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View Full Version : GFCI receptacle...any electricians here?



Seks
04-26-2016, 09:06 AM
Looking at changing out a few receptacles to GFCI one. Any electricians here? I will compensate you for your time. I don't trust myself :nut:

FLARE
04-29-2016, 03:57 PM
PM Sent :)

Seks
05-25-2016, 08:35 AM
Anyone else?

Called Flare and left him a VM on the wknd but haven't heard back from him.

spikerS
05-25-2016, 08:36 AM
This is pretty dead simple to do....

Seks
05-25-2016, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by spikerS
This is pretty dead simple to do....

I've seen utube vids..so yes. but dunno...electricity + me. Hate touching shit not comfortable with...especially electricity.

Buster
05-25-2016, 08:47 AM
Just don't grab both sides of the outlet, and you'll be fine.

:devil:

bjstare
05-25-2016, 09:06 AM
Buster's advice is bang on. Just don't grab both sides of the receptacle. Worst case you get a bit of a zap, it's not actually that bad... just reminds you to pay better attention to what you're doing. :rofl:

danno
05-25-2016, 09:09 AM
Gfci actually hurt more than most 120. Haha not sure what i did to make it hurt. 347 is still the worst poke i took though.

Send me a pm with where you leave and i can help you if needed.

colinxx235
05-25-2016, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by cjblair
Buster's advice is bang on. Just don't grab both sides of the receptacle. Worst case you get a bit of a zap, it's not actually that bad... just reminds you to pay better attention to what you're doing. :rofl:


Or just turn off the main breaker while you replace them... haha

Have to make sure your circuit can handle GFCI, we found this out the tough way a month ago doing renos in mckenzie lake on a 93/94 built home. The original electricians did alot of wire crossing and funky shit so we knew it might be a bit of guessing trying to redo kitchen. After the 2nd one popped and blew we paid Trecc to take a look while they were already there to install the lights :rofl: and discovered that the kitchen wouldn't handle them. So we had to go back and replace with just new standard outlets.

chathamf
05-25-2016, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by colinxx235



Or just turn off the main breaker while you replace them... haha

Have to make sure your circuit can handle GFCI, we found this out the tough way a month ago doing renos in mckenzie lake on a 93/94 built home. The original electricians did alot of wire crossing and funky shit so we knew it might be a bit of guessing trying to redo kitchen. After the 2nd one popped and blew we paid Trecc to take a look while they were already there to install the lights :rofl: and discovered that the kitchen wouldn't handle them. So we had to go back and replace with just new standard outlets.

Why couldn't the circuit handle the GFCI? Never heard of this issue coming up. Experienced electrician here..

bjstare
05-25-2016, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by chathamf


Why couldn't the circuit handle the GFCI? Never heard of this issue coming up. Experienced electrician here..

This is what I was thinking, it doesn't make any sense. I know a fair bit about electricity as well.

And RE: Shutting off the breaker when doing work... it sucks working in the dark. And I'm lazy.

rx7_turbo2
05-25-2016, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by chathamf
Why couldn't the circuit handle the GFCI? Never heard of this issue coming up. Experienced electrician here..

Ya nothing about that makes sense.

Adding a GFCI to a circuit can, depending on what else is on the circuit, electronics in particular, cause nuisance tripping. But the idea a circuit can't "handle" a GFCI sounds like bullshit to me. Well maybe sounds like is giving it too much credit, is bullshit would probably be more accurate.

In addition, please, please, please don't work on live circuits. The idea that it's just 120v, it'll just be a "buzz" is an irresponsible message. It can and does kill people on the regular. It's not the voltage its current, even mV across your heart can stop it or throw it into Atrial Fibrillation. Turn off the breaker to that circuit, test to ensure de-energization, or turn off the main breaker then test to ensure de-energization. If you're still nervous call a professional.

