Business closes - no $ for payroll. What next?

[AndyL]

So...

If a business ceases operation - claims they have no $ to pay remaining employees. What's the employees options? Labour board obciously, but is there any other options for restitution?

Liens on equipment? I remember claiming property from a company that went bankrupt and closed doors during work one day (under auditors scrutiny) - but that was 20+ years ago...

[Buster]

You're a priority creditor, but your options there are limited to certain dollar amounts.

With an employer you are basically taking on counter-party risk.

[Xtrema]

http://www.unifor.org/en/nortel-updates

7 fucking years.

[ExtraSlow]

Ask sanjel employees. Basically, pound sand.

[Xtrema]

Relevant

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/janice-beaton-farm-restaurant-calgary-mabou-1.3818650


The former staff have been working with an Alberta Employment Standards officer who has informed them it's difficult to recover much of what's owed to them as Farm, the corporation, has no money but has not declared bankruptcy.

As director of the corporation that owned Farm, Beaton is personally responsible for the last six months' wages, but that is further complicated because she has filed a consumer proposal — a legal process by which insolvent debtors work with creditors through a trustee over a period of up to five years to sort out their debts.

[speedog]

And if Revenue Canada is owed any monies, they will always get the first kick at the cat before any priority creditors.

[nickyh]

A company my husband worked for closed up, she owed in excess of $5M in back payroll.
Why people worked for at least 6 months on the promise they would be paid is beyond me. Luckily my husband only lost $5k or $6k in wages compared to some coworkers who lost over $20/$25K.

You have no recourse, you are no better than an unsecured creditor.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Relevant

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/janice-beaton-farm-restaurant-calgary-mabou-1.3818650
Gotta love loopholes. What she's doing is perfectly legal.

[sputnik]

I once worked for a company that tanked (Nex Innovations) and while I got my last paycheque (once I returned my laptop) I didn't get the bonus that I earned 6 months earlier.

However they had a number of assets that were sold with the bankrupcy and about a year afterwards I saw a cheque for the bonus show up in my account from the firm that handled the bankruptcy.

If they company is big, you might end up seeing some cash eventually. If the company is small with no assets, I wouldn't hold my breath. For now I wouldn't bank on seeing any money anytime soon.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by rage2

Gotta love loopholes. What she's doing is perfectly legal.

It's one thing for a factory to pull this off. Bad PR sometimes is bad for food biz, no?

And who would work for her now in the new concept.... although wine bar probably need less skill to run than a restaurant.

[infected]

Aaand... Mabou's Google and Yelp reviews are going down the crapper.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Relevant

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/janice-beaton-farm-restaurant-calgary-mabou-1.3818650



Mental note.... screw Mabou Cheese + Bar.

[adamc]

She also owns Caffe Beano! EDIT: NM, apparently she sold her stake in 2010.

If I were them I would be sitting out front of the new store in my chef whites, explaining to everyone customer who walked up what was happening.

A week of politely informing incoming customers that the proprietor is a wage thief would likely slow down the operation enough to get some notice.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by adamc
She also owns Caffe Beano!

She used to but sold in the 90s. Does she own it again?

[reijo]

You are best off finding another job ... period.

Let`s face it, if the company is out of money, how are they going to pay you? Don`t waste your time and energy.

R

[adamc]

Originally posted by reijo
You are best off finding another job ... period.

Let`s face it, if the company is out of money, how are they going to pay you? Don`t waste your time and energy.

R

I think you're missing the point, they're not "out of money". The wealthy ownership group used strategic bankruptcy of one business to avoid paying debts, while simultaneously opening another similar business in the same location.

[01RedDX]

.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by adamc


I think you're missing the point, they're not "out of money". The wealthy ownership group used strategic bankruptcy of one business to avoid paying debts, while simultaneously opening another similar business in the same location.

Now I think this happens all the time in different industries, especially manufacturing or sometimes even retail. It's not new. I'm just thinking that it may not be a good move for service industry, especially one that may take some unique talents to operate.

[adamc]

For sure, big businesses get away with it ALL the time.

However, it's fucking crazy/suicidal to do it as a small businessperson with deep roots in the community/neighbourhood. What these people are owed is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of opening an entirely new business. If you're truly insolvent, close the shop, apologize profusely, and go back into private life with your tail between your legs. In this situation she needs to pay the people, close the old shop, and then open the new one.

