Making A Murderer

[dezmarez]

Anyone watch this Documentary Series on Netflix?

I would highly recommend it!

[mdeleon]

I watched it, such a crazy story, it doesn't seem real, feels like a plot right out of a movie.

[OTown]

Interesting... but lets just take it with a grain of salt. Seems to be very one sided.

Now the prosecutor is getting death threats over this.

http://wgntv.com/2015/12/24/prosecutor-says-he-is-getting-death-threats-over-netflix-documentary/

[funkedelic2]

One sided as told by the producers? Maybe but I believe the whole case was one sided. The prosecution as well as the victims family had a chance to be more involved and have their say in the documentary but declined to do so. Even so, the whole trail was a debacle and a complete embarrassment to the police officials involved. The judge was biased and to be completely honest, Avery had no chance from the beginning. It didn't matter what was introduced, how the prosecution was discredited, the complete lack of physical and incriminating evidence. No one believed this guy or wanted to see him walk in case he really was guilty and someone else may have gotten hurt as a result of not putting the monster he was portrayed as behind bars. The whole thing was really disgusting and made me worry for humanity. It was one of the most intriguing and addictive series I have ever watched!

[finboy]

I get that the story is interesting, but the lack of justice in the us judicial system isn't new. The whole time watching this, all I could think was "there are a lot of people in jail right now who could use a 10 part documentary than this guy"

You can't have the incarceration rate that America has without a significant number of people behind bars who don't belong there, welcome to the downside of "tough on crime" :dunno:

[lsc2g]

its straight out of a movie for sure!

i don't doubt the state gets a ton of pressure on both cases after this one but who knows..

[rage2]

Coles Notes Version: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104952/

Seriously, good documentary. I still dunno if buddy did it or not. If I was in the jury, there was definitely reasonable doubt that he didn't do it. This isn't just from evidence in the show, I cruised through some of the available case files as well.

[lasimmon]

One of the Jurors that was excused mentioned that 3 or so of the Jurors went into the trial thinking they were guilty and wouldn't change their minds or have an open mind apparently.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I have only just started watching, but I've heard there is a bunch of info they left out of the documentary that changes things - is this true? If so that makes it kind of pointless.

[EK 2.0]

Man watching this thing made my blood boil by the 4th episode in...

And I understand it was me and my vantage point versus those of them IN the actual case...

But man oh man, how could they (the prosecution) NOT see the injustices...just mind blowing haha...

[Quizzes]

What gets me was when they were questioning the DNA analyst.
Well... the samples were contaminated so results weren't accurate, but we used our common sense. :nut:

[riander5]

Great show - easy to get into if you listened to the whole Serial podcast.

This seemed a bit more cut and dry that it was police interfering with the case - Serial leaves you with more of an :dunno: feeling

[msommers]

On episode 3 only but I'm losing my shit over here.

Also, note possible spoilers:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/05/arts/television/ken-kratz-making-a-murderer.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.ca/

http://www.thewrap.com/making-a-murderer-filmmakers-fire-back-at-prosecutor-hes-not-entitled-to-his-own-facts/

[GotRice?]

this show is insane. i started it at 12am and finished it the same day....

[max_boost]

I'm sure the jail system is profitable right? Everything is for profit in America. :nut: :dunno:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I have only just started watching, but I've heard there is a bunch of info they left out of the documentary that changes things - is this true? If so that makes it kind of pointless.
Nah, can't say much more without spoilers, but the stuff the documentary left out doesn't really change much, compared to the stuff that was inadmissible in court.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by rage2

Nah, can't say much more without spoilers, but the stuff the documentary left out doesn't really change much, compared to the stuff that was inadmissible in court.

Good to know, thanks. I'll probably keep watching, sounds like most people really like it.

[max_boost]

Can't stop watching. This is ridiculous lol :eek:

[CompletelyNumb]

Stuff was left out, but they didn't change what was shown. The amount of secrecy, perjury and incompetence in this case is astounding.

Awesome documentary.

[BrknFngrs]

Admittedly I haven't watched it, but an article I read suggested they left out some graphic details of events that paint a less than rosy view of him. Something along the lines of him beating a cat, dousing it in fuel and then throwing it into a campfire while it was still alive.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
Stuff was left out, but they didn't change what was shown. The amount of secrecy, perjury and incompetence in this case is astounding.


So true, but you forgot that $10,000 passed under the table.

Let us not forget the shredding of documents, and even just one simple fact: Who the fuck claims to be on the working people's side. You and kids will starve to death, while raising some moronic flag.

And now True DOH!

When elected, shows the moronic grandstanding at the Paris (lies) that makes Canada the laughing stock of just about everything.

Welcome to Plutocracy.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
Admittedly I haven't watched it, but an article I read suggested they left out some graphic details of events that paint a less than rosy view of him. Something along the lines of him beating a cat, dousing it in fuel and then throwing it into a campfire while it was still alive.
They didn't leave that out. They talked about that. And you have the facts not quite right. Theres no arguing the guy isn't the most intelligent out there and a pretty big loser...but...you just have to watch it and come to your own conclusions.