*Edit*
Domestic electrical supplies operate at 220–240 volts, and alternating current is more dangerous than direct current. Electrical shocks generally result from contact with live wires or lightning. Cardiovascular effects include myocardial infarction, transient accelerated hypertension, left ventricular dysfunction, cardiac rupture, and arrhythmias.1–3 Premature ventricular contractions, ventricular tachycardia, ventricular fibrillation, atrial tachicardia, atrial fibrillation, bundle branch, and complete heart block may be occur after electrical shock.3,4 Follow up studies show that the prevalence of arrhythmias after electrical injury varies between 10% to 36%. Atrial fibrillation after electrical shock is extremely rare. In a study of 182 cases of electrical injury over a 20 year period, only two instances of atrial fibrillation were reported and one of them required cardioversion.

So A-Fib is rare, but the other things don't sound fun ;)

colinxx235
05-25-2016, 10:45 AM
I was in the other room when he was explaining it to the construction manager so I didn't hear everything. But he stated something wasn't wired properly and issues with the grounding I believe... but please don't quote me on that. I'm a mech engg who was doing renos and have no claims to know electricity that well. All I know is we popped two GFCIs and on the second one the CM took a good shock and said fuck that shit :rofl:

There were zero existing GFCI in the kitchen which was surprising given a 93/94 build.


Pfffft its light out until 930, which is great because my 5:04 tee time last night was smooth sailing :D

chathamf
05-25-2016, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Ya nothing about that makes sense.

Adding a GFCI to a circuit can, depending on what else is on the circuit, electronics in particular, cause nuisance tripping. But the idea a circuit can't "handle" a GFCI sounds like bullshit to me. Well maybe sounds like is giving it too much credit, is bullshit would probably be more accurate.

In addition, please, please, please don't work on live circuits. The idea that it's just 120v, it'll just be a "buzz" is an irresponsible message. It can and does kill people on the regular. It's not the voltage its current, even mV across your heart can stop it or throw it into Atrial Fibrillation. Turn off the breaker to that circuit, test to ensure de-energization, or turn off the main breaker then test to ensure de-energization. If you're still nervous call a professional.

*Edit*
Domestic electrical supplies operate at 220–240 volts, and alternating current is more dangerous than direct current. Electrical shocks generally result from contact with live wires or lightning. Cardiovascular effects include myocardial infarction, transient accelerated hypertension, left ventricular dysfunction, cardiac rupture, and arrhythmias.1–3 Premature ventricular contractions, ventricular tachycardia, ventricular fibrillation, atrial tachicardia, atrial fibrillation, bundle branch, and complete heart block may be occur after electrical shock.3,4 Follow up studies show that the prevalence of arrhythmias after electrical injury varies between 10% to 36%. Atrial fibrillation after electrical shock is extremely rare. In a study of 182 cases of electrical injury over a 20 year period, only two instances of atrial fibrillation were reported and one of them required cardioversion.

So A-Fib is rare, but the other things don't sound fun ;)

Yes take this guys advise. I've gotten countless pokes off of 120v and honestly no issues but sometimes it does hurt. I've worked as a residential service electrician so had to work on lots of live power because that is how you troubleshoot issues and whatnot but I always prefer to kill a circuit when I can. I've gotten a few pokes off of GFCIs installing them live. Not a ton of room in those boxes and it's easy to get fed up trying to make it fit and grabbing both sides of it. Also easy to hit the sides of the box with the screws and get some sparks. I hate live electricity and it's what I do for a living. As a DIYer you should definetly kill the power. With that being said though I have no issues with people tackling small electrical jobs at home. Just be careful and don't do anything you aren't sure of.

suntan
05-25-2016, 12:23 PM
Amperage kills. Voltage tingles.

Kitchens don't typically have GFCI outlets. Also each receptacle in your kitchen needs to be on a separate circuit.

chathamf
05-25-2016, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by suntan
Amperage kills. Voltage tingles.

Kitchens don't typically have GFCI outlets. Also each receptacle in your kitchen needs to be on a separate circuit.

False. Kitchens have to have GFCI outlets because of the proximity of the outlet to the sink. Two receptacles can be on the same circuit. Usually you would not put them side by side but skip to one farther away.

suntan
05-25-2016, 01:47 PM
How far do they have to be from the sink before the GFCI isn't required? Or is that a new code thing?

