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spikerS
02-05-2016, 12:11 PM
So, I am looking to do some light welding in my garage, but, the way it is now with a couple heaters going, I keep tripping the 15A breaker before I even start welding.

So, this is a 2 part question.

1, can I just replace a 15a breaker with a 20a breaker, or is there a whole lot more prep work I gotta do...

2, My garage has it's own sub panel, can I add a circuit on to that with a 20a breaker for the sole purpose of plugging in my 110v welder there?

Any electrical gurus that want to offer some advice or even come take a look and discuss over a beer or two?

codetrap
02-05-2016, 12:29 PM
.

Perfect Dark
02-05-2016, 12:39 PM
The breaker isn't there to protect the device, it's there to protect the wiring. By replacing the breaker you would exceed the maximum current draw in the existing wiring (14/2 I'm assuming) and that's not good.

You still in Coventry? I could come and take a look and let you know what your options are.

Russo
02-05-2016, 12:47 PM
if you have 14/2 (white) wire on 15amp, you cant not have 20amp breaker. You need 12/2 (yellow) wire for 20amp

danno
02-05-2016, 12:58 PM
The only answer is to add another circuit.

revelations
02-05-2016, 01:28 PM
Depending on the setup of your garage, it might be cheaper to run a portable heater off of some serious gauge cable from a plug off of another circuit.

If you only weld occasionally in the winter, this would be more fiscally prudent than adding a whole other circuit.

spikerS
02-05-2016, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Perfect Dark
The breaker isn't there to protect the device, it's there to protect the wiring. By replacing the breaker you would exceed the maximum current draw in the existing wiring (14/2 I'm assuming) and that's not good.

You still in Coventry? I could come and take a look and let you know what your options are.

Yeah, I am still in Coventry, if you could swing by that would be great!

It is all white wiring in the garage right now, however, the breakers in the house for the garage are 2x30a breakers, while the garage has 2x15a breakers. So I am guessing I could run a third 20a breaker with yellow wire to a dedicated plug for the welder?

chathamf
02-05-2016, 01:46 PM
How many amps is the breaker for the sub panel? It could be located on the sub-panel, but would definitely have one on the main panel. Never put a higher amp breaker in. Just run a new circuit if it is right there. Easy stuff. Or PM me and I could throw it in for a good price.

mr2mike
02-05-2016, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Russo
if you have 14/2 (white) wire on 15amp, you cant not have 20amp breaker. You need 12/2 (yellow) wire for 20amp
^^^This. And don't think you're better than that code.


Originally posted by danno
The only answer is to add another circuit.

Or physically turn off your furnace/heater before running the welder.
Can't turn it off? Put in a shut off switch.

chathamf
02-05-2016, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by spikerS


Yeah, I am still in Coventry, if you could swing by that would be great!

It is all white wiring in the garage right now, however, the breakers in the house for the garage are 2x30a breakers, while the garage has 2x15a breakers. So I am guessing I could run a third 20a breaker with yellow wire to a dedicated plug for the welder?

Correct. You would have no issues throwing in a new circuit.

danno
02-05-2016, 01:49 PM
Adding a 20amp cct providing you do the work is maybe 50-60$. Throw me a extra 100 ill come do it.:)

chathamf
02-05-2016, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by danno
Adding a 20amp cct providing you do the work is maybe 50-60$. Throw me a extra 100 ill come do it.:)

Damn recession got jmen working for apprentice rates! We don't stand a chance! Haha.

Nufy
02-05-2016, 02:53 PM
Do you already have the welder ?

If not look at getting a 240 VAC unit instead.

if you are adding a circuit, might as well put in a good one.

Edit:

I re-read the OP...

Guess you already have the welder.

Assuming its a 120 VAC unit only...

Throw in a 20 AMP cct and have at er...

spikerS
02-05-2016, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Nufy
Do you already have the welder ?

If not look at getting a 240 VAC unit instead.

if you are adding a circuit, might as well put in a good one.

Edit:

I re-read the OP...

Guess you already have the welder.

Assuming its a 120 VAC unit only...

Throw in a 20 AMP cct and have at er...

No, I am borrowing a friends for now, and I will probably buy one in the future, but running 220 out to the garage i don't think is something i am prepared to do, unless it would cost less than $20 more than adding this 20a breaker.

suntan
02-05-2016, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by danno
Adding a 20amp cct providing you do the work is maybe 50-60$. Throw me a extra 100 ill come do it.:) Shit for those rates can you come over to my house and put in some pot lights in the upstairs bathrooms?

chathamf
02-05-2016, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by spikerS


No, I am borrowing a friends for now, and I will probably buy one in the future, but running 220 out to the garage i don't think is something i am prepared to do, unless it would cost less than $20 more than adding this 20a breaker.

