Secret TPP trade deal...Harper attempting to ram it through in 24 hours. [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Xtrema

10-04-2015, 03:41 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trans-pacific-partnership-near-deal-1.3256151

TPP will replace NAFTA BTW.

Timing of this is bad for an election. Once passed, even if Liberal/NDP takes over, there is nothing can be done. Much like how NAFTA sunk Mulroney PC, but we still have it.

The negotiation isn't transparent. We don't really know as public what our government is signing us up for. Only dairy industry seems to be hit the hardest. The auto sector already left for Mexico so that doesn't really hurt much.

While the biggest beef I have TPP is about copyright and pharma:

This will bring DMCA into Canadian soil:
https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp

TPP = more expensive drugs:
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news-stories/briefing-document/trading-away-health-trans-pacific-partnership-agreement-tpp

So in a way, we may be trading away our sovereignty, piece by piece.

In principle, an unlimited market to that many countries sounds good. But since we only start to feel the impact of NAFTA 20 years later, we really won't know what TPP will do to us long after current batch of politicians are gone.

JRSC00LUDE

10-04-2015, 03:57 PM

Interesting, thanks for the useful, informative post. :)

Xtrema

10-04-2015, 04:01 PM

Also, as much as I want to blame Harper, I think the Liberals may sign this deal too. The timing also isn't controlled by us but having a partner in negotiation that may change its tune in 2 weeks may speed things up a bit.

Only NDP will lock themselves out from this since their support base would be least interested in having such trade deals.

frizzlefry

10-04-2015, 04:11 PM

A country of our size really needs trade deals. We are not big enough to trade with ourselves. Being the odd man out would certainly harm us more than any potential impact to certain industries.

The details have yet to be even discussed and this agreement is a long ways off from actually being implemented. It's just broad stroke agreements at this point before negotiations continue. I doubt DMCA was even mentioned.

frizzlefry

10-04-2015, 05:22 PM

Oh, and they are not forcing member states to adopt USA DMCA.

Article (https://torrentfreak.com/tpp-u-s-may-accept-partners-own-isp-liability-frameworks-150707/)

It's a work in progress. Before its lambasted we should likely wait to see whats in it.

ZenOps

10-04-2015, 05:46 PM

I look at it like this:

If what we have been doing so far only puts eight varieties of the 100 different varieties of Cambells chunky soup on Canadian shelves - something is wrong.

rage2

10-04-2015, 09:56 PM

Allow good cheese to be imported. Check.

No tariffs on JDM cars. Check.

Strengthen our weak piracy and copyright laws. Check.

What's the problem? :dunno:

BigMass

10-04-2015, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Link? What is this even about?

fucking over free human beings? What else has Harper ever done but. I'm sure if he really could have his way he'd have the death penalty for anyone caught with a joint. I'm also pretty sure he'd have anyone strung up caught downloading Game of Thrones if he could. Oh, and if the USA had a big giant cock, I'm sure he'd love to gobble it all up from here to eternity. That would be heaven for him.

nzwasp

10-04-2015, 10:23 PM

This is the bit i dont like:

Adopt Criminal Sanctions: Adopt criminal sanctions for copyright infringement that is done without a commercial motivation. Users could be jailed or hit with debilitating fines over file sharing, and may have their property or domains seized even without a formal complaint from the copyright holder.

So my uncle is a tory MP in NZ who has been widely criticized for supporting the TPP and he defends the non transparency parts by saying that everyone will get to see the details before they vote it in. But who cares, it wont matter if we get to see it it will still pass if the govt in charge wants it too. They cant suddently opt out of this and that clause just because they decided it was a bad deal.

For my interest what are the downloading rules in the states. Do you still face massive unreasonable fines if caught downloading.

HiTempguy1

10-04-2015, 11:36 PM

Free trade isn't about free trade, its about free movement if capital. It does nothing but fuck us little guys over :dunno:

Being the odd man out does hurt us if everyone else agrees to play along. Its no different than big business forcing wages down by bringing in people out of country to do the work, but instead of having to do that, now the work will just happen elsewhere where the cost of living/standard of living is lower so they don't even have to bother having the money stay in Canada.

The funny thing is, at the end of the day, any trade agreement is just that, an agreement, and it can be nullified at any point. Trump (one thing I can agree with him on) says this exact same thing.

Unfortunately, the damage was already done with NAFTA, you can't retroactively go back and replenish the lost jobs and capital that has permanently left this country by changing the laws now. These agreements are truly a permanent change to our economy, even if they can be rescinded.

frizzlefry

10-04-2015, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by nzwasp
This is the bit i dont like:

Adopt Criminal Sanctions: Adopt criminal sanctions for copyright infringement that is done without a commercial motivation. Users could be jailed or hit with debilitating fines over file sharing, and may have their property or domains seized even without a formal complaint from the copyright holder.

So my uncle is a tory MP in NZ who has been widely criticized for supporting the TPP and he defends the non transparency parts by saying that everyone will get to see the details before they vote it in. But who cares, it wont matter if we get to see it it will still pass if the govt in charge wants it too. They cant suddently opt out of this and that clause just because they decided it was a bad deal.

For my interest what are the downloading rules in the states. Do you still face massive unreasonable fines if caught downloading.

As I previously posted, they are not doing that. The USA will not be able to enforce their DMCA when it contradicts with current laws. This was from a leak that came after the initial leak from USA documents that indicated they asked for that.

Keep in mind that everything we know about this has been leaked from early drafts, drafted by individual countries without consensus of other member nations. There is no secrecy here. There is no public consultation because there is nothing to consult people on. These meetings are simply to see if nations agree somewhat on preliminary broad strokes to determine if any further meetings have any point. The TPP is in it's infancy.