Edit: Looks like it's been around for a while. Sure as hell don't have GFCI receptacles in my 2002 kitchen though.

chathamf
05-25-2016, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by suntan
How far do they have to be from the sink before the GFCI isn't required? Or is that a new code thing?

Edit: Looks like it's been around for a while. Sure as hell don't have GFCI receptacles in my 2002 kitchen though.

They are likely split receptacles. Top and bottom plug are different circuits. This was common in older homes but I would imagine that GFCIs were readily used back then. May not have been a code ruling at the time though. I forget now what the code rule says about distance from the sink.

rx7_turbo2
05-25-2016, 02:28 PM
You have to remember The Code is a minimum requirement. Municipalities have the ability, to require things above and beyond. Often distance from this or that, GFCI everywhere etc, that stuff is determined by The City. I haven't and don't deal with a ton of resi, it's full of ever changing minutia that you really have to stay on top of.

suntan
05-25-2016, 02:30 PM
GFCI in kitchen is in NEC.

rx7_turbo2
05-25-2016, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by suntan
GFCI in kitchen is in NEC.

As in National Energy Code for Canada, or National Electric Code out of The States?

To my knowledge the Energy Code doesn't touch on this type of stuff, and the code out of The States doesn't apply here.

I'll flip through my code book when I get a chance but I don't recall anything in the CEC that requires all receptacles in a kitchen to be GFCI. If that's how things are being installed right now I suspect its a requirement of the municipality.

*Edit*
I had a peek. I see nothing in the CEC that requires every receptacle in a kitchen to be GFCI.

1.5m of the sink is the only requirement for the use of a GFCI in a kitchen as far as I can see.

chathamf
05-25-2016, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


As in National Energy Code for Canada, or National Electric Code out of The States?

To my knowledge the Energy Code doesn't touch on this type of stuff, and the code out of The States doesn't apply here.

I'll flip through my code book when I get a chance but I don't recall anything in the CEC that requires all receptacles in a kitchen to be GFCI. If that's how things are being installed right now I suspect its a requirement of the municipality.

I think it's actually just the receptacles that are close to the sink. So I guess in theory it has nothing to do with the kitchen. If there was no sink no GFCI.

rx7_turbo2
05-25-2016, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by chathamf
I think it's actually just the receptacles that are close to the sink. So I guess in theory it has nothing to do with the kitchen. If there was no sink no GFCI.

I must have misinterpreted a previous post. Ok I'll break it down as I read it.

In a kitchen.
- You can use 15a split receptacles(old school)
- Or install dedicated 15/20a Tslot receptacles(standard method now)

Either way GFCI is only required if the receptacle is installed within 1.5m of the sink.

suntan
05-25-2016, 05:07 PM
Good call. Never seen them in the States either (parent's house). I think the internet is just plain wrong.

I have an older simplified guide at home, I should read what it says about it.

raceman6135
05-25-2016, 11:24 PM
Don't get confused about GFCI use in the kitchen, or any wet area for that matter: code does NOT state that a GFCI receptacle has to be installed within 1.5 meters of the sink. It states that the circuit must be protected by a GFCI device. That means that there could be a GFCI breaker in the panel for that circuit, or perhaps a bathroom that's close to the kitchen has a GFCI receptacle that has a kitchen outlet on the load side.

In my house, built in 1999, the main floor 2-piece powder room has a duplex receptacle that is controlled by the GFCI receptacle located in the second-floor 4-piece master bathroom.

Seks
05-26-2016, 07:19 AM
There is a GFCI on the kitchen island where the sink is.

There is a GFCI in the 1/2 bathroom. The 2 full bathrooms have just regular receptacles but they are linked to a single GFCI breaker in the panel in the garage.

Why would they do that instead of just doing each full bathroom individually?