[nonofyobiz]

Originally posted by Seth1968


So true, but you forgot that $10,000 passed under the table.

Let us not forget the shredding of documents, and even just one simple fact: Who the fuck claims to be on the working people's side. You and kids will starve to death, while raising some moronic flag.

And now True DOH!

When elected, shows the moronic grandstanding at the Paris (lies) that makes Canada the laughing stock of just about everything.

Welcome to Plutocracy.

What?:english:

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
Admittedly I haven't watched it, but an article I read suggested they left out some graphic details of events that paint a less than rosy view of him. Something along the lines of him beating a cat, dousing it in fuel and then throwing it into a campfire while it was still alive.

They cover that

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by nonofyobiz


What?:english:
:werd: I swear, he's turning into Thales of Miletus. About to add one more to the ignore list.

[firebane]

Watched the first episode and really have no idea what the big deal is about this. Just another documentary about someone in the states that apparently in the end he is still in prison.

I think society gets to wrapped up in knowing whats happened with other people because they are too bored or don't have enough excitement themselves.

[dj_rice]

I watched it. Very good documentary. But what they did to Brendan...was not right.

[OTown]

Originally posted by firebane
Watched the first episode and really have no idea what the big deal is about this. Just another documentary about someone in the states that apparently in the end he is still in prison.

I think society gets to wrapped up in knowing whats happened with other people because they are too bored or don't have enough excitement themselves.

I just finished watching the first episode. Its interesting but nothing unheard of - so far.

Yes, dont get me wrong. It is unfortunate that this guy spent so long in jail for a crime he didnt commit. But people have to realize that hindsight is 20/20 and at the time there was no DNA evidence to clear him. His case is one of many. Obviously the evidence presented was enough to convict him (including the victim identifying him as the offender), and his questionable and borderline bizarre and psychopathic behavior before the offence definitely didn't help him at all. But line ups like that were done all the time and people were convicted. No one said the criminal system is perfect, but for a heinous crime of attempted murder and sexual assault I think a few things were missed to 'catch the bad guy'. Did the sheriff fuck up? I'd say so, but they have to go with what the victim says in such a case, and that was what the case was built on. The DA had no real choice but to go on with the victim's ID.

These types of cases occured quite a bit during that time period (until the 90's-00') due to lack of DNA forensic evidence, and we are still hearing of people being exonerated from their crimes decades after they were convicted. Its just a byproduct of 'the system' at that time.

Of course this would never happen nowadays. With DNA and other investigative tools, including new photo lineup sequences, the police would have this guy cleared in their investigation. But they didnt have that back then and they had to stick with their guns.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by firebane
Watched the first episode and really have no idea what the big deal is about this. Just another documentary about someone in the states that apparently in the end he is still in prison.

I think society gets to wrapped up in knowing whats happened with other people because they are too bored or don't have enough excitement themselves.
Welp that's pretty much the whole story then! Yup, you've covered it all.
Might as well stop watching, cuz nothing else happens.

:rolleyes:

[01RedDX]

.

[C_Dave45]

I'd like to know who the reporter is in E07 @ the 24:40 mark. She doesn't look like that Angenette Levy, as she's wearing glasses.
(Tried to do a screen shot, but DRM wouldn't let me)
But holy smokes!!:poosie: :poosie:

*edit: Ahh it IS her! Wow. She looked a lot better in the live interview than the BroBible site pic

http://cdn.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/05/ee8e8eaf40e19f51.png

[dj_rice]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
The ex-bf and brother "guessing" her voicemail password and erasing messages - WTF? The vial of blood, Manitowoc cops tampering with the scene, etc, etc.

In any case, he should be re-tried as that trial was an absolute farce. I could see the local authorities going to great lengths to railroad him, again, in order to prevent the huge payout.




When the vial of blood thing was opened by Avery's lawyers I thought it was a done deal innocent. Can they still re-test the blood in the RAV4 now to see if it contains whatever chemical it is to keep it liquid in that vile again?

[max_boost]

Originally posted by dj_rice



When the vial of blood thing was opened by Avery's lawyers I thought it was a done deal innocent. Can they still re-test the blood in the RAV4 now to see if it contains whatever chemical it is to keep it liquid in that vile again?

Yup. I believe so. The testing of the blood involving the FBI etc.

The entire thing was a sham.

I don't rule out greater forces. Perhaps as simple as sacrificing Stephen Avery vs bringing down the entire Police force. Who knows.

When you argue Police corruption in a small town, I would not want to be one of the jurors who voted to free SA. You might as well pack up your shit and gtfo. The fear is real. :nut: :dunno:

[max_boost]

As for the nephew. You simply cringe watching those interrogation videos. Fail all the way around. :facepalm:

[msommers]

The chemist outlined the EDTA pretty well: the FBI can't say with 100% certainty there isn't EDTA in the blood sample because it either could be their detection levels aren't fine enough or the test itself isn't very good. I mean ya the sample might not have any but even the smear pattern looked really bizarre, especially by the ignition. With the seemingly obvious case of innocent until proven guilty, I don't understand how the EDTA not being detectable without 100% certainty was a case against Avery. Why no cameras in the clerk's office? Whoever tampered with that, how is it so accessible without seemingly anyone being able to trace who it was?!

