Turkey shoot down Russian plane, Putin calls Turkey accomplisses to terror.

[04Terminator]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124

[schurchill39]

Why would you ever want to fuck with Russia? That just has bad news written all over it. Turks say they crossed into their airspace, Russians say they didn't. I predict a whole world of hurt coming Turkey's way.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Yeah.......this doesn't seem like a healthy situation.

[vengie]

Slippery slope.. Will wait for confirmation of the flight path before passing judgement.

[spikerS]

Good on Turkey for not backing down to Russia, however, Fuck turkey for shooting and killing the pilots as they parachuted to the ground after ejecting.

Would have been much better to keep them as POWs.

[schocker]

Rebels blew up one of the search and rescue choppers when it landed
IschF-ihjS0
wtf is going on over there.

[gwill]

If Russia goes to war with Turkey we'll see a spike in oil prices. Woooo hooo

[A790]

Originally posted by gwill
If Russia goes to war with Turkey we'll see a spike in oil prices. Woooo hooo
Turkey is a NATO nation.

Absolutely no good can come from this.

[Inzane]

Why the hell would they shoot the pilots?

WTF is wrong with these people??

[lilmira]

Turkey shot down the plane. The rebel in Syria shot the pilots. This can't be good for business.

I must break you.

[04Terminator]

Russia has previously chastized Turkey for supporting ISIS through buying its oil.

Russia destroyed a 500 vehicle ISIS convoy it claimed was carrying oil, last week.

Im all about airspace, but was that necessary? After all, the target was not Turkey, but ISIS.

What would America do if this happened.

[tirebob]

Originally posted by Inzane
Why the hell would they shoot the pilots?

WTF is wrong with these people?? Not justifying, but why the surprise? What is the difference of them trying to kill them while they are on the plane or after? They wanted them dead to begin with apparently...

[Inzane]

Originally posted by tirebob
Not justifying, but why the surprise? What is the difference of them trying to kill them while they are on the plane or after? They wanted them dead to begin with apparently...

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a military guy at all. But isn't the primary goal of shooting down a plane (or bombing a tank etc.) to DESTROY THE ASSET, not kill the people per se?

Shooting parachuting survivors from a downed plane seems akin to shooting retreating ground troops in the back.

Is shooting pilots adhering to rules of engagement? (asking because I really don't know).

[lilmira]

Originally posted by Inzane


Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a military guy at all. But isn't the primary goal of shooting down a plane (or bombing a tank etc.) to DESTROY THE ASSET, not kill the people per se?

Shooting parachuting survivors from a downed plane seems akin to shooting retreating ground troops in the back.

Is shooting pilots adhering to rules of engagement? (asking because I really don't know).

Doesn't sound like the pilots were killed by the turkish troops. It happened near the border, the pilots ended up on the Syria side.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Inzane


Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a military guy at all. But isn't the primary goal of shooting down a plane (or bombing a tank etc.) to DESTROY THE ASSET, not kill the people per se?

That is my thought on the matter. I mean, the person would have valuable information, why kill them? Good bargaining chip for later too.



Shooting parachuting survivors from a downed plane seems akin to shooting retreating ground troops in the back.

Is shooting pilots adhering to rules of engagement? (asking because I really don't know).

I can't speak to the RoE, but to me, killing a pilot while parachuting the ground is akin to shooting an un-armed person, military or not. Unless the pilots were actively shooting downward of course...

[04Terminator]

From the Guardian, just now.

White House: 'Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted seconds'

Russia’s operation in Syria will continue despite the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force, the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov has said. Meanwhile, a US official has said that initial indications are that the Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted a matter of seconds.

[tirebob]

Originally posted by Inzane


Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a military guy at all. But isn't the primary goal of shooting down a plane (or bombing a tank etc.) to DESTROY THE ASSET, not kill the people per se?

Shooting parachuting survivors from a downed plane seems akin to shooting retreating ground troops in the back.

Is shooting pilots adhering to rules of engagement? (asking because I really don't know).


Originally posted by spikerS


That is my thought on the matter. I mean, the person would have valuable information, why kill them? Good bargaining chip for later too.