:dunno:

rx7_turbo2
05-26-2016, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by raceman6135
Don't get confused about GFCI use in the kitchen, or any wet area for that matter: code does NOT state that a GFCI receptacle has to be installed within 1.5 meters of the sink. It states that the circuit must be protected by a GFCI device. That means that there could be a GFCI breaker in the panel for that circuit, or perhaps a bathroom that's close to the kitchen has a GFCI receptacle that has a kitchen outlet on the load side.

In my house, built in 1999, the main floor 2-piece powder room has a duplex receptacle that is controlled by the GFCI receptacle located in the second-floor 4-piece master bathroom.

Please be careful with the advice you give.

Yes the GFCI protection does NOT need to be in the form of a receptacle. It can be in the form of a circuit breaker.

However, only a complete hack electrician would ever protect a vulnerable (within 1.5m of wet area) receptacle in a kitchen by running a branch circuit from some other GFCI protected circuit in the house ie) a bathroom. My guess is an inspector, if he caught it would absolutely make you change it. In fact when 20a circuits are being installed in a kitchen I've only ever seen dedicated circuits used. In a average kitchen I would expect to see 2 x 20a dedicated circuits alternating across a kitchen counter, and if an island existed another dedicated circuit for that application as well. That would be what I consider "Best Practice".

Connecting the receptacles of bathrooms with a common branch circuit protect by a GFCI receptacle or breaker is standard practice and completely reasonable.


Originally posted by Seks
There is a GFCI on the kitchen island where the sink is.

There is a GFCI in the 1/2 bathroom. The 2 full bathrooms have just regular receptacles but they are linked to a single GFCI breaker in the panel in the garage.

Why would they do that instead of just doing each full bathroom individually?

:dunno:

When a GFCI device is installed in a circuit it protects everything on that circuit. So if the washrooms are all on the same branch circuit only a single GFCI device is required. Without seeing your house I'd say it was done that way because it was easier lol. The 2 full bathrooms are probably on the same branch circuit so only one GFCI device was required. However for whatever reason it was difficult or time consuming to get the same circuit to the 1\2 bath as well so the electricians grabbed whatever other circuit happened to be near by and used it, then installed a GFCI receptacle to protect it. You'll probably find that if you manually trip the GFCI receptacle in the 1/2 bath that other receptacles in the near by vicinity become de-energized.

As mentioned this is fairly common practice and reasonable because the bathroom generally isn't an area where devices that draw a high load are operated. The kitchen is different.

suntan
05-26-2016, 09:39 AM
I checked my panel for GFCI circuit breakers for the kitchen. Not there.

Maybe the code change happened late in 2002 is the only thing I can think of. That or the city inspectors missed it. Not that that's surprising at all.

danno
05-26-2016, 09:54 AM
whenever i wired houses, which is about 6 years ago, we would pull 1 circuit for the bathroom plugs and use 1 gfci receptacle. also we would do the same for the outside plugs and put either a deadfront by the panel, or a gfci receptacle outside on one of them.

for the kitchen it's pretty rare use gfci as we try and keep the outlet far enough away. normally 2-3 ccts 20 amps, never the same cct beside each other. before it was a 14/3 split receptacle. codes change so often so i'm not up to date on whats going on.

rx7_turbo2
05-26-2016, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by suntan
I checked my panel for GFCI circuit breakers for the kitchen. Not there.

Maybe the code change happened late in 2002 is the only thing I can think of. That or the city inspectors missed it. Not that that's surprising at all.

Do you have a receptacle within 1.5m of the sink?

In 2002 I'd be shocked if it wasn't GFCI protected somehow. It's possible that some "scabby" electrician did as I mentioned earlier and fed it from a circuit that contains a GFCI device in a washroom somewhere else in the house. Do you know what breaker feeds that receptacle? You could turn that breaker off and see what else in the house turns off. You'll probably find a washroom is also on that circuit with a GFCI. The WAY the fuck out there possibility is it's protect by a GFCI protected circuit that feeds exterior plugs lol. I've seen crazier but that would be exceedingly bizarre.