Harper isn't "ramming anything" as there is nothing to ram. The timetable was not set by him and there is nothing solid to consult anyone on because, as I said, this is in baby stages. Opting out would mean the TPP would still move forward without Canada. Want to kill jobs because that's how you kill jobs. Why trade with Canada when its cheaper to trade with nations who are part of the TPP?

The nations are simply engaging in meetings to agree to have more meetings. That's why it's so "secret". There is nothing to share. No other nations are consulting their people either because there is nothing concrete to debate or present for debate.

Mulcair on a dairy farm crying about poor farmers makes great campaigning fuel. Even though dairy is only 6% of Canada's farming and the rest of our farming community are massive exporters and really want TPP to happen. It's Mulcair being a politician trying to scare votes out of people. He buys Quebec, scares everyone else. Don't get me wrong, Harper does that fear shit too...although when its an economic fear campaign against the NDP he is likely right. Mulclair would fuck over 94% of our farmers to save 6% that he was on TV with. He's a parasite.

Liberals have said "lets look at it first, see what ends up on the table and look at it". Good idea.

frizzlefry

10-04-2015, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Free trade isn't about free trade, its about free movement if capital. It does nothing but fuck us little guys over :dunno:

The economist on TV (a prof at some university) would disagree. 1 in 5 jobs in Canada now are due to NAFTA. He actually stated that it is vital for small nations to be involved. He also admitted that some industries get fucked. You lose some jobs but gain more in other areas with these types of agreements.

It's a balancing act and of course unions would fight to keep their, say, 20000 jobs even though 50000 in different sectors would be created.

Dude said from a high level view Canada has gained from NAFTA. :dunno: Guy is a respected economics professor, never brought in politics except to say the NDP had no clue what they were talking about.

Toma

10-05-2015, 04:34 AM

A blatant and increased threat to our sovereignty, forced privatization of taxpayer held assets etc.

Secret trade deal that will cost us bad.

DICKtator supporters.

Toma

10-05-2015, 04:43 AM

"But with the Trans Pacific Partnership free trade agreement suddenly looming up smack in the middle of Election 2015, Harper is going to have to do something he hates doing — telling you more or less what he’s done.
But will he be honest?
“Oh God, no, never. This guy has done nine trade deals, seven of which have been implemented. Since then, we’ve gone from a $55 billion trade surplus in Canada to a $35 billion deficit.”
Those words belong to Jerry Dias, the president of Unifor, the largest public service union in Canada. Unifor has over 300,000 members, more than the number of Canadians who belong to all political parties in this country combined."

Toma

10-05-2015, 04:45 AM

If the rumours about the TPP prove to be true, namely, that dairy farmers and autoworkers are about to get shafted in the name of selling more beef and petrochemicals, Dias will be in the forefront of the mobilization against the deal.

For one thing, the union boss has reservations that it is even legal for the Harper government to agree in principle to such a momentous policy matter while parliament is dissolved. The Conservatives are only a caretaker government until the election is decided — even though they changed the convention on that very issue just before the writs were issued.

That’s one of the reasons that NDP leader Thomas Mulcair has publicly said he will not be bound by any announcement Harper may make on the TPP. Another reason is that Harper has offered neither Mulcair nor Liberal leader Justin Trudeau any briefings — customarily the very minimum courtesy in a writ period, or at least it was until now.

Toma

10-05-2015, 04:46 AM

nah, [redacted] dictator would never do anything illegal, or pass laws that violate our charter.

lol

Toma

10-05-2015, 04:49 AM

huh...

But for Dias, who believes Harper has presided over the deconstruction of manufacturing jobs in Canada for “ideological” reasons, there is the bitter memory of the South Korea trade deal as well.

“He lied his brains out on that one,” said Dias. “He said everything would be good for Canada’s auto sector. I thought that was the biggest joke of all. We sold no vehicles into that country. We still don’t.

“Then it got better. He said the deal would be good for beef farmers. When 19 cases of BSE were found in Alberta, the Koreans closed their market to our beef. The net result of that deal? A plus-eight increase in South Korean imports into Canada, and a minus-seven export of Canadian products to South Korea. Every trade deal he has done has been a disaster. He has wiped out the manufacturing sector, 450,000 lost jobs.”
So why in the middle of a tight election campaign would Harper try to land a free-trade deal that creates some very real, high-profile losers? Dias thinks it’s all personal politics. Harper wants a piece of paper to wave around in the final approach to voting day on October 19th — some form of documentary evidence that he is the master of economic issues.

But he also thinks Harper is thinking selfishly beyond the results of the October 19 vote.
“It is, I think, all about his legacy at this point,” said Dias. “He knows that he can’t win a majority in this election and that is the end of him. That’s why it doesn’t bother him that there will be a helluva political fallout from autoworkers and farmers when it comes out that he has betrayed them like he betrayed veterans.”

Dias also believes Harper will turn to a select few representatives of the auto-parts manufacturing association to hail the deal, a diversionary tactic that will turn the public’s attention from the real winners and losers of what may be coming down the pike to a pretend endorsement.

Toma

10-05-2015, 05:09 AM

PHD Economist, Robert Reich. Former Secretary of Labour under Clinton.

"why its the worst trade deal youve never heard of".

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=Z350tHA8Jo8&u=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3O_Sbbeqfdw%26feature%3Dshare

Xtrema

10-05-2015, 06:36 AM

Deal reached on TPP. 10 yrs in the making, more will be revealed this morning.

Sugarphreak

10-05-2015, 07:24 AM

...

ZenOps

10-05-2015, 07:24 AM

Bad-ish for the US maybe.

Canada? China would get a direct route for grain, we would get bigger HDTV's for cheaper.

Oil? We wouldn't have to sell it to the US, which then the US would sell to China.

