TC light on. So not a lot of usable data yet, except to again note that I never noticed the motors or TC doing anything funny, while at speeds faster than most Tesla drivers would probably take those corners.

It's not like people buy Teslas to rally them, (but I'm sure someone out there who is a much much better driver than me will do it eventually), I am more playing in the gravel only cause it's not winter yet, and I'm trying to extrapolate how the car will be in something that is much more important and common, snow and ice driving...Next time I'll find a safer spot to try to get the car closer to its limits and see how it is wrt being able to drift, over or understeer, and of course recovery, esp to see if it's similar to other more typical AWD cars/systems.

Biases: I'm purposefully not looking into how the AWD is integrated/works, till till my initial winter testing is done (Nov?). I know it's two motors and I know the Hp of each, and that's about it. And I've avoided reading any specifics about the few guys in Europe who posted their impressions on winter handling of the Tesla. I'm trying to avoid any influence or "suggestability" issues whereby I think I feel/experience what I expect to feel based on having analyzed the system mechanically, or based on what others have said. I seem to be succeptible to this more than I like, esp with wine and food tasting... ...basically, by not knowing about the AWD and TC, I'm trying to avoid thinking I taste strawberry, as I always do, right after "someone" tells me they tasted a hint of strawberry in the red - and ya, that happens waaay too often...it's almost impossible for me to match the wife in wine and food tasting.:)

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by B18C
This is why I'm one of the first on the list at Vancouver's service centre to get the Ludacrious upgrade (to my wife's ultimate frustration). I highly doubt I'll be able to tell the difference between 3.1 and 2.8 seconds but I'm still getting it because I want it.


Can I come? :D I think you'll need a backup driver.

[rage2]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
I got to drive it out of his garage the other day. Happiest 20 feet I've ever driven.
Don't get mad at me tomorrow morning... :devil:

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by rage2

Don't get mad at me tomorrow morning... :devil:

I had my chance and I blew it.

[supe]

Originally posted by killramos
Not even going to touch the continual touting of the only impressive statistic that the car has, its 0-60 time. If that's all a supercar is to you then :thumbsup: .
[/B]

I find it best just to ignore this guy he mostly just trolls. But just to entertain, how about the fact that this car is likely the safest car on the road, you know the one that broke the roof crush equipment in its safety tests.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a5238/watch-the-tesla-model-s-break-the-nhtsa-crash-test-scale/

[Tearin]

Just made a post in Rage's P85D test drive thread about the regen braking, and two problems I can see with it that are safety concerns.

Rage's Thread (http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/disrupt-the-tesla-model-s-p85d-reviewed/showthread.php?s=&postid=4495006#post4495006)

One new issue to offer up is the cupholders. Apparently only the first or second year of the Model S (they don't really have model years) had spring loaded cupholders, and I guess with the g forces EV cars can produce, it was puncturing a few peoples styrofoam coffee cups and making a mess (I know, first world problem).

So they got rid of the "cinchers" and went with a 2 7/8" bottom, 3 1/8" top open cup holder. On the weekend, I almost launched my fast food drink cornering and accelerating at a spirited pace, but not at max. It holds pop cans OK as they are shorter, but 591ml bottles, and tall Fast food containers, or tall coffee mugs are risky.

It's mentioned a few times in the Tesla forums that the fix is to source a couple of Trailblazer front cup holder rubber inserts for ten bucks, which actually works OK for 591ml bottles, but still not great for tall fast food containers. (odd that the only "cheap" fix thats doesn't look too ghetto that's out there is one I could actually test immediately, for free, as I have a Trailblazer). Other fixed are buying a new center console...d'oh. Brabus included one in their "hot off the presses" aftermarket accesories for the Tesla, for like 4500 Euro :eek: Heats, cools, and inductive charging of phones... Brabus Kit
(http://www.topspeed.com/cars/tesla/2015-tesla-model-s-by-brabus-ar171227.html)

This seems like it's not really something to whine about, but they produced a high Hp Sedan this time, not a Lotus shelled Roadster, so it needs more and better cupholders. This sentiment is repeated many times in the forums but I didn't realize it till I did my first fast food run in the car on the weekend. Granted other car companies have missed the mark wrt well designed cupholders, but a lot of car companies have it right it's not like they need to reinvent the wheel, nor are other design proprietary....the car is expensive enough already that it doesn't need to be stripped of features such as this for a "base" feel, so even for the two cupholders we do have, it should have better "jaws" to hold drinks, as this thing pulls 1g.