Originally posted by danno
whenever i wired houses, which is about 6 years ago, we would pull 1 circuit for the bathroom plugs and use 1 gfci receptacle. also we would do the same for the outside plugs and put either a deadfront by the panel, or a gfci receptacle outside on one of them.

for the kitchen it's pretty rare use gfci as we try and keep the outlet far enough away. normally 2-3 ccts 20 amps, never the same cct beside each other. before it was a 14/3 split receptacle. codes change so often so i'm not up to date on whats going on.

This is 100% what I would consider "Best Practice" and how I would expect anyone working for me to wire a house and how I would wire my own house.

The only change is that while The Code allows it I don't think the city inspectors will allow spit receptacles any more. My understanding is as you mentioned, in the kitchen, dedicated 20a circuits, never beside each other, with 15/20a "Tslot" receptacles installed.

bjstare
05-26-2016, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2




In 2002 I'd be shocked if it wasn't GFCI protected somehow.

http://commentphotos.com/gallery/CommentPhotos.com_1407346387.jpg

rx7_turbo2
05-26-2016, 11:01 AM
^Hahahaha, completely unintentional :rofl:

BerserkerCatSplat
05-26-2016, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Do you have a receptacle within 1.5m of the sink?

In 2002 I'd be shocked if it wasn't GFCI protected somehow. It's possible that some "scabby" electrician did as I mentioned earlier and fed it from a circuit that contains a GFCI device in a washroom somewhere else in the house.

Our house is a 2002 build and also lacks any GFCI protection for the kitchen outlets, which a number of are well within 1.5m of the sink. It has the dual-pole 15A standard breaker per duplex outlet setup and isn't tied into any GFCI circuits. I suspect he's right that is was a code change that came post-2002.

rx7_turbo2
05-26-2016, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


Our house is a 2002 build and also lacks any GFCI protection for the kitchen outlets, which a number of are well within 1.5m of the sink. It has the dual-pole 15A standard breaker per duplex outlet setup and isn't tied into any GFCI circuits. I suspect he's right that is was a code change that came post-2002.

The oldest code book I have is 2006. I had to go rummaging through my "junk" closet to find it. Rule 26-700 (11) mentions specifically the 1.5m rule. Here's the kicker though. The rule has a delta sign beside it. That delta sign indicates an addition or change. The 2006 code book is riddled with these because it was the year where a significant number of changes and additions were made from the previous book(2002 or 2003?)

Now that I've seen that I suspect you're correct. It surprises me but I think prior to the adoption of the 2006 CEC by this province there was no requirement for a GFCI device for receptacles within 1.5m of a sink. I would have been an apprentice back then, seems like light years ago.

raceman6135
05-26-2016, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Please be careful with the advice you give.

You're absolutely right: I should have explained things more fully, with caveats, as you did in your post. Thanks for catching that :thumbsup:

rx7_turbo2
05-26-2016, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by raceman6135
You're absolutely right: I should have explained things more fully, with caveats, as you did in your post. Thanks for catching that :thumbsup:

No worries. I made the mistake of constantly referring to it as a GFCI receptacle, failing to explain the circuit needs to be protect by a GFCI DEVICE and that there are a number of devices to achieve the desired level of protection, a receptacle being only one of them.

Seks
05-26-2016, 09:25 PM
Still looking for help

BerserkerCatSplat
05-26-2016, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


The oldest code book I have is 2006. I had to go rummaging through my "junk" closet to find it. Rule 26-700 (11) mentions specifically the 1.5m rule. Here's the kicker though. The rule has a delta sign beside it. That delta sign indicates an addition or change. The 2006 code book is riddled with these because it was the year where a significant number of changes and additions were made from the previous book(2002 or 2003?)

Now that I've seen that I suspect you're correct. It surprises me but I think prior to the adoption of the 2006 CEC by this province there was no requirement for a GFCI device for receptacles within 1.5m of a sink. I would have been an apprentice back then, seems like light years ago.

Yeah it really seems like something that should/would have been code-mandated in 2002, especially since the bathrooms are all GFCI'd. That's code updates for you, I guess. Now we get to use AFCI on almost everything, no more cheap breakers for us!

suntan
05-27-2016, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Seks
Still looking for help Neutech electrical.