Under free trade, the nation that is on top tends to lose. But then again, its pretty much inevitable that the globalists will take things over (no such thing as one of 196 nations, or 196 differently taxable regimes) In general though, all nations get raised up a bit. Under Donald Trump, they don't want "equality" for the world, because it means that the US has to play on an equal playing field (Each $100 owed means 1,000 pounds of delivered wheat, and Minecraft is very unlikely to be worth $2,500,000,000.00)

BTW: The mental image I have of Donald Trump is hovering over a sticky note labelled "Fired" covering the top of the big red button that launches nukes.

It will also make it tougher for traders to arbitrage.

Xtrema

10-05-2015, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
But yeah, I suppose it would be bad for skirting copyright and criminal laws... if you are into that kind of thing :dunno:[/i]

I'm more reserved about laws from other countries being sneaked into Canadian legal system through the backdoor as a trade deal than actual laws.

BTW ZenOps, China isn't part of this deal. There may be proxies countries (mainly Malaysia and Singapore) in the 12 nation block that can be a middle man but China won't benefit from this directly.

Vietnam, I guess I need to go over there before the old country totally disappears as it modernizes.

birdman86

10-05-2015, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by ZenOps
Oil? We wouldn't have to sell it to the US, which then the US would sell to China.

This is gonna show how ignorant I am, but why couldn't we just sell direct to China to begin with? Tariff's that the US doesn't face or something?

frizzlefry

10-05-2015, 11:41 AM

Ha ha! Head of the dairy farmers of Canada just expressed support for the TPP on TV. Said the compensation is fair, dairy farmers will have other opportunities such as pork and said that it is good for farmers and Canada.

This was just after Mulclair was on going on and on about 20000 dairy farmer jobs.

What an idiot.

killramos

10-05-2015, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by birdman86

This is gonna show how ignorant I am, but why couldn't we just sell direct to China to begin with?

There is the small problem of every smelly hippy and native band between us and our 3 oceans protesting any pipeline we attempt to build , expand, or reroute.

:rofl:

Do you read the news?

rage2

10-05-2015, 11:45 AM

So is this really a secret TPP trade deal, or did Toma just read about it yesterday?

ercchry

10-05-2015, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
This is going to be good for Canada overall. A lot of credit goes to the conservatives for such a massive economic deal.

Trades deals like this are going to bring a lot of new opportunities and job creation, plus reduce living costs for most Canadians at the same time.

But yeah, I suppose it would be bad for skirting copyright and criminal laws... if you are into that kind of thing :dunno:

Trump must be having a heart attack right now, this is like his worst nightmare come true! :rofl:

So what are the odds that we could have this thread renamed to something that isn't totally retarded... like "The Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Agreement"

So... you clean up on meg today or what? :rofl:

YCB

10-05-2015, 12:17 PM

sooo many secrets..

GbFvFzn8REo :hijack:

Sugarphreak

10-05-2015, 12:30 PM

...

killramos

10-05-2015, 12:51 PM

Such secret. Very Shush. Wow.
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000822867536/3f5a00acf72df93528b6bb7cd0a4fd0c.jpeg

phreezee

10-05-2015, 05:17 PM

Maybe now our dairy products won't be more than double the price as the U.S..

Toma

10-05-2015, 05:24 PM

20,000 Auto Jobs alone would be lost under "disasterous" deal.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/canadas-auto-industry-could-lose-20000-jobs-because-of-disastrous-tpp-trade-deal-union-says

Unknown303

10-05-2015, 05:26 PM

You should probably try to post whore your thread again like on page 1 there....

rx7_turbo2

10-05-2015, 05:42 PM

Seems likes a good deal all around. Credit goes to Harper once again! :clap:

ExtraSlow

10-05-2015, 06:25 PM

Price of parmiganio reggiano needs to come down. Therefore I support tpp and anything else that helps break the dairy cartel.

rage2

10-05-2015, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Toma
20,000 Auto Jobs alone would be lost under "disasterous" deal.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/canadas-auto-industry-could-lose-20000-jobs-because-of-disastrous-tpp-trade-deal-union-says
You said would, article says could. Big difference.

If they can't be competitive without protectionism then that's just the way the cookie crumbles. We're not competitive with $30 oil prices, lost a lot of jobs here. Same shit.

msommers

10-05-2015, 06:51 PM

Toma...lol

CompletelyNumb

10-05-2015, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Price of parmiganio reggiano needs to come down. Therefore I support tpp and anything else that helps break the dairy cartel.

:werd:

I like this new deal.

killramos

10-05-2015, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by msommers
Toma...lol

Something set him off this weekend. like he was saving them up to copypasta into beyond lol.

01RedDX

10-05-2015, 07:19 PM

JRSC00LUDE

10-05-2015, 07:32 PM

I'd like to know more about the real, verified drawbacks (if any), not just the fear mongering guesses of a profit driven business (what some refer to as a Union).

I see the article linked made a typo, I'll just correct it:

“There’s no possible way to paint this deal as benefitting the auto Union industry,” Stanford said in an interview.

revelations

10-05-2015, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by msommers
Toma...lol

Theres probably some emotional health issues going on..... thats just too much off the norm. :dunno:

Glad the ignore function works.

rage2

10-05-2015, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Canada's Dairy Cartel Isn't Going Anywhere Thanks to Trade Deal

The new Trans-Pacific Partnership lets Canadian dairy producers keep in place a complex system of trade barriers, price floors and supply controls.

https://news.vice.com/article/canadas-dairy-cartel-isnt-going-anywhere-thanks-to-trade-deal
Was just about to post this. The dairy cartel is ridiculous here. I was never a huge fan of cheese until my first trip to Europe. So much good shit for next to no money. You can import some of it in at a 10000x markup. Most Canadians don't know what they're missing.

googe

10-05-2015, 08:21 PM

yeah, TPP is definitely a shit deal for most.

Originally posted by rage2

Strengthen our weak piracy and copyright laws. Check.

