Alberta TSA.....Philz, care to clarify?

[C_Dave45]

Alright all you search hounds...see if you can find the section or act that clarifies this situation:

Divided highway. Unmarked, connecting roadway between the two. When two opposing cars are each making a left turn, how do you proceed?

ie: For example, this intersection (McLeod and RR 220):

https://goo.gl/maps/NVn3vu2ZvQB2
*edit: Lets just print this streetview so there's no misunderstanding:

http://i59.tinypic.com/1zqv52c.jpg




How would you treat it? Like the right or the left diagram:

http://i62.tinypic.com/15rfdbs.jpg


*edit*
unofficial polling results are 9-4 for the "Right".

[86max]

Good question, I often use that intersection and always assume it's like the diagram on the right but I could be wrong.

[jwslam]

Left. Because of the potential for line-ups.
If you line up cars in the right diagram, nobody will be moving ever.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by 86max
Good question, I often use that intersection and always assume it's like the diagram on the right but I could be wrong.



Originally posted by jwslam
Left. Because of the potential for line-ups.
If you line up cars in the right diagram, nobody will be moving ever.

LOL...we should make a poll. BTW, I received an answer from CPS, albeit quite ambiguous, but I'm still trying to find a specific act that would clarify it.

As to jwslam's answer...so if you kept to the oncoming car's passenger side (left diagram) what would the cars that wanted to cross the highway from the east-west roads do? Move over to the left hand side of the connecting road, and then back to the right when entering on the other side??

[JustinMCS]

I would say left image - because when you turn left like that at a traffic light you don't go around the person opposite you. But I might be wrong.


Originally posted by C_Dave45

As to jwslam's answer...so if you kept to the oncoming car's passenger side (left diagram) what would the cars that wanted to cross the highway from the east-west roads do? Move over to the left hand side of the connecting road?

No, they would have to wait for the intersection to clear first.

[dirtsniffer]

Diagram on the right. Follows traffic pattern for people going straight across the highway and allows better visibility for drivers turning to see oncoming traffic.

[BlackArcher101]

Right, because it's the only way each car trying to turn has proper visibility. Otherwise with the left, the cars turning will block each other from seeing traffic leading to a very dangerous game of guess if it's clear.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by JustinMCS
I would say left image - because when you turn left like that at a traffic light you don't go around the person opposite you. But I might be wrong.



No, they would have to wait for the intersection to clear first. So what if a crossing car was already in that connecting roadway? Where does he sit? Left side or right side? What do the two opposing left-turn drivers then do? Wait? Whoever gets there first determines what side of the road you should be on?? :nut:

This isn't a city street, remember...take a look at the google street view. This is highway in rural areas.

[max_boost]

Left. That's how I turn at every intersection. What am I missing here???:nut: :dunno:

[jwslam]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
As to jwslam's answer...so if you kept to the oncoming car's passenger side (left diagram) what would the cars that wanted to cross the highway from the east-west roads do? Move over to the left hand side of the connecting road, and then back to the right when entering on the other side??
Well they shouldn't be going through the intersection while you're turning anyways! They're waiting at a stop sign...

edit: I see justin got my back

[drtoohotty1]

I see this everyday as I pass by on 1A from Cochrane to Calgary, majority of the time I see people following the diagram on the right

[snowcat]

Ban intersections.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by max_boost
Left. That's how I turn at every intersection. What am I missing here???:nut: :dunno:
Even rural ones like at McLeod and RR220?

What happens when there is already cross traffic in that connecting roadway? Then you switch to keep on the RIGHT hand side?

It's either treated as a roadway, or it's not. You can't switch it up according to who's there first!!

Same intersection:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2igdeds.jpg

[max_boost]

^^^

Well in that case I play it by year.

[94boosted]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101
Right, because it's the only way each car trying to turn has proper visibility. Otherwise with the left, the cars turning will block each other from seeing traffic leading to a very dangerous game of guess if it's clear.