When it comes to law enforcement committing crimes, or usually trying to sweep their mistakes under the rug (hey they're human too), this is just another case of helping one another out. Because at the end of the day if citizens can't trust law enforcement as a majority, chaos would ensue and we're back in the wild west. So even when they have fucked up, and it seems pretty obvious, they will go to great lengths to ensure it doesn't look that bad or suggest such ambiguity it gets lost in translation as years pass.

In the end I think the Mantiowac police force didn't want to look the fool and looked to restore certainty within the force so they really wanted to nail him any way they could. Investigator Lenk I think is the mastermind behind it all and I don't think he had much if any help at all. Whenever he is on the stand, he looks very stressed. Colbourn I don't think was involved, I just think he is an idiot at wrong place/wrong time.

The question I'm really struggling with, even to throw out an answer I'm completely pulling out of my ass, is why this girl? And also why does the police force there hate him so fucking much?

The defense did a great job in this case. The media really made Avery look guilty before the fucking trial even started.

[max_boost]

Yup. I agree. Why this girl? Also who the fuck did it then?
:nut: :dunno:

[dj_rice]

Originally posted by max_boost
Yup. I agree. Why this girl? Also who the fuck did it then?
:nut: :dunno:


In the series, didnt they talk a little bit about her having a "stalker" of some sort? I remember one of her co-workers saying Theresa and her were talking and someone called her cell and she would reply with "oh not him again" and would always reject his calls. Unless she was referred to Steven Avery? DUN DUN DUN....

[Clever]

There was a mention of a person who the victim was knowingly trying to avoid. I don't think she would've gone to his property to take pictures if Avery was the person "harassing" her.

[nonofyobiz]

Originally posted by max_boost


When you argue Police corruption in a small town, I would not want to be one of the jurors who voted to free SA. You might as well pack up your shit and gtfo. The fear is real. :nut: :dunno:

THIS 100%. They never stood a chance at a fair trial in Manitowoc or the neighboring county. Also the fact that when the Jury began deliberations the vote was 6 or 7 in favor of Steven Avery and only 3 were against. It's scary how dead set people can be in their beliefs and their thinking...I can totally see how they could just be worn down and pressured a certain way. Like that excused juror said...the weaker/smaller personalities getting pushed around by the larger more stubborn personalities. So to me it looks like the defense won....until jurors were allowed to influence each other. It seems like a shitty way to do it.

The thing is...was he really innocent? It s really hard to tell... my thoughts are that it would be a pretty tough thing to orchestrate by the police entirely, or if she was killed by someone else....I dunno just seems unlikely unless there is a reasonably suspect. Maybe it was his brother or something? lol
My thoughts are there is a TON of reasonable doubt here and given that it's pretty obvious some evidence was tampered with and likely planted and some very unusual police practices..the case should have been thrown out.

Also, looking at his behavior after the fact...he is pouring over his own case files looking for something and trying to defend himself....doesn't seem like something a guilty person would do.

Anyone have a link to info on that evidence that was left out?

[SOAB]

seriously, the key found in his trailer in plain sight after days of searching turned up nothing. no DNA on this key other than Avery. she used this key for years and even her DNA wasn't on it?

blood in her car was supposedly from a cut on his finger yet none of his fingerprints were found which means if he did do it, he was wearing gloves so how did his cut on the finger smear blood in the car? WTF. :banghead:

[Squishy]

I saw in some of the posts above what other crimes he did, but it really made me wonder what else he did that the judge was speaking of during the verdict from the jury that led them to believe he would reoffend if it was actually him that committed the murder of Theresa.

[Despair*]

Originally posted by SOAB
seriously, the key found in his trailer in plain sight after days of searching turned up nothing. no DNA on this key other than Avery. she used this key for years and even her DNA wasn't on it?

blood in her car was supposedly from a cut on his finger yet none of his fingerprints were found which means if he did do it, he was wearing gloves so how did his cut on the finger smear blood in the car? WTF. :banghead:

My exact thoughts as well. Both him and his nephew have such a low IQ they'd never have be able be smart enough to pull of a crime like this. They'd never be able to professionally eliminate all traces of DNA and evidence. So many inconsistencies in the evidence it's scary how they can convict on all that.

Also what made me bang my head was that last episode when they show that his nephews original defense lawyer was working with the prosecutor for his uncles trial. And the Investigator was working on both cases. Not only that, but the investigators email turns up about his issues with the 'Avery family Lifestyle'/inbreeding and condemning them. Pretty sick stuff.

[max_boost]

Not to mention her DNA wasn't found anywhere inside the bedroom or trailer where she supposedly got raped and stabbed. Oh yes they had a few days to clean it up according to the prosecution team. Dude this isn't how to get away with murder where they can clean the entire living room and not leave a trace. This ain't Hollywood!

[SOAB]

they dug up the crack in the concrete of the garage and found no trace of her blood or any DNA at all! this is supposedly where they cut her throat, shot her, etc. blood would've been all over that place yet they found nothing.

