Condo Bylaw's/Fines

[supeg]

Ton's of smart people on these boards so I thought I would toss this out there. Bought a New Condo last summer. No issues really until today. A couple of weeks ago they sent out a letter saying they are hiring someone to clean the parking lot and for everyone to move there cars from 9:00-5:00pm out of the lot on a certain day or get fined/towed.

The guys doing the cleaning did not come until 9:30AM and did not start until 11:00AM, I was off that day so I spoke to them when they came and asked if I can move my Car when they started (do not want to park on the main road as there has been multiple crashes/break-ins and i do not have collision) which the cleaning guys said was fine. I moved my car when they started and took pictures of them cleaning the parking spots with no impediments of my vehicle (Just a in case thing which was a good thing to have done)

Fast forward to today and I get a letter where they took a picture of my Vehicle at just after 9:00AM and levied a fine against me for 250.00 Sent a email to my property management stating my case including the photo's showing my vehicle was not there when they actually started cleaning and they replied

"If the vehicle remained in the lot or parkade past 9:00 a.m. a fine was levied.

I will send this to the Board for consideration, however I do not think they will waive the fine. "

Looking into the Condo Bylaws I cannot find anything that would even relate to this, the closest is

"The Board shall have the right or entry and access to any Parking Stall, Exclusive Use Parking Stall or Parking Unit as may be necessary to permit repairs or maintenance thereof or to give access to the utility and service areas adjacent thereto;"

They had full access to clean the parking spot with zero impediment in fact I took a picture of it after cleaned.

Can I get levied a fine for anything and have to pay no matter what? Couldn't they just send me a letter saying "Please do not wear a blue shirt this week or you will be levied a 250.00 fine" or whatever they chose?

I am asking for them to show me what bylaw I broke but I think I insulted them with my previous email relating to other stuff that happened.

What are my options are any recommendations?

[JustinMCS]

I am president on the board in my building and in this case I would not have fined your vehicle.

I would have been mad at the company for starting so late. The company we use at our building is onsite at 850 and raring to go at 9. I then walk around with other board members reminding those to get out of the parkade because they are starting. Also strange the property manager is also preempting what the board will do, why is she being a cunt? "I don't think they will waive the fine."

Anyways don't really worry about it unless they come back to you and say no, we are not dropping the fine. If your car DID NOT move and affected cleaning, you get a fine.

[HomespunLobster]

Don't live in a condo unit.

Dick comments aside, be friends with the condo board. Get to know them, try and get in meetings. They are more likely to look past infractions if you are actually involved with them. I was renting in a condo, never was allowed to meeting since it was a "condo owner" only event. But I became friends with a lot of people on the board and I was warned in advance as well as leeways after the fact.

It's just mini politics with people who have nothing to do with their time. You have to be part of their circle in some way.

[dj_rice]

I hope your property management company isn't Ayre & Oxford. Oh lord are they are terrible company. Such incompetence. I no longer live in a condo but still have to deal with their BS monthly.

[ee2k]

I'm on the board in my building. In our case, when we have our cleaning of garage done, we have members that go around and contact each individual by phone to get them to move their vehicles prior to the start times. This, as you can imagine, is far above and beyond what they should be doing, especially in light of ample notice that we post weeks in advance. We have nice people in our building.

In your case, what likely happened is that they canvassed the parking lot at the start time, identified who didn't move their cars and marked them down to follow due process. They were likely within the posted times, and they could use that as their case to enforce their signs.

You pushed the limit. You didn't abide by the posted signs, and now after the fact, are trying to get out of a fine that was rightfully assessed against your unit. You knew what the times on the posted signs were, yet, you made your own arrangement with the cleaning guys to which the board was not privy to. The board could say that you didn't abide by the posted signs and may be well within their right to assess the charge.

Your situation is akin to parking on the streets during street sweeping. Just because they didn't start the work on time or are a few blocks away doesn't mean you are not in contravention. In fact Calgary Parking is there right on time to ticket and tow (it's happened to me multiple times.) I say you're lucky your board didn't tow your car away.

I also hope that they will be nice about it, but if you have a problematic building, fines such as this are the only way to keep people in line. We do go after some of our owners, or come to negotiated terms with others on fines and liabilities. Managing a building takes a lot of resources, having to cater to each individual unit/owner with special needs is especially infuriating and taxing to the volunteers that manage your building. Next time, abide by the posted rules.