Shady as fuck to run a small biz this way. And this story is going to have a significant impact on the success of the new business, hopefully.

[C_Dave45]

That sucks to hear Andy. Happened two years ago almost to the day with a big reno company. A lot of people got burned.

http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/holy-bullet-dodge-batman/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386785

[finboy]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Ask sanjel employees. Basically, pound sand.

Former sanjel checking in, got laid off weeks prior to insolvency and got about 2 weeks above legal severance. Everyone after me (office staff) got legal minimum, regardless if they were there 1 year or 20+ (Aka part of the "sanjel family" :rolleyes: )

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by finboy


Former sanjel checking in, got laid off weeks prior to insolvency and got about 2 weeks above legal severance. Everyone after me (office staff) got legal minimum, regardless if they were there 1 year or 20+ (Aka part of the "sanjel family" :rolleyes: )

Not just Sanjel, Suncor also start dismissing employees with 20+ years of service with 3 months notice, no severance. Before that I think Chevron did the same.


Originally posted by adamc
Shady as fuck to run a small biz this way. And this story is going to have a significant impact on the success of the new business, hopefully.

May be. But I don't think her current cliente cares and probably are the ones who taught her to do this move.

That said, her cheese shop is awesome tho, don't know if I can quit that.

[Buster]

I don't mean to distract from the unfortunate situation with the OP, but people -especially in Canada - always seem to misplace a job with security. Or at least they over-rate that security.

A company doesn't care about you, they have no loyalty. You shouldn't need them to have loyalty, not should a person expect it.

Its really un-diversified.

[max_boost]

In before ZenOps Trump Make America Great Again Trillions in debt.

Sorry to hear AndyL!

[Star1995]

Has the company filed for bankruptcy? If yes then check out the Wage Earners Protection Program http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/wepp//index.shtml I've had to use last year and the trustee took care of almost everything, I just had to fill in the forms online and sign some papers that were sent to me.

Edit; Stay away from the Labour Relations Board, or save that as a last resort. Once you talk to them you've invoked the labour act and that becomes law. A judge can make his own rulings based on many factors.

[finboy]

Originally posted by Buster
I don't mean to distract from the unfortunate situation with the OP, but people -especially in Canada - always seem to misplace a job with security. Or at least they over-rate that security.

A company doesn't care about you, they have no loyalty. You shouldn't need them to have loyalty, not should a person expect it.

Its really un-diversified.

It really surprises me how many people think they are more than a number. A company is loyal to you up to the legal requirement of 2 weeks, that is something everyone should understand.

Be loyal to your network, your peers, but your company? Absolutely not.

[Buster]

Originally posted by finboy


It really surprises me how many people think they are more than a number. A company is loyal to you up to the legal requirement of 2 weeks, that is something everyone should understand.

Be loyal to your network, your peers, but your company? Absolutely not.

Best advice you will see all day.

"corporate culture" and "this is a family" and "we appreciate you" are all so transparently, hilariously false that I can't believe anyone believes that claptrap.

It's why I like running my own show. It's much easier to have multiple sources of revenue. I also don't have to assume no one cares about me. I know no one cares about me.

[AndyL]

I managed to exit relatively unscathed... At least I got half a paycheck - pretty much debating whether to bother with labour relations. CRA sounds to be the major creditor.

Unfortunately 3 went down with the ship... And got told sorry your fucked.

(They figured out I was gone before payday... Damnit, was trying to get paid and bounce). Missed it by 3days...

[Mixalot27]

Cheese lady released a media response on facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/JBFCandMABOU/

[Buster]

The more I read about this cheese lady, the more I find the average Joe's opinion annoying.

If you can't offer protection to (and from) Creditors, then you will see a chilling effect on investment.

People complain about how hard it is to get business loans, and then moan when those same utilize the protections that got them to lend in the first place. Do you know how hard it would be to get a mortgage if the bank wasn't allowed to foreclose on your house without interference?

Then people want their vacation back-pay from an insolvent company and owner. Without the protections she is utilizing, we might see fewer businesses opening up, and employing all of these people who can't or won't start their own business.

This cheese lady probably put all of her life savings into the restaurant, paid all of these people for months out of her own pocket while the restaurant was not cash flowing, and now they are moaning about how mean she is? No wonder these people aren't getting ahead.

[88CRX]

[i]

This cheese lady probably put all of her life savings into the restaurant, paid all of these people for months out of her own pocket while the restaurant was not cash flowing, and now they are moaning about how mean she is? No wonder these people aren't getting ahead. [/B]

Cheese lady is 80% owners of the new restaurant that opened up in the same location the Farm close up shop.

I get what you’re saying but she used the loophole to avoid paying employees and suppliers so she could fund the new restaurant. That’s some shady shit.

[G]

Originally posted by finboy


It really surprises me how many people think they are more than a number. A company is loyal to you up to the legal requirement of 2 weeks, that is something everyone should understand.

Be loyal to your network, your peers, but your company? Absolutely not.

Just another point of view here. I'm sure in a lot of companies you get lost in the shuffle but I've been with my company for 17 years and I have seen countless times the "company" helping its workers. When I had my first child I ran into one of the owners at Starbucks while I was on my two week vacation to be with mom and baby. After a bit of small chit chatting he congratulated me and the following day my manager dropped by the house with $1000 stuffed in an envelope from the owners for my newborn. Right there I knew I would be a lifer here.

The last case that stuck in my head was a coworker who reached out to HR and asked for help getting out of a vicious cycle of substance abuse. He had an intervention, payed for rehab and counselling and a guarantee of that his job will be here after he successfully completes rehab. To be fair the company I work for isn't huge but we still employ 1500+ people across Canada....but there are good companies out there.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by 88CRX


Cheese lady is 80% owners of the new restaurant that opened up in the same location the Farm close up shop.

I get what you’re saying but she used the loophole to avoid paying employees and suppliers so she could fund the new restaurant. That’s some shady shit. :werd:

[rage2]

Originally posted by G
Just another point of view here. I'm sure in a lot of companies you get lost in the shuffle but I've been with my company for 17 years and I have seen countless times the "company" helping its workers. When I had my first child I ran into one of the owners at Starbucks while I was on my two week vacation to be with mom and baby. After a bit of small chit chatting he congratulated me and the following day my manager dropped by the house with $1000 stuffed in an envelope from the owners for my newborn. Right there I knew I would be a lifer here.

The last case that stuck in my head was a coworker who reached out to HR and asked for help getting out of a vicious cycle of substance abuse. He had an intervention, payed for rehab and counselling and a guarantee of that his job will be here after he successfully completes rehab. To be fair the company I work for isn't huge but we still employ 1500+ people across Canada....but there are good companies out there.
:werd:

Just got to find the right companies that actually take care of their employees. They are out there. I've mentioned before how broke I was during my divorce. I was maxing out CC's just to live. I had mentioned my situation to some co-workers, our CEO heard about it, and personally gave me a $30k loan. I've only been with the company for 3 or 4 years at that point.

17.5 years later, still here, and still see tons of stories like mine within the company.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Buster
The more I read about this cheese lady, the more I find the average Joe's opinion annoying.

If you can't offer protection to (and from) Creditors, then you will see a chilling effect on investment.

People complain about how hard it is to get business loans, and then moan when those same utilize the protections that got them to lend in the first place. Do you know how hard it would be to get a mortgage if the bank wasn't allowed to foreclose on your house without interference?

Then people want their vacation back-pay from an insolvent company and owner. Without the protections she is utilizing, we might see fewer businesses opening up, and employing all of these people who can't or won't start their own business.

This cheese lady probably put all of her life savings into the restaurant, paid all of these people for months out of her own pocket while the restaurant was not cash flowing, and now they are moaning about how mean she is? No wonder these people aren't getting ahead.

There are people who needs the protection, and there are people who exploit the protection. There is a difference.

If Janice sold the Cheese Shop and live in a box and employee still isn't paid, this would be a non-story.

She didn't and have the capital to build a new restaurant in the same spot with majority ownership, that's the problem. Regardless, from people I talk to in the CRMR group, Janice is a nasty woman to deal with anyway.

[roopi]

Originally posted by Buster

This cheese lady probably put all of her life savings into the restaurant, paid all of these people for months out of her own pocket while the restaurant was not cash flowing, and now they are moaning about how mean she is? No wonder these people aren't getting ahead.

There are retailers/restaurants out there that run this scam on a regular basis. Open business, run up credit, don't pay bills, shut down, repeat.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by roopi


There are businesses out there that run this scam on a regular basis. Open business, run up credit, don't pay bills, shut down, repeat.