I hate watching this show right before bed because it just gets my blood boiling and then I can't sleep for a while. :rofl:

[msommers]

My GF was cleaning up crime scenes for a bit and when we were watching that she lost her shit lol. Between the bedroom and the garage, it would have taken someone with a lot of clean up knowledge and a lot of hours to be that thorough.

The lack of blood on the mattress is still a big gapping hole too. What he switched mattresses, bedframe etc?

Gah I'm just getting pissed off typing this :rofl:

SOAB we have issues :rofl:

[Quizzes]

I don't think the police actually killed her, but they know who did and conveniently staged it so the fingers can be pointed to Steven Avery.

I'm not sure if her roommate was ever interviewed or questioned, but the defense should've asked him to take the stand when they had the ex there as well. I think the defense's mistake in the case was going right after the whole Manitowoc sheriff's department instead of trying to weed out another suspect for the court and jury to decide on.

Another mistake is to agree on the selected jury within its own county. The Averys already have a bad rep amongst the citizens living there, so they've already formed a biased opinion before the trial even started. Had they selected the jury outside Manitowoc, it might have helped with the bias.

[spikerS]

yeah, it kinda pissed me off too.

His lawyer was an ass.

The key was the damning thing to me. 7 searches to find it. Cops stating it wasn't there before and then it was found on the 7th run through, when the escort from the other county wasn't present. Only DNA found on the key was Avery's. yeah....and where was hers?

Then the interrogation of Brandon. WTF was all that about? How is ANY of that admissible?

but, the one thing that kinda bugged me. The Rav 4 was pretty damn close to the crusher. Avery knew how to use it. He could have pancaked it between a couple mini vans, and no one would have found it. And then the really shitty attempt to hide it under a handfull of dead branches and a broken pallet. To me, it was planted there, and same with the bones.

The prosecutor's final arguments sent me through the roof too. To believe the defense was to say the cops killed her? W.T.F. I can't believe statements like that are allowed to be made like that.

I don't have all the facts, or anything, but what is presented in this in my mind is way more than enough to create a more than reasonable doubt, and implicates so much of the police force and judicial system in wrong doing...

I won't comment on if he is guilty or not, but the handling of this case could have been done better by 4 year olds in preschool.

I tagged the entire thing as a spoiler. Deal with it.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Quizzes
I don't think the police actually killed her, but they know who did and conveniently staged it so the fingers can be pointed to Steven Avery.


That is exactly my thoughts too.

They probably know who the real killer is, and have them for something else which puts them behind bars for a long time.

which lets them point the finger at SA, and stage things so that they don't have egg on their face.

[SOAB]

Originally posted by Quizzes

I'm not sure if her roommate was ever interviewed or questioned, but the defense should've asked him to take the stand when they had the ex there as well. I think the defense's mistake in the case was going right after the whole Manitowoc sheriff's department instead of trying to weed out another suspect for the court and jury to decide on.

Another mistake is to agree on the selected jury within its own county. The Averys already have a bad rep amongst the citizens living there, so they've already formed a biased opinion before the trial even started. Had they selected the jury outside Manitowoc, it might have helped with the bias.

The defense was told by the judge that they were not allowed to point fingers at other suspects during their arguments. :banghead:

[CompletelyNumb]

I wouldn't be shocked if the police killed her.

The audio of when the car was found was pretty damning. Woman missing for three days. "Oh hey we found her car at the junk yard" "...do you have Steven Avery in custody yet?".

Arrested for a car being found a junk yard your family owns? He was a scapegoat the entire time.

[Quizzes]

Originally posted by SOAB


The defense was told by the judge that they were not allowed to point fingers at other suspects during their arguments. :banghead:

My bad. I must've missed that part.

:banghead: nonetheless

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
I wouldn't be shocked if the police killed her.

The audio of when the car was found was pretty damning. Woman missing for three days. "Oh hey we found her car at the junk yard" "...do you have Steven Avery in custody yet?".

Arrested for a car being found a junk yard your family owns? He was a scapegoat the entire time.

I especially liked the part where that one sherrif was calling in the license plate number, and then before dispatch answered him he says "A 2004 RAV?" As if he was standing there looking at it. This was 4 days BEFORE they found the car in the yard.

[01RedDX]

.

[max_boost]

Thoughts on the brother Mike Halbech? He likes the attention?

[SOAB]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


But remember, the prosecution claimed that bleach was used to destroy the blood evidence in the garage. Bleach is one of the few things that can truly erase any evidence of blood and of course, they did find Brendan's bleach-stained jeans.

Then there's the fact that Avery had called Halbach three times the day of the murder — twice with a star 67 number! Why?

/devil's advocate




for sure bleach could clean it but they also state that the garage is where they shot her in the head. if shooting someone at close range, there would've been blood splatter on all the junk in there. there is no trace of any blood, anywhere.

[ExtremeSi]

Originally posted by max_boost
Thoughts on the brother Mike Halbech? He likes the attention?

He seemed very suspicious to me. And her ex-boyfriend when I first saw him. The defense even brought up the fact that one of the first suspects in a murder is usually the boyfriend. What was with the cell phone records missing? And I'm amazed that they were able to hack into her online cell account that easily.

