Seeking clarification about rememberance day?

[Robin Goodfellow]

I keep hearing folks talking about how Canada had to defend itself from its enemies - But to my understanding, Canada has never been attacked - Canadians only helped their allies.


Also, if someone is a new Canadian, or the children of new Canadians, are they obligated to honor actions that happened before they showed up?

[theken]

It's about remembering our veterans for fighting for our freedoms.
Who cares if they honor Remembrance Day or not?

[asp integra]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

Also, if someone is a new Canadian, or the children of new Canadians, are they obligated to honor actions that happened before they showed up?

Of course they should honor the actions, they probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't a free land.

[FraserB]

It means something different to everyone. Most I think would say it's a time to reflect on the sacrifices made by those who laid their lives down in the defense of others and defending freedom.

[NoPulp]

A quick google search, this would be a good read for clarification.


http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/history/a-day-of-remembrance/why

"We must remember. If we do not, the sacrifice of those one hundred thousand Canadian lives will be meaningless. They died for us, for their homes and families and friends, for a collection of traditions they cherished and a future they believed in; they died for Canada. The meaning of their sacrifice rests with our collective national consciousness; our future is their monument."



We often take for granted many things like our freedom and rights. I think its important to at the very least take a moment to reflect on our past and remember the people who made such large sacrifices for us. I don't think anyone is "obligated" to participate, but I have no idea why any Canadian citizen wouldnt, new or not. I think it would be especially important to new canadians, why else would someone come to this great country?

As for the "defend" clarification, I suppose you could say we were defending our allies and our values.

[frizzlefry]

Should be remembered. But lets not get too carried away. Like what happened to this poor woman. Ending up on the Calgary herald site being shamed for putting her poppy on the wrong side. Jesus.

Link (http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/letters-for-monday-nov-9)

[btimbit]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
Should be remembered. But lets not get too carried away. Like what happened to this poor woman. Ending up on the Calgary herald site being shamed for putting her poppy on the wrong side. Jesus.

Link (http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/letters-for-monday-nov-9)

Is she actually being shamed and harassed over it? All I see is a comment about how it's incorrect and unacceptable

[googe]

Originally posted by theken
It's about remembering our veterans for fighting for our freedoms.
Who cares if they honor Remembrance Day or not?

That's his point, no one fought for our freedoms. They fought for our allies freedoms. Which is great, and also worth remembering (assuming we are talking about WW1 and WW2 vets - after that, whether or not we were on the right side of wars starts to get murky).

Some might say it would be disrespectful to make a big stink about remembering while not understanding precisely what it is we are supposedly remembering, or worse, claiming to remember things that didn't happen, so it's important to question these things.

[theken]

I believe without our allies we would t be free, if Germany had continued through with the nazi regime and taken over Britain, who had control over us, would things be the same?

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by btimbit


Is she actually being shamed and harassed over it? All I see is a comment about how it's incorrect and unacceptable

Absolutely. Your face accompanied a vet saying what you did was unacceptable? Better off showing the faces of people who didn't wear one. She donated to a poppy box to get it. More than many people do. Likely her only offense is being left handed, resulting in her applying it on her right side. Resulting in her public criticism showing her face and name. Is that not a public shaming?

[tirebob]

Technically, there were some events that can constitute an attack directly on Canada during WW2. The Japanese did have balloon bombs that made it over the Pacific and did drop on Canadian soil and German U boats did attack vessels in the St Lawrence seaway. Obviously these were not war starting events, but it was upon Canadian soil and waterways...

Other than that, we remember the bravery of men and women that were willing to assist others in defense of there own countries in multiple conflicts. That alone is worthy in my books...

[Darell_n]

It seems to me that Rememberance Day is all about the money. Everybody sells it as honouring our veterans for their heroic deeds, but then veterans start flipping out when kids take the time and effort to make their own poppies while learning the important events from the past. They want donations of cash, the rest is an advertising campaign.

[r3ccOs]

Originally posted by Darell_n
It seems to me that Rememberance Day is all about the money. Everybody sells it as honouring our veterans for their heroic deeds, but then veterans start flipping out when kids take the time and effort to make their own poppies while learning the important events from the past. They want donations of cash, the rest is an advertising campaign.