Good luck.

[revelations]

We had many issues like this. Generally we were hands-off since most people were at work anyway but the occasional person who was out of town, got fined for the cleanup of their stall.

If they chose to clean up their stall with a mop and broom, the fine was waived.

Oh BTW - insulting the board of the PM NEVER helps anything or anyone. If they dont due their due dligence as a governing body, they can be held liable.

[Hallowed_point]

You were in the stall past the deadline. It's black and white. It doesn't matter if they started late. The cleaning operates under a specific time frame for a reason. If you can't handle that, I don't know why you're living in a condo. It's gonna be a bad time for you.

[ee2k]

Originally posted by HomespunLobster
Don't live in a condo unit.

Dick comments aside, be friends with the condo board. Get to know them, try and get in meetings. They are more likely to look past infractions if you are actually involved with them. I was renting in a condo, never was allowed to meeting since it was a "condo owner" only event. But I became friends with a lot of people on the board and I was warned in advance as well as leeways after the fact.

It's just mini politics with people who have nothing to do with their time. You have to be part of their circle in some way.

LOL hilarious reply. Buildings don't manage themselves, and in reality, those that are on the board are on it because they care/have a vested interest in how their building is managed - not because they have nothing to do with their time. Every building is different, every board member is different, and certainly every person in that building is different and with his/her own issues/priorities etc.

While I wouldn't characterize it as mini politics, I believe that every resident should be involved in some way: attend annual general meeting, read newsletters/communications, volunteer. The reality is that many buy into condo buildings because it's a lifestyle - low or zero maintenance, with others that look after the building etc. The notion of no involvement whatsoever is prevalent, until you have signs, fines, damage/insurance claims, assessments required to maintain building which is when people react.

All fines are negotiable, in my opinion, and dismissable too. It depends on the position the board in the specific building takes. For larger fines, we have unleashed lawyers on some owners to collect (oh, lawyers fees will be tacked to fine and recovered from the unit owner.) For smaller ones like OP's, they remain on the books and will be collected when the owner sells (some form of lien will exist.)

Btw, to the OP, if the condo bylaw allows the board to tell you not to wear a blue shirt this week and you do, yes, they can fine you for it :nut:

[leftwing]

Welcome to condo life.

Although I see your side of the situation, like others said, you pushed the limits. You were given notice but decided to make your own arrangements. It it not the cleaning guys who give you a ticket, but rather (most likely) the onsite condo manager - who didn't know about your arrangement. Next time just do what your told, what is an extra two hours on the street?

My building has a indoor visitor parking lot where visitors can park, but vistors must text in to the building manager: car make, model, licence plate, and unit visiting. The parking lot is underground so cell service isn't great, my visitor texted their car in when they got to my unit, roughly 2-3 minutes after parking. They somehow received a ticket within this time. I brought this to the building manager and showed the time on the ticket vs the time of the text which was 2 mins apart. She basically told me to kick rocks.

We often (monthly it seems) have routine maintenance on our building water system, which requires a total shut off of the water. We get notices saying "Do not use water between the hours of 8-5 as XXXX will be onsite doing routine maintenance". This can be an inconvenience when your off work during the week as you have to get up early to shower and do other things if you need water. On a couple occasions we will get an email mid-day-of maintenance saying the maintenance has been cancelled. Kind of a piss off if you have already woken up early or made other arrangements planning for no water.

Just some of the things you are at the mercy to while living in a condo....

[btimbit]

Condos seem so childish to me. If you affected the cleaning, then absolutely fine away. But since it didn't, with proof, any reasonable person would drop the fine.

[supeg]

Originally posted by JustinMCS
I am president on the board in my building and in this case I would not have fined your vehicle.

I would have been mad at the company for starting so late. The company we use at our building is onsite at 850 and raring to go at 9. I then walk around with other board members reminding those to get out of the parkade because they are starting. Also strange the property manager is also preempting what the board will do, why is she being a cunt? "I don't think they will waive the fine."

Anyways don't really worry about it unless they come back to you and say no, we are not dropping the fine. If your car DID NOT move and affected cleaning, you get a fine.

Yeah I agree, but I am more interested in the legality of the fine itself. Can you just fine anyone for anything?