The judge ruled before the trial started that the defense was not allowed to bring up or point fingers at possible other suspects. Apparently due to some law in WI. Strange.

Apparently Steven's theory now is one or two of his brother's did it and framed him for it. They have histories with violence towards women and they didn't like Steven. Would be pretty easy to set him up.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a season 2 in the future. Might have to wait a few years though seeing how slow the justice system moves. The series is getting a ton of attention now that it has been released and there's talk of a high profile post-conviction lawyer taking up Steven's case pro bono now.

[msommers]

I hope so because the guy deserves it, his whole life has been in the wrong place without his wrongdoing. I really don't think Steve did it because, and I shouldn't assume, but quite frankly I think he's too stupid to do it and try to cover up as much as it would appear he attempted to.

Leaving out the police tampering with anything, I just dont believe Steve could of done all this in such a short amount of time in such thorough and systematic order.

[nonofyobiz]

So he's intelligent enough to very thoroughly clean up ALL THE BLOOD and DNA evidence, but not smart enough to get rid of the vehicle and he essentially 'hides' it in his own yard. :banghead:

[killramos]

Not to mention leaving the key beside his bed :rofl:

[sxtasy]

Also the cop described violently shaking the desk and the key somehow popped out from behind it. Yet in the picture of the key, the desk still contains books and other objects neatly placed inside and on top :dunno:

[nonofyobiz]

Branden Dassy's stepfather did it?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/10/making-a-murderer-meet-the-men-steven-avery-thinks-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach.html

more controversy....questionable jurors
http://www.bustle.com/articles/133708-what-a-steven-avery-juror-claims-casts-questions-over-the-jury-selection-in-the-murder-trial

[msommers]

I'd be more inclined to believe it was Scott Tadych. The questioning with the bus driver and his story (which was incredibly confident to the point of hilarity) were totally different.

I dunno he just seems like a creep too lol.

[nonofyobiz]

Scott tadych = the Dassey boys step father don't it?

[msommers]

I believe so. I was agreeing, although didn't say so. My bad :)

It's interesting how many comments I've read on this. Especially from the people claiming to work in crime scene investigation, law enforcement and lawyers. Everyone is just dumbfounded how poorly this whole thing was investigated. The forensic anthropologists said it pretty plainly, they handled it like shit and was not up to standard. And that's just one piece of the puzzle here.

A giant fucking gongshow to say the very least. Still sucks that Avery is in jail again. He's probably not a saint by any means and clearly his gf/fiance wasn't either but some serious hate must have started all from that sheriff's wife/gf way back when? I dunno, it's mind boggling this is real and not just made up shit for TV.

[theken]

As soon as that boy said he saw that dude going hunting I assumed one of them did it.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by msommers
.

A giant fucking gongshow to say the very least. Still sucks that Avery is in jail again. He's probably not a saint by any means and clearly his gf/fiance wasn't either but some serious hate must have started all from that sheriff's wife/gf way back when? I dunno, it's mind boggling this is real and not just made up shit for TV.

Agreed.

If one of the issues that came up in trial had been the only questionable issue then it would be tough to argue that he didn't do it. But its just one thing after another after another after another.... :nut:

[OTown]

So I just finished watching the full series. I feel like, with the evidence shown in the documentary Avery most likely did it. But I also think the documentary did a poor job of showing prosecutoral evidence and it deem seem very biased.

I feel like they conveniently left out (or at times glanced over):

Avery had a 'creepy' history with Halbach, including meeting her in just a towel, stalking her, calling her - she stating she would never work for him again as she was creeped out
Avery had called Holbech 3 times that day, hiding his number with a *67 feature
Avery used a fake name to have Autotrader send Halbach to the yard for a 'vehicle'
Avery's rifle was analyzed and the bullet with Halbach's DNA on it was shot from the rifle in question
Avery's sweat was also found in the car
Avery has a long history of violence towards women, including stalking, assaults, pointing a gun, and sending letters uttering death threats - blames women on his false imprisonment
Avery had inside the trailer an AutoTrader bill of sale which had been brought there by Halbach
Avery had just recently bought shackles/handcuffs and was in his possession
Avery once killed a cat by burning it after dousing it in gasoline to "watch it suffer"
Avery told fellow inmates he wanted to 'build a torture chamber' when he got out
Avery had been seen by 2 people dropping items into a fire which turned out to be Halbach's phone & purse
Bleach could have very easily been used to clean the blood from all areas, and a 22 rifle would very unlikely had much blood splatter

Also, whether you believe her or not, this interview just came out yesterday:
HTz673OMTF0

Jodi, Avery's ex, has an opinion that he's guilty. Interesting to hear another perspective. Sounds like some serious domestic violence and jealousy issues in the Avery home.

Also sounds like Avery was supposed to pick her up on that day but did not show up.

All in all my opinion of the documentary is that it does outline the delicate balance between the justice system and true justice. It does show some of the downfalls of the american system, and how any human system will have its loopholes and failures. Its unfortunate but it does happen.