Veterans deserve our respect and if that comes in the form of charity, I do not mind.

they fought to defend our freedom, answering the call of duty and paying the ultimate sacrifice, so our generation doesn't.

a moment of silence and a small token of appreciation once a year is not too much to ask for...

as people say, look to your past to see your future.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Troll.

[Darell_n]

Originally posted by r3ccOs


Veterans deserve our respect and if that comes in the form of charity, I do not mind.

they fought to defend our freedom, answering the call of duty and paying the ultimate sacrifice, so our generation doesn't.

a moment of silence and a small token of appreciation once a year is not too much to ask for...

as people say, look to your past to see your future.

I agree, but the way some of the Legions are reacting is nothing matters to them, except the money. No amount of ceremony or stat holidays or poems or monuments or society pausing to reflect matters at all, if you don't show them the money. Money, money, money. I'm 100% positive they would be completely satisfied if their donations doubled and we skipped all the rest.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[killramos]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[Dave P]

Originally posted by FraserB
It means something different to everyone. Most I think would say it's a time to reflect on the sacrifices made by those who laid their lives down in the defense of others and defending freedom.

Hit the nail on the head.

/End Thread



Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Troll.

This.

[civic_stylez]

Originally posted by r3ccOs


Veterans deserve our respect and if that comes in the form of charity, I do not mind.

they fought to defend our freedom, answering the call of duty and paying the ultimate sacrifice, so our generation doesn't.

a moment of silence and a small token of appreciation once a year is not too much to ask for...

as people say, look to your past to see your future.

:thumbsup:

if anyone is worthy of charity it is those that stood up when called upon and left their home to go and fight a tyrant to defend the freedom that many of us take for granted.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by killramos
November the 11th is the one day a year you have to he thankful about the sacrifices of our current and former armed forces in making the country the safe haven it is today.

Every other day of the year you can go back to the socially progressive dogma that soldiers are all murdering fascists and with no military there would be NO WAR.

As for the "defending our allies" bit give your head a fucking shake.

So basically, fuck off Robin.

:thumbsup:

Don't agree with you often, but when you are right, you are right!

[Buster]

nsfw

DZCR4ChLG8s

[r3ccOs]

Robin "puck" Goodfellow, is as loonie as Toma, Thales and buttrash

[googe]

No reason to call Robin a troll just because you don't understand historical events.

Also, no respect whatsoever for anybody who participated in current wars. In no way are they comparable to WW2 vets, and it's an insult to the WW2 vets to treat them as such. They are quite obviously not "defending freedom" or making our country safe.

[01RedDX]

.

[ZenOps]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Citizenship_(Canada)

Anyone who immigrated before 1946 had to pledge allegiance to King George VI. Which everyone assumed at the time meant full military allegiance (if you were required to fight for Britain, you had no recourse)

"I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King George the Sixth, His Heirs and Successors, according to law, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen"

[googe]

Originally posted by 01RedDX

That said, I see no reason not to support or hold disdain for veterans of current conflicts, however, I view them more as victims of a corrupt geopolitical system. I think we should encourage PTSD awareness and family support programs, the license plate is a good one.

I suppose some may be victims of manipulation. Still, they're making a decision to go kill people. I don't think "you tricked me" is a valid defense, and we know "just following orders" holds no weight either.

I've met enough military folks who speak with genuine pleasure and thrill at the thought of blowing up the middle east, that mere disdain is a rather generous compromise.

I can't imagine why anyone would honor those who willingly applied for that job. One can't oppose wars and simultaneously honor the participants. Troops know what they're signing up for, and making a conscious decision to do so.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

Also, if someone is a new Canadian, or the children of new Canadians, are they obligated to honour actions that happened before they showed up?

yes.

[tirebob]

Originally posted by googe


I suppose some may be victims of manipulation. Still, they're making a decision to go kill people. I don't think "you tricked me" is a valid defense, and we know "just following orders" holds no weight either.

I've met enough military folks who speak with genuine pleasure and thrill at the thought of blowing up the middle east, that mere disdain is a rather generous compromise.

I can't imagine why anyone would honor those who willingly applied for that job. One can't oppose wars and simultaneously honor the participants. Troops know what they're signing up for, and making a conscious decision to do so. This is kind of unfair... I do agree there will always be "war mongers" among us who want battle and that is what they crave, but many soldiers believe in what they are doing and they believe in protecting those who are in a bad way. My neighbour was part of the peace keeping missions in Bosnia and in Somolia and is by no means a war monger. He wasn't there because he wanted to go around blowing people up...

[Feruk]

I don't think you can blame Canadian troops for the decision to go to Iraq and Afghanistan and play target practice where they are the target. Or for running bombing campaigns against ISIS or any civilians near them. You should blame our idiot ex-Prime Minister.

[01RedDX]

.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Feruk
I don't think you can blame Canadian troops for the decision to go to Iraq and Afghanistan and play target practice where they are the target. Or for running bombing campaigns against ISIS or any civilians near them. You should blame our idiot ex-Prime Minister.

I assume you're referencing both Chretien and Harper here?

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by googe


I suppose some may be victims of manipulation. Still, they're making a decision to go kill people. I don't think "you tricked me" is a valid defense, and we know "just following orders" holds no weight either.

I've met enough military folks who speak with genuine pleasure and thrill at the thought of blowing up the middle east, that mere disdain is a rather generous compromise.

I can't imagine why anyone would honor those who willingly applied for that job. One can't oppose wars and simultaneously honor the participants. Troops know what they're signing up for, and making a conscious decision to do so.

Are you educated and in the loop on how other countries or groups actions could effect Canadian sovereignty and freedoms? Have you visited a war zone and see what Canadian armed forces are doing day to day? Are you up to speed on what Canadian forces are doing in each country and why? Making blanket statements like this is absolutely ridiculous, uneducated and disrespectful.

[btimbit]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Absolutely. Your face accompanied a vet saying what you did was unacceptable? Better off showing the faces of people who didn't wear one. She donated to a poppy box to get it. More than many people do. Likely her only offense is being left handed, resulting in her applying it on her right side. Resulting in her public criticism showing her face and name. Is that not a public shaming?

Not really. Her name isn't being dragged through the mud, she's not being harassed or bullied over it.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by FraserB


I assume you're referencing both Chretien and Harper here?

My understanding is that Chretien made the minimum commitments required to appease our allies, whereas Harper favored escalated commitments.

Did I get this wrong?

[ZenOps]

Many people will not bother to put weight on a locally elected government (four or eight year term) as a decision to go to war.

Its usually a personal one, that usually has much higher weighting on religious following (meaning many will go to war if the pope or whoever their religious leader is) and king more than country.

For me, Harper or Trudeau has almost no weight on any moral decisions like that. Its always Personal > Religious > Honor (pledge allegiance to the king or queen) > Duty (the guy who is paying the bills) > and then "maybe" a prime minister saying to fight.

If Queen Elizabeth tells me to fight Rob Anders, I will definitely side with the Queen every time. That would make me a redcoat in US civil war terms.

Donald Trump dodged the US draft five times, he also put "Personal" above all other factors in deciding to not risk his life.

BTW: White people in North America will also tend to fight red lines on a map. Blacks and Asians in America historically did not own land, so they are much less likely to fight for land - per say, and it makes complete sense that they would require other motivations to go to war.

Hence, if you were to draw a red line around Canada with a "do not step over this line or else", I would not see that as a reason to go to war - Only a white person would.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by btimbit


Not really. Her name isn't being dragged through the mud, she's not being harassed or bullied over it.

Being called out as doing something "unacceptable" while publicly exposing her face and name in a public forum while criticizing her is really unnecessary. She bought a poppy, did her part. And got publicly heckled. By the person she is trying to support. Pathetic.

[l/l/rX]

I don't really know how to put this, I remember for every life lost. I am super patriotic towards my country. The battles my regiment has won in previous wars I am super honoured to be a serving member under that regiment name, because to this day, other countries still praise us for our bravery and our fight.

That being said, I am not for the wars in the middle east where our troops are sent. Until things get much worse with Russia (if and when) and then our freedom becomes a threat, I will bow out of that fight for as long as possible.

edit: To the OP, regardless of Canada not being attacked or not, we stood beside our allies in a time of need, just like our allies would stand beside us if WW1 or WW2 or any other war had taken place here in NA.

Also at the end of the day, our commander in chief is the Queen.

[JustinL]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


Being called out as doing something "unacceptable" while publicly exposing her face and name in a public forum while criticizing her is really unnecessary. She bought a poppy, did her part. And got publicly heckled. By the person she is trying to support. Pathetic.

Maybe she has dextrocardia...

[gwill]

Robins questions had to be one of the most ignorant questions I ever read. Do people new to canada have to honour the veterans bla blah blah??? Why don't we take those same new Canadians who are too ignorant to honor the vets and remove all customs or celebrations they think they have a right to in canada.

We're only talking world wide wars that affected every country across the world... But yeah let's use the new to canada and I'm ignorant card as another reason to do as you please.

[Zhao Kan]

Originally posted by googe
No reason to call Robin a troll just because you don't understand historical events.


I would say it's you and him that do not understand historical events.

Canada has been attacked before on both coasts before. Almost no one knows this but I-26 made an attack on Vancouver island. There was the balloon bombings as mentioned too. The results of ww1 are debatable, but there probably aren't too many people on this planet who understand WW2 history and would be happy under Nazi or Imperial Japanese rule. Even Germans weren't safe under the Nazi regime.

I'm sure there are countless millions that would have been happy if we were successful in the Russian civil war, mainly because countless millions were killed by Stalin's rule a short time later.

I would say there are many South Koreans who are happy Canada fought in that war. The guy who basically said fuck every vet in any war since ww2 obviously is brain dead, or completely ignorant of the positives of us being in the Korean war. There are many Koreans in Canada who wouldn't be Canadian if it wasn't for us and our allies fighting in that war.

We then stuck to peace keeping missions up until the afghan war. Ya, screw all those vets too... I'm sure Bosnia really is pissed off that we were there to interfere with the ethnic cleansing.

There are Afghans that are happy Canada fought in that war and are benefiting from the results.



Wars are more complicated then black and white, and just because someone sees our involvement in a war and is quick to shout 21st century imperialism! doesn't mean there aren't still positives from our involvement in a lot of areas.

[lilmira]

To the people with ties to HK, Canadian troops fought the Japanese there and many lost their lives. That's more than enough of a reason for me personally to say thank you.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by Zhao Kan


I would say it's you and him that do not understand historical events.

Canada has been attacked before on both coasts before. Almost no one knows this but I-26 made an attack on Vancouver island. There was the balloon bombings as mentioned too. The results of ww1 are debatable, but there probably aren't too many people on this planet who understand WW2 history and would be happy under Nazi or Imperial Japanese rule. Even Germans weren't safe under the Nazi regime.

I'm sure there are countless millions that would have been happy if we were successful in the Russian civil war, mainly because countless millions were killed by Stalin's rule a short time later.

I would say there are many South Koreans who are happy Canada fought in that war. The guy who basically said fuck every vet in any war since ww2 obviously is brain dead, or completely ignorant of the positives of us being in the Korean war. There are many Koreans in Canada who wouldn't be Canadian if it wasn't for us and our allies fighting in that war.

We then stuck to peace keeping missions up until the afghan war. Ya, screw all those vets too... I'm sure Bosnia really is pissed off that we were there to interfere with the ethnic cleansing.

There are Afghans that are happy Canada fought in that war and are benefiting from the results.



Wars are more complicated then black and white, and just because someone sees our involvement in a war and is quick to shout 21st century imperialism! doesn't mean there aren't still positives from our involvement in a lot of areas.

I would like to commend your post for thoughtfulness and insight.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by lilmira
To the people with ties to HK, Canadian troops fought the Japanese there and many lost their lives. That's more than enough of a reason for me personally to say thank you.

Great observation, and relevant to many here...

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by gwill
Robins questions had to be one of the most ignorant questions I ever read.

Don't make me shoulder *all* of the blame.

The fact that you're a dull and unimaginative robot has to play some role.

[cancer man]

Merry Christmas Everyone.

The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name.