So the driving experience this weekend was almost needing a carpet shampoo, were it not for the quick hands of the s.o., catching the two drinks in the corner.

[rage2]

B18C's shit was flying everywhere when I was doing the launches. :rofl:

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Tearin

One new issue to offer up is the cupholders. Apparently only the first or second year of the Model S (they don't really have model years) had spring loaded cupholders, and I guess with the g forces EV cars can produce, it was puncturing a few peoples styrofoam coffee cups and making a mess (I know, first world problem).


Hippies shouldn't be using styrofoam cups, anyways. :D

[CanmoreOrLess]

Wireless charging is available as well on all electric and Volt like cars: https://www.pluglesspower.com

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
Wireless charging is available as well on all electric and Volt like cars: https://www.pluglesspower.com

You pay for 7-12% more electricity for the convenience.

It would also take 24hrs to fully charge a P85D from empty. Hence, this only works for cars with <20kwh batteries.

[01RedDX]

.

[LOLzilla]

Good thread. Thanks for posting it up. Where do you get the car serviced if you have issues?

[rage2]

Local service center is opening soon they say, but they've been saying that since 3 years ago. I think they just send rangers out to fix shit right now.

[flipstah]

Originally posted by rage2
B18C's shit was flying everywhere when I was doing the launches. :rofl:

He finally got one! Yay! Every time I saw him, he kept dreaming about it.

:love:

[B18C]

Originally posted by rage2
Local service center is opening soon they say, but they've been saying that since 3 years ago. I think they just send rangers out to fix shit right now.

They are opening a store in Chinook in the next couple months so I'm hopeful a service centre isn't far behind.

Right now they send out rangers if we have any problems.

[B18C]

Originally posted by flipstah


He finally got one! Yay! Every time I saw him, he kept dreaming about it.

:love:

Yup. I was just waiting for the dual motor to come out and then warmer weather. Took delivery in April.

[flipstah]

Originally posted by B18C


Yup. I was just waiting for the dual motor to come out and then warmer weather. Took delivery in April.

Awesome to hear. :thumbsup:

You're a good example of dreams coming true! I'll bug you about it if I see you again. Should be fairly soon :)

[rage2]

His P85D was the one I reviewed if you missed it.

[msommers]

After reading this thread and the other last night, Killarmos has some crazy level of hate for Tesla. Like they're going to steal his BMW pillow he holds while sleeping.

[Tearin]

Warning, what I am going to say is going to be a bit more controversial than some of the other comments I've made, and may stir up a heated discussion. Just remember that this isn't about Tesla per se, it's about the rollout of a few new autopilot features on their cars, which we may or may not be ready for. But the governments were the ones responsible imo to allow or stop this rollout (not the car manfacturers), so let's keep that in mind when posting, just in case this does get heated (for sure if any fatalities occur in the next while, there will be more than just this thread online that will have heated discussions, esp as it may be the Tesla driver that injures others (Tesla's being quite the strong car and the target of a lot of "press").

Last night they pushed the rest of the Autopilot features to those of us with the hardware (late 2014+) [and of course, my car just went in yesterday to get Opti on it (d’oh - won't get it back till Sunday at earliest, then I'll post about the full autopilot features).]

[ASIDE - And before we get dragged into arguing about and/or resisting ANY change, and/or arguing whether advancing autopilot features is bad, the fact is, the next steps are being taken. Put another way, all change is resisted by some...imagine it's 50 years in the future, every car has a great autopilot system, we are stacked together travelling at 150kph with 2' between cars, etc, and a few automakers says to everyone, "lets all go to manual driving" as it's more "fun" (who knows why they would do it - it's moot to this point). Anyways, recognize that that would be a change back to what we have now, yet everyone would resist that too, and much much much more strongly as it puts controls back into the hands of drivers who may have never driven manually...change is always resisted, so I am not arguing about the change, but I may be arguing about the execution of this change, as I really want this to be successful for Tesla and the rest of the car manufacturers as it is another step forward to fully autonomous highways (as a minimum).] So onto my comments:

From the first half day of comments online, it looks like they got rid of the analog looking speedo which is something that I strongly disagree with (I want/need to see rate of change of the "needle" - even if it's a digital needle/LED type of readout). I have always hated a single number digital readout for the speed, unless it was a secondary readout, say on an HUD. I knew this chnage was coming, but I had hoped that the leaked info was wrong and that they would give us the feature to chose the analog looking gauges when we weren't using Autopilot. Maybe if we ask nice we'll get it back…course by then I'll already be used to the new one, and won't care as much...

Further, it looks like the lane correct auto steer feature is too "jerky" - some have said it's akin to a new driver overcorrecting. Also it looks like one of the ways of getting it out of auto steer mode, is by cranking the wheel "hard" (can't comment on the word "hard" till I get the car back), but they say that the maneouver to disconnect also also causes mild lane veering (again, "mild" is a relative measurement, I'll post real numbers like the feet of veering, and at a few speeds in case it's variable). So I'll have to wait till Sunday to see/test it.

Now, when I bought the car I had never planned to use the autodrive features on the road in the rain or in winter so those things won't be catastrophically dangerous to me but maybe others will try to do so, and fail, with catastrophic consequences - this car is a 5000# weapon (actually, I have never used my cruise in rain or winter, but I know people who have, but usually only till they "learn" the hard way that they shouldn't), but, even if using it only in the summer, jerky responses will be another thing that I won't be happy about [similar to my prior comments about me not liking the fact that "regen braking" shows my taillights too much to drivers I have passed or worse yet have changed lanes in front of]...if the car does indeed make "jerking" motion (which also isn't going to be good for drivers around me either)...so I might not use it unless they can fix some of this, depending on it's severity...and in the interim I might just have to be happy with only using the "lane keep" feedback steering shimmy and the new un-piloted parking (which is probably like 10 year old tech in other cars) and sure, I might try an auto lane switch maneuver once in a while just to be impressed or to show off to a passenger what most cars might be like in 20 years, and I might use the same feature when merging, IF it's easy to activate while driving. So, today, based on others initial testing, until some of this is sorted out I can't see me using the most autonomous and advanced of the auto driving features for anything except maybe for merging, and unless that feature is also really good and seamless to activate, that would be probably be something I'd also rarely use (most everything else I feel happy using we already had - like the collision avoidance autobraking from prior Tesla software - which also I haven't tested fully yet to see how late and how hard it brakes (the test will be to find an abandoned area and drive towards the back 1/4 panel of one of my other cars (which would be ready to drive away at 90 degrees to me), and me to try to also veer around the back of the car as it drives away if I had too, which won't be fun, as trying to steer when the car is already in ABS lockup won't get me very much steering capability - maybe I'll use a blanket/sheet instead of another car and see if the sensors echo back thinking that it’s a car and autobrakes… …so, you can see why I haven't tested this yet), anyways, I can say that I have had rain obstruct the lanemarker lines with some lane keeping vibration testing I tried a few months ago (didn't respond), and I've had the pre collision auto-warning beep a few times while merging and even got to the stage of showing the big red crash symbol on the gauges (hard to miss), when a car was stopped ahead of me in the merge lane (let's not get started on that pet peeve - we share the road with all levels of drivers and need to be prepared for stuff like this all the time)...but again, many cars have had this collision avoidance tech for many years, so it's not like anyone needs to hear about those experiences, so I hadn't shared those before - imo it works like it should compared to other cars I've driven, based on a small smaple size so far, I'd say the anticollision warning is 90% accurate, a bit overly sensitive imo, picks up on things other than cars and warns you about them...but in day to day driving, it hasn't autobraked on me yet, either when I need it to (havent needed it yet) nor falsely).