[supeg]

Originally posted by ee2k
I'm on the board in my building. In our case, when we have our cleaning of garage done, we have members that go around and contact each individual by phone to get them to move their vehicles prior to the start times. This, as you can imagine, is far above and beyond what they should be doing, especially in light of ample notice that we post weeks in advance. We have nice people in our building.

In your case, what likely happened is that they canvassed the parking lot at the start time, identified who didn't move their cars and marked them down to follow due process. They were likely within the posted times, and they could use that as their case to enforce their signs.

You pushed the limit. You didn't abide by the posted signs, and now after the fact, are trying to get out of a fine that was rightfully assessed against your unit. You knew what the times on the posted signs were, yet, you made your own arrangement with the cleaning guys to which the board was not privy to. The board could say that you didn't abide by the posted signs and may be well within their right to assess the charge.

Your situation is akin to parking on the streets during street sweeping. Just because they didn't start the work on time or are a few blocks away doesn't mean you are not in contravention. In fact Calgary Parking is there right on time to ticket and tow (it's happened to me multiple times.) I say you're lucky your board didn't tow your car away.

I also hope that they will be nice about it, but if you have a problematic building, fines such as this are the only way to keep people in line. We do go after some of our owners, or come to negotiated terms with others on fines and liabilities. Managing a building takes a lot of resources, having to cater to each individual unit/owner with special needs is especially infuriating and taxing to the volunteers that manage your building. Next time, abide by the posted rules.

Good luck.

There were no posted signs. They mailed a letter three days before the date.

I am more interested in the legality of the Fine. Are you allowed as a Condo Corp to fine for whatever reason you like?

[supeg]

Originally posted by ee2k


LOL hilarious reply. Buildings don't manage themselves, and in reality, those that are on the board are on it because they care/have a vested interest in how their building is managed - not because they have nothing to do with their time. Every building is different, every board member is different, and certainly every person in that building is different and with his/her own issues/priorities etc.

While I wouldn't characterize it as mini politics, I believe that every resident should be involved in some way: attend annual general meeting, read newsletters/communications, volunteer. The reality is that many buy into condo buildings because it's a lifestyle - low or zero maintenance, with others that look after the building etc. The notion of no involvement whatsoever is prevalent, until you have signs, fines, damage/insurance claims, assessments required to maintain building which is when people react.

All fines are negotiable, in my opinion, and dismissable too. It depends on the position the board in the specific building takes. For larger fines, we have unleashed lawyers on some owners to collect (oh, lawyers fees will be tacked to fine and recovered from the unit owner.) For smaller ones like OP's, they remain on the books and will be collected when the owner sells (some form of lien will exist.)

Btw, to the OP, if the condo bylaw allows the board to tell you not to wear a blue shirt this week and you do, yes, they can fine you for it :nut:

Thanks for the info. I went through the Bylaws and saw nothing pertaining to moving a vehicle for a certain time frame, only the quote i posted in the OP.

[SportEL]

To those that know, in Condo bylaws, Does it need to specifically mention what the consequence of an infraction is such as a fine? Otherwise, one can argue that the specific fine was not mentioned in the bylaw.

[JustinMCS]

Originally posted by supeg


Yeah I agree, but I am more interested in the legality of the fine itself. Can you just fine anyone for anything?

Not only are you governed by condo specific bylaws, there are also the master set that is the Alberta Condominium Act

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/c22.pdf

Offences and penalties
79(2) Subject to subsection (1), a person who fails to comply with
this Act is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of not less than
$200 nor more than $5000.
(3) If a corporation fails to comply with this Act, each member of
the board who is knowingly a party to that failure is guilty of an
RSA 2000
Section 80 Chapter C-22 CONDOMINIUM PROPERTY ACT
61
offence and liable to a fine of not less than $200 nor more than
$5000.

[supeg]

Originally posted by JustinMCS


Not only are you governed by condo specific bylaws, there are also the master set that is the Alberta Condominium Act

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/c22.pdf

Offences and penalties
79(2) Subject to subsection (1), a person who fails to comply with
this Act is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of not less than
$200 nor more than $5000.
(3) If a corporation fails to comply with this Act, each member of
the board who is knowingly a party to that failure is guilty of an
RSA 2000
Section 80 Chapter C-22 CONDOMINIUM PROPERTY ACT
61
offence and liable to a fine of not less than $200 nor more than
$5000.

Yes I saw that. From what I understood those are only in effect if your normal bylaws have not been registered with alberta registries.

[ee2k]

Originally posted by supeg


Yes I saw that. From what I understood those are only in effect if your normal bylaws have not been registered with alberta registries.


I would imagine there's a clause in your bylaws that allows them to fine to enforce. It's specific to your bylaw so keep reading. I know ours has even though we seldom enforce.

That letter they sent you, what did it have in terms of enforcement. Any reference to a fine?

[Mitsu3000gt]

I wish I had your condo board. Nobody fines anyone for anything in my building and parking is a free-for-all, even on parkade cleaning day haha.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I wish I had your condo board. Nobody fines anyone for anything in my building and parking is a free-for-all, even on parkade cleaning day haha. :werd: Same thing at my rental unit, people leave all of their random junk in the parking stalls. Looks like shit.

[revelations]

Originally posted by supeg


Yeah I agree, but I am more interested in the legality of the fine itself. Can you just fine anyone for anything?

No they cant, but we put an addendum to our bylaws for eg. which allowed escalating fines every time the CPS showed up.

[lasimmon]

The condo board members at my building carry warning letters on them to hand out.

I parked in teh visitor and went upstairs to get the visitor pass then went back down and the lady was writing me a warning. She got upset that I didn't have a pass. Apparently going up to get one isn't acceptable :nut: :rofl:

[Kloubek]

I've been on a few boards of my own, and am currently a director for the Kincora Community Association as well.

Keep in mind these are volunteer positions, and the individuals involved are donating their time to ensure the complex is run as it should be. It is quite rare a whole group of individuals with different backgrounds and mentalities would conspire to make your life miserable. My point being that I imagine you feel like it's "you against them", but I would advise you not to think in that manner, or your attitude will come through accordingly. Do NOT make little comments, like about the blue shirt. (Though I appreciate you're being open due to writing this on Beyond)

If they fined you, then you were likely in direct contravention of the bylaws/rules. You say they sent you a letter, and as mentioned by others, you ignored it and made your own rules.

So what, right? You talked to the cleaners and all was well. Fair enough, and I really don't think you should have been fined. But you still broke the rules, and they were in their right to do so. The board can't possibly be privy to every communication that occurs between every resident and every entity in the complex.

You do have a case, in my opinion. But at this point, it isn't really about whether they were allowed to fine you - they were. It's about whether they are willing to waive it. Because that is your current scenario, you do NOT want to get lippy or angry with them. That would be a quick way to get them to ignore your request, and it is unlikely they would reconsider.

If you have any ability to get the cleaning company to email you a quick note agreeing to the fact that you talked with them at the time of the cleaning, that could do wonders for your case. Not only does it back up your claim, but it also shows that you are making an effort on your side to get this waived rather than just complaining.

If you can get your hands on that and they don't waive the fine for you, then I would think they would be acting in an unreasonable manner and just maintaining the fine to prove a point that they are THE authority of the complex. That definitely happens sometimes.

If you can get that proof, then I'd say your chances are 50/50. I would then send it in along with a polite request to vote on it during their next monthly meeting as to whether they are willing to waive. This is important, since it requires a collective decision and discussion as opposed to 1 board member (likely the president) making the call him/herself.

Good luck.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I wish I had your condo board. Nobody fines anyone for anything in my building and parking is a free-for-all, even on parkade cleaning day haha.

Exactly. And what was so hard about moving your car somewhere BEFORE 9am? Its not like they asked for 6am in the morning.

I agree you don't deserve the fine, but the rules were extremely clear, and additionally what the cleaning company said means sweet-f-all.

[lasimmon]

Probably should have talked to someone on the Condo board. Ask the cleaning company who they are talking with at the Condo board and let them know.

[gwill]

Not to throw a wrench into everyone's claim that the fine is enforceable. Depending on the bylaws there are hundreds of reasons a board can not enforce on a fine they issue. I'm on a couple of boards where the issue of enforcing fines come up daily.

We issue fines in the hopes they are a deterrent for future bad behaviour but would understand that if disputed we couldn't legally enforce a collection. There are strict rules boards must follow. We can't issue a fine for any reason and expect it to be paid. It's all dependant on the bylaws.

My condos will tow a vehicle onto the street and charge back the costs to the owners. The cost to tow typically falls around $100 and charge backs for non compliance are easier to levy and collect upon then a fine that's not always enforceable.