Didn't you say there is a two pole breaker on your main panel for that garage panel? You already have 240 out there.

chathamf
02-05-2016, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by suntan
Shit for those rates can you come over to my house and put in some pot lights in the upstairs bathrooms?

Haha pot lights and likely attic work costs more than easy garage wiring. Bet ya he won't do those so cheap. I wouldn't lol.

spikerS
02-05-2016, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by chathamf


Didn't you say there is a two pole breaker on your main panel for that garage panel? You already have 240 out there.

This is why I am not an electrician. I really don't know what the fuck I am talking about when it comes to electrical.

spikerS
02-05-2016, 04:18 PM
This is what the panel in my house looks like, and the breakers for the garage....

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1465/24722555922_c32214df65.jpg

chathamf
02-05-2016, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by spikerS


This is why I am not an electrician. I really don't know what the fuck I am talking about when it comes to electrical.

Haha. Post a pic of panel (the one in the house) and let us know what breakers are for the garage.

chathamf
02-05-2016, 04:20 PM
Yep you have 240 in the garage.

spikerS
02-05-2016, 04:22 PM
WOOT!

BerserkerCatSplat
02-05-2016, 04:54 PM
Yeah that's 240 for sure. You may be set up like mine, they ran the 240 to the garage but just used each leg to power some 120V circuits instead of installing a 240V outlet.

spikerS
02-05-2016, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
Yeah that's 240 for sure. You may be set up like mine, they ran the 240 to the garage but just used each leg to power some 120V circuits instead of installing a 240V outlet.

Probably, because there is 2 x 15a breakers in the garage, and they are not bridged like the ones on the main panel in the house.

BerserkerCatSplat
02-05-2016, 05:41 PM
Take a picture of the garage subpanel with the cover on and off, should be able to determine if you can just slap a 240V breaker in there for the welder.

mobius
02-05-2016, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by spikerS


Probably, because there is 2 x 15a breakers in the garage, and they are not bridged like the ones on the main panel in the house.

A sub panel is exactly what it sounds like, an extension of your main panel. They are almost always installed with 240VAC. With a 2P 30A breaker feeding it, you have plenty of headroom to install additional plugs etc. in your garage.

I would have someone install a 120VAC 20A plug for your welder. If you decide to buy your own welder down the road, the wiring can be reused for a 240VAC 15A or 20A circuit. It would just be a matter of installing a 2 Pole (bridged) breaker and the proper receptacle.

suntan
02-05-2016, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
Take a picture of the garage subpanel with the cover on and off, should be able to determine if you can just slap a 240V breaker in there for the welder. Protip: Electricians use their tongues to see if there's electricity in the panel.

Disoblige
02-05-2016, 05:51 PM
This was in the electrical handbook in 1942:


Electricians often test circuits for the presence of voltage touching the conductors with the fingers. This method is safe where the voltage does not exceed 250 and is often very convenient for locating a blown-out fuse or for ascertaining whether or not a circuit is alive. Some men can endure the electric shock that results without discomfort whereas others cannot. Therefore, the method is not feasible in some cases. Which are the outside wires and which is the neutral wire of a 115/230 volt three wire system can be determined in this way by noting the intensity of the shock that results by touching different pairs of wires with the fingers. Use the method with caution and be certain that the voltage of the circuit does not exceed 250 before touching the conductors.

The presence of low voltages can be determined by testing. The method is feasible only where the pressure is but a few volts and hence is used only in bell and signal work. Where the voltage is very low, the bared ends of the conductors constituting the 2 sides of the circuit are held a short distance apart on the tongue. If voltage is present a peculiar mildly burning sensation result, which will never be forgotten after one has experienced it. The taste is due to the electrolytic decomposition of the liquids on the tongue which produces a salt having a taste. With voltages of 4 or 5 volts, due to as many cells of a battery, it is best to test for the presence of voltage by holding one of the bared conductors in the hand an touching the other to the tongue. Where a terminal of the battery is grounded, often a taste can be detected by standing on moist ground and touching a conductor from the other battery terminal to the tongue. Care should be exercised to prevent the 2 conductor ends from touching each other at the tongue, for it they do a spark can result that may burn.

spikerS
02-05-2016, 06:32 PM
http://i.imgur.com/EYYRGzW.gif

speedog
02-05-2016, 07:57 PM
I wonder how people on here test a 9 volt battery?

The_Penguin
02-05-2016, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by speedog
I wonder how people on here test a 9 volt battery?

