Garage Renos - Electircal Input

[whiteout]

Need a quick check of my plans so far and a couple of questions answered.

I’m doing the electrical install in my garage and so far have the following:

- New 80 amp panel in garage, replace existing feed from main breaker, conduit run from house to garage

- 3x 110v duplex receptacles on the north and south walls, wired using 12ga wire on a 20 amp breaker, 3 receptacles per circuit, all receptacles to be arc fault protected and tamper resistant

- 3x 110v duplex receptacles on the south portion of the east wall by the work bench, wired using 12ga wire on a 20 amp breaker, 3 receptacles on circuit, all receptacles to be arc fault protected and tamper resistant

- 2x 110v duplex receptacles on north portion of east wall, wired using 12ga wire on a 20 amp breaker, 2 receptacles on circuit, all receptacles to be arc fault protected and tamper resistant

- 1x 220v receptacle on north, south and east wall, wired using 8ga wire on 30amp breaker, 1 receptacle per circuit

- Garage door opener will remain on dedicated circuit, 12ga wire on a 20 amp breaker

- 2x 110v duplex receptacles on ceiling by garage door opener, wired using 12ga wire on a 20 amp breaker, 2 receptacles on circuit, all receptacles to be arc fault protected and tamper resistant

- 6x florescent lights, 4x tubes per fixture, 2x lights per circuit, 1x switch per pair, wired using 12ga wire on 20 amp breaker

- 1x exterior light above garage door, dedicated circuit, wired using 12ga wire on a 20 amp breaker

- Each circuit to be tagged at the panel and at each receptacle, all receptacle boxes to be supported on 2 side (exceeds code requirement)

Now for the questions.

1. What size wire should I be using for the cable run from the main breaker to the garage sub-panel
2. Should I consider increasing the sizing for the 220v receptacles? I want to have provisions for a garage heater, welder, compressor, etc… Don’t plan on having them right away, but might as well plan ahead
3. In general, are the cable sizes and breaker sizes acceptable? I don’t plan on doing any heavy duty work on a constant basis, so I shouldn’t be blowing things frequently.
4. Anything I should change in general?

[chathamf]

Sounds good to me. Except you are going overboard with all the 20a circuits. I can see if you want the general receptacles to be 20a if you plan on running some tools and whatnot but no reason to put the lights and garage door opener and whatnot on a 20a. No need to have the outdoor light on its own circuit either. 80A subpanel..likely a number 6 but don't quote me on that. Usually a number four is used for 100a services so I assume you could use a 6. Would tell you for sure but I got rid of my old code book and am yet to grab the newest version. I am sure someone will chime in.

Been almost 2 years since I did residential on a day to day basis so my numbers are a little rusty.

[littledan]

what is the distance from the garage panel to the main breaker? Take this distance and calculate the wire size based on available voltage drop (2% or 3%, max 5% total). Depending on the distance you may end up with a honkin big wire.

[rx7_turbo2]

Pretty thorough.

If it was my garage I would run #12 to all my receptacles and install 15/20a "T slot" receptacles. Just gives you the option for 20a devices, and the receptacles aren't that much more $.

Lighting doesn't really need to be fed by 20a conductors and breakers but hey if you want to, go for it. Just remember to size the switches for the lights for 20a as well. People often miss that.

#8 is overkill for a 30a breaker, #10 will suffice. Again it's your call, but depending on what receptacle you'll be installing #8 can be difficult to get in a single gang box, just keep that in mind.

What sort of garage heater? A gas heater will probably only need 120v for an exhaust fan, not a large load.

Since you're going through all this trouble maybe install a 220v 50a breaker and properly sized wire for a welder? Just an idea.

Off the top of my head 80a = #4, anyone else confirm? Unless your garage is a considerable way from your house volt drop probably shouldn't be an issue, but if you want to check the Code Book has a formula or you can find an online calculator to confirm.

Other than that? I'll give you the advice I give everyone. Whatever you think you need for light, multiply it by 2, so much easier to do now and you can never have too much light.

[littledan]

Looks like #4AWG for the run from main breaker to garage panel

[never]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Since you're going through all this trouble maybe install a 220v 50a breaker and properly sized wire for a welder? Just an idea.

This.

[craigcd]

Wire your garage door opener to a light switch so you can flip it on and off with the lights. Good for when you go on vacation or every day use.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by craigcd
Wire your garage door opener to a light switch so you can flip it on and off with the lights. Good for when you go on vacation or every day use.

Not a bad idea, I'd throw it on a separate switch from the lights though. Would save me from having to precariously stand on my tippy Princess Auto motorcycle stand and unplug the thing like I do now.

[never]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Not a bad idea, I'd throw it on a separate switch from the lights though. Would save me from having to precariously stand on my tippy Princess Auto motorcycle stand and unplug the thing like I do now.

I have mine on a separate switch and it's definitely handy.

[Nufy]

Just turn off the breaker in the panel when you go on vacation.

No need for the switch imo...

[whiteout]

Thanks for the posts so far guys!

I might have to scale back the plans a bit, haven't been able to find an 80 amp panel, seems to go from 60 right to 100. Same goes for 20 amp AFCI receptacles, can't find them at HD or Lowe's.

Anyone have an idea on where to look? Or if they even exist?

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by whiteout
Thanks for the posts so far guys!

I might have to scale back the plans a bit, haven't been able to find an 80 amp panel, seems to go from 60 right to 100. Same goes for 20 amp AFCI receptacles, can't find them at HD or Lowe's.

Anyone have an idea on where to look? Or if they even exist?

You might be stuck with those panel options. You can feed a 100a rated panel with an 80a breaker I believe. Anybody confirm? You may need to upsize your conductors to the garage but....

