Canada revokes citizenship for first time ever.

[ZenOps]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto-18-ringleader-citizenship-1.3245319

I don't know about that. Really, how can you revoke something so innate in nature. By revoking citizenship it externalizes responsibility that he grew his ideals from this country. Its arguably incredibly irresponsible to not take the blame for creating the environment which allowed this type of person to come into being.

Its like Germany after losing the war, revoking the German citizenship of Hitler. Crazy - No, you must fess up as a nation.

It doesn't work that way in my book. You have to take accomplishments as well as failures.

If on the other hand, a citizen decides to renounce their citizenship as the country no longer fits for whatever reason, that makes 100% sense to me.

[frizzlefry]

The guy was born in Jordan. Your citizenship can't be taken if you were born here. That's the big controversy, this law basically makes two "classes" of citizens. Born here and not born here.

If convicted by Canadian courts then I am ok with a terrorist losing their citizenship.

Question is what defines a terrorist?

[CanmoreOrLess]

Hitler was born in Austria FYI.

Revoking the papers of a person not deemed to be a valued Canadian, I'm OK with that 24/7. Cull the herd I say. Frankly, we could cull a few thousand and be better for it.

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
The guy was born in Jordan. Your citizenship can't be taken if you were born here. That's the big controversy, this law basically makes two "classes" of citizens. Born here and not born here.

If convicted by Canadian courts then I am ok with a terrorist losing their citizenship.

Question is what defines a terrorist?

The "second class" citizenship is not only applicable to those who were born outside of Canada, but also includes those who were born here if they have or are eligible for another citizenship. (see http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-dual-citizens-need-to-know-about-bill-c-24-the-new-citizenship-law-1.2426968 )

I was born here in Calgary and have lived in this city my entire life but also happen to have British citizenship as my parents both came to Canada on British passports. I wouldn't trust Kenney's judgement when it comes to assessing who is/isn't a "terrorist".

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Gainsbarre


The "second class" citizenship is not only applicable to those who were born outside of Canada, but also includes those who were born here if they have or are eligible for another citizenship. (see http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-dual-citizens-need-to-know-about-bill-c-24-the-new-citizenship-law-1.2426968 )

I was born here in Calgary and have lived in this city my entire life but also happen to have British citizenship as my parents both came to Canada on British passports. I wouldn't trust Kenney's judgement when it comes to assessing who is/isn't a "terrorist".

I'm reasonably sure that it's the courts who hand out convictions for the charges that get you tossed and not an MP.

Either way, do you seriously want this piece of shit in Canada after serving only 6 years? Seriously doubt he'll be "rehabilitated" at that point.

[M.alex]

Originally posted by Gainsbarre


I was born here in Calgary and have lived in this city my entire life but also happen to have British citizenship as my parents both came to Canada on British passports. I wouldn't trust Kenney's judgement when it comes to assessing who is/isn't a "terrorist".

Sounds like something a terrorist would say .... have you ever showed other signs of suspicious activity, such as setting stuff on fire.......

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
That's the big controversy, this law basically makes two "classes" of citizens. Born here and not born here.

It's a faux controversy drummed up for election season. Canada has had two "classes" of citizens (ie deportable and non-deportable) due to our agreements under the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. We can't deport a natural-born single-citizenship Canadian because that would make them stateless. Anybody else is technically deportable and it's been that way for over 50 years.

[01RedDX]

.

[frizzlefry]

You get new passports. In-laws escaped the USSR and came across Canada. When the iron curtain fell they went to a Polish embassy, traded in their old passports for new ones.

It would be rare to find someone who is stateless.

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
Hitler was born in Austria FYI.

Revoking the papers of a person not deemed to be a valued Canadian, I'm OK with that 24/7. Cull the herd I say. Frankly, we could cull a few thousand and be better for it.

Good find.

I'm also in the camp that this guy could be put away in a Canadian jail for a thousand years, but to simply just say "hes not our responsibility?" hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

Its like how the Harper government did a complete media hush on that military brass that was running around wearing womens clothing and then eventually went off the deep end and ended up killing a subordinate. Sweeping undesirables under the rug instead of actually dealing with the problem seems to be the rule of day.

[ZenOps]

Stateless at one time always meant poverty, nowadays it is an achieveable and desirable goal for many who have broken through the 8-digit barrier ($10 million or higher net worth)

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Its like how the Harper government did a complete media hush on that military brass that was running around wearing womens clothing and then eventually went off the deep end and ended up killing a subordinate. Sweeping undesirables under the rug instead of actually dealing with the problem seems to be the rule of day.


And how did the CPC know Russell Williams was running around in womens underwear, eventually killing two women exactly?

[FraserB]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Its like how the Harper government did a complete media hush on that military brass that was running around wearing womens clothing and then eventually went off the deep end and ended up killing a subordinate. Sweeping undesirables under the rug instead of actually dealing with the problem seems to be the rule of day.


Overlooking the fact that crossdressing is no one's business but his and it not being illegal.

He was sentenced to two life sentences for first-degree murder, two 10-year sentences for other sexual assaults, two 10-year sentences for forcible confinement, and 82 one-year sentences for breaking and entering. He won't even be eligible for parole for 25 years and was stripped of his military rank.

Can you please explain exactly how this was "brushed under the rug"?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by FraserB



Overlooking the fact that crossdressing is no one's business but his and it not being illegal.

He was sentenced to two life sentences for first-degree murder, two 10-year sentences for other sexual assaults, two 10-year sentences for forcible confinement, and 82 one-year sentences for breaking and entering. He won't even be eligible for parole for 25 years and was stripped of his military rank.

Can you please explain exactly how this was "brushed under the rug"?

They can't explain it.

But you can.

[killramos]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Interesting, so how would this affect someone who was born in a state that no longer exists, e.g. the USSR?

Have you seen the movie terminal?

:rofl:

[01RedDX]

.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Yes :rofl: In that case, "Krakozhia" fell apart while he was in transit but what I'm asking is what if the last valid passport someone had is from a country that ceased to exist at some point after they got to Canada.

My family left the USSR when I was a kid, that was the last state we had passports for before we became Canadian citizens. Where would I get extradited under this law? I wasn't born in Russia but one of the other constituent republics, which doesn't recognize me.

They just spoke about this on TV. It violates UN convention to leave someone stateless so they can only do this to people with 2 or more citizenships.

Actually, the conservative on TV said that anyone who gets their citizenship stripped will likely be deported which is the whole point of the law. Not sure this makes any sense for the government or safety.

So they get deported. Could result in another Maher Arar type case which the government took a ton of shit for, they don't get imprisoned at all in the other country and are free to join ISIS or continue plots or simply evade punishment.

On its face the law looks good but simply because of what happened with Maher Arar I'm surprised the government is barking up the deportation tree.

[01RedDX]

.

[zooter]

Originally posted by FraserB


I'm reasonably sure that it's the courts who hand out convictions for the charges that get you tossed and not an MP.

Either way, do you seriously want this piece of shit in Canada after serving only 6 years? Seriously doubt he'll be "rehabilitated" at that point.

This is another reason for the controversy and legitimacy of this Bill, the courts no longer decide. All decision making power is in the hands of the Minister, you have 60 days I think to appeal but there is ultimately no due process. Once your citizenship is revoked you are sent into exile, yes exile which is something that was practised in the Middle Ages.

There is no denying that people who support terrorism deserve the worst fate, but this Bill affects so many other Canadians that it is a hot topic.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by zooter


There is no denying that people who support terrorism deserve the worst fate, but this Bill affects so many other Canadians that it is a hot topic.

So often these precedents are set using worst-cases as justification. Once the use of the tools is establish, it's scope of application is broadened.


"you can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners".
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by zooter


This is another reason for the controversy and legitimacy of this Bill, the courts no longer decide. All decision making power is in the hands of the Minister, you have 60 days I think to appeal but there is ultimately no due process. Once your citizenship is revoked you are sent into exile, yes exile which is something that was practised in the Middle Ages.

There is no denying that people who support terrorism deserve the worst fate, but this Bill affects so many other Canadians that it is a hot topic.

Untrue. The changes make it so the Minister can revoke citizenship under routine procedural circumstances where courts are only needed for appeals, such as falsifying citizenship applications. In cases where deportation is considered for a criminal charge or similar (terrorism, etc) it still has to go through the courts 100% of the time.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by zooter
There is no denying that people who support terrorism deserve the worst fate, but this Bill affects so many other Canadians that it is a hot topic.

Please explain which other "Canadians" this affects.

It affects those who are convicted of treason, terrorism, taking up arms against Canada and those who fraudulently obtain citizenship. I'm sure you can agree that people who do any of the above are not Canadians.

Which of these groups would you like to see protected and kept in Canada?

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by FraserB


Please explain which other "Canadians" this affects.


It affects all of us, Fraser - For that which is inflicted upon our marginal elements today will be become legitimized for mainstream use.

This is how rights are eroded: In little bites.

But who am I fooling - The rights of people don't concern you. You believe in the supremacy of authority.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by FraserB


Please explain which other "Canadians" this affects.

It affects those who are convicted of treason, terrorism, taking up arms against Canada and those who fraudulently obtain citizenship. I'm sure you can agree that people who do any of the above are not Canadians.


I'm conflicted on this due to the treason aspects. The USA wants Snowden's head for treason for example. I think a whistle blower in Canada deserves protection. Not to be stripped of citizenship.

Like most of the other controversial bills by the conservatives it all depends who could be classified as a "bad guy".

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


It affects all of us, Fraser - For that which is inflicted upon our marginal elements today will be become legitimized for mainstream use.

This is how rights are eroded: In little bites.

But who am I fooling - The rights of people don't concern you. You believe in the supremacy of authority.

The UK, France and Australia have similar laws. Have these issues popped up there?

Allowing these people to stay in Canada just provides them with more opportunity to radicalize others or continue their attacks on our country.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Does this, even through the most paranoid tinfoil-laden glasses, allow for the citizenship of someone BORN in Canada to be revoked?

If yes, then at some point in time there could be a hypothetical issue. If no, then there is zero issue at all as it will never be able to be "mainstream" as no one is being marginalized (whatever that little fear nugget is supposed to invoke). Period.

Citizenship granted to someone born outside of a Country, ANY Country, is little more than granting access to a social club at the end of the day. You pay your dues, earn your way in and behave yourself. You break too many rules too many times and you're shown the door. I have zero issue with that.

[killramos]

Most countries don't really have this problem, because what you need to do to get your citizenship revoked pretty much amounts to committing treason. Which most countries still, you know, KILL PEOPLE for committing.

[ZenOps]

Look at this from another countries perspective.

Crazy nut managed to convince everyone he is sane, comes to Canada, loses control becomes radicalized and then goes on a killing spree killing hundreds of people at an event (say Olympics) where everyone is of a different nationality.

Does Canada get to be completely absolved of blame to any other nation because he may have been radicalized on Canadian soil?

Now, change Canada for Iran or Iraq. Does Iran or Iraq get to be absolved of responsibility simply because they removed him as a citizen a day before a terrorist attack but radicalized him for decades?

Its pure absurdity to try and revoke responsibility based on "being bad". If you are going to do that, I think Rob Anders citizenship should be revoked.

And: I don't think the Federal government has the power to revoke citizenship in a legal sense unless they want to break constitutional law.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Please do explain how revoking Citizenship and expelling a person after they've been through the legal system absolves anyone of anything. You're not making sense in this argument.

Follow that up by explaining why it is important to keep people, who are not Canadian by birth, here after they have proven they are a detriment to the Country in a manner such as this. Fool me once....

[ZenOps]

If a police officer bombs a stadium, and kills hundreds of innocent people, does that make it right to pretend that he was never a police officer to start with?

I guess its a matter of perspective. Some people see membership in a nation like a DVD renters club card.

Citizenship is perhaps the most important thing in your life, it determines whether or not you will be paying 50% of your life income to Queen Elizabeth, Putin, Assad, or 90% of your life productivity to Kim Jong Un (Which is also on of the biggest reasons to just go stateless)

[JRSC00LUDE]

That doesn't explain either request.

[ZenOps]

One can also look at it from the perspective, that this guy being kicked out is being actively rewarded for trying to kill hundreds of Canadians.

Who knows where he might show up a decade from now, maybe he might be one of Assads generals, maybe he might be pouring tea for Kim Jong Un.

If he were American, there is no way they would remove citizenship. They would put him under 100 life sentences at least, a very very responsible thing to do (If somewhat against the pope and life sentences for criminals)

[phreezee]

Originally posted by ZenOps

If he were American, there is no way they would remove citizenship. They would put him under 100 life sentences at least, a very very responsible thing to do (If somewhat against the pope and life sentences for criminals)

Sentenced to death like the Boston Bomber, that's one way of removing citizenship.

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by FraserB


I'm reasonably sure that it's the courts who hand out convictions for the charges that get you tossed and not an MP.

Either way, do you seriously want this piece of shit in Canada after serving only 6 years? Seriously doubt he'll be "rehabilitated" at that point.

It's Jason Kenney who is pushing for and trumpeting these instances when citizenship is revoked (undoubtedly made a priority because an election is in progress). I wouldn't trust Kenney's judgement on this file one bit, because he's one of many Harper cabinet ministers who has religion serve as a key guide in the way he acts...

It has been touched upon earlier this this thread, in that it seems that the Conservative govt. is cherry picking the instances when it wishes to revoke citizenship. When is Kenney going to push for the revocation of Col. Russell Williams' citizenship? He was born in England and terrorized + actually killed innocent civilians in Ontario for sometime. Shouldn't Russell Williams have his Canadian citizenship revoked and shipped back to England for them to deal with? Why hasn't Kenney already initiated/advocated for proceedings to revoke Russell Williams' citizenship, somebody who has been proven in a court of law to have actually murdered innocent Canadian civilians?