Tongue, ever since I was a kid.

danno
02-05-2016, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by chathamf


Haha pot lights and likely attic work costs more than easy garage wiring. Bet ya he won't do those so cheap. I wouldn't lol.
true that i dont do attic work anymore. Honestly i always forget guys are laid off so i'd try and help those guys out and give them some work, im not laid off and wont be so ill leave side jobs for to them.

chathamf
02-05-2016, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by danno

true that i dont do attic work anymore. Honestly i always forget guys are laid off so i'd try and help those guys out and give them some work, im not laid off and wont be so ill leave side jobs for to them.

Haha I was just joking man! Makes no difference to me and your more qualified for the jobs anyways. Appreciate your help as well buddy. It is crazy these days though I see master electricians offering out their work for like 20 an hour on Kijiji. Year ago there was tons of side jobs on the go for pretty much anyone.

Attic work is the shits. I don't mind going up if I need to fish a wire or something but peopl that think I'll just go and throw in a bunch of pot lights and have em lined perfect are just crazy. Can pay me enough for that.

suntan
02-06-2016, 10:36 AM
I was just looking for one in each bathroom actually, over the shower.

spikerS
02-10-2016, 06:27 PM
Just wondering, do I need to apply for a new permit for this kind of work, or can i just get it inspected at the end? or can I just get an electrician to sign off on it?

spikerS
02-11-2016, 02:24 PM
Beuller?

I tried calling 3-1-1 to find out if I needed a permit to add this circuit to the garage, but after the 8th transfer I just hung up, and all my google-fu skills only are finding results if I am building a NEW house, not adding a circuit...

Any one care to chime in?

chathamf
02-11-2016, 03:02 PM
Technically you do need a permit pulled, and believe you can get away with a home owners permit since you are not doing anything to the service. Best to go this route. But no one will ever know if you just do the work yourself. Far as anyone's concerned it was already there.

raceman6135
02-11-2016, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by spikerS
This is what the panel in my house looks like, and the breakers for the garage....

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1465/24722555922_c32214df65.jpg

Just to clarify: you only have 30 amps going to the garage. What size subpanel is in the garage?

And yes, you need a homeowner's electrical permit to add a new circuit, or to extend an existing circuit.

My recommendation: unless you are 99 percent sure you'll only ever do light-duty welding (that is, sheetmetal and steel thinner than 1/8"), plan on a 240 volt circuit and welder. I've welded 1/8" steel with a 120 volt welder, but it was a much better job and was much easier with a 240 volt welder.

spikerS
02-11-2016, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by chathamf
Technically you do need a permit pulled, and believe you can get away with a home owners permit since you are not doing anything to the service. Best to go this route. But no one will ever know if you just do the work yourself. Far as anyone's concerned it was already there.

well, i finally got through to the city electrical inspector guy. I described to him what was there, and what I wanted to do, and if i needed a permit for it.

his words were "for installing a 20 breaker and a bit of wire, no, you don't need a permit". I kinda got the vibe that following the letter of the law I did, but he was kinda saying just go fucking do it and don't waste my time for something so small....

I am going to install the plug and wiring, and buy the fuse, and just get an electrician to do the connection to the box.

chathamf
02-11-2016, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by spikerS


well, i finally got through to the city electrical inspector guy. I described to him what was there, and what I wanted to do, and if i needed a permit for it.

his words were "for installing a 20 breaker and a bit of wire, no, you don't need a permit". I kinda got the vibe that following the letter of the law I did, but he was kinda saying just go fucking do it and don't waste my time for something so small....

I am going to install the plug and wiring, and buy the fuse, and just get an electrician to do the connection to the box.

Just do it all man. Turn the breaker off to the garage. Black to breaker, white to neutral bar, ground to ground. Done.

spikerS
02-12-2016, 06:03 PM
you know, for as handy as I am, that fucking breaker box scares the absolute shit out of me.

chathamf
02-12-2016, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by spikerS
you know, for as handy as I am, that fucking breaker box scares the absolute shit out of me.

Yea even being in the trade it's not my favourite place to be but since you can 100% kill the power to it it's not too bad. But by all means, hire an electrician if you are uncomfortable. We don't need people getting too handy anyhow we will be out of a job.

HuMz
02-13-2016, 04:18 PM
Once you flip the breaker off at your main power, carefully take the sub-panel cover off. Then take a Volt-tic and touch everything metal inside to confirm its de-energized (it won't beep or light up). You can even take a volt meter on the AC setting across both hot wires/neutral/ground inside the panel to confirm zero volts. Once you have confirmed de-energization there is no way anything can be live until the breaker is turned back on. If your still worried turn off the main breaker on your house panel while you do the termination in the garage sub-panel.

Buster
02-13-2016, 05:02 PM
Isn't the main supply still live going into box?

rx7_turbo2
02-13-2016, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Buster
Isn't the main supply still live going into box?
No. This is a sub-panel.