Electrical question

[LUDELVR]

Just seeing if this would work well or result in an electrical short circuit or something. I have a set of led undercabinet lights that comes with 4 puck style lights and they all connect to a little distribution block and then a single wire that runs to a toggle switch and then to the main plug that goes to the wall.

I added another exact same set of 4 lights by cutting the main plug and splicing it to the original plug (power to power, negative to negative) and they all light up off of the one switch and I haven't noticed anything wrong...yet.

I'm now wondering if I can do the same thing with 2 more sets (of4 puck lights each-8 more lights in total) and run all 16 led lights off of the one main plug.

Not sure if this makes sense but would all electrical gurus chime in please?

[Cos]

.

[Crazyjoker77]

Its all based on power (wattage) which you haven't stated.

The main cord that you spiced into will be fine it will be good for at least 1000watts which is a lot of LED's.

I think what your calling a distribution block is actually a power supply or possibly a driver. (takes the 120v AC from the wall and turns it into 10-30v dc that the LED's require)

If the other 4 pucks come with there own power supply/driver you can parallel (the name for how you wired) many units to one cord.

Feel free to copy the elect specs off the driver/ballast box and ill tell you exactly how many you can run.

[revelations]

Definitely need to know if LED or not. If LED, then that shouldnt be an issue - I know from experience that the old Halogen lights were huge energy consumers.

[Cos]

.

[LUDELVR]

Sorry lads! Totally forgot to put the specs of the lights.

Here's a link to them:

http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=291505617202&category=116880&pm=1&ds=0&t=1446173491358

They are eBay led lights from Hong Kong and are low consumption. Have a look and tell me if I can hook 4 sets of 4 to the one main wall plug. I just want to have one switch plus, I want to shorten some of the wires.

[HuMz]

You won't have any issues with it tripping from overload. However this would be considered an illegal installation. You aren't allowed to change the design from the manufacturer by cutting in a splice into that type of power cable. A proper splice in power cable needs to be in an approved enclosure as well as have a bonding means (something that chinese cable doesn't have). A proper setup must also feature an approved class 2 transformer, which I doubt that one there is. I would also bet that you would have issues if the power cable were stapled as a means of support given that it's considerable a non-permanent setup, and must be movable.

Here's one I did a while back, ideally you want your class 2 transformer AC/DC cord to plug right into an receptacle, instead of having the short jumper into a female plug like I did. It was done for aesthetics so that the cord that plugged in wasn't visible hanging down from other parts of the kitchen.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fqKpfZhs4wQ/VjL1-lS_V7I/AAAAAAAAHSQ/GpLb1QpePEA/w433-h577-no/2015%2B-%2B1

[mazdavirgin]

Probably not a good idea for a few reasons.

You are in all likelihood already overloading the power supply which is either going to overheat and burn out or potentially light itself on fire. That power supply is not adequately designed if it hasn't already tripped itself off since your additional strands would put the current draw above the max rated supply power... So sure you can do what you just did but the addition of the second set of lights is already over capacity so it's a matter of time before the power supply fries and hopefully does not catch on fire.

[HuMz]

Good catch I just read the link to the eBay site and the power supply is only rated for 500mA which will only cover 4 of those lights at 80mA a piece.

[LUDELVR]

So would there be a way I could run 4 sets of these lights off of one switch as well as shortening the wires? I'm trying to put these lights into two separate curio cases that have 8 selves in each case. Could I get a different main plug with a higher power rating to accommodate all 4 sets instead of using the factory one?

[Cos]

.

[HuMz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LUDELVR
So would there be a way I could run 4 sets of these lights off of one switch as well as shortening the wires? I'm trying to put these lights into two separate curio cases that have 8 selves in each case. Could I get a different main plug with a higher power rating to accommodate all 4 sets instead of using the factory one? [/QUOTE

Theoretically this could work as long as the switch could handle the 1.28 amps of the whole system (16 lights), chances are the switch will be rated the same as the power supply though at 0.5amps. It would still be considered illegal because of the reasons I listed above. The switch is still on the 120v hot side that you would be splicing into.

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Cos


What about an extension cord with a 4-1 set up and a bunch of zip ties? Not exactly sure the setup but that would work if you have the space to leave the extra length.

So here's the setup: shelves (https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152824106870180&id=528475179&set=a.10152435000210180.1073741860.528475179&source=43)

I have wired the 2 sets as I described for one shelf and it lights up but I have only run them for short periods of time and the only splicing I did was cut the one wall plug and spliced it inline with the other so I'm only using one plug.

My other concer is that I also want to add detachable plugs on the wires where so I can take the shelves off if I have to move. That way I can just detach the plug and take the shelf off without having to take out all the wires going up the sides. I do want to shorten the wires too because I tried just zip tying and bunching them away but it's a bit messy and looks like a bird's nest!

[Cos]

.

[HuMz]

Originally posted by Cos


What about an extension cord with a 4-1 set up and a bunch of zip ties? Not exactly sure the setup but that would work if you have the space to leave the extra length.

Most people don't realize that even running an extension cord to a fixed light or device (ex. Freezer) in a house is illegal by code.

At the end of the day homeowners can do what they want for splicing into electrical cord wire, and as long as they trust their own work they don't need to worry . It's when that power supply melts causing a fire, or the splice in the hot wire sparks against the wooden cabinet that the insurance company will run away.

[Cos]

.

[Crazyjoker77]

The proper way for what you want would be to order a 2A 12v power supply such as

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-LED-Strip-Power-Supply-2A-3A-5A-8A-AMP-Transformer-Driver-DC-12-Volt-96W-60W-/181472375899?var=&hash=item2a4098b45b:m:m-yV4S7qse_vt6kzalZAeHg

Then off the output of the power supply run to a switch such as

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6A-250V-Lnline-ON-OFF-Table-Lamp-Desk-Light-Cord-Control-Switch-Black-/381448500244?hash=item58d01a3414:g:n2oAAOSw37tWBC0g

then out of the switch use a bunch of JST connectors (female on the power supply side)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pairs-100mm-JST-Connector-Plug-Cable-Line-Male-Female-for-RC-BEC-Lipo-Battery-/301743874937?hash=item4641562379:g:qPIAAOxyVLNS-N0B

then cut off the connector on the light and replace with the male JST. (soldered and shrink wrapped)

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Cos
Looking more at the setup, if it were me, if you can't do what I suggested above, I would find a power supply on ebay that meets your needs (voltage, and enough power to run multiple light strings) then just cut the small 2-wires at the end where the plug is and run them all to your new P/S.

Would be a lot simpler and safer. That way you can 'hide' the box somewhere easy as well.

Edit: the attached power supply is only good for 500mA and each light is shown to draw 80mA, meaning that you can run 6 lights safely without overloading the P/S. Since I imagine you already have 8 lights, technically the system is already overloaded and would be degrading the parts inside the P/S.

A P/S that could handle the load would be something like this. (16 lights @ 80mA = 1200mA minimum)

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Transformer-Power-Converter-Supply-110-120V-to-AC-12V-For-Swimming-Pool-light-/301641618401?hash=item463b3dd3e1:g:Y-wAAOSw~OdVX0Uc

You could then get a junction box to do the terminations safely, something like this.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/PV-Solar-Junction-Box-for-80-110W-Crystalline-Silicon-PV-Modules-3rails-DC-1000V-/330721840054?hash=item4d008ecbb6:m:mG7dNjcwtLENKNj0Pi5uq4g

(To be fair I picked the first things off ebay, there may be better choices).

This is what I'm starting to think makes sense. So I essentially get a power source that plugs into the wall that can handle 16 lights (1200 +mA) and then run that single wire into a toggle switch and then split it off into the 4 sets of lights (that have 4 lights in each set). Could I reuse the toggle switch that came with the lights or is this regulated to a lower power limit as well? I think this is the same idea that Crazyjoker is saying too, no?

Excuse the crude diagram:
PS = Power Supply into wall
TS = Toggle Switch
S = Splitter
L = Light

PS------TS-----
|
|
|
/ | | \
/ | | \
S S S S
|||| |||| |||| ||||
LLLL LLLL LLLL LLLL

[Cos]

.

[Unknown303]

Depending on the power supply the power switch input could be independent of the output so you could run a remote switch that wouldn't have to carry the current rating of the combined led lights.

[Cos]

.

[Unknown303]

Just found this beast.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/321902912718?_mwBanner=1

And you'd just have to put something like this in front

driver (http://m.ebay.com/itm/201238616689?_mwBanner=1)

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Unknown303
Just found this beast.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/321902912718?_mwBanner=1

And you'd just have to put something like this in front

driver (http://m.ebay.com/itm/201238616689?_mwBanner=1)

Man... This is why eBay electronics is so sketch. That second device IF it was tested properly is not meant to be submerged. It's only tested for 30 mins at a depth of 1m and it is not meant to be constantly in that environment. The fact it's a 120V supply is so sketch... That's a great way to get yourself killed.

Now since half this crap is coming out of China where they stamp fake UL/CSA/CE stamps on the devices you have no idea that shit isn't going to burn down your house or if it was even tested. I would not personally be buying and installing anything from overseas in my house. If you want to do something like this properly buy real legit components from someplace local that has actual certifications/testing behind them.

It's really not worth burning down your house to save 10$.

[Cos]

.

[Unknown303]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


Man... This is why eBay electronics is so sketch. That second device IF it was tested properly is not meant to be submerged. It's only tested for 30 mins at a depth of 1m and it is not meant to be constantly in that environment. The fact it's a 120V supply is so sketch... That's a great way to get yourself killed.

Now since half this crap is coming out of China where they stamp fake UL/CSA/CE stamps on the devices you have no idea that shit isn't going to burn down your house or if it was even tested. I would not personally be buying and installing anything from overseas in my house. If you want to do something like this properly buy real legit components from someplace local that has actual certifications/testing behind them.

It's really not worth burning down your house to save 10$.

With proper terminations on the connectors the second one could definitely be submerged by the looks of it. You do know everything is made it China right? Even all the 120v industrial equipment I used to test that was ip67 or better rated to be Intrinsic safe. And you better pray that equipment is when installed in potentially gas filled environments.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Unknown303


With proper terminations on the connectors the second one could definitely be submerged by the looks of it. You do know everything is made it China right? Even all the 120v industrial equipment I used to test that was ip67 or better rated to be Intrinsic safe. And you better pray that equipment is when installed in potentially gas filled environments.

IP68 is for continuous submersion and only up to 3M, IP67 is not appropriate for those applications and that has no bearing on intrinsic safety. There's a difference between made in China by a company that ships legit to the US and knock off electronics where they stamp random certifications on the components.

Like I said it's up to you guys but this is the type of shit I do every day and I do not buy anything from non legit sources because there is no paper work proving these tests were even performed. Anyone can write anything on their electronics you just have to not get caught or ship them in via back channels like eBay.

[Cos]

.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Cos
Why are we talking about water proofing? Isn't this for cabinet under lighting? And we're also talking about a total of 1.2A. About the same as a phone charger. To me the only risk is on the transformation and 120V side of the system.

Because it's a good example of potentially wiring something up that could kill you because you bought some random component off of eBay and installed it in a submerged application.

http://www.active123.com/RPR1202A0P5-ACDC-Adapter-12VDC-2A-Prodview.html

Here's a power supply that fits the bill is sourced from a legit vendor and will come with the proper paperwork.

[rx7_turbo2]

Who knew under counter led lighting could be so complicated. :poosie:

[Nufy]

Should consult these guys...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bUlG_hqzEP0/TSkNo8qDN_I/AAAAAAAAKhI/DJwpDtOeB48/s640/Screen+shot+2011-01-08+at+8.18.21+PM.png

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Cos
Looking more at the setup, if it were me, if you can't do what I suggested above, I would find a power supply on ebay that meets your needs (voltage, and enough power to run multiple light strings) then just cut the small 2-wires at the end where the plug is and run them all to your new P/S.

Would be a lot simpler and safer. That way you can 'hide' the box somewhere easy as well.

Edit: the attached power supply is only good for 500mA and each light is shown to draw 80mA, meaning that you can run 6 lights safely without overloading the P/S. Since I imagine you already have 8 lights, technically the system is already overloaded and would be degrading the parts inside the P/S.

A P/S that could handle the load would be something like this. (16 lights @ 80mA = 1200mA minimum)

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Transformer-Power-Converter-Supply-110-120V-to-AC-12V-For-Swimming-Pool-light-/301641618401?hash=item463b3dd3e1:g:Y-wAAOSw~OdVX0Uc

You could then get a junction box to do the terminations safely, something like this.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/PV-Solar-Junction-Box-for-80-110W-Crystalline-Silicon-PV-Modules-3rails-DC-1000V-/330721840054?hash=item4d008ecbb6:m:mG7dNjcwtLENKNj0Pi5uq4g

(To be fair I picked the first things off ebay, there may be better choices).

So I am now looking at just getting a power source and I just need to ensure that it is at least 1200 mA or a 2A would do, correct?

I ordered a few switches and those male and female connectors that I plan on using for each shelf in case I have to move the cases and am now just seeing what power source I should buy.

Theoretically, if I have an electronic device kicking around home that has the same power ratings, could I just use that and splice into that? :dunno:

[Cos]

.

[Crazyjoker77]

Originally posted by LUDELVR


So I am now looking at just getting a power source and I just need to ensure that it is at least 1200 mA or a 2A would do, correct?

I ordered a few switches and those male and female connectors that I plan on using for each shelf in case I have to move the cases and am now just seeing what power source I should buy.

Theoretically, if I have an electronic device kicking around home that has the same power ratings, could I just use that and splice into that? :dunno:


1200mA would not be recommended... 16@80mA = 1280mA and its good practice to never run a contiunous load over 80% of the supplies rated capacity. (it will work but shorten the life span) so really you should be looking at

1280/.8= 1600 or 1.6A @12v which actually is a pretty common supply for electronics.

As long as the input says 120v @60hz and output at 12vdc @>1.6A you can use it.