What causes me concern is the potential to abuse the autopilot, causing legislators to mandate no one having autopilot till all cars have well sorted out autopilot systems (20 years out?). The system is at "early adopter" stage, and not all other systems may be in place to support it and make it work great. The system relies on well painted lines on roads, well maintained sensors on our cars, and smart and attentive people being behind the wheel. And the "risk specialist" in me knows that we aren't all smart and no way are we all attentive behind the wheel (and autopilot will make that worse; it's the "moral hazard" of giving us autopilot). So even with the already known limitation in autopilot (rain and snow dangerous, and won't actually work if lines on road aren't visible, dirty, etc). I'd hate to have the car taking me around a corner and the lanes dotted line "disappears" and the autopilot disengages. I bet it isn't going to be a seamless recovery for even an experienced and attentive driver, and I think everyone should know 1) when it tends to disengage, 2) what it feels like, and 3) what it's like when recovering from it, BEFORE they can go on the road (I've always said to take your kids to an empty parking lot at night on a snowy day and show them what the ABS feels like so they don't freak out when the pedal starts shaking), so, given the different things that need to happen to test the "lane keep" with disappearing lines, it'll be very hard for me to test on a real road, so that I know what it feels like and how far the car drifts after it loses the road line, before it recovers or turns over control, as it's hard to find a spot where there are missing lines in corners...

So, given the sh!t storm that took place when the guy drove the Tesla over the driveshaft and punctured his cells and had the fire, imagine what will happen if major accidents start to occur due to missing lines on roads and inattentive people. Personally it's almost like you need to be more attentive and ready to anticipate when to take control back from the car, knowing that the car might get you slightly off line before it disengages/gives back control. I want it to give me warning and hence control back, long before the lines on the road get obscured by say dirt or gravel, and even then, it won't be a fun transition I bet, and everyone around me on the road might not like the drifting and potentially jerky correction....So, with all the extra autopiloted cars on the road now, I predict some of the most advanced features might not last very long before the DOT pulls em, or, for Tesla, requires them to modify the autopilot to maybe require more positive feedback from us than simply having the steering wheel sense that we have at least one hand on the wheel (I think that is how it works, again, car is in shop for the weekend - have to test next week but this is what the Tesla forums are saying). So again, take some of this with a grain of salt, as I haven't tried it out yet, this is second hand info based on one day of peoples use, and I do feel to make any strong analysis or predictions, I of course need to get my own "seat time" - and ironic use of that phrase, as "seat time" is about all I get to do, just sit there, when testing some of this stuff - no brake, no accelerator, light steering wheel touch.

So I'm hoping it's working better than some folks are reporting (there will always be overly critical naysayers), so that we do get to ramp up the move to autonomous driving, but I am highly skeptical that everyone will use it properly, and a bit worried that there may not be enough safeguards built in, etc, to prevent accidents (say for instance those Mercedes "nod off" sensors might make sense in the Tesla too now). Time will tell how bad this might get, and just like in the past, every unique Tesla accident is going to be over scrutinized again, but change of this magnitude has to start somewhere, it's just that I'm not sure every "pilot" out there is ready for "auto pilot". So again this is more a comment on the more advanced autopilot features and their rollout (think lane change/merge), and less on Tesla specifically.

Being able to actually get in my car and use these features today, without any extra training, or watching videos, or a simulator, or parking lot testing and certification (aka an "advanced" drivers licence) might be a bit much and a bit unexpected. I didn't expect any training like this when we got cruise control, or ABS, or auto collision avoidance, but maybe think like lane keep and lae switch should come with a one hour training class before being activated on cars, if only for potential future liability reasons, and to maybe make sure it doesn't automatically get turned off by the DOT once there are 2 or 3 accidents in the next while with autopiloted Teslas (or other cars). Heck, maybe before the average person gets a 400Hp+ car (or a 2.8 sec car) we should also have to take an advanced license, but that would be a whole other thread. So this is just my 2c and I am only speaking as a current P85D Tesla owner whose driven a few other high end cars with other systems (wish we had heat radar and HUD), and these are my initial thoughs before having testing the latest from Tesla fully to see how sorted out and integrated it is.

Also, last I heard, service centre might be January for Calgary, and most who are following this thread probably know the Tesla is in Chinook already (at the North end - white 70D parked there with Chris's business card in the window)...and I guess the store is still "imminent". I understand the lease is signed with Chinook, so that's good news as the more Teslas that sell, the sooner we actually get to the plateau to warrant a service centre...so right now it's Rangers here one week out of the month working on our cars...

[01RedDX]

.

[rage2]

I think we should do an on road comparison of the Tesla vs Mercedes autopilot. I know the Merc version is very well sorted, but it doesn't have lane change. Interested?

[Tearin]

I'm game.