:werd:

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by max_boost
^^^

Well in that case I play it by year. ROFL :rofl:

[revelations]

Left - would appear suitable for ONE WAY traffic ony

Right - we drive on the right hand side of traffic. If someone was going STRAIGHT THROUGH they would stick to the right as well. :dunno:

[Skrilla]

I run into this every day coming off the transcanada. I always use left diagram :dunno:

[C_Dave45]

This is all I've gotten from CPS so far:


@CalgaryPolice Two opposing cars turning left, divided hiway how do they proceed? Like this: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/905/3fTqj0.jpg …


Calgary Police ‏@CalgaryPolice Oct 25
@TileguyDave Yes that is correct.



@CalgaryPolice ....Or like this: http://i.imgur.com/rT7y45P.png


@CalgaryPolice What would happen then here: https://goo.gl/maps/pHHgsDs53Nt …
Car crossing highway, if in the intersection would be facing oncoming.



Calgary Police ‏@CalgaryPolice Oct 25
@TileguyDave A highway would differ from an urban area. The section in between directions of travel should be treated as its own roadway.

Still haven't seen anything from the TSA pertaining to such though.

[JaffX]

The one on the right makes the most sense, but if no one's around I do the one on the left lol

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Skrilla
I run into this every day coming off the transcanada. I always use left diagram :dunno:

LOL....Wow, I had no idea this was such a complicated thing. No wonder we have so many accidents at intersections.

So far it's 7-4 for the "Right". (FTR, I've always treated it like a roadway. So the "right" diagram)

Mods...can we add a poll??!

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Diagram on the right. Follows traffic pattern for people going straight across the highway and allows better visibility for drivers turning to see oncoming traffic.

I agree, it seems a bit counterintuitive compared to a signalled urban intersection but this is how I always treat them.

[pheoxs]

Technically the one on the right, although typically people do the one on the left (and its what I'd do if there isn't a queue already formed doing one of the other)

The one of the right is proper because if I'm waiting to turn left, and then someone crosses the road from the east to be queued behind me, it'd screw things up and they'd have to cross over infront of an oncoming car.

[Skrilla]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


LOL....Wow, I had no idea this was such a complicated thing. No wonder we have so many accidents at intersections.

So far it's 7-4 for the "Right". (FTR, I've always treated it like a roadway. So the "right" diagram)

Mods...can we add a poll??!

I get the right diagram, but I have never seen it done in practice. Just asked guys in the office, 2 said left 5 said right, but they all agreed left if no one is there.

[Zorac]

left, they are designed for turning radii of large vehicles. unless there is a center line (because the distance between the north and south bound lanes is great enough), then its right. Alberta Transportation Highway Geometric Design Guidelines is the reference your looking for. bullet nose vs flat nose medians in the section for intersections. also look at design templates for turns, same section.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zorac
left, they are designed for turning radii of large vehicles. unless there is a center line (because the distance between the north and south bound lanes is great enough), then its right. Alberta Transportation Highway Geometric Design Guidelines is the reference your looking for. bullet nose vs flat nose medians in the section for intersections. also look at design templates for turns, same section.
Might want to tell CPS then. They disagree.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


LOL....Wow, I had no idea this was such a complicated thing. No wonder we have so many accidents at intersections.


So many accidents...in that type of intersection though? lol


Originally posted by Skrilla


Just asked guys in the office, 2 said left 5 said right, but they all agreed left if no one is there.

:werd:

Left if no one there. Right if someone there. Anything else is asking for it.

[revelations]

They should just paint lines on them.

Look at the connecting roads btwn EB and WB 22x by Bridlewood and you can see the idea. Its not a turn lane but an actual road.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by max_boost


So many accidents...in that type of intersection though? lol



:werd:

Left if no one there. Right if someone there. Anything else is asking for it.
Yeah, who knows lol. I know I've entered them a few times, and myself and the other driver kinda look at each other with wide eyes, do the "Icky shuffle" and then both pass each other on the right. I do know though, that those crossings are deadly, but not necessarily because of what we're discussing here. And yet mayyyybe they are!!!

[firebane]

Left diagram never right. If traffic has to come across then they can yield to all traffic since they are going to be crossing 2 or more lanes of traffic anyways.

[JustinMCS]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

Might want to tell CPS then. They disagree.

If it's outside of city limits, send your question to the RCMP. Maybe they will know, because these are outside of CPS patrol.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by firebane
Left diagram never right. If traffic has to come across then they can yield to all traffic since they are going to be crossing 2 or more lanes of traffic anyways.
So what does a North-south car do here then?
Wait? Join in? The procedure changes?


http://i59.tinypic.com/2igdeds.jpg

[rx7boi]

I do the left diagram if the intersection is small.

Feels weird to be making a turn "around" the opposing car.

Seems to make sense to make the left turn like I would at a flashing green light.

But as per Dave's picture above, I can see why people would "loop around" the opposing cars.

Like others have said...if you visualize a line in that intersection, then it becomes alot more clear.

[Unknown303]

Look at 22x and 37th. They've made it pretty clear what you're supposed to do there.

[JustinMCS]

Originally posted by Unknown303
Look at 22x and 37th. They've made it pretty clear what you're supposed to do there.

That's not the same. That has a large enough centre median that they have road markings and enough for 5-8 cars to line up.

[03ozwhip]

Like others said, right if someone's coming, left if no one is there. I don't understand the other train of thought. I treat it as a 2 way and in that case, you need to be on the right.

[Unknown303]

Why not just treat it like a two way all the time.

[dubhead]

I grew up on an acreage east of town and this was a daily occurrence for me for nearly a decade of driving. I was always taught that the right diagram is correct due to improved visibility of on coming traffic... However in practice you just have to feel the other side out and most choose the one on the left.

[16hypen3sp]

It's an unmarked section of roadway. There is ample room for a single file line of traffic to move in both directions. Lanes still exist regardless if they are marked or not. Says so right in the TSA.

So, in conclusion, we drive on the right and are expected to be on the right of oncoming traffic.

Pic on the right is correct.

[spikerS]

I do the one on the left...

Every intersection in the city that has advance green arrows for left turns, you always do the left diagram...If you do the right, even in a rural setting, you can cause a traffic jam if there are multiple people in each direction trying to turn left.

[SOAB]

I have always done it like the diagram on the right. it gives me better visibility and allows me to drive straight into my correct lane instead of facing opposing traffic and changing lanes when crossing the highway.

I've always treated it like a small street in between 2 avenues. you still need to be on the right side of the road.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by Zorac
left, they are designed for turning radii of large vehicles. unless there is a center line (because the distance between the north and south bound lanes is great enough), then its right. Alberta Transportation Highway Geometric Design Guidelines is the reference your looking for. bullet nose vs flat nose medians in the section for intersections. also look at design templates for turns, same section.


Foreward page of that document says:


It is neither intended as, nor does it establish, a legal standard for these functions.

So it's not law.

Foreward page is here: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/951.htm

[C_Dave45]

So far I count 14-8 in favour of the Right. Plus a 5-2 decision for the right from Skrilla's office poll.

[C_Dave45]

Cool...just got a call from RCMP Edmonton.

"Always, ALWAYS drivers door to drivers door. Treat all roads and intersections as you would a roadway".

Now...having said that he admitted, "probably a lot of people will treat it like a normal intersection and go passenger-passenger, and if you are in that situation, and can see the other driving heading that way...then common sense dictates to make the turn safely".

If there were ever an accident by going passenger-to-passenger, then there is not an actual section of the Act that would apply, but the charges would be "failed to make left turn safely" or "driving in an unsafe manor".

So both CPS and RCMP say "Right". :clap:

[dirtsniffer]

:thumbsup:

[4WARNED]

I can solve this specific intersection.....there's lights there now lol

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Cool...just got a call from RCMP Edmonton.