I do a ridicoulous amount of electronics work and have shorted out many power supplies which will either trip the protection on the power supply or simply fry the components and it quits working. I've never had one burst into flames like everyone is making it seem to be. A juntion box is really not needed if your only splicing on the low voltage side of the PS BUT i do agree to that the quality of your splice is very important!

[Cos]

.

[Crazyjoker77]

Originally posted by Cos


just leave the box 1-2" to a male or female end. Then splice in the other end to the light.


Not sure why your telling him to go to either a male OR female end. Its pretty established (and in most cases in higher voltages code)that line side is always female and load is always male...

[Cos]

.

[Crazyjoker77]

Originally posted by Cos


Honestly I said either/or because I didn't really know and wasn't going to look it up. I do find it funny how particular we are getting in this thread. Hahaha. I mean really he bought some LED lights of eBay and is trying to do the right thing. We're probably making some cabinet lighting WAY more complicated then it needs to be.

To me my low voltage is 600v and below. I work 7.2kV - 69kV. Other people in here work 69kV+. Only reason I even really worked on 12V cct's was in school both in theory or lab or when I do car work.

and I've never seen a P/S give out and light on fire either, although my experience limited, I've always just 'let the smoke out' and that smell.


I work with 13.8 and 25.5kv systems everyday. I'm sure weve dealt with each other before professionally9you work for fortis right). Somehow I also managed to end up consulting and testing for Cree and I custom build high end flashlights and prototyping electronics.

Just for clarification this is a female JST (attached to the power supply)
http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/catalog/images/2012019154134_JST-male-connector.jpg

And this is a male (attaches to the lights)


http://www.gladstons.com/shop/1022-1083-large/jst-female-connector-with-15cm-lead.jpg

Always go by the pins to determine male/female and not the connector body! I can't count how many people get this wrong.

[Cos]

.

[ExtraSlow]

Just an FYI, AMRE sells a variety of power supplies and other LED lighting stuff. So you don't have to buy sketchy eBay shit.

Also, EDIT, shit, mr2mike isn't going to believe this, but I almost forgot that Lee valley sells this stuff too. They have a 6W power supply for nineteen bucks that would be great. Bunch of handy connectors too. And instructions on the web site.

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Crazyjoker77


As long as the input says 120v @60hz and output at 12vdc @>1.6A you can use it.


Is this what I'm looking for?

Seems a bit too...cheap?

power source (http://m.ebay.ca/itm/AC-DC-110-240V-12V-2A-POWER-SUPPLY-ADAPTER-CHARGER-FOR-3528-5050-LED-STRIPS-/381016172697?nav=SEARCH)

[Pipty]

xbox 360 power supplies are cheap and perfect for this fyi.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-turn-an-X-Box-360-PSU-into-a-12v-lab-PSU/

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Pipty
xbox 360 power supplies are cheap and perfect for this fyi.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-turn-an-X-Box-360-PSU-into-a-12v-lab-PSU/

Hmmm... This looks like an option but what about the one I posted up from eBay. Would that work too?

[Unknown303]

It would but the one posted earlier from active electronics would work just as well really won't be to expensive and can be had locally on Monday.

[Cos]

.

[LUDELVR]

Thanks everyone for the help and everything seems to be working out well. Looks a lot better with a bit of light:

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12278713_10153694391565180_3933038224064227336_n.jpg?oh=dfea498c2e8586e408828404515cc2b7&oe=56ED2101

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12299226_10153694391640180_141662634852067742_n.jpg?oh=7c955c2c681aa475069384450c62aecf&oe=56F2877B

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12310663_10153694391695180_7343065516525671100_n.jpg?oh=0eb08b6bad0d50f0003f3db8ec8c613f&oe=56EC2613

[LUDELVR]

I do have another question now regarding hooking up LEDs into a diorama. How does one hook up individual LEDs to a power source so I can use them throughout a diorama? I've used the same lights I put in the shelves but now I want to use the individual lights in smaller areas.

Can I simply take the electrodes on the LED and just hook it straight up to a power source or do I need a panel or something that will regulate the voltage? Are most/all LEDs the same voltage?

[Crazyjoker77]

Originally posted by LUDELVR
I do have another question now regarding hooking up LEDs into a diorama. How does one hook up individual LEDs to a power source so I can use them throughout a diorama? I've used the same lights I put in the shelves but now I want to use the individual lights in smaller areas.

Can I simply take the electrodes on the LED and just hook it straight up to a power source or do I need a panel or something that will regulate the voltage? Are most/all LEDs the same voltage?

It probably won't be that simple. You'll pretty much have to post up what your planning on using as each diode/array/pcb is going to hav different requirements. Even just changing the colour of the same series chip can have vastly different Vf.

Common voltages are 5v and 12v DC that are available to buy for pre made stuff.