At the end of the day I just feel that a documentary that is constantly poking holes and accusing the police and prosecution of 'missing information' that they in return ironically missed a huge opportunity to be as transparent as possible. I just feel like its a bit biased, but understand that they were most likely on some sort of time restraint.

It was an entertaining and neat series, but I just find it hard to believe it. I realize that, yet again, I might be the Devil's advocate here. Take my opinion as it is, and opinion. I just find it extremely hard to believe that 2 seperate police departments along with the FBI, or some family member, conceived this idea of murdering a young female and framing steven avery.

[[Yu]]

Avery's DNA was found in the car/hood. None of it was proven to be sweat or blood I believe.

Bleach does not remove blood and DNA. Even if you bleach the whole place, they have a way of detecting any traces of blood.

My question to you is, how does one person shoot another in a setting with so much other random things around, and is able to clean it perfectly clean.

[SOAB]

sure, the blood inside the RAV 4 was Avery's blood but how do you explain having none of his fingerprints?

the supposed bloody scene in the garage was meticulously cleaned up by Avery. every single drop of blood disappeared without a trace, yet he just hides her vehicle under some branches?

the vial of blood from the county's evidence room had been tampered with as well. sure, the blood was supposedly tested but every other scientist said the test should've been deemed inconclusive, unlike what the FBI came back with.

they key wasn't found for days while the cops had searched the house inside and out and just happened to be found by a Manitowoc sheriff that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

the bullet fragment that was found 4 months after the original search found no DNA of either person on it.

the Manitowoc sheriff's were caught in numerous lies during the trial about timelines and details of what supposedly happened.

other than the BLANK bill of sale and the key, there was no DNA evidence that Halbech was ever in Avery's trailer. it was only his brother-in-law (that doesn't like him BTW) that ever said he saw Halbech walking towards the trailer.

it was suggested by the prosecutor that the stalker was Avery, but nothing was every proven. maybe Halbech's boyfriend or brother decided that those voicemails were not needed so they deleted them when they were able to "guess" her password?

how in the world does he use a fake name to get her to come out the Avery compound? everybody in town knows who lives there. the road is named after them!

it doesn't take 2 whole police departments to frame someone. all it takes is 1 or 2 people that know the system and can manipulate things during the investigation.

[nonofyobiz]

Originally posted by OTown

I feel like they conveniently left out (or at times glanced over):

Avery had a 'creepy' history with Halbach, including meeting her in just a towel, stalking her, calling her - she stating she would never work for him again as she was creeped out
Avery had called Holbech 3 times that day, hiding his number with a *67 feature
Avery used a fake name to have Autotrader send Halbach to the yard for a 'vehicle'
Avery's rifle was analyzed and the bullet with Halbach's DNA on it was shot from the rifle in question
Avery's sweat was also found in the car
Avery has a long history of violence towards women, including stalking, assaults, pointing a gun, and sending letters uttering death threats - blames women on his false imprisonment
Avery had inside the trailer an AutoTrader bill of sale which had been brought there by Halbach
Avery had just recently bought shackles/handcuffs and was in his possession
Avery once killed a cat by burning it after dousing it in gasoline to "watch it suffer"
Avery told fellow inmates he wanted to 'build a torture chamber' when he got out
Avery had been seen by 2 people dropping items into a fire which turned out to be Halbach's phone & purse
Bleach could have very easily been used to clean the blood from all areas, and a 22 rifle would very unlikely had much blood splatter

...
It was an entertaining and neat series, but I just find it hard to believe it. I realize that, yet again, I might be the Devil's advocate here. Take my opinion as it is, and opinion. I just find it extremely hard to believe that 2 separate police departments along with the FBI, or some family member, conceived this idea of murdering a young female and framing steven avery.

First off i want to say that, if you believe Avery was framed for this murder, that doesn't mean that 2 different police departments and the FBI were in on it. It's pretty tough for the defense to prove Avery's innocence and NOT be able to follow other leads... it's laughable actually. So in the judgement of the Judge presiding over the case, there wasn't enough evidence to point to a another person killing the girl so they were not even allowed to argue that point (i believe this is how the law in Wisconsin works from what I've read). Anyways, the defense had to suggest that he was framed by manitowac county police and they stated they believed it was the work of 2 or 3 individuals, the ones who had motive, the ones who stood to be personally and professionally held responsible for Avery's earlier wrongful conviction via the civil lawsuit against them. their lives were about to be completely ruined and they were desperate...i don't think it's hard to imagine. So as far as the neighboring county sheriffs department... I doubt they were IN on it, but as fellow officers I believe they very easily can look the other way or just avoid asking questions. Gotta remember these are smaller communities...people know each other. Some low level deputy wouldn't go around telling these other cops (who shouldn't have even been around there) 'hey don't touch that', or 'hey what are you doing over there?' or raising suspicion about them. They are very much on the same team and going against that would be very difficult for a person. Also the FBI just hurried out this test to check for that chemical in the blood, I think because they believed he was guilty - because these other cops said he was guilty, and it was sort of a professional courtesy to help out this other law enforcement organisation.