"Always, ALWAYS drivers door to drivers door. Treat all roads and intersections as you would a roadway".

Now...having said that he admitted, "probably a lot of people will treat it like a normal intersection and go passenger-passenger, and if you are in that situation, and can see the other driving heading that way...then common sense dictates to make the turn safely".

If there were ever an accident by going passenger-to-passenger, then there is not an actual section of the Act that would apply, but the charges would be "failed to make left turn safely" or "driving in an unsafe manor".

So both CPS and RCMP say "Right". :clap:

But....if you get into an accident doing driver-driver, you'd still get slapped with a "failure to make left turn safely" or "driving in unsafe manner." :rofl:

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by max_boost
^^^

Well in that case I play it by year.

2015 and odd years: left
2016 and even years: right

[sexualbanana]

Left doesn't even make sense, as I think some have pointed out. Anyone going straight across the divided highway now has to cut to the left and then back to the right. The closest parallel I can think of would be separate parkade entrances (ie James Short), and even then there aren't intersecting paths of traffic.

[Kloubek]

I would do the one on the right. If you're treating it as an extension of the side road (which makes sense), then you'd be responsible for being on the right side.

Recipe for an accident if I've ever saw one....

[firebane]

No matter the "correct" way in all honesty you would be having to rely on the other drive to know the correct way which obviously from this thread people don't.

Also it would feel too damn weird to go driver to driver when making these turns and feel absolutely unnatural when driving.

[HuMz]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
Left doesn't even make sense, as I think some have pointed out. Anyone going straight across the divided highway now has to cut to the left and then back to the right. The closest parallel I can think of would be separate parkade entrances (ie James Short), and even then there aren't intersecting paths of traffic.

Exactly, this is why the left picture is wrong.

[theken]

so when you are making a left turn you would drive in to oncoming traffic?

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by firebane
No matter the "correct" way in all honesty you would be having to rely on the other drive to know the correct way which obviously from this thread people don't.


It actually kinda scares me that so many people are saying they do left.

[firebane]

Originally posted by sexualbanana


It actually kinda scares me that so many people are saying they do left.

Perhaps its a generational thing? I've been driving since I've been 16 years old and have 20 years of driving under me and it was what I was taught.

It is also a situation I very VERY seldomly ever been in.

[msommers]

I'd go right as well. Just seems normal to be on that side of other cars.

A line up at a turn like that means you pull into the shoulder and not block the intersection? Seems weird there would be a line there anyways but that's what I'd do :dunno:

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by firebane


Perhaps its a generational thing? I've been driving since I've been 16 years old and have 20 years of driving under me and it was what I was taught.

It is also a situation I very VERY seldomly ever been in.
I don't see that as an excuse. I've been driving for 36 years. I run into that situation quite a bit when doing rural jobs. Have always treated it like an extended roadway and kept to the right.


Originally posted by sexualbanana


It actually kinda scares me that so many people are saying they do left. That's what surprised me. I didn't even think it was a question about how to handle it.

[firebane]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

I don't see that as an excuse. I've been driving for 36 years. I run into that situation quite a bit when doing rural jobs. Have always treated it like an extended roadway and kept to the right.

That's what surprised me. I didn't even think it was a question about how to handle it.

I am not saying it's an excuse but it simply goes on the thought if people have never experienced it or shown the right way then how is one to know?

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by Kloubek
I would do the one on the right. If you're treating it as an extension of the side road (which makes sense), then you'd be responsible for being on the right side.

Recipe for an accident if I've ever saw one....

And over the next decade, central AB is going to be seeing a lot of these intersections popping up with all the planned twinning projects.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by firebane


I am not saying it's an excuse but it simply goes on the thought if people have never experienced it or shown the right way then how is one to know?

Because staying on the right side of the road is one of those rules that basically supercedes all other rules, isn't it? When in doubt, stay right.

At least it should be.