You could use Arc Fault breakers instead of receptacles.

Eecol should have everything you need if Home Depot fails you.

[chathamf]

You can use a 100A panel and put in a 80A breaker if you can find one. I don't recall ever using a 80A but I'm sure they exist. May as well just make it a 100A at this point though IMO. The 100A panel just means it can handle up to 100A it doesn't matter what breaker you have in it as long as it doesn't exceed 100A. You can get the 20A AFCI at a wholesaler.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by chathamf
You can use a 100A panel and put in a 80A breaker if you can find one. I don't recall ever using a 80A but I'm sure they exist. May as well just make it a 100A at this point though IMO. The 100A panel just means it can handle up to 100A it doesn't matter what breaker you have in it as long as it doesn't exceed 100A. You can get the 20A AFCI at a wholesaler.

That's what I thought at well. My only concern was maybe there was a requirement because it's a sub panel that the conductors be sized to the rating of the subpanel NOT the breaker installed in it? Sounds like that's not the case though?

Either way if the conduit to the garage is big enough just run what #3AWG conductors and throw a 100A panel in protected by a 100a breaker.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

You'll want to verify with an electrician, but as I understand it, the subpanel rating is not determined by the service from the main panel as long as it's not less than the service feed.

i.e. you can have a 30A feeder going to a 200A subpanel if you really wanted, the 30A breaker at the main panel is the actual protection for the feeder wires and the 200A main subpanel breaker basically just acts as a shutoff switch. You can't, obviously, have 200A service going to a 60A subpanel.

[whiteout]

Got all my outlets mounted and a nice 60amp load center for the garage.

Need a bit of clarification on what the homeowners wiring guide is saying.


Arc-fault protection

On Jan. 1, 2015, the Canadian Electrical Code requirements for arc-fault protection changed. Special wiring methods are required for most residential outlet branch circuits. All branch circuits in a dwelling supplying 125V outlets rated 20A or less are required to be protected by a combination-type arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCII).

Only the following 15A or 20A outlets are excluded:
- Kitchen counter, island and peninsula outlets
- Kitchen refrigerator outlet
- A cord connected sump pump on a separate breaker (the sump pump must only be plugged into a single receptacle)
- Ground fault protected outlets within 1m of a bathroom or washroom sink

Where combination AFCI breakers are not used, blank face protectors and outlets are permitted with some restrictions.

Each application has a preferred installation method based on level of protection and practicality.

The branch circuit wiring from the Panelboard to the blank face device or first outlet must be armored cable (AC90 BX) or approved electrical tubing. This is to add additional protection to the branch circuit wiring where breakers are not used.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this reads to me as AFCI breakers not being required since I'm wiring in a garage and not a dwelling. But at the same time, if I didn't use the AFCI breaker, I would need the armored cable; whereas if I did have an AFCI breaker on the circuit, unarmored cable would be acceptable for the entire run?

http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/Documents/Electrical/Homeowner%20electrical%20wiring%20guide.pdf

Located on page 9/12.

[rx7_turbo2]

Your understanding is the same as mine. Garage is not a dwelling so AFCI not required.

However I know somewhere in the code it outlines what a dwellin unit includes and consists of. An attached garage may be considered part of a dwelling it while a detached may not. I'll see if I can find the exact wording.

Those AFCI's are pricey! Guess the breaker manufacturers lobby final achieved its goal, I know there's been a push for this for a long time, like was it really that big of an issue?

[Crazyjoker77]

Its also my belief that if you are going to use 20A breakers and 12g wire that all receptacles also have to be 5-20R or 5-20RA (T-Slots)

14-600 Protection of receptacles
Receptacles shall not be connected to a branch circuit having overcurrent protection rated or set at more than
the ampere rating of the receptacle

26-700 General
(2) Except as provided for by other Rules of this Code, receptacles having configurations in accordance with
Diagrams 1 and 2 shall be connected only to circuits having a nominal system voltage and ampere rating
corresponding to the rating of the configurations.

Its a Canadian thing americans can get away with putting 15A receptacles on 20A circuits but in Canada its a no-go.

Theory is you could have (ex.) 18.5A plugged into a single receptacle rated at 15A(due to extension cords or power bars) and not have the breaker trip.

[whiteout]

Thanks for all the info guys, I talked to the city and got everything sorted out.

- The city provided wiring guide for homeowners is apparently not totally correct. They call for 2.0m of headspace above the panel, which the inspector had never heard about and had to check the document I was looking at. Got told to install so the highest breaker is not above 1.7m from the floor

- AFCI is required on receptacles, but can be done one of two ways. Either a breaker in the panel (~$160/breaker) and no armored cable OR a non-AFCI breaker (~$10), AC90 BX cable to the first device box and an AFCI receptacle (~$40), then normal wire and receptacles after that.

Simply going to cut down the number of circuits to bare minimum and do it that way. Oddly enough, the city guy also the thought the AFCI requirement was a bit ridiculous.

[rx7_turbo2]

The rating of the receptacle matching the rating of the breaker makes total sense. The design of a circuit breaker is not to protect the load, although it can be designed to do this its primary function is to protect everything else in the circuit. A 20a breaker is not properly protecting a receptacle only rated for 15a.

Nobody understands the new AFCI requirements. I've asked just about everyone I know, P.Eng, other Masters, Journeyman, Code instructors, Inspectors. Everyone just kind of shakes their head and says "No idea what the thinking behind it is"

Glad you got it sorted whiteout.

[FraserB]

Do two receptacles right near the panel to cut down on armored cable and good to go, cut down the cost and still comply with code.