Regarding all the points listed above about Avery and the stuff the docu apparently left out...where did you get all that information? I don't remember that stuff in the series, can you provide a link? I've tried doing some searches but nothing turned up.

All i remember was the thing about the cat.
him threatening his first wife when he was in jail.

When did it say that Avery was harassing the girl? When did it say that HE was the one that made those phone calls? They mentioned the phone calls but there was no evidence they were from him.

What about the story that the Tadych guy trying to sell that .22 rifle?

I disagree about any "long history of violent towards woman" ...again, where did u get that from?
How do u know how that bill of sale got there and why is that so out of the ordinary? how does that contribute to the evidence that he brutally raped and killed this girl?
Shackles and handcuffs? don't remember anything about that.
who saw him dropping items into the fire that turned out to be the phone and purse? how the hell would anyone be able to see that and how does the fact that someone may have saw from a distance him throwing 2 items into the fire prove that the purse and phone weren't planted there...unless u were RIGHT there, and saw a purse and phone being thrown into the fire by Avery then that is useless info.

If she was killed in the garage or bedroom there would be some blood, he would have had to burn down his trailer.

WHERE THE FUCK IS THERESA'S BLOOD? lol This is a fcking trailer trash dim wit....not Dexter Morgan.

Yes the documentary is biased, it is presenting evidence from the bias of him being innocent and wrongfully convicted. aren't all documentaries starting off from a point of bias?

[theken]

I would like to see the court transcription, hear all of the evidence that was given and decide from there. After watching it though I strongly believe it was the 2 that saw each other on the highway at supposedly different times

[nonofyobiz]

Steven Avery's probably so fcked in the head by now it'd be better to just keep him in there. :confused:

I don't even know what to think after listening to this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTr_70rMSCo

[rage2]

Originally posted by theken
I would like to see the court transcription, hear all of the evidence that was given and decide from there. After watching it though I strongly believe it was the 2 that saw each other on the highway at supposedly different times
You should be able to buy it through PACER. That's how I got all those Banerjee court docs years ago.

Edit - Reddit says it was never filed in PACER. Odd.

Edit2 - you can buy it from manitowoc county for $6k.

http://fusion.net/story/252835/manitowoc-making-a-murderer-records/

[nonofyobiz]

Ya 6 week × 5 days a week × hrs per day.....? No thx

[16hypen3sp]

Just finished it.

Lenk and Colborn did it.

But I don't really trust police anymore so I'm biased.



Is Travis Vader going to be the subject in Making a Murderer: Canadian Edition........?

[asp integra]

After watching I feel that the police/lenk/colborne did it. I wonder how high up it goes. The Judge seemed to be in on it as well. Such a fucked up story. Insane to me that Brendan was guilty on all counts as well.

[01RedDX]

.

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Any bets that tonight's SNL is doing a skit on this? With Bobby Moynihan as Steven Avery.

I think ddduke may take that bet...fire him a pm.

[01RedDX]

.

[Weapon_R]

The problem with this show is that you get one slanted account of the story. There is more to it than what the show has let on because there is no interest without controversy.

I also think that although the defense theory was interesting, it distracts from some undisputed facts;

A) Halbach was at Avery's house. We know that 100%.
B) Avery requested that she come and dialed her privately twice.
C) The nephews initial confession was more real to me than his denial. I'm a firm believer that an initial story is more believable than a latter denial. His description of the murder initially was better articulated than his one-word denial later.
D) A woman was murdered, probably on those lands, without a plausible explanation to the contrary.

I am definitely not saying he did it but the story seems to add up when you consider all of the factors. I felt that the conspiracy theory was pushed too hard and fell flat with the EDTA testing. The defense theory that the officers somehow committed the murder or planted evidence to prove Avery did it would have been too large an undertaking in my opinion to pull off. Too many people were involved to suggest they were all in on it without an explanation as to why they would risk it for such little payoff.

[SOAB]

Prior to this trial, EDTA testing was ruled unreliable and would take months for the FBI to figure out a proper test to confirm or deny the EDTA in the blood. yet during the trial, once it was known that the defense was bringing this up, the FBI was able to conjure up some "all new" test within 2 days?

there was never any proof that this chick was killed on that site. forensic scientists testified that the bones were moved to the site they were found in and that it was not the actual burn site. they ignored that testimony as well.

[OTown]

Originally posted by SOAB
Prior to this trial, EDTA testing was ruled unreliable and would take months for the FBI to figure out a proper test to confirm or deny the EDTA in the blood. yet during the trial, once it was known that the defense was bringing this up, the FBI was able to conjure up some "all new" test within 2 days?

there was never any proof that this chick was killed on that site. forensic scientists testified that the bones were moved to the site they were found in and that it was not the actual burn site. they ignored that testimony as well.

What about the evidence that her bones were actually intertwined with the rubber and steel belt from the tires, and thus the tires and bones HAD to have been burned at the site. The doc ignored that as well from the sounds of it.

[msommers]

So I actually just finished watching the series last night.

The one thing that has really struck a chord with me: why would Avery, after being in prison for 6(?) years so far, be going to such lengths to learn law, read through all the case documents and find anything to further his chance at release?