I can't speak to the RoE, but to me, killing a pilot while parachuting the ground is akin to shooting an un-armed person, military or not. Unless the pilots were actively shooting downward of course...

Oh I agree for sure... I just am not surprised...

[Mitsu3000gt]

Doesn't make it right, but hasn't Turkey warned Russia multiple times about this? You'd think after that, you would keep better tabs on the air space. Seems excessive though for sure.

[Xtrema]

Russia is fighting ISIS, but also gathering intel on NATO air space. They have been testing it for a while now.

Turkey has been backing ISIS simply they hate Kurds.

This is a really fucked up situation. People need to understand we need to stay out and dictatorship is the only working solution in that area.


Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Doesn't make it right, but hasn't Turkey warned Russia multiple times about this? You'd think after that, you would keep better tabs on the air space. Seems excessive though for sure.

Turkey should have never be admitted into NATO, let alone EU. Especially the current ultra religious and right wing government.

[revelations]

Originally posted by 04Terminator
What would America do if this happened.

American spy aircraft were shot down on at least a dozen occasions during the heights of the cold war. Nothing became of these. The situation here is different though.


The Russians are famous for their zero fucks given about violating other countries airspace - esp. those whom they consider to be weaker on the world stage (eg. Sweden, Finland, Norway etc.).

The only answer to bullying is to fight back, thats what happened here.

[schurchill39]

I believe last winter there was an incident where Russia was toeing the line of American air space just off of Alaska. They had to be escorted out, or jets were scrambled or something like that.....

[suntan]

Originally posted by schurchill39
I believe last winter there was an incident where Russia was toeing the line of American air space just off of Alaska. They had to be escorted out, or jets were scrambled or something like that..... Meh, that shit happens all the time.

[Gman.45]

The Russians are famous for their zero fucks given about violating other countries airspace - esp. those whom they consider to be weaker on the world stage (eg. Sweden, Finland, Norway etc.). The only answer to bullying is to fight back, thats what happened here.

DingDingDing!

Exactly - in fact in the last couple of weeks Russia has violated Turkish airspace intentionally several times. It's sent in pairs of SU30 fighters, locked up Turkish fighters with their radars while in Turkish airspace, then turned and evaded/retreaded to Syrian airspace. In fact, Russia hasn't even denied it, the last time they pulled that stunt with their air superiority fighters, SU30s, they claimed it was "Navigational error" for their reason for being in Turkish airspace. Oh ya, and for the radar locks too. Good one, with all the modern nav aids, it's almost impossible for the territorial violations to be mere accidents.

If you look at the track of this SU24, it turned two times to circle back and penetrate the same part of Turkish airspace. It was warned. It did it again. It ate an Aim120.

While I do agree that shooting Russian planes isn't a real brilliant long term strategy, at what point is enough, enough?

If Turkey sent fighters into Russian airspace, locked up Russian fighters, and repeated this behavior several times, does anyone here think Russian wouldn't shoot eventually? I doubt they would have been as patient as the Turks have been with that.


Article 4 of the Nato charter is the real issue here. I wonder how many times those two words have been uttered in the emergency Nato meeting right now - the thumb on the clicker counting that would be numb. Article 4 is a two edged sword, especially for Nato members like Turkey.

Russia does have a point too, Turkey buying cheap oil from ISIS is effing ridiculous, why NATO is tolerating that is beyond me.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by schurchill39
I believe last winter there was an incident where Russia was toeing the line of American air space just off of Alaska. They had to be escorted out, or jets were scrambled or something like that.....

Russian Bears are constantly going up and down the west coast from the north pole, down Alaska, the coast of BC, and all the way down to Mexico, just sitting a mile or so out of american and canadian air space. The US also continually mirrors them along their flight plan, ready to lock on and fire.

[Nitro5]

isn't Turkey also playing games of where it's border with Syria is as well? Was the plane in Turkish airspace, or in the disputed area?

[04Terminator]

Obviously, countries with common goals and enemies should not shoot at each other, but offer safety for its pilots and combatants.

Turkey has made it clear it supports ISIS, and what side it's on. Time to treat them accordingly.

[ICEBERG]

Some more background to this incident:

"If confirmed this was not the first Russian planes breached into the Turkish airspace. On Oct. 3 and 4 a Russian Air Force Su-30SM and Su-24 aircraft violated Ankara’s sovereign airspace in the Hatay region. NATO said that the Russian combat planes entered Turkish airspace despite Turkish authorities’ “clear, timely and repeated warnings.” In that case, TuAF F-16s in QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) were scrambled to identify the intruder, after which the Russian planes departed Turkish airspace. Nevertheless, as if violating the airspace of a NATO member was not enough, the Russian Su-30SM maintained a radar lock on one or both the F-16s for a full 5 minutes and 40 seconds. According the Russians, the violation was due to a “navigation error.” Following the incident Ankara said it would shot down any aircraft violating their sovereign airspace as done in the past with the Syrian Mig-23 and Mi-17."

"Navigation error":rofl: :rofl: :rofl: A Garmin is going to be on someone's Christmas list.:D

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn222/icegberg70/plane_zps2sgedvuc.jpg

[04Terminator]

All the excuses in the world don't justify supporting ISIS instead of countries fighting it.

Turkey, under the current ruler is an extremist state, and is buying ISIS oil and supplying aid to ISIS and affording mobility.

Turkey has officially chosen sides.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by 04Terminator
Obviously, countries with common goals and enemies should not shoot at each other, but offer safety for its pilots and combatants.

Turkey has made it clear it supports ISIS, and what side it's on. Time to treat them accordingly.

I knew it. Its Toma. :nut:

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Russia is fighting ISIS, but also gathering intel on NATO air space. They have been testing it for a while now.

Turkey has been backing ISIS simply they hate Kurds.

This is a really fucked up situation. People need to understand we need to stay out and dictatorship is the only working solution in that area.



Turkey should have never be admitted into NATO, let alone EU. Especially the current ultra religious and right wing government.

Holy fuck. A dictatorship is the only way.:nut:

[BavarianBeast]

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b5/c4/af/b5c4af041552dad90afd639a9a36076d.jpg

[ICEBERG]

Originally posted by 04Terminator
All the excuses in the world don't justify supporting ISIS instead of countries fighting it.

Turkey, under the current ruler is an extremist state, and is buying ISIS oil and supplying aid to ISIS and affording mobility.

Turkey has officially chosen sides.

More like this... It is a mess there an this cartoon sums it up....

http://acdemocracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/turkey-supporting-isis-cartoon.jpg

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


I knew it. Its Toma. :nut:

hahaaha

[ICEBERG]

It is soooo messed up in the region that here are some good reads.

There's also another factor here. Russia has, in just the past week, been bombing Syrian rebels who are part of the Turkmen ethnic group. This enraged Turkey, which summoned the Russian ambassador to demand Russia stop its bombing. Turkey considers ethnic Turkmen to be something like unofficial Turkish citizens.

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the Russian-bombed Syrians "our Turkmen siblings" and said "we are condemning this barbarian attack in the strongest way." A statement by Turkey's foreign ministry warned the bombing "may lead to serious consequences."

That is not to say that Turkey necessarily shot down the Russian plane in cold-blooded vengeance for Russia bombing ethnic Turkmens. But the bombings may have contributed to already-rising tensions between Turkey and Russia over Syria. And it's not just the flights: Russia intervened in Syria to support Bashar al-Assad, but Turkey has been involved in Syria for a few years seeking to topple Assad. They're on opposite sides of a deadly serious proxy war. Escalation was not out of the question.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/24/9790990/turkey-russia-plane-shootdown

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34910389

[revelations]

Turkey isnt helping in the region, but the Russians are stupid if they think they can get away with flying around with impunity..... having said that the Americans are guilty of this as well.... just not to the same degree and the Americans have a lot more friendly nations around the world than Russia.

Anyone watched comments from Wes Clark lately?

[OTown]

To me this was a major mistake by the Turkish government but I doubt anything will come from it. Russia knew full well what they were doing - they have been caught in the wrong airspace countless times. These types of things (blue on blue) happen more often than we like to know. Im sure Turkey will have to make up some sort of compensation but I doubt a war will be started by such a mistake.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by OTown
To me this was a major mistake by the Turkish government but I doubt anything will come from it. Russia knew full well what they were doing - they have been caught in the wrong airspace countless times. These types of things (blue on blue) happen more often than we like to know. Im sure Turkey will have to make up some sort of compensation but I doubt a war will be started by such a mistake.

This is definitely not a blue on blue shooting. Turkey has warned Russia to stay out of its airspace plenty of times. Now they get a bigger message.

The Turkish Air Force can certainly handle anything the Russia s throw at it though. It's one of the most advanced in the West.

[eblend]

Pretty shitty thing to do for 17 seconds of incursion....way to help out ISIS turkey...first buying their cheap ass oil ...bombing Kurds....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUl-VWuW4AA4sZS.jpg

[Supa Dexta]

Wouldn't their air force be much smaller and could be swarmed by numbers alone? No idea, just a thought.

Russia says they weren't in there
Turkey says they warned them 10x over a 5 min period to leave
US says they were in fact in there, but only for seconds...?

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Wouldn't their air force be much smaller and could be swarmed by numbers alone? No idea, just a thought.

Russia says they weren't in there
Turkey says they warned them 10x over a 5 min period to leave
US says they were in fact in there, but only for seconds...?

I would be surprised if Russia could put up a large number of any fighter that would be a match for Turkey's heavily upgraded F-16s.

Considering that their "fight" against ISIS or whatever the hell they're doing in Syria is nothing more than helicopters dropping dumb bombs out their doors (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/syrians-are-paying-a-high-price-for-russia-s-cheap-bomb-1744082828) or using expensive cruise missiles for a show of force (and really, something the USA has been doing forever.)

[Sugarphreak]

....

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


My money is on Russia

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=russia&country2=turkey&Submit=COMPARE

Mine's not. Turkey has pretty much perfectly maintained F-16s, trained pilots that actually fly and fight them a lot, and good AWACS control. Not to mention, good, reliable weapons.

Russia doesn't. It has none of those things.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[01RedDX]

.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Doesn't really matter, Russia would still destroy Turkey just with shear force

Besides, if they actually go into it... Russia would just break out the artillery, the massive fleet of ships, and subs, and those planes would have no place to land

I just hope that the rest of the world stays out of it, last thing I wan to see is the US backing Turkey on this.

True, but if the war was confined to the air, my money is on Turkey. Training and modern equipment go a long way.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


You're mostly wrong.

I don't see how.

[A790]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


I don't see how.
Russia's airforce is roughly six times the size.

Even with their experience and technological advantages, a force of that size alone would be overwhelming.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by A790

Russia's airforce is roughly six times the size.

Even with their experience and technological advantages, a force of that size alone would be overwhelming.

Sure, if they can get near them. Turkey can launch AIM-120s on datalinks from their AWACS without their F-16s ever turning radars on.

If Russia's Air Force is so big and capable, why are they barely in Syria? Everyone is all "OMG RUSSIA" with the Syrian war... they certainly aren't contributing much; possibly because none of their equipment works these days? (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/you-may-puke-watching-this-tug-boat-attempt-to-tow-russ-1742392802)

[schurchill39]

What Russia lacks in "modern technology" it makes up for in pure brute force, man power, and artillery supply.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by schurchill39
What Russia lacks in "modern technology" it makes up for in pure brute force, man power, and artillery supply.

Not when it comes to an air force. The USA (and the Isrealis) proved long ago that training is the winner in the air.

[eblend]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD



If Russia's Air Force is so big and capable, why are they barely in Syria? Everyone is all "OMG RUSSIA" with the Syrian war... they certainly aren't contributing much; possibly because none of their equipment works these days? (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/you-may-puke-watching-this-tug-boat-attempt-to-tow-russ-1742392802)

I was going to comment, but realized it's no use....obviously you haven't been watching the news.

Your one sided lean is rather telling..to the point where I am not sure if you are trolling or not..

[CompletelyNumb]

Russia has nukes though. :hijack:

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by eblend


I was going to comment, but realized it's no use....obviously you haven't been watching the news.

Your one sided lean is rather telling..to the point where I am not sure if you are trolling or not..

I certainly have been watching the news. France has more jets operating over Syria than Russia.

http://i.imgur.com/PFB9kr2.jpg


Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
Russia has nukes though. :hijack:

So does Turkey, although they don't own them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing#NATO

[eblend]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


I certainly have been watching the news. France has more jets operating over Syria than Russia.

http://i.imgur.com/PFB9kr2.jpg



Having more planes doesn't really tell the story. They have no ground intelligence, which the Russians get from the Syrian army. Sure the Russian's may be bombing "moderate opposition"....but as evidenced by shooting at parachuting pilots....they are no better then ISIS.

And just because you have more planes doesn't mean you are bombing all the time, or releasing your weapons

"The U.S. conducted 7,319 sorties over Iraq and Syria as part of Operation Inherent Resolve in the first four months of 2015. Of those, only 1,859 flights — 25.4 percent — had at least one “weapons release,” according to data provided by United States Air Force Central Command. That means that only about one in every four flights dropped a bomb on an Islamic State target."

Anyways, not gonna argue, you think what you want.

[Sentry]

Plane count seems irrelevant when the Russians are using actual big-dick strategic bombers instead of just fighter-bombers.

[gwill]

Well oil spiked 3% after the downing of the plane. Let's hope for a few more to get shot down... Maybe Russia loses one to the Americans this time. Let's go oil!

[sxtasy]

Yeah, let's hope for all out world war so oil jumps back up again!!!

[ZenOps]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95

Putin?

Good old 1950's tech, but can still drop 12 tons nearly anywhere in the world.

You would be crazy ivan to use any technology made in the last two decades, gotta save that stuff for WWIII.

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


Sure, if they can get near them. Turkey can launch AIM-120s on datalinks from their AWACS without their F-16s ever turning radars on.

If Russia's Air Force is so big and capable, why are they barely in Syria? Everyone is all "OMG RUSSIA" with the Syrian war... they certainly aren't contributing much; possibly because none of their equipment works these days? (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/you-may-puke-watching-this-tug-boat-attempt-to-tow-russ-1742392802)

Doesn't matter for a bomber. Technically any passenger airplane could be retrofitted to be a multiton bomber.

Take out the seats and punch out a hatch on the bottom of the plane - easy peasy and supercheap. Arguably, every nation could have a few hundred bombers with half a week of welding.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

As much as "RUSSIA STRONK" is a fairly pervasive meme, I agree that their air force is a shell of its former power, and their ability to project air power into Turkey is far lesser than Turkey's ability to maintain and defend the skies over their borders. The Turks are modernized and well-equipped.

[ICEBERG]

I wouldn't want to F@ck around with Turkey. Would they win against Russia? Prob. not but they also won't loose...

W5zceMbQ6r0

[Gman.45]

The Russians have some pretty good a2a weapons. Remember that their AA11 Archer was easily the best IR guided weapon in the world for decades until the Aim9x, IRIS, ASRAAM, Python, and some of the other Israeli/French missiles came along many years after the R73/AA11 was around. It was the first off axis/Helmet sight cued missile, and when the West got a hold of one in the late 80s, they were very surprised at how much more advanced it was than the current Aim9s, even the Aim9m at the time which was just coming around. Their Adder class MRM missiles are pretty capable as well, so are their radars in their SU30s in Syria right now too. Don't make the mistake of underestimating them.

That said, I do agree that training, experience, as well as using modern air battle doctrine including AWACS gives Turkey an advantage in that department, however to offset that Russia now has an S300/SAN6 equipped ship and an SA21 battery in the theater, which can pick off an Awacs from quite a distance with the long range missile in the S400/SA21 battery, as well as most anything else. Until they were destroyed, both these SAM systems can hold at risk every fighter Turkey could put in the air over Syira - and destroying an S400 battery is no easy task for Turkey, even without a layered defense surrounding it, which I'm certain will be there, if it isn't already.

Again, don't underestimate the Russians or their tech.

I do agree also that the "numbers" of the Russian air force are inflated, most of the current sources show airframes, not actual planes available for combat NOW, which is a fraction of the stated aircraft levels. Right now, today, India for example who fly SU variant fighters, have over 1/2 down waiting for engines or engine repair parts, or other vital avionics/systems repairs. The reason for that is Russia can't keep up with their maintenance due to shortages in all the above - I doubt it's much different for their own AF.

If it came to war between Turkey/Russia and Nato ignore the article 4 part of the NATO treaty, it'd be a very close fight in the air in opening days IMO, lots of planes destroyed by both A2A weapons and SAM systems in the first battles, on both sides.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
their ability to project air power into Turkey is far lesser than Turkey's ability to maintain and defend the skies over their borders. The Turks are modernized and well-equipped.

I think this is really the thing to focus on. Sure, straight up Russia could overwhelm Turkey with their airforce, but that's not what we are talking about. It's Russia that is projecting, Turkey defending. Turkey can probably defend all day long against the Russians.

Good on Turkey for standing its ground. Hope NATO stands behind it (even though as mentioned earlier, Turkey should never have been a part of NATO).

[jdmXSI]

Originally posted by eblend
Pretty shitty thing to do for 17 seconds of incursion....way to help out ISIS turkey...first buying their cheap ass oil ...bombing Kurds....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUl-VWuW4AA4sZS.jpg

Agreed, even looking exactly where they impeded their airspace this whole thing is a bit rediculous.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2015/11-overflow/20151124_nato1.jpg

[killramos]

Considering the history between Russia and Turkey, Russia shouldn't have been going within 50 km of Turkish airspace. Pull that 30 years ago and there likely would be have been nuclear launch procedures initiated.

Russia was being cocky and poking the bear and geuss what. They got burned for it.

Do i think Turkey shooting down a Russian fighter plane was a good idea? No

Do i understand why they did it? Yes.

They were the ones making a joke of an adversaries sovereignty. :dunno:

[jdmXSI]

I guess just the tip is never a good idea then...?

I do agree they were poking the bear especially if it was a consistent thing but that is hard to justify in that part of their air airspace and the fact it was a few seconds. Let's just hope it doesn't escalate.

[KrisYYC]

Turkish fighter jets routinely violate Greek airspace. The Greeks warn them and escort them out. Turkey can't play innocent vicitim here. Especially if they really are underhandedly supporting ISIS by buying oil from them and going after the Kurds.

I do find it odd that within a week of Russia bombing ISIS oil convoys Turkey shoots down one of their aircraft...

Why Turkey was ever allowed in NATO is beyond me. If it does escalate I hope the rest of NATO leaves Turkey on their own.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by ICEBERG
I wouldn't want to F@ck around with Turkey. Would they win against Russia? Prob. not but they also won't loose...

W5zceMbQ6r0

hahaha a new 5th gen twin engine fighter that hasn't had a first flight yet is included in their weapons systems by 2025 video? That's optimism.

[Kloubek]

The bottom line is no matter whether you agree with what Turkey should have been entitled to do what they did or not, the fact remains that any new conflicts in the region can only serve to destabilize things further. It was bad enough when different countries are supporting different rebel groups, but to have actual country vs country conflict is a scary proposition. (The kind of thing that really can lead to full-out wars.)

[01RedDX]

.

[ICEBERG]

Originally posted by KrisYYC
Turkish fighter jets routinely violate Greek airspace. The Greeks warn them and escort them out.

What??? Greeks have planes to escort anyone out. I thought they sold everything on ebay to pay their debt to EU...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Sentry]

Originally posted by ICEBERG


What??? Greeks have planes to escort anyone out. I thought they sold everything on ebay to pay their debt to EU...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Nah mang, greeks don't pay debts.