[Kloubek]

If a board levies a fine legitimately, and based on bylaws, there is really no appeal process (that I'm aware of) that the owner can go through, and the fine will stand if they cannot convince the board to lift it.

While forcing the funds to be paid is difficult, the one thing the board can do is put a caveat against the home so that the estoppel certificate will not be issued until the fine is paid in full. Depending on how the bylaws are written, that fine may also potentially incur interest/late fees.

Better just to clear it up if the OP is unable to have it withdrawn.

[ee2k]

Originally posted by Kloubek
While forcing the funds to be paid is difficult, the one thing the board can do is put a caveat against the home so that the estoppel certificate will not be issued until the fine is paid in full. Depending on how the bylaws are written, that fine may also potentially incur interest/late fees.


Yes. This is what we do. For larger ones, especially where a charge back is involved, lawyers do the deed with the lawyer fees also charged to the unit owner.

[gwill]

If a fine is legitimately Levied from a bylaw infraction an owner needs to pay it but from my experience many fines are issued from policies boards adopt or things boards don't like. From the sounds of it the Ops property manager wasn't able to provide a specific bylaw infraction. Not following a letter or notice about moving a car isn't always an enforceable fine.

It's not as simple as saying you recieved a fine, therefore you must pay it. If an owner has questions about the legitimacy of a fine the board and property manager should be clearly explaining the bylaw infraction. If they aren't it's most likely because they can't legally collect it.

Anyways op should have had his car towed. What condo doesn't have a tow truck on stand by on parkade cleaning day.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by gwill


Anyways op should have had his car towed. What condo doesn't have a tow truck on stand by on parkade cleaning day.

All of them?

[acedia]

That's a lot of shit to go through (talking to the guys, taking photos) just to reduce your on-street parking time by 2 hours.

[gwill]

Originally posted by lasimmon


All of them?

My condos hire a tow truck operator to be there on the day of the parkade cleaning because owners never move their vehicles. For an hour or two of work that tow truck operator makes 30-50 tows at $100 a pop.

I even had my renters contact me one day because they thought their vehicle was stolen. No... You left your vehicle in the parkade on cleaning day and it was towed a few blocks away.

Maybe I should have said any well run condo has a tow truck company on site for the day of the parkade cleaning.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Can a tow truck even get into a lot of these parkades? I'm 99% sure you couldn't get one in mine, I wish we could.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by gwill


My condos hire a tow truck operator to be there on the day of the parkade cleaning because owners never move their vehicles. For an hour or two of work that tow truck operator makes 30-50 tows at $100 a pop.

I even had my renters contact me one day because they thought their vehicle was stolen. No... You left your vehicle in the parkade on cleaning day and it was towed a few blocks away.

Maybe I should have said any well run condo has a tow truck company on site for the day of the parkade cleaning.

There isn't a chance in hell a tow truck could get my vehicle out of its spot let alone out of the garage.

[JustinMCS]

Originally posted by lasimmon


There isn't a chance in hell a tow truck could get my vehicle out of its spot let alone out of the garage.

Yeah most parkades they can't fit. However, maybe a newer building with a bigger door/ceiling height they can fit?

[gwill]

Got to keep in mind most of the vehicles vacate the parkade so they have a lot more room to work with vehicles.

I do understand sometimes height clearance is an issue... But its not as impossible as many think assuming they have the room to maneuver.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Just got my parkade cleaning notice today for next week. Letter said:

1) Move your car out by X time
2) Don't park in visitor parking (that gets cleaned too, but every year people think they are 'smart' by moving their car there while the main parkade gets cleaned)
3) Get rid of your ugly illegal storage shed, stack of winter tires, etc. in front of your car (not one person does this)

I guarantee all 3 things will be completely ignored as usual :rofl: This is why I wish I had a condo board that fined people.

[Hallowed_point]

My parkade looks amazing since yesterday's clean. It looks like damn near everyone moved and the board also threw out peoples old soccer balls, hockey sticks, boxes, empty washer fluid jugs and other such junk. They even painted all of the lines. Although, I'm sure that people will start filling up stalls with junk soon enough. It looks so trashy when people do that

Sometimes I'll move the junk around at night behind their car or right in the way so that they have to move it every time. Provides me with entertainment at least :D

[Rat Fink]

.

[speedog]

There are probably tow trucks in Calgary that can get into a 6 foot clearance parkade, I've even heard of 5'8" tow trucks.