I truly don't know a lot of murder cases and the intimate details of inmates but intuitively, that type of behavior doesn't seem like common practice of guilty parties.

[Pacman]

I'm only on episode 2, but it sounds like Avery should have hired O.J Simpsons lawyers.

[ExtremeSi]

Originally posted by OTown


What about the evidence that her bones were actually intertwined with the rubber and steel belt from the tires, and thus the tires and bones HAD to have been burned at the site. The doc ignored that as well from the sounds of it.

Didn't the expert archaeologist state that the bones could have been thrown on top of the tires and have had the same result?

[SOAB]

she also stated that finding bone fragments at 2 different sites usually means the spot with the majority of the bones is usually the place the bones were moved to, not the original burn site. you can pick up most of the bone fragments after burning but can never get them all.

[shakalaka]

Just finished watching it yesterday and honestly I am absolutely appalled. I am not even ruling out that they might actually be guilty but just the way the due process was done in this case and the convictions obtained, it's shocking. I can't imagine the frustration and angst those defence lawyers must have felt and probably feel. The fact that the appellate courts upheld them and refused to give leave for Supreme Court just exacerbates the whole situation. Absolutely ridiculous.

[civicrider]

What I don't get is that if it started in his house and then she was killed in the garage and burnt just behind it, why is her blood in the back of the SUV? Makes more sense that she was killed and then put in the RAV 4, then taken to another area to be burned. If that is the case Brandens story does not add up at all. And the obvious fact that zero DNA was found in the house or garage.

[msommers]

The key is super fucked. How is there zero DNA of her's from a vehicle she owned but Avery has some DNA on there? In what world would that ever happen?!

[chathamf]

What doesn't make sense to me is apparently this Avery fellow is not very smart. Yet he cleans up entire garage, bedroom, etc. Everything is cleaned perfectly that could link her to being inside Any buildings on his property. A cover up like this is the work of a professional. But then he burns her right outside his trailer? Smears his own blood on her vehicle, but doesn't leave a print? He hides be vehicle on his own property behind branches? But has a vehicle compacter on site? He leaves the key to the vehicle in his room?

How can he do such a good job and such a bad job all at the same time?

[dr_jared88]

Absolutely there is a decent chance that Avery is guilty however I don't think there is anywhere near enough evidence to realistically show that he did. One thing that I am near certain about though is the story about how and where he killed her is not correct.

First a lot of the things as previously stated don't make sense. For example he is too stupid to crush her car with his crusher, yet he cleaned up every last bit of dna and blood from a cluttered garage and trailer.

The other thing that really doesn't make sense to me is the body burning. They claim it is not possible that the bones could have been moved however an open air fire would not get hot enough to burn a body down to that level.

Also the latest claims about the DNA in her vehicle was not only blood but also his sweat. As far as I know there is no DNA is sweat.

[spike98]

Originally posted by msommers
The key is super fucked. How is there zero DNA of her's from a vehicle she owned but Avery has some DNA on there? In what world would that ever happen?!

No only that, but how do they go undiscovered for days during multiple searches and then is suddenly discovered under some slippers that have photographic evidence SHOWN IN COURT that show there weren't keys under the slippers in the days before they were found.

I dont know if Avery is guilty or not but what i do know is that the whole case and trial have so many holes in it that something is fishy. There is reasonable doubt all over the place, gross incompetence of law enforcement, and evidence of misconduct of the DA.

He should never have been convicted and an investigation should have been started into the activities of county police and district attorney.

[msommers]

Agreed. The issue that, at least on the surface, seems to be reoccurring in the county and state is that they are protecting their own and attempting to not lose the public's trust.

We were chatting about this in the office today and we were all trying to make up stories of what actually happened. I through out there that this stalker finally got resistance from her in person and he killed her by accident or in a heat of rage. Tried to cover things up by knowing she was at Avery's before and his history. Perhaps the killer knew someone deeply in law enforcement and went to them after the fact to figure out what to do.

[dr_jared88]

I find this humorous yet creepy at the same time. This guy is a winner

http://gothamist.com/2016/01/19/making_a_murderer_ken_kratz.php

[dansmith11]

I think Halbechs brother did it. Something off about that guy. He has this little smile/smirk on his face half the time when he's answering questions about his dead sister and her killer.

[spike98]

Originally posted by dansmith11
I think Halbechs brother did it. Something off about that guy. He has this little smile/smirk on his face half the time when he's answering questions about his dead sister and her killer.

This! Creep loves to be in the limelight way too much.

Him or Ryan Hillegas (her ex). The stuff about the .22 seems to point that way.

There is also this: http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html

[civicrider]

Originally posted by dansmith11
I think Halbechs brother did it. Something off about that guy. He has this little smile/smirk on his face half the time when he's answering questions about his dead sister and her killer.

Yeah I think hes mad because in that video they showed, she said she loved her sisters but didn't mention her brother. :rofl:

[roopi]

http://i.imgur.com/UOV7v0rl.jpg

[01RedDX]

.

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by 01RedDX

At first I thought it was gonna be wack, but he murdered that track.

I see what you did there.....:bigpimp: