Help Me Be A Plumber

[Mar]

I have this pipe on top of my hot water tank and it's leaking at the knob:

http://www.danmaher.com/images/tank0.jpg

I plan on replacing it but just got the idea if maybe I can cut out both of these pieces and replace them both with a single valve:

http://www.danmaher.com/images/tank2.jpg

I was told by an employee at Rona that I should use this shark bite valve. You just push both ends of the copper pipe into it and somehow it's solid.

http://www.danmaher.com/images/tank1.jpg

I was told I would need slack in the copper line to push it down into the valve, is this enough? The plastic pipe that joins the copper is pretty flexible.

http://www.danmaher.com/images/tank3.jpg

[Skidro]

Good luck

[speedog]

Bottom valve appears to be unused, was probably meant for a humidifier. As far as the main valve replacement, I'd put in a forged ball valve and one that I'd have to sweat in just so I'd have the ease of mind of no future leaks from the joint areas.

As far as replacing both valves with one and pulling down the supply pipe to make up the difference, I wouldn't recommend this because I suspect it would put undue stress on the plastic pipes.

I wouldn't consider this a difficult job at all even if you do it with a valve that'll need to be sweated in.

[StreetRacerX]

Pretty straight forward, you can probably cut both the saddle valve for the humidifier and leaking gate valve and have enough play with the pex piping to use the hackbite shut off, just make sure the pex won't be within 6" of the venting for the HWT, ensure that when you install the valve the handle falls to the off position, and if you do feel that there is stress on the piping, you can always throw in a chunk of 3/4 type L copper and a hackbite coupling to take the stress off.

[Mar]

Bottom valve is unused, I removed the humidifier from it and replaced the saddle valve last year. It was leaking as well before I replaced it.

The valve I bought is a ball valve but it has some sort of shark bite connection system, I'll give it a try. If it leaks I can try something else, I guess I'll leave the saddle valve there.

[ExtraSlow]

Mar Thread: Help me be a plumber.

I can't see how this could go wrong . . . .:nut:

Mar, before you do any of this, have you verified that your floor drain in that room works. Somehow I suspect you'll be needing it . . . . . .

[StreetRacerX]

Originally posted by Mar
Bottom valve is unused, I removed the humidifier from it and replaced the saddle valve last year. It was leaking as well before I replaced it.

The valve I bought is a ball valve but it has some sort of shark bite connection system, I'll give it a try. If it leaks I can try something else, I guess I'll leave the saddle valve there.

If I were you I'd return the hackbite ball valve and put in a 3/4 compression ball valve, I don't know if the plastic in those are fire rated and its going to be awfully close to that venting.

[Nufy]

You should just be able to replace the internals on the valve in question.

No soldering needed.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Nufy
You should just be able to replace the internals on the valve in question.

No soldering needed.
Should, maybe but it is probably cheaper and possibly easier to just replace the whole valve - finding the individual required parts is probably not that easy.

[C_Dave45]

Just a thought: When you cut the old valves out, remove/replace the diptube going into the HWT at the same time. Unless it's in perfect shape. Dip tubes often break down and are a common cause of running out of hot water before your shower's finished.

[The_Rural_Juror]

What could go wrong?

[FraserB]

Subscribed.

[BokCh0y]

Originally posted by FraserB
Subscribed.

x2

[dj_rice]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

in b4 he sets up a GoFundMe page for what happens after install

[DustanS]

.

[legendboy]

I replaced my hot water tank diy, took me about an hour + one trip to home depot to buy a few gas line nipples

soldering copper pipe is very simple, I think the kits are about 30 bucks and will last you forever. You will also need a quality pipe cutter, maybe 20?

just post your technical questions here and we will get you thru it

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by StreetRacerX


If I were you I'd return the hackbite ball valve and put in a 3/4 compression ball valve, I don't know if the plastic in those are fire rated and its going to be awfully close to that venting.

Sharkbites need to be a certain distance from the HW tank inlets. Mar knows this, the Rona guy told him how easy it is to do.
Serious. This is a major water line, it lets go, there is no TRY except TRY to keep the basement water below your ankles. cut the line close to the PEX, disconnect from tank. Build your new line then solder in at top and connect at tank. Solder will either leak instantly and you know or it never will. Sharkbites, who knows.


Originally posted by C_Dave45
Just a thought: When you cut the old valves out, remove/replace the diptube going into the HWT at the same time. Unless it's in perfect shape. Dip tubes often break down and are a common cause of running out of hot water before your shower's finished.
He's not removing the notoriously leaky saddle valve. El Cheapo isn't going to replace the $10 dip tube.


Originally posted by legendboy
I replaced my hot water tank diy, took me about an hour + one trip to home depot to buy a few gas line nipples

soldering copper pipe is very simple, I think the kits are about 30 bucks and will last you forever. You will also need a quality pipe cutter, maybe 20?

just post your technical questions here and we will get you thru it
You must be new to Mar threads. ;)

[carson blocks]

Originally posted by dj_rice
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

in b4 he sets up a GoFundMe page for what happens after install

Werd. In before flood of biblical proportions. Also in before 'Can I retroactively buy flood insurance?' thread, the 'How to drain my basement?' thread, and the 'How do I haul home reno supplies on a Veloster?' thread.

I suggest building an ark before you start, or calling a competent plumber.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by carson blocks
or calling a competent plumber.
He IS a competent plumber. We gave him so much advice he's upgraded from mar to MARio

[01RedDX]

.

[Mar]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Just a thought: When you cut the old valves out, remove/replace the diptube going into the HWT at the same time. Unless it's in perfect shape. Dip tubes often break down and are a common cause of running out of hot water before your shower's finished.
Wait, this can reduce the amount of hot water per cycle? I always run out of hot water, I've already turned up the little blue dial on the tank because there wasn't enough hot water. The tank has never been drained, that was next on the list.


Originally posted by DustanS
Turn that old gate valve a quarter to half turn to the right and that drip will likely stop.
I've turned it all the way in both directions, a one-drop-per-five-seconds is the lowest I can get it down to.


Originally posted by mr2mike
He's not removing the notoriously leaky saddle valve. El Cheapo isn't going to replace the $10 dip tube.
I replaced the saddle valve last year thanks to my best friends on Beyond.


Originally posted by mr2mike
You must be new to Mar threads. ;)
No joke, when I read his reply I thought, "He's being way too helpful to me, is he new?"


Originally posted by carson blocks


Werd. In before flood of biblical proportions. Also in before 'Can I retroactively buy flood insurance?' thread, the 'How to drain my basement?' thread, and the 'How do I haul home reno supplies on a Veloster?' thread.

I suggest building an ark before you start, or calling a competent plumber.
I just spent $1500 renovating the basement after a flood, we finished it a month ago. I escaped with minimal NES collection loss.

To all the rest, I'll rethink the strategy with the valve I have and look into soldering the connection. I can solder car wiring like a champ (ask David) but was always told copper pipes are a different beast.

Can I cut the pipe with a hack saw or do I need some sort of special saw?

[J.M.]

Cut the pipe with a pipe cutter tool

[mr2mike]

Pipe cutter tool. It's like $20 and you'll use it again.
Slowly score the pipe and keep tightening it as the tool gets loose while you're turning.

Hint: CLEAN ALL connections. Get emery cloth and proper acid flux for this.
Any water in the pipes will hinder your soldering job so get the water out.
Get a few extra connections and practice before the real deal.

[SOAB]

this looks so simple. you could just build the replacement pipe with new copper before you even need to remove the old one. then simply remove and replace. your water will need to be shut off for all of 5 minutes.

FYI, buy yourself the crimping tool. you'll need it again.

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by SOAB
this looks so simple. you could just build the replacement pipe with new copper before you even need to remove the old one.

Yep that's what I'd do. Especially with the PEX above, lots of play without worry of breaking old solder joints.

[suntan]

You can try repacking the knob.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tv/ask-toh/video/0,,20862036,00.html

Watch scene #4.

[StreetRacerX]

If you don't want to solder, or cannot completely stop the flow of water to the hot water tank do this:

1.)Buy a cheap copper cutter that will cut 3/4" copper

2.)Exchange Shark bite ball valve for solid brass 3/4" compression ball valve(You can also buy a grit cloth/emery cloth roll to clean the copper pipe after cutting the valve out as sometimes there is mineral deposits on it that will prevent the ferules in the compression ball valve from sliding over top of the copper.)

3.)Turn hot water tank off by turning the knob on your crappy John Woods gas valve to Pilot

4.)Turn the water to your house off using the valve at the water meter

5.)Attach a garden hose to the hose bib/drain valve on the bottom of your hot water tank, ensure the shut off to the hot water tank is open to ensure water upstream of the valve is drained before you cut the valve out.

6.) Drain the hot water tank, ensure you have a couple faucets open to introduce air into the system to speed up the draining process, never pop the relief valve on the hot water tank unless you intend to replace it as debris can become lodged in the seat preventing it from sealing properly causing a leak when you pressure the tank back up.

7.) Once the tank is drained, cut the leaky valve out making the cuts as close as possible to the valve itself, ensure that there is no solder where you are cutting as the solder will likely cause issues when you try to put the ferules for the new valve over the copper.

8.) With the old valve removed, clean the copper with the grit cloth, slide the union/ nut then the ferule from one side of the compression valve onto the copper coming up from the tank, place the valve onto the copper pipe ensuring it bottoms out inside the valve, do the same thing for the copper going to the pex and push the copper pipe down into the valve. Using as crescent wrench to tighten the union nut and a set of large pliers as a back up on the valve body itself, tighten the nuts.

9.) Close the drain valve on the hot water tank, close all but one faucet(to bleed air the from tank and system, alternatively you can close all the faucets and use the sound of air leaking or a soapy solution near the valve to determine if you have a leak or not), and turn the water to the house back on, observe the valve for any leaks(If there are any leaks you may have to tighten the nuts some more, also some compression ball valves come with a drain port on the side and sometimes it is loose, ensure it is tightened if you buy a compression ball valve with a drain port), close the faucet left open once the air is bled out(you will likely have to bleed air from other fixtures in the home).

10.) Ensure the new ball valve is in the on position and the hot water tank is full of water, turn the knob on the gas valve from Pilot to On and the burner should come on immediately.

Your welcome.


EDIT: Be careful with the ferules especially Apollo brand valves as they are fragile.

[Mar]

I am the smartest man alive! Thanks to everyone that left suggestions, I used most of them though I stayed with the shark bite valve. I forgot to use teflon tape on the pipe before I put it back on so there is a microscopic leak where the pipe is threaded onto the tank but I'll remove that and put some tape on this afternoon.
I also couldn't get the old dip tube out to replace it so I had to leave it in there. I don't have a pipe wrench.

The 4 things I had to look up on YouTube:
- how to use a pipe cutter
- how to drain a hot water tank
- how to install a shark bite valve
- how to light the pilot light on a hot water tank

http://www.danmaher.com/images/111.jpg

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Mar
I am the smartest man alive!

Except for the fact that you didn't get rid of the saddle valve.

[The_Penguin]

Originally posted by sputnik


Except for the fact that you didn't get rid of the saddle valve.

And he used a Sharkbite ....

[mr2mike]

http://www.cbc.ca/revenuegroup/assets_c/2014/09/CSP_620x296_MediaCentre-thumb-620xauto-379837-thumb-620xauto-381611.jpg

You get your application in yet?

edit: I swear that sharkbite valve needs to be further away from the tank. But whatever. Could be the next home owner's issue if you're lucky. If not... your issue.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by The_Penguin


And he used a Sharkbite ....

You can use sharkbites for an entire job if you want - they are just as secure as any crimp rings or clamps. But 10x the price. They are not a ghetto fix/hack.

They make direct flex water heater connectors which are right at the tank - are you thinking they will contract under heat or something?

[mr2mike]

I was under the impression the o-ring and plastic inside the connector can't take the heat. Needs some heat dissipation hence installed down line a bit.

http://www.jaygaulard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/IMG_8828.jpg

[Khyron]

Rated for 200F+ - shouldn't be having your tank over 120 - certainly not 140.