What's the problem? :dunno:

really...? :rofl:

rage2

10-05-2015, 08:24 PM

Come on, leave my troll bait alone lol.

rx7_turbo2

10-05-2015, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by revelations
Theres probably some emotional health issues going on
Toma needs to unplug for awhile, a long while. Can you imagine if Harper wins? If I knew the guy personally I'd be pretty worried what he might do to himself or others. For a time I thought the posting reply after reply after reply to no one but himself was him just being a Troll. I now wonder if that type of behaviour isn't a sign of a much bigger "issue".

mazdavirgin

10-05-2015, 08:43 PM

My only concern on the dairy front is our far stricter rules around the use of hormones and steroids in dairy cattle AKA it's completely banned. I rather like being able to buy our milk without having to go out and try to buy some kind of organic bull shit milk like you have to do in the states. All that shit leaches into the milk and it's not really something you should be consuming in your cheese or in your milk.

Canadian milk, regardless of whether it is organic or conventional milk, undergoes strict milk quality production procedures and rigorous testing and to assure that you have the highest quality milk to enjoy.

If a dairy cow is being treated for an illness and is taking antibiotics, she is temporarily removed from the milk producing herd and her milk is discarded. Once she has recovered and the antibiotics have cleared her system, her milk is again suitable for human consumption. All milk is rigorously tested for antibiotics prior to it being accepted at the milk processing plant. If milk contains traces of antibiotics, the milk is dumped and the producer is penalized.

As we answered in Bea’s Question, growth hormones to stimulate milk production in dairy cows are not permitted for use in Canada. This means that no milk, cheese or yogurt produced in Canada contains these added hormones. As we explained in our answer to Nick’s question, rBST, short for recombinant bovine somatotropin, is a type of artificial growth hormone that increases milk production. It is illegal for use in our Canadian dairy cows, but legal in the USA. If you want to be certain that the dairy product you would like to enjoy does not contain rBST, just look for the 100% Canadian Milk logo with the blue cow.

We don't need that shit being shipped up to Canada IMHO the USA can keep their crap milk/cheese.

rage2

10-05-2015, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
All that shit leaches into the milk and it's not really something you should be consuming in your cheese or in your milk.
Source?

Because to me, it's all just marketing to justify the cartel.

frizzlefry

10-05-2015, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
My only concern on the dairy front is our far stricter rules around the use of hormones and steroids in dairy cattle AKA it's completely banned. I rather like being able to buy our milk without having to go out and try to buy some kind of organic bull shit milk like you have to do in the states. All that shit leaches into the milk and it's not really something you should be consuming in your cheese or in your milk.

We don't need that shit being shipped up to Canada IMHO the USA can keep their crap milk/cheese.

Let the free market decide what dairy they want and what they don't. Again, this is still up for debate for 2 years. If any imports violate our laws it likely won't come in. Same with DCMA. If what the doomsayers say is true than Harper would be tossing his party's own hotly debated bill C-32, that became law, down the toilet...that's not happening. Torrenters chill. Harper is an egomaniac, as Toma reminds us often, and would not shoot down his own damn law the PCs fought for eons to pass.

What I will say is that the unions have rubbed me the wrong way more than ever before. For most industries the TPP is awesome. But the Ontario auto unions are crying and want to save their petty 20k jobs over everyone else's. Assuming, of course, these auto workers are so incompetent that all they can do is auto assembly and not any other job the TPP will make.

I remember when this song was talking about heroin addiction...seems more appropriate to auto unions now. Sums up the NDP to a tee.

Gimme gimme gimme
I need some more
Gimme gimme gimme
Don't ask what for

Sitting here I'm a loaded gun
Waiting to go off
I've got nothing to do
But shoot my mouth off

Gimme gimme gimme
I need some more
Gimme gimme gimme
Don't ask what for
I know the world's got problems
I've got problems of my own
Not the kind that can't be solved
With an atom bomb

Gimme gimme gimme
I need some more
Gimme gimme gimme
Don't ask what for

Gimme Gimme Gimme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdCGrS74B-0)

dirtsniffer

10-05-2015, 10:22 PM

Can we protest this dairy shit like how everyone else protests pipelines?

Only seems fair.

mazdavirgin

10-05-2015, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by rage2

Source?

Because to me, it's all just marketing to justify the cartel.

Those practices are banned in Europe as well...

There's a ton of literature out there on the topic but like anything related to new additives you have research that falls on either side of the fence some showing increases in incidences of cancer/et al. others showing no difference. However it's been proven to cause issues for the cows themselves leading to the ban in Canada. So the verdicts out if it impacts human health but the verdict sure seems damning when it comes to the cows themselves.

The veterinary experts cited an increased risk of mastitis of up to 25%, of infertility by 18%, and of lameness by up to 50%. These increased risks and overall reduced body condition lead to a 20-25% increased risk of culling from the herd.

"The findings of the animal safety committee, when combined with our own assessment, made it quite clear that Health Canada had to reject the request for approval to use rbST in Canada, as it presents a sufficient and unacceptable threat to the safety of dairy cows," said Weiner. "The safety of both human and animal health are critical considerations when assessing a new veterinary drug," he explained.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080110050349/http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1999/1999_03_e.html

Again this is just one random drug of the myriads that are banned in Canada but allowed in the US. The bans are in place for a reason it's not big dairy pushing this but health Canada itself. I trust in health Canada far more than I trust in the FDA with all their lobbying down south.

Toma

10-05-2015, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by msommers
Toma...lol

Since you haven't figured it out yet.... I do that on purpose.

Research has conclusively shown that DICKtator supporters have low intelligence, and attention spans. So i try and break things up into short segments, so they appear less intimidating to 58% of beyond political section participants.

Toma

10-05-2015, 11:36 PM

For anyone else that is legit interested, and not just in blindly defending and making excuses....

Forced privatization, and giving away control over our natural resources is wrong imo.

we supposedly barely escaped being sued for $10.5 billion over water, but I suspect Harper hid it from us and paid out ... http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/u-s-firm-sues-canada-for-10-5-billion-over-water-1.180821

and another company out east is also persuing.. http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/6911412

"Free trades" Gross benefit is to mega corporations first, with a net benefit to lower cost producers with near slave wage rates.

But it hurts workers, and average Canadians, and as we saw, our trade drficit grows. Plus, I for one am not interested in Canadians competing with workers that make $2 a day.

01RedDX

10-05-2015, 11:37 PM

Toma

10-06-2015, 12:06 AM

Very few governments do things for the good of the majority anymore.

Similar deal, I think it was Romania, whos membership to EU was conditional on privarizations, and allowing Monsanto free reign over there.... crazy. The world is becoming a dictatorship, run by corporations and bankers, and CONservatives welcome our new overlords bent over with ass cheeks spread.

ickyflex

10-06-2015, 12:32 AM

When is Toma scheduled to see a doctor

Toma

10-06-2015, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by ickyflex
When is Toma scheduled to see a doctor

Cholesterol is a little high, but pretty healthy otherwise for an old guy.... chopped a cubic meter of wood this morning, got my exercise too!

dirtsniffer

10-06-2015, 06:11 AM

double post

dirtsniffer

10-06-2015, 06:23 AM

Is Halloween approaching? Are the kids in bed? Good. Don't tell them, but the big, hairy TPP monster — the ogre that would chew up the dairy farmers and slam the auto sector into reverse — isn't very scary after all.

For weeks, the apprehension has been spreading, fanned by fearful farmers driving their cows to Parliament Hill, that the Trans-Pacific Partnership would gut the dairy industry and wipe out 20,000 auto jobs.

A flood of foreign milk would drown the farmers, we were told. The auto parts companies would be buried in a pile of cheap Asian dashboards!

So, it was more than a little anticlimactic to see the reaction of these poor souls when the deal was announced, leaving them facing certain extinction.

Any last words? Actually, no.

Never mind the piles of press releases from business groups lauding the TPP as manna from heaven; those are expected. In any trade agreement, the benefits tend to be widely spread, while the pain is concentrated on particular sectors — and, generally, the latter can be counted on to squeal.

But consider, first, the statement from the Dairy Farmers of Canada. Ready?

Here goes: "We recognize that our government fought hard against other countries' demands, and have lessened the burden by announcing mitigation measures and what seems to be a fair compensation package, to minimize the impact on Canadian dairy farmers."

Hmm. Not exactly a cry of pain, is it?

Of course, the dairy farmers had feared a tide of foreign competition, possibly losing five to 10 per cent of their protected domestic market. Instead, foreign farmers will be allowed only 3.25 per cent of the Canadian market. And if that sounds too much, don't weep too bitterly, because Canada's farmers will be helping themselves to that "fair compensation package" for 15 years to come.

"Fair," meaning a cool $4.3 billion. Yes, that does seem, gulp, pretty fair.

But what about the doomed auto sector?

So the Great Dairy Disaster didn't happen. And, by now, you can tell what became of the Great Auto Apocalypse.

Sure enough, the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association issued a bleat of mild concern.

"These new reasonable terms," it murmured politely, "will have varying effects on Canada's automotive parts manufacturing. On one hand, prospects to supply vehicle assembly in foreign markets will open for large Canadian suppliers with multinational footprints and access to mobile capital. On the other hand, small and medium-sized suppliers to Canada's vehicle assembly supply chain will face new competitive pressure."

Yeah, sure, whatever. Apparently, the car guys are not about to march on Parliament Hill with pitchforks and flaming torches.

Instead, they say, "the 81,000 people employed in the Canadian automotive parts manufacturing sector are fairly evenly split between companies facing new opportunities and those facing new challenges."

So says Flavio Volpe, the president of the manufacturers' association. And, thanks a lot, Flavio — that'll make a really exciting headline.

2 weeks to go

So, what effect will these non-disasters have on the election campaign?

With two weeks to go, Conservative Leader Stephen Harper was ebullient — OK, ebullient by his standards — in applauding the agreement.

Canada could not afford to be left outside the agreement, he said.

"The gains are simply too significant to be missed."

For his part, Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau said he'd examine it, but emphasized the Liberals were always "pro-trade." Pressed to say if that meant he approved of the deal, Trudeau nearly said yes by emphasizing that his party was "resolutely and consistently pro-trade."

The odd man out was NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, who seemed much angrier about the effects on the dairy and auto sectors than the dairy and auto sectors.

Mulcair greeted the news as if it were, indeed, the catastrophe that was advertised. In the auto sector, he thundered, "Twenty thousand jobs will be lost!"

He went on, "While Justin Trudeau goes along with Stephen Harper's secret deal, selling out our auto workers and our farming families, I repeat again, I will not be bound by Stephen Harper's secret deals."

Cynics are saying that this just means Mulcair is now in "save the furniture" mode — meaning he knows his poll numbers are headed south and is trying to save what seats he can by rallying the left-wing base.

Another theory is that saying he won't be bound by the deal and saying he'll refuse to ratify it are two different things. If the election produces a minority Parliament, the TPP could become a bargaining chip. Perhaps Mulcair could relent, saying he never promised to rip it up?

If that's what he has in mind, though, he's got a long way to climb down. As it is, Mulcair is essentially telling voters that if they like free trade, they should vote for the other guys.

And, at this rate, maybe they will.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/topstories/canada-election-2015-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-auto-dairy-fears-milewski-1.3258048

Toma

10-06-2015, 09:16 AM

Another actual educated person, expresses his concerns....
http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2676674215/

JRSC00LUDE

10-06-2015, 09:39 AM

What? You mean actual educated people also have differing opinions on what it means, just like here? Shocking.

Know what else is shocking, the Sk. NDP came out.......wait for it.......IN FAVOUR of the deal. So are they Conservative shills in NDP clothing or, could there be something to it?

I bet Cam Broten has already been called on the carpet by Dear Leader Mulcair for daring to disagree with him. A power hungry, wanna-be dictator leader like him will tolerate no dissent after all.....

So loud is the pro-TPP clamour in Saskatchewan that the provincial NDP — whose federal counterpart won’t be bound by the deal — said through spokeswoman Erin Morrison that, “We think the TPP sounds promising for Saskatchewan, and we look forward to seeing the details.”

HiTempguy1

10-06-2015, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE

Know what else is shocking, the Sk. NDP came out.......wait for it.......IN FAVOUR of the deal. So are they Conservative shills in NDP clothing or, could there be something to it?

This kind of goes without saying, but the TPP largely favours the provinces who export stuff (IMO, from reading about it). Especially farmers and O&G. So I'm not surprised SK was for it.

I think it will help in killing off the auto sector, which sucks :(

killramos

10-06-2015, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1

I think it will help in killing off the auto sector, which sucks :(

Boo Fricken Hoo.

Adapt and Compete or die :rofl:

JRSC00LUDE

10-06-2015, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
This kind of goes without saying, but the TPP largely favours the provinces who export stuff (IMO, from reading about it). Especially farmers and O&G. So I'm not surprised SK was for it.

But how could the glorious people's party the NDP ever be in agreement with the nameless one and his policies, even at a Provincial level? The real question is what is that puppet premier over there saying about it? Has Notley taken a position or just done what she's told like a good little woman for dear Tom?

HiTempguy1

10-06-2015, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by killramos

Boo Fricken Hoo.

Adapt and Compete or die :rofl:

Just remember that when you're laid off Mr. Hotshot engineer :rofl: You should tell that to all the laid off people in the layoffs thread, that'll go well

;)

Its a big part of Canadian culture, especially out east, just a bit sad to see a once thriving industry leave, and mainly because we as Canadians have a higher standard of living than where the jobs are going to :dunno:

Toma

10-06-2015, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1

Just remember that when you're laid off Mr. Hotshot engineer :rofl: You should tell that to all the laid off people in the layoffs thread, that'll go well

;)

Its a big part of Canadian culture, especially out east, just a bit sad to see a once thriving industry leave, and mainly because we as Canadians have a higher standard of living than where the jobs are going to :dunno:

My grandma used a great line yesterday lol.

She said, "you dont have to look for stupid, it presents itself".

That guy will just blame the NDP lol

ickyflex

10-06-2015, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Toma

My grandma used a great line yesterday lol.

She said, "you dont have to look for stupid, it presents itself".

That guy will just blame the NDP lol

I think your grandma was talking about you.

I have another phrase "Stupid is usually in the post above you"

Oh look how timely

Edit: "And Below You"

Toma

10-06-2015, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by ickyflex

I have another phrase "Stupid is usually in the post above you"

Oh look how timely

:poosie:

msommers

10-06-2015, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Toma

Since you haven't figured it out yet.... I do that on purpose.

Research has conclusively shown that DICKtator supporters have low intelligence, and attention spans. So i try and break things up into short segments, so they appear less intimidating to 58% of beyond political section participants.

Yes that's really believable, Toma, that you use researched methods to post more effectively.

You really care about this community, wow! Who knew you were such a big softy :rofl:

killramos

10-06-2015, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1

Just remember that when you're laid off Mr. Hotshot engineer :rofl: You should tell that to all the laid off people in the layoffs thread, that'll go well

;)

Its a big part of Canadian culture, especially out east, just a bit sad to see a once thriving industry leave, and mainly because we as Canadians have a higher standard of living than where the jobs are going to :dunno:

You let me worry about where my next paycheck comes from and you agree to not try to take it away from me deal?

And yea what an incredible following Canadian made cars have :rolleyes:

People there are just as sad to see the unskilled labor gravy train go as Albertan oilfield workers. "culture". Thats a good one.:bullshit:

Toma

10-06-2015, 01:31 PM

DICKtator just pledged a billion dollars to the auto industry tor help with the impacts of the TPP.....

Toma

10-06-2015, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by msommers

Yes that's really believable, Toma, that you use researched methods to post more effectively.

You really care about this community, wow! Who knew you were such a big softy :rofl:

Yup, same reason I don't subscribe to the 'mega thread" theory of posting. It's all by design.

HiTempguy1

10-06-2015, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by killramos

You let me worry about where my next paycheck comes from and you agree to not try to take it away from me deal?

And yea what an incredible following Canadian made cars have :rolleyes:

Somedays, it amazes me how small minded and blinded you are for a person that (if I remember from your postings) has actually lived abroad. Goes to show the whole "lead a horse to water" deal.

I'd go so far as to say you are no better than the assholes in BC who go "shut down the oil sands period" without thinking how it affects others, especially those in the province who rely on it. Yes, "Canadian made cars" have an incredible following out east, its a big fucking deal you twat. Same with the parts manufacturing. Maybe grow up a bit and explore the world with your eyes open rather than running your mouth you shitstain. :thumbsdow

TPP isn't about taking or giving your money away... but if it costs a ton of jobs, it could go that way in the form of higher taxes

Toma

10-06-2015, 01:50 PM

he's dumber than a sack of hammers, and you tried.to reason with him. lol. mistake number 1. lol

JRSC00LUDE

10-06-2015, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Toma
DICKtator just pledged a billion dollars to the auto industry tor help with the impacts of the TPP.....

Sooooo......when a Socialist takes a massive amount of money from everyone to help a tiny percentage of the population it's ok.

Check.

When a Conservative makes a move (that's supported by the Liberals AND some Socialists) that benefits a large percentage and then takes some money from everyone to mitigate the impact of said greater good decision and help that "big picture" minority of the population that may be disadvantaged, it's an evil dictator move?

mmmmkay.

Originally posted by Toma
he's dumber than a sack of hammers, and you tried.to reason with him. lol. mistake number 1. lol

The majority of the forum says that about trying to reason with you too, so who's right? :dunno:

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
TPP isn't about taking or giving your money away... but if it costs a ton of jobs, it could go that way in the form of higher taxes

What IF it doesn't? What IF all those who cannot be competitive anymore end up just fine in the end and the majority becomes better for it? There's a lot of ifs....

Toma is spreading fear and cherry-picking sources that agree with his point of view. No one knows anywhere near enough about what's happening to rush to judgement, whether pro or con. Now that this "secret" deal is public and actually in, the details will come out. How about let's judge it then instead of being afraid of the shadows?

Toma

10-06-2015, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE

Sooooo......when a Socialist takes a massive amount of money from everyone to help a tiny percentage of the population it's ok.

Check.

When a Conservative makes a move (that's supported by the Liberals AND some Socialists) that benefits a large percentage and then takes some money from everyone to mitigate the impact of said greater good decision and help that "big picture" minority of the population that may be disadvantaged, it's an evil dictator move?

mmmmkay.

The majority of the forum says that about trying to reason with you too, so who's right? :dunno:

What IF it doesn't? What IF all those who cannot be competitive anymore end up just fine in the end and the majority becomes better for it? There's a lot of ifs....

The majority in the political section shouldn't be allowed.off a leash at a dog park. No one is worried about their google expert opinions.

killramos

10-06-2015, 01:59 PM

If you do not understand the difference between not enacting or repealing protectionist policies to keep a non viable industry running at the expense of the rest of the country versus shutting down a viable industry that helps fund the rest of the country just because you don't like it then I have nothing further to say to you.

This is nothing about actively trying to ruin Canadian manufacturing. And everything to do with Canadian manufacturing being a dinosaur that refuses to compete fair on a scale that includes the world economy. The only reason it has limped along as long as it has is the massive heavily-funded unions ( who ironically have been one of the biggest forces against our international competitiveness) have been lobbying to prop it up for decades.

No one wants anyone to lose their jobs, but industry protectionism is ridiculous.

I have seen what ridiculous protectionism can do to the populations of a country. Paying 4-5 times international MSRP for goods because of crazy import taxation schemes. Ultimately all it leads to is lack of international competitiveness, huge costs of modern goods, and even modern goods not even being allowed to enter the country as companies plain won't deal with you anymore.

Maybe you need to open your eyes at what protectionism really does to an economy in an age of world trade.

JRSC00LUDE

10-06-2015, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Toma

The majority in the political section shouldn't be allowed.off a leash at a dog park. No one is worried about their google expert opinions.

Judging by post count you are the majority of the political section FYI. You should use your brain for rationale and reason instead of fear and insults, you'd probably learn something along the way if you weren't so close minded. Saying everything the Conservatives do is wrong just because they did it is about as smart as saying it's dark out at high noon just because your eyes are closed. :zzz:

Toma

10-06-2015, 02:07 PM

killramos

10-06-2015, 02:15 PM

ooo burn. Are you going to ask if he is retarded next?

speaking of highschool, did your insults ever make it past junior high?

rx7_turbo2

10-06-2015, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE

Judging by post count you are the majority of the political section FYI. You should use your brain for rationale and reason instead of fear and insults, you'd probably learn something along the way if you weren't so close minded. Saying everything the Conservatives do is wrong just because they did it is about as smart as saying it's dark out at high noon just because your eyes are closed. :zzz:

Honest question. Why do you bother?

You know how this will go, he'll completely ignore what you post then insult you and take a shot at either Harper, the Conservatives or most likely both.

Over the years this forum has had a number of users kind of "loose it" in front of our eyes, James Stewart, Arash, Thales, I think it's pretty clear at this point Toma's behavior here is a manifestation of something bigger. I think it's likely there's some mental health issues going on. The obnoxious behavior, the fact the concept of his own massive hypocrisy seems to elude him. It's actually become pretty sad.

Toma

10-06-2015, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2

Honest question. Why do you bother?

You know how this will go, he'll completely ignore what you post then insult you and take a shot at either Harper, the Conservatives or most likely both.

Over the years this forum has had a number of users kind of "loose it" in front of our eyes, James Stewart, Arash, Thales, I think it's pretty clear at this point Toma's behavior here is a manifestation of something bigger. I think it's likely there's some mental health issues going on. The obnoxious behavior, the fact the concept of his own massive hypocrisy seem to elude him. It's actually become pretty sad.

ahem... alleged hypocrisy.

But carry on, google psychiatrists are just as entertaining as google economists, and scientists, and political scientists. lol.

Toma

10-06-2015, 05:25 PM

http://canadians.org/blog/tpp-profits-patients

The news yesterday that the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) negotiations have concluded is one that should worry Canadians, especially in regards to the relationship between intellectual property rights (IP) and pharmaceuticals (the text of the TPP includes 29 chapters, only five of which are about trade). Even the likes of Paul Krugman have changed their tune and stated, “this is not a trade agreement. It’s about intellectual property and dispute settlement; the big beneficiaries are likely to be pharma companies and firms that want to sue governments.” Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz recently added that, “you will hear much about the importance of the TPP for 'free trade.' The reality is that this is an agreement to manage its members’ trade and investment relations – and to do so on behalf of each country’s most powerful business lobbies. Make no mistake: It is evident from the main outstanding issues, over which negotiators are still haggling, that the TPP is not about “free” trade.”

