Inquiry of Adding Solar to a Home

[KPHMPH]

It seems like you've been in the real estate business for quite some time and I want your opinion on this situation.

We are currently in Mahogany on a water front property and am looking at adding solar to the home.

The comps for the area are between $750,000 - $900,000 on our street and the price to add solar is $25,000.

Do you find when showing house that have solar people are more inclined to pay a slight premium to have solar on their house or would they buy the house next door so they get 25k off.

[nzwasp]

Price to add solar with enmax, because I looked into that program and it seems like a complete rip off to be honest, you would be much better either doing it yourself or with an independent contractor.

[ExtraSlow]

My opinion is that at best, folks would be willing to pay a tiny tiny premium for a solar-equipped home. Maybe five thousand or less.
If you had reduced your monthly electric bill substantially,and were marketing your home, maybe put that info into the listing or the feature sheets. Highlighting a $50/mo savings would be interesting to some folks.

My gut feel is you aren't recovering your investment in terms of increased resale value. You really have to put a value on the "warm and fuzzy" for it to make sense, IMHO.

Think of it this way, if a builder could install it and charge more for the house at the outset, why isn't that an upgrade that they feature? Surely they could save big on materials, creating a good profit margin? I always assume that large companies like that have done the research for me. Not sure if that's true. :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

[jwslam]

I would bet that someone who's buying "energy efficient" isn't ONLY looking for solar panels. You're gonna need to have other eco-friendly stuff to get the right buyer that's willing to pay that premium. Add things like rain barrels, compost bins, small garden, dual flush toilets throughout, tankless water heater, etc.

[Cos]

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[killramos]

How much are people's electricity bills that they would even consider spending 25k Capital plus god knows what to operate to eliminate them?

Keep in mind that to recoupe your investment you are assuming that someone just as crazy is going to be willing to pay a 5 figure premium for a used system. And that 5 figure number won't be 25k.

The whole concept is pretty ludicrous for anyone in an area with reliable grid connection. If you are off grid or have outages often i could see the value though. But Mahogany? What is downtime like 12 seconds a year on average?

[theken]

It can eliminate your electrical bill completely, and you can sell back unused electricity, you could actually make 30-50 a month, but, they have about a shelf life of I think 10 years on the panels (maybe 20 I'm not positive, it's been a while since I looked) and your panels are expensive to replace. I would do it when price comes down substantially, and longevity is improved.

[Cos]

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[ZenOps]

Cost of electricity In Alberta about 6 cents per kwh.

Assuming you are an average consumer, 630 kwh per month. $453 Canadian per year in consumption.

Cost of electricity in Hawaii about 36 US cents per kwh.

Hawaii average is 615 kwh per month. Which works out to be $2,656 US per year.

Assuming a break even point in ten years, you have to produce 630 kwh per month on a budget of $4,530 Canadian (not inflation adjusted).

Which is wholly impossible, I believe it could be done for closer to $30,000. Which means break even for Hawaii with no government rebates.

I don't include line fees, because even if you go completely off grid, but still live in the city - they will probably still charge you line fees anyhow. Just like if you recycled your own sewage, I'm pretty sure they would still charge you to for maintenance of the run to each of your neighbors.

[Cos]

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[ExtraSlow]

I wasn't aware that alberta was offering net-metering or any kind of multiplier on the price of power.

[Cos]

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[bjstare]

Originally posted by theken
It can eliminate your electrical bill completely, and you can sell back unused electricity, you could actually make 30-50 a month, but, they have about a shelf life of I think 10 years on the panels (maybe 20 I'm not positive, it's been a while since I looked) and your panels are expensive to replace. I would do it when price comes down substantially, and longevity is improved.

Not a chance will it eliminate your bill completely at our latitude/days of sun per year (refer to my post below). Also the panels typically have a life span of 25 years.

EDIT: didn't realize the net-zero and incentives were now in place in AB when I posted this. disregard. haha


Originally posted by ZenOps
Cost of electricity In Alberta about 6 cents per kwh.

Assuming you are an average consumer, 630 kwh per month. $453 Canadian per year in consumption.

Cost of electricity in Hawaii about 36 US cents per kwh.

Hawaii average is 615 kwh per month. Which works out to be $2,656 US per year.

Assuming a break even point in ten years, you have to produce 630 kwh per month on a budget of $4,530 Canadian (not inflation adjusted).

Which is wholly impossible, I believe it could be done for closer to $30,000. Which means break even for Hawaii with no government rebates.

I don't include line fees, because even if you go completely off grid, but still live in the city - they will probably still charge you line fees anyhow. Just like if you recycled your own sewage, I'm pretty sure they would still charge you to for maintenance of the run to each of your neighbors.

My parents have a house in Hawaii, and installed a solar panel array last year that feeds back into the grid, which is credited onto their bill. The cost after rebates was ~$14k (for people who actually live in HI full time, the cost after rebates is only ~$6k). The system pays for itself very quickly in HI, depending on your usage (i.e. if you have either a pool or highly utilize AC, power bills are very high). My parents use AC for 5 months a year when they're there, no pool, and once the system pays for itself (I forget how many years in their case, under 10 IIRC), they will have a net $0 electricity bill until the panels exceed their useful life cycle.

TL;DR - no way will you break even in Canada with the current cost of electricity and panels. Break even in Hawaii (even with minimal rebates) comes quite quickly.

[Cos]

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[msommers]

I wouldn't bother. When we get to where Germany is with their energiewende, it might be worthwhile.

[suntan]

Originally posted by Cos
http://www.cansia.ca/sites/default/files/policy_and_research/solar_vision_2025_resource_map.png

We actually have quite high energy output for Solar. It is surprising. If you get a job here I'll share the power point we were presented. LOL That map is, quite simply, wrong.

Go here:

http://pv.nrcan.gc.ca/pvmapper.php?MapSize=500%2C500&ViewRegion=Quick+Zoom&CMD=ZOOM_IN&minx=-1575068.890000&miny=5760343.130000&maxx=2057995.610000&maxy=9393407.630000&imagewidth=500&imageheight=500&CHKBOX[4240]=4240&CHKBOX[2057]=2057&CHKBOX[92113]=92113&units=0&tilt=1&period=13&title=PV+potential+and+insolation&title_e=PV+potential+and+insolation&title_f=Potentiel+photovolta%C3%AFque+et+ensoleillement&lang=e&LAYERS=2057%2C4240&SETS=1707%2C1708%2C1709%2C1710%2C1122&RLAYER=92113

Yeah so "Annual" looks good.

But then pick any month. There is not one month where the PV potential goes to orange - in fact there's only two months where yellow appears.

So what they've done is added up all the PV potential for each month together, and then forgetting to divide by 12.

Nice.

I just looked at a recent PV potential map for the USA last week, there's no way we can match places like Phoenix.

[Cos]

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[suntan]

Clearly that is not a "mean of the entire year".

Sigh. Yes, heat affects it - a bit.

Look at the blurry graph they show. The difference between 50C and 25C is not even 0.1Volt!

[suntan]

US map:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VH5V8S7KiQY/Tzk9EmvKjGI/AAAAAAAABMs/FwwQNmVSta4/s1600/Photovoltaic+Power+Map_small.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-h6WB8pT3g6U/Tzk_l1-8EEI/AAAAAAAABM0/tWc5hO5U4B0/s1600/Photovoltaic+Power+Map_Key.jpg

[Cos]

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[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Cos
http://www.cansia.ca/sites/default/files/policy_and_research/solar_vision_2025_resource_map.png

We actually have quite high energy output for Solar. It is surprising. If you get a job here I'll share the power point we were presented. LOL

Does that include snow coverage of panels and cloudy days?


Originally posted by theken
It can eliminate your electrical bill completely, and you can sell back unused electricity, you could actually make 30-50 a month, but, they have about a shelf life of I think 10 years on the panels (maybe 20 I'm not positive, it's been a while since I looked) and your panels are expensive to replace. I would do it when price comes down substantially, and longevity is improved.

For 600kwh @ 6 cent, that's $36. There is usually as much admin fees on top. Say $70 total. To offset this , you need to generate at least 1200kwh/month. According to Cos's map, our potential is 1200kwh per year. Not even close.


IMO solar panel on a giant 3000 sq ft house is basically driving a Tesla. It's green washing and doesn't make actual dollar and sense. More saying "I care enough to throw money at it but don't care enough to actually reduce my footprint and make a real change."

[Seth1968]

Degradation of the panels, a battery house nightmare, snow, etc...

[LLLimit]

lets instead get to a real life example.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/3r9of3/is_there_anyone_in_calgary_who_has_solar_panels/

u/LordDrakken has data on his calgary installation:
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/GSMz94049/overview

[kenny]

Many of the solar systems in Calgary share their stats (not sure if that's the default) but here is an Enmax installed system in Calgary:

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/BP3e18133/overview

You can see the daily generation numbers since July. It is next to nothing in the winter months. With 6 panels, this setup has generated 7.06MWh since 2010. I think that's like 8-9 months of average electricity use? I could be wrong. I am way above average at my house (that's enough for about 6 months for me).

Not sure what Jordan's take is on this, but I'm pretty sure a system like this won't add any substantial value to the house.

[Cos]

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[ExtraSlow]

Quite a few years ago, i was involved with equipping some remote worksites with solar panels in central and northern Alberta. At the time, we elected to go with 100% vertical panels to a) remove the issue of snow accumulation and b) make installation the same at every site.
These were sites where we had small batteries (basically RV batteries) to store the excess, but once those were charged, we couldn't sell any back to the grid. It worked well and was simple as hell.

Tweaking angles a degree or two is certainly worthwhile when you have a PV installation that can do net-metering or when it is undersized for the total possible load.

[mr2mike]

Did check out all the links in this thread but there was a house in Scenic Acres back in the 90s that went all enviro. I wonder if all those things still exist of have been removed?

http://www.ecobuildings.net/qtvr.php.html

9211 Scurfield Dr NW Calgary if anyone wants to google it.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by mr2mike
Did check out all the links in this thread but there was a house in Scenic Acres back in the 90s that went all enviro. I wonder if all those things still exist of have been removed?

http://www.ecobuildings.net/qtvr.php.html

9211 Scurfield Dr NW Calgary if anyone wants to google it.
Remember taking a class field trip there circa 2002? I would bet it's not that easy to add flushing toilets afterwards...

[revelations]

I would rather invest $25k in a geothermal system than solar. We have such a wide range of temps (-30 to + 30) that pulling a constant 4-5 degree C liquid out of the ground into a heat pump to heat/cool makes so much more sense.

[gwill]

Landmark homes pushes the green enviro friendly homes with the options on solar panels. I believe I saw their upgrade cost at around $12k. Even though they are a large volume builder they can't get their solar costs low enough where it makes sense installing them in every home. Like others have pointed out on the math if you only live in a house for 5-10 years and spend $25k to save 13-14k then why do it?

If it actually saved home owners money landmark would be putting them in all of their homes.

[kenny]

It's never about the economics, even Enmax mentions it if you dig through all their info. It's for people to feel better about themselves and lessening their own impact on the environment.

No different than people who check the box to purchase carbon credits to offset their their impact from taking a flight. You definitely aren't saving money :rofl:

I've seen some other builders offer solar panel / solar water heater rough-ins as well. I'd say that's a good investment when building as you can advertise that as a feature for those that care and the cost is minimal.

[Seth1968]

I'm all for alternative energy, but this notion of solar is currently a load of crap.

Never mind the initial cost of 20 to 40 K, now what about snow, hail, and those pesky environmental nightmares called batteries?

Rev mentioned geothermal. Now we're getting somewhere.

[Kjonus]

If you're interested in chatting with a guy about an install the owner of http://www.migeneration.ca/index.html is a friend of mine he's based out of Airdrie.

[Cos]

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[KPHMPH]

A lot of good information here guys. Thanks.

Still going to look into it with 3 different quotes.

[suntan]

Originally posted by Cos
First the unit if measure is different on a the us map. Just happens to be the same colours. Second heat doesn't affect it 'a bit' it has great effect on the output. Voltage output isn't what matters, the thermal efficiency of the cell is on the current output. The different of 1W per cell is huge. Especially since each panel is made up of many cells.


http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/how-heat-affects-solar-panel-efficiency

:dunno: 25% seems pretty big to me. The takeaway you should be getting from the map is that despite any concerns abut heat, the hottest parts of the US are still the best places for solar power.

[suntan]

Originally posted by Cos


No it assumes a new panel. However what we were told is that both our elevation help that since we have to incline them quite a bit as well as the panels do retain some heat so should melt for the most part.

Edit: I should address the fact that the REDDIT guy mentions cleaning them off. That is because they aren't mounted at the optimal angle. If they were mounted properly (see the Bassano installation I mention above) you'd see why snow would very rarely stick. At the very least you have to remove any sort of debris. Something like a leaf fragment will destroy a panel.

[Seth1968]

Article from the Lethbridge Herald today:

Going off-grid begins with conservation (http://lethbridgeherald.com/news/local-news/2015/12/11/going-off-grid-begins-with-conservation/)

He touches upon the massive amounts of battery storage needed, but ignores the dangers, memory loss, replacement, and recycling of such. Nor does he mention snow, hail, or regular cleaning in regards to the panels.

[nzwasp]

So on the weekend we went to that new suburb in the ne called Cityscape by Mattamy homes - I was interested to see their net zero show home. When we turned up they said that it wasnt one of their regular show homes but was off site (actually was 50m from the other show homes) and we had to be let in specially.

Straight away I could tell that the builder was not invested in this project at all.

According to the salesman they had only built 5 - were not planning at building anymore in the city at all - he didnt know much about them at all. There was no gas line into the house at all though, the solar panels on the roof and garage took care of power for the entire house as well as providing all the heat. All the appliances in the house were just normal - there was nothing special about them, all the houses were approx 1700 squarefeet and retailed for about $459k.

I was pretty disappointed that they weren't more on board with building them for their customers if requested because there had been so many articles in the media about how they were leading the way with building net zero houses.

[revelations]

Originally posted by nzwasp
I was pretty disappointed that they weren't more on board with building them for their customers if requested because there had been so many articles in the media about how they were leading the way with building net zero houses.

100% about company optics and local politics.

[ZenOps]

Batteries are usually a big turnoff.

Assuming some sort of lead-acid setup, its surprisingly dangerous from a safety perspective. That's why Elon Musk was and still is trying to push the Tesla Powerwall.

Even so, the Powerwall is still significantly higher risk than the grid. All you need to do is accidentally smash one of those battery packs with a car (they are usually right inside a garage) and kaboom, there goes the house up in flames.

Got a defective battery? You are probably breathing in lead laced acid, or leaking it on the floor for the pets or kids to find. Defective lithium ion leaking? Not much better.

100 Kilograms of Nickel Manganese Cobalt (Tesla powerwall) No idea how safe or not safe it is. Lower toxicity than Lead acid, and less chance of sponatenous fire like lithium. But if everyone wanted a powerwall, only about 0.5% of the US population could have one, just because there isn't enough nickel or cobalt to make them.

Smash a grid outlet, and the fuse will trip in less than a quarter second - in otherwords completely safe.

BTW: Save your nickels.