I've experienced some of the "lower end" 2014 era autopilot features on a CLA AMG, but nothing where I could push the limits of collision avoidance, etc. Just blind spot and the usual stuff. And on that note, I really think they missed the ball not putting a blind spot indication on the mirrors, and just using the old instrument cluster that had small white bars at the bottom of the speedo, almost invincible when driving with your head up. They say they didn't want it, it was intentional, as they think their system is better. Ah, change. Let's hope this is something they improved with the new autopilot instrument cluster - I hope they made it more visible when someone is there, even if my blinker isn't on...

[rage2]

The CLA doesn't have autopilot. It's the C class and up that gets it. I'll get benyl and his E63S Wagon that has it and we'll write up a full comparison. Shoot me a PM with your number and we'll figure out a time and place.

[Tearin]

PM sent. And ya, I guess I shouldn't call the CLA stuff "autopilot" . They're more driver assistance stuff, but not autopilot.

[speedog]

If you've ever driven the #1 Calgary-Medicine Hat, then you'd probably be more then willing to have autopilot features.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by rage2
The CLA doesn't have autopilot. It's the C class and up that gets it. I'll get benyl and his E63S Wagon that has it and we'll write up a full comparison. Shoot me a PM with your number and we'll figure out a time and place.

Can't wait. Truth be told I'm kinda interested in electric car as a daily driver, even if not a Tesla.

[B18C]

I got the Auto-pilot upgrade Thursday. Updated while I was at work and used it on deerfoot on the way home after work. Works great!

I love the new display. It totally makes sense with the auto-pilot features. The pre-auto-pilot guys will probably be upset as it must be a huge waste of space for them so that kind of sucks.

I have not used MB's auto-pilot features or any other car with similar features so I obviously cannot compare. That said, I'm really impressed with Tesla's auto-pilot and if the other car companies have something similar, we are all in for a treat.

In traffic, on Deerfoot, it worked flawlessly. I found acceleration/deceleration to be smooth and it kept in the lane really well. It did seem to like to hug the right lane marker more than I usually do. I'm not sure if it's because I tend to drive on the left side of the lane or if Tesla has tendency for the right side. Not a big deal, just a little weird.

I had my doubts about how well it would work on Country Hills Blvd as my car used to beep at me all the time will false lane departure warnings due to all the swiggly repair lines on the road. It did just fine. It had trouble on the exit ramp from Beddington to Country Hills and gets a bit squirrely at a couple intersections where I had to take over but overall I'm very impressed.

I was so impressed that I decided to take the family on an impromptu drive to Banff yesterday for the first time in probably 10+ years (I know I'm a terrible Calgarian. My oldest child is 6yo and he has never been to the mountains!). Used auto-pilot the entire way there. Only had to take over once on the way there and was flawless on the way back. We also got to test out the Auto-park feature. My wife thought I lost my mind and I squealed like a school girl as it was parking.

Emergency take-over can be a bit jerky. I wouldn't want to try on slippery roads. Regular take over, like when I want to take over steering, is pretty smooth. Doesn't take much pressure to override steering.

Overall, very impressed. I'm more sold on Tesla than ever. I've stated before that for me, the Model S is the absolute best car out there. It is so versatile and fun to drive, I would not trade it for any other car in the world - other than the P90DL. The power of OTA upgrades makes the car is ridiculously awesome. With the auto-pilot enabled software it's like I have a new car. The display is different, the sensors are more active (and seem more powerful), everything is just better. The best thing is, it is all just going to get better. That is something that you can't say about any other car out there.

Now, with all that said, the one thing that bothers me is the fact that the auto-pilot features are technically still in beta. How they announce a feature almost an entire year ago, demo it at their "D event" and still release it in beta is odd to me.

[rage2]

Thanks benyl and Tearin for demoing autopilot in your cars this afternoon. Very entertaining for me watching from the back seat!

[blairtruck]

what were the reason you had to take over one time on the trip to banff.

[rage2]

If I had to guess its the 70kmh construction zone right outside the first banff turnoff. There are no lane markers there. On the way back, no construction on eastbound TC1.

I just drove it yesterday too, except I had to pilot myself.

[Tearin]

Here's the link to the blog post on the test drive.

Autopilot Showdown Tesla P85D vs Mercedes E63S Wagon (http://www.beyond.ca/autopilot-showdown-tesla-p85d-vs-mercedes-e63s-wagon/53192.html)

[Tearin]

An interesting test of the two systems, one of which is hot off the presses from late last week. I've had a few more days of testing and reading of Tesla's claimed capabilities for the autopilot, and we definitely pushed the limits of what Tesla says it can do.

I think things like the instruction manual could have be better, before this got pushed out, as Beta testers have had the autopilot for a while, yet there seems to be easy errors for Tesla to have fixed, which haven't been done. The manual says autopilot cuts out at 145kph, yet 3 days of driving says it actually cuts out at 150kph. The car was supposed to have a hold mode at red light where after 3 seconds you have to reactivate the autopilot and cruise (and the old software had this for restarting the cruise). But, this only showed up once for us on the test drive, and it's never done it since (glitch or "feature")? In stop and go traffic, even after a long red light, the Tesla just picks right up again, no need to touch the cruise stick.

You also have to carefully discern from the manual what's a requirement vs what's a warning (and some are just suggestions I think). While the Mercedes seems like you did have to touch the wheel with a tiny bit of force at regular intervals (15 sec?) the Tesla only occasionally reminds us of this, and at least once, as a test, for 5 minutes on a straighter section of highway, I didn't touch the wheel, and the car never handed me back control nor pulled over (the manual says eventually the car will pull over and the hazards will turn on if we don't touch the wheel, but I've yet to see it happen). Maybe on the next road trip I'll try it to see how long it takes to kick in that safety feature.

Although on the test drive the Tesla made it 3/4 of the way around a 90 degree turn, from one street to another following a truck, in the past two days, I haven't been able to reproduce that as well as it did on the test drive. Most time it abruptly disconnects in the middle of the intersection, so it's definitely not a "feature".

My other disappointment is that, on highway entrances, I was hoping the lane change would allow it to merge a bit better, as I think some drivers might benefit from that feature. Typically, most good drivers are shoulder checking and are ready to merge as soon as they reach the dotted line, but the Tesla, even with the turn signal engaged early, uses at least 30m of the acceleration lane to check if the road is clear, and it even seems to merge too slowly onto an empty highway, which can use up a fair bit of a short merge lane. It can do aggressive lane changes when cruising on the highway and tuck itself into tight spots (I have "distance/time to follow" set at only 1 out of 7), likely as the sensors have been monitoring all the cars around the Tesla for a while, but it feels less aggressive when merging, perhaps as the sensors need time to re-sense cars after coming out of a cloverleaf or an off-ramp.

Much like Benyl, I really like it for stop and go traffic, it's really quite good, and I will probably use it then, and maybe even on some long drives, as with clearly marked highways, it can hold a lane better than I can (+/- 6" in daytime on a typical road), especially if I am trying to tune the radio, answer a call, etc. The rest of the time, I want to be the driver of the car, and probably won't opt to be chauffeured around.

But this is just first impressions, I'll drive it a few more days (as I was the newbie to autopilot when on the test drive), and I'll post my detailed impressions of it's pros and cons in a few days.

[Tearin]

Originally posted by B18C
I'm not sure if it's because I tend to drive on the left side of the lane or if Tesla has tendency for the right side. Not a big deal, just a little weird.



I'd say almost all the time on a normal width road it was right down the middle (meanders a bit more on really wide lanes - takes a bit longer to find middle), and right down the middle probably could feel off for some drivers depending on their preference (hugging left or right side of lane). Luckily I was able to be a passenger in my car when Benyl took it out, and it was easy to use the side mirrors to check the spacing of the lines to the tires, and as expected, we noticed that it was really close to being "down the middle". It would be surprising if they programmed it any other way. Given that the cars go to UK, Japan, etc, that's another reason I suspect the would have to aim for middle tracking; for simplicity of programming and the ability to travel with your car - for instance UK drivers going to France, and vice versa.

Having said that, maybe it can recognize a yellow vs a white line and biases closer to a white line in those conditions, as thats fits the description you gave. Were you in the fast lane on Deerfoot and on the way to Banff, or did you notice the right bias while also in the middle or the right lane. I'll try to test the yellow vs white lines as well. That's splitting hairs I'm sure as it tracks really nice and very close to middle, but I'm now curious as it would be some sophisticated programming if it did move a little more away from a yellow than a white line...Benyl was the first to notice that the Tesla sensors picked up on not just other cars as expected, but also on curbs (whether on left or right), so perhaps it biases a bit away from the lane that had the curb, or a k-rail/jersey barrier). We didn't notice any lane tracking bias at the same time the autopilot was indicating the curb, but we also weren't specifically looking to see if it did bias away from it. With three of us in the car, one of us probably would have noticed, but I'll test that again as well - bias away from curb or jersey barriers.

One odd thing that a manual pilot would usually do that the autopilot didn't, is that it doesn't veer away from other cars that might be "too" close to hugging your lane. I hope it would if it became a real threat as the sensors/system I think has been designed to take action to avoid contact, but until another car encoaches on my lane while I am in autopilot, I'll be hard to test (might ask the wife to test it with her car and the Tesla on the weekend tho). Basically on Deerfoot we passed a large pickup that was right next to our lane, and the Tesla just ignored it and tracked down the middle of the road. He wasn't on top of the dotted line, so maybe that is the trigger for the car to take action, but this will be interesting to see what happens the first time it occurs. The side sensors seems to have three range warnings and I don't think it went red, which is probably when autopilot would take some action, even if it was just audible ones. I'll need to read that in the manual, as there was a lot to digest in the half hour before we started the test. I'm sure it has happened to some Tesla driver out there already in the last half week, so I'm sure we already know if it does avoid a car that mildly encroaches on one's lane, or in one's blind spot warning zone (we know it does it well if he is ahead when he encroaches, but what about side by side potential contact). The last gen of Tesla's system, and also the new one, is really good at slowing down when cars start to pull in front of us, and its quick smooth resetting of the distance/time gap the driver has selected, so I imagine that it also might not react till the other car actually enters the predicted travel path of the Tesla, based on the cameras view of the lanes ahead. And I would like to see/learn what those safety margins are before it warns and/or takes action...I hope it's more than say 50cm (mirror clearance distance between two trucks?)...but even 50cm is going to be too close for most drivers to feel comfortable....

[B18C]

Originally posted by blairtruck
what were the reason you had to take over one time on the trip to banff.

It was where that lake/turnoff place is right before Canmore. Where the quarry or whatever is. There is a downhill part with a pretty big turn and the car didn't like it.

[B18C]

I have noticed the sensors show yellow when it picks up a curb and white for cars. I'm wondering if the is bias for being further from curbs. I'll try it tonight.

I'm really I impressed with autopilot in traffic. It's been awesome on Deerfoot. I'm dreading winter even more now when I can't use autopilot.

[Tearin]

I got the sensors to turn yellow on some curbs too, it seems to depend on how close you get to them, I think, as I also saw white for some curbs.

But I also figured out the bias issue. It has no bias to one side or the other when there are lines on both sides of the lane. But if the lines on the left aren't painted (say it's just a curb), and hence the display isn't showing a blue line on that side, the car drifts almost a foot over to the right to lock onto the remaining line, and be about one foot off the middle dotted lines (the one that would be between two lanes heading the same direction). Then when the lines on the left reappear, the car shifts right back to the middle. I didn't notice this as much till I was on a wider road tonight (Blackfoot S) that had the left hand yellow line appearing and disappearing. So it was more obvious to notice when it's a wider road. Oh, and when trying to dechiper the comments, all apply when one is in the left most (the fast) lane on a road. :eek: And the autopilot works well on larger 2 lane and up roads, as I've learned in the last few days that it seems hit and miss whether single lane roads have painted lines.

And I can also say it does not preferentially bias away from krail/jersey barriers nor yellow lines. In the left lane, heading south tonight on MacLeod, over Cemetary Hill where the lanes are quite narrow and the jersey barriers and yellow line are almost on top of each other, the car held the middle still, which is a little more left than I like at that location, as I probably cheat a bit too much away from the jersey barrier there...

[Tearin]

Originally posted by B18C


It was where that lake/turnoff place is right before Canmore. Where the quarry or whatever is. There is a downhill part with a pretty big turn and the car didn't like it.

That's Lac des Arc and the Exshaw cement and the limestone plant at Seebe. It's a tight corner for sure, and that IS NOT a good place to have the car decide to give you back control IMO - not a lot of time to react before you are into the median w momenturm carrying you towards oncoming traffic. Hmm...I think it has new pavement there, and I think the lines are painted properly....any idea why it turned off, as this is exactly the type of thing that worries me.

I had the car flying around cloverleafs and offramps (while having hands at 3 and 9 ready to take over) the last couple of days, and it's never flinched even a little bit, but if I'm in the middle of that corner (or similar) at Lac des Arcs and it does a "Crazy Ivan" on me... then to me this autopilot might be more gimmicky and for show, than usable.

Can you elaborate on the situation as it broke free....any chance you were also turning the wheel hard enough to turn off autopilot...had you been touching the wheel so it knew you were there as I may be imagining this (I'll know better in a few more days), but I actually think that the tighter the corner the more it seems to want to remind me to touch it (put a bit of force onto the wheel)... did it give you the red warning to take over the steering and also the beeps, as it disengaged (which means you hadn't actually turned it off with your hands by giving it more or less turning force that the autopilot was using)...just the engineer in me guessing at things that might have caused it to turn off...

[supe]

Here is another endorsement by a notable figure in the industry.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ferrari-boss-elon-musk-greatest-155608987.html


FERRARI BOSS: Elon Musk is 'the greatest'

killramos, thoughts?

[killramos]

Originally posted by supe

killramos, thoughts?

Posting the entire article you were so happy to quote.


Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne is a self-proclaimed fan of Tesla CEO Elon Musk.
"I'm a phenomenal fan of Elon Musk," Marchionne said in a CNBC interview on Wednesday. "I think he's the greatest.

"He's a disrupter, and I think he is a great marketer. And I love him."

Ferrari opened for trading on Wednesday at $60 a share, or 15% above its initial-public-offering price of $52.

Ferrari's sales are growing, but slowly. There are not that many new Ferrari customers each year.

Marchionne suggested that wealthy individuals who should be buying Ferraris had been buying the wrong cars.

That turned into a dig at Tesla.

"I'm not going to make derogatory remarks about the competition, but if you have to wait over 12 months to get a car, people have a tendency in some cases to go someplace else," he said.

Tesla is known to struggle to deliver on time.

But as for Musk himself, Marchionne had only good things to say on Wednesday, repeating, "I think he's a great marketer."

To caption he called Musk a great marketer, not something anyone on here has every disputed. Honestly i think he could sell shit in a box and people would still pay for it. Kudos to him.

Second he implies that people buying his cars shouldn't be, that they should be buying Ferraris. That its ridiculous to wait around for a year for a car to arrive.

Not exactly a glowing endorsement of his company or his cars...

PS: Sorry Tearin et all for coming back in and muddying your thread, I'm done arguing about Tesla on here. But if Supe wants to goad me into pointing out his stupidity I will do that ( hopefully without trashing the cars to much ).

[supe]

If you ask me, someone of his stature recognizing Tesla as "competition" is an endorsement, keeping in mind the very low volume of cars Tesla is selling right now.

[01RedDX]

.

[killramos]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


OK, and can you please explain why you think Sergio Marchionne is an idiot?


Can you explain where I said that he was?

:hijack:

edit:

Oh so you now say that Sergio Marchionne thinks Elon Musk is a Hero?Because of one very pointed endorsement?

Might want to be careful about which words you are putting in peoples mouths.:bullshit:

anyhow pce

[01RedDX]

.

[killramos]

Originally posted by 01RedDX

Anyhoo, pce (thought you were done with this?) :rofl:

:rolleyes:

[B18C]

You can get your car to fly through cloverleafs? Mine always warns me and "keep my hands on the wheel" and then will eventually tell me to take over. This is on very clearly marked ramps too.

As for the Exshaw cement and the limestone plant at Seebe situation, I suspected it wasn't liking the situation a whole bunch. I was coming down the hill. It took the right turn like a champ but then as I was winding past the lake with the road turning left with a more steep down slope and it went very quickly from "keep hands on the wheel" to "emergency takeover".

It felt like the car might have a problem with the turn and I was ready for it with my hands on the wheel. It seemed like I was going pretty fast for the amount the road turned so I was getting ready to take over anyways.

I'm getting more comfortable with the autopilot now and have been pretty good at sensing situations that it doesn't like. Mainly sharp turns and intersections where the lanes on either side don't line up well where there is no car to follow.