In many ways this deal follows the same hollow rhetoric and predacious IP changes that we have seen in CETA; it is no exaggeration to say that these deals put corporate profits far ahead at the expense of patients wellbeing, regulatory independence, and sound public health policy (for a more in depth review of CETA and healthcare see more here). It should be highlighted that if you had to pick the biggest loser in the TPP (among many), it is likely patients and providers in developing countries. Doctors without borders has explained that the, “TPP will still go down in history as the worst trade agreement for access to medicines in developing countries, which will be forced to change their laws to incorporate abusive intellectual property protections for pharmaceutical companies.” For example, longer exclusivity periods for drugs and changes to current practices which include generic drugs will put a huge pressure on the budgets of many countries in the deal and significantly reduce access to life saving drugs. In Vietnam for example, the poorest country in the TPP, it is estimated that 45,000 people could stop getting drugs to fight HIV because of provisions that will boost the price of therapy (68 percent of Vietnam’s eligible HIV patients currently receive treatment, but post-TPP only 30 percent could retain access to antiretrovirals).

frizzlefry

10-06-2015, 09:28 PM

^^^ did ya google that?

kobe tai

10-06-2015, 09:34 PM

can someone give me coles notes? will i be busted for d/l pRon?

rage2

10-06-2015, 09:42 PM

Here's the latest Coles notes from CBC...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-election-2015-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-auto-dairy-fears-milewski-1.3258048

The odd man out was NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, who seemed much angrier about the effects on the dairy and auto sectors than the dairy and auto sectors.

Mulcair greeted the news as if it were, indeed, the catastrophe that was advertised. In the auto sector, he thundered, "Twenty thousand jobs will be lost!"

He went on, "While Justin Trudeau goes along with Stephen Harper's secret deal, selling out our auto workers and our farming families, I repeat again, I will not be bound by Stephen Harper's secret deals."
Replace Mulcair with Toma. :rofl:

Toma

10-07-2015, 03:00 AM

Here PHD/Nobel Economist, Joseph Stiglitz.

I know JRScool is smarter, but this guy is almost as good.

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=11405825&__lsa=7d62-4cd2

JRSC00LUDE

10-07-2015, 08:02 AM

You sure don't like people opposing your point of view hey? Poor fella.... That's OK, keep cherry picking opinions that support yourself, the rest of us will wait and reserve judgement for the FACTS. Of which you have reviewed none. ;)

If you possessed a shred of reading comprehension you'd see that once again I haven't made a position, because we don't know the facts (as your own article again mentions), I just question your continued rant against anything Harper does. You don't care about reality, you care about hating Harper. Real intellectual buddy. :zzz:

sY8dHlo2gk0

Unknown303

10-07-2015, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by rage2
Here's the latest Coles notes from CBC...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-election-2015-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-auto-dairy-fears-milewski-1.3258048

Replace Mulcair with Toma. :rofl:

At least we're just enabling whatever is going on with Toma now..:dunno:

Xtrema

10-07-2015, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by rage2
Here's the latest Coles notes from CBC...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-election-2015-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-auto-dairy-fears-milewski-1.3258048

Replace Mulcair with Toma. :rofl:

Mulcair came undone in the final furlong. At least Trudeau reserved judgement until he had analyze the deal.

Bloc need to come back and end the NDP. At least we know where they stand.

sputnik

10-07-2015, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by rage2
Here's the latest Coles notes from CBC...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-election-2015-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-auto-dairy-fears-milewski-1.3258048

Replace Mulcair with Toma. :rofl:

I have never before read anything from Terry Milewski that was so apologetic to Harper.

Mulcair must really be losing it when even the CBC is unable to defend his actions.

Xtrema

10-07-2015, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by sputnik
Mulcair must really be losing it when even the CBC is unable to defend his actions.

I think CBC is on Liberal's side. Not NDP.

phreezee

10-08-2015, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema

I think CBC is on Liberal's side. Not NDP.

CBC is ABC to get their funding. But now it seems CBC is trying to unite the left for strategic voting for the Liberals.

phreezee

10-08-2015, 02:29 PM

The Green Energy Act and the Liberals are what is killing the auto industry in Ontario.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/824051

Concerns expressed by Fiat Chrysler Automobiles CEO Sergio Marchionne over Ontario’s hydro costs have been echoed by Windsor Mayor Drew Dilkens.

On Friday at the Toronto Global Forum, Marchionne said the province needs to change the playing field for business.

“I think you need to create the conditions to be competitive,” Marchionne said after sitting beside Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne during the conference luncheon.

“We’re fully aware of the fact that this proposal on pensions and cap and trade and all this stuff … these are all things that add cost to the running of operations, they don’t come for free.”

Marchionne made some good points, Dilkens said Sunday.

“The comments made by Sergio Marchionne are consistent with what we’re hearing,” Dilkens said.

“It’s concerning. Because everything that puts us at a disadvantage, it’s concerning.”

Windsor and Essex County recently lost two bids for multibillion-dollar auto investments and thousands of new jobs after Volvo Cars and Jaguar Land Rover Ltd. opted to build assembly plants in lower-cost jurisdictions in the U.S.

“We need to be as a community, as a province, we need to be in a position of strength,” Dilkens said.

“All of these things really need to be thought through in our ability to attract investment.”

Marchionne said the situation needs to be rectified and Ontario needs to “benchmark these calculations of what you’re doing against what’s otherwise available outside Ontario.

“I think we had confirmation of the fact that the argument is not falling on deaf ears. If you had to ask me today, I would expect that sense would prevail,” Marchionne said.

Marchionne, who brought Fiat and Chrysler together at the height of the financial crisis, has been pushing for major auto mergers to help rein in the escalating cost of building vehicles.

He characterized his meeting with Wynne as cordial.

“The premier was incredibly responsive and willing to accept feedback from the industry,” Marchionne said.