FTFY

[reijo]

A lot of people here don`t seem to know the difference between an individual and an incorporated company (which, legally, is a separate entity in itself).

In this case, an incorporated company was not able to continue in this market and shut down before they went bankrupt. Note that the company could have gone further down the hole and paid even less to the employees.

Note that an incorporated company (Ltd. or Inc.) is a separate entity (think of it as a separate person) that pays its employees, pays taxes, can own or lease property, vehicles, can declare bankruptcy even, can be sued etc. etc.

The purpose of a limited liability company (LLC - in the USA), or incorporated company is to limit liability as opposed to, say, a proprietorship. In a proprietorship the owner is personally responsible for any debts and liabilities in the company. The inc. or ltd. company removes that liability (for the most part).

There is a lot more to this but consider what could happen otherwise. Who would want to start a business if you were liable for everything that happens even frivolous law suites etc.? You could lose everything in a proprietorship including your house, vehicle, any savings, RRSP etc. The risk is quite high in a proprietorship and it maybe is not worth it.

Anyway, in this case, who`s to blame?

Most likely the economy. A lot of food and other `luxury`type of business are gone or are hurting. Anything people can cut back on in hard times usually takes a hit in times like these.

Maybe even the NDP is to blame for allowing the situation to get even worse.

There may be all kinds of other stuff happening here and I won`t pretend to know about them.

The business was around for a long time and was profitable until recently so I`m sure it was not shut down for no reason.

Hopefully that gives a bit more balance to the discussion here.

R

[jwslam]

Nevertheless, she (Janice) is still quite the character to decide to shut the place down with no notice to the employees to search for new employment, and I'm sure there were choices she could've made that directly impacted the fact that employees were not paid.

As stated in the article, $1500 to one employee is like 3 months rent, whereas to a large food supplier or the landlord or whomever could just be written off as bad debt.

[adamc]

reijo:

http://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg

[Buster]

- As far as I can tell, she only owns half of the new business, and injected no capital. At least according to her.

- I believe you can pierce the corporate veil to make directors personally responsible for some wages. So she isn't off the hook on account of the incorporated nature of the business. Although she is in a form of personal credit protection.

- There is no difference between using the protection and exploiting the protection. Your rights are your rights. (In a legal sense). Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

- if you are in a business that tends to liberally utilize these protections, then I would suggest lobbying the government to change the rules, or increase your ability to determine the "credit worthiness" of your employer. Wages due is just a form of AR, and every non-donkey company out there understands that extending credit to someone is counter-party risk. Large corporations have credit departments that look like a big banks, just to assess counter-party risk.

[Rocket1k78]

Originally posted by adamc
reijo:

http://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg

Well Done.

Yeah she might've did things legally but shes a nasty person for what she pulled. She knew well before that she was closing but she didnt even have the decency to give her staff the heads up so they could secure other jobs and to top it all off she screws them on the final paycheck.

And i think we all know she's got her own money invested in the cheese place

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Buster
- There is no difference between using the protection and exploiting the protection. Your rights are your rights. (In a legal sense). Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

One is for protection, one is for gain.

It's no different than someone transfer company to another person can declare bankruptcy and tell creditors to pound sand.

[BigMass]

Typical Alberta. I work in oil and gas and I have my own incorporated company that employs, "tremendous people" such as myself and.... yeah, myself! The old, "I'm just an employee for my corporation which I wholly own" routine/loophole that Albertans just love and that the government should have closed 10,000 years ago. Oh, I'm just an employee of my own company which contracts out to other companies lol (and only has one employee, ME). What a freakin joke that has been over the years. Everyone i work with is not really an employee but a, "contractor" lol. Shut it down and tax these f-kers and hold them responsible.

Oh and this is priceless; looks like we have our own wannabe Trumps in Alberta as well. Stiffing people because, "it's not me, it's the company" lol. No responsibility at all!

https://www.facebook.com/JBFCandMABOU/videos/10153739456886486/

That Viking range in the background could be sold to pay off the poor employees that you stiffed that can barely make rent. And in that entire video you said and mentioned nothing about the struggles of your former employees and what you, a rich person, will do about it to help them because it is ethical and moral, regardless of legality.

[adamc]

lol some gold in those comments on that Facebook thread, she's getting destroyed on every single post.