Help wiring in GFCI

[JC522]

Hey guys, I'm trying to wire in a gfci switch after a bathroom reno. In this configuration the bathroom lights and fan work. The lone hot wire capped off is on a seperate wire run with the white wire connected to the 2 light beige wires. If that white wire isn't connected to the 2 beige wires the lights still turn off and on with the switch but the fan doesn't work.

Do I wire in the hot and the white wire onto the bottom of the GFCI and then the 2 blacks and the 2 beige wires onto the load side of the gfci? I'm a little lost on this and any help would be greatly appreciated

https://68.media.tumblr.com/4bba8cc82b5a9467c4ee56aaf0d83c05/tumblr_ogppohuJr61r8odjko1_1280.jpg

edit: The bathroom lights aren't over the bathtub or anything

[Buster]

I have no idea why the neutral is behaving that way. But it doesn't sound good. Is that capped black wire energized?

But when I wire a GFCI, I pull it all apart, put the power back on and use a circuit tester to determine what the line is, and what the loads are.

then you can follow the instructions for the GFCI. You need to make sure that you have the load/line correct on a GFCI.

I also presume you could pig-tail in the loads in this case. I don't think having the lights behind a GFCI is a problem code wise, but I don't think it's common, either.

[JC522]

nvm the 2 beige wires don't need the white wire for the fan to work. I just wired the white wire and the black wire to the gfci alone but I cant get power to it. The reset button won't stay in

edit: Yeah the black wire that was by itself is energized. When I touc the black wire and the white wire with a multimeter I'm getting about 120v

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by JC522
nvm the 2 beige wires don't need the white wire for the fan to work. I just wired the white wire and the black wire to the gfci alone but I cant get power to it. The reset button won't stay in

edit: Yeah the black wire that was by itself is energized. When I touc the black wire and the white wire with a multimeter I'm getting about 120v

GFCI's can be funny beasts. Without getting overly technical they measure the current coming in and the current going out, if there's a discrepancy it assumes that current is being lost somewhere creating a dangerous scenario so it "trips" the receptacle. Again this is overly simplified but gives the overall idea.

The issue is a GFCI protects not just that receptacle but everything on that circuit. There are many things that could be on the circuit currently that the GFCI doesn't "like" so it's tripping. I've seen other GFCI's, LED lights, bathroom fans, laptop computers that will cause nuisance tripping, sometimes it can be tricky to determine the cause.

So troubleshooting. The GFCI receptacle requires a potential difference of 120v hot to neutral. Confirm that the black is in fact hot by measuring it to ground, then confirm the neutral is correct by measuring hot to neutral. Once those are confirmed wire hot to the gold screw on the GFCI and neutral to the silver screw. If the GFCI does not function as in you can not reset it because it's in a permanently tripped state your issues are likely one of two things. Bad GFCI, or you have something on that same branch circuit that the GFCI doesn't "like". You can install another GFCI you know to be good to eleiminate that possibility. Solving the 2nd issue is more difficult. My first step would be to fully dissemble the wires in that box, the fan, the lights and the light switch. I would then install the GFCI with everything else disconnected, you may find that narrows the culprit down. There used to be a Code rule that didn't allow bathroom lights to be on a GFCI protected circuit, not sure if that rule still exists.

Issues like this can be a real PITA to figure out. I had one similar scenario where I bashed my head against the wall for a couple hours before determining it was a faulty GFCI out of the box so don't rule that out.

[JC522]

I took the multimeter and touched black to white and got 120, then I touched black t ground and got 120 as well. I put the black on the hot line side, the white to the line white side and connected the green ground wire from the outlet to the bare ground wire there. I turned the circuit breaker back on and the reset button still wouldn't go in. It's not catching and tripping, it just doesn't catch at all

Since the lights and fan work, I'm assuming they're on their own circuit and can be ruled out as seperate for this gfci wiring. Since there's no other wires connected to the black or white romex, I'm assuming it's an end of line

[Buster]

If you don't need to protect the whole circuit, and are just worried about killing yourself with that particular plug, I think you would be fine to pigtail the GFCI into the hot, and forget about the load entirely.

But I'm not an electrician....

[JC522]

haha ya worried about killing myself is the main thing. From further inspection it looks like there are 2 circuits inside that same box. The light/fan circuit which is all working and then the other circuit which has 3 wires (white,black,bare). The circuit with the 3 wires is the one I' hook up to the gfci but the outlet still won't catch. The only thing I can think of is that the bare ground wires aren't connected to the grounding nut in the back of the box and are just capped together. Would that make a difference?

https://68.media.tumblr.com/6d8d4d556e3aa218133a038e122f6ce5/tumblr_ogpxe4xOAV1r8odjko1_540.jpg

https://68.media.tumblr.com/fe6d111e73ed447e9c44d2f4f44e5758/tumblr_ogpxwie2Rd1r8odjko1_1280.jpg
The wires on the left are to the fan and lights which are working, the wires in my hand are the ones I'm trying to wire up to the gfci

[rx7_turbo2]

You can't see everything on the branch circuit you're trying to add a GFCI receptacle too. You can assume it's the end of the line but what else is on that circuit? More receptacles, what's plugged into them? I had to troubleshoot a very similar problem in my brother in laws house. GFCI in upper south facing washroom would not reset. Threw my circuit tracer on the circuit and marked everything in the house on that circuit. The culprit turned out to be a hair straightener plugged into a bedroom receptacle on the north facing side of the house. Unplugged hair straightener the GFCI worked fine. I listed other things I've seen cause issues in my first post, I've also been told an electric toothbrush caused an issue for another electrician friend. Are you sure the circuit isn't already GFCI protected by either another GFCI receptacle or a GFCI breaker?

The ground screw on the box is only to ground the metal box, while it should be properly bonded it likely isn't the issue here.

Again if given 120v and grounded the receptacle should function properly. If it doesn't there's really only the two options I mentioned.

[JC522]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
You can't see everything on the branch circuit you're trying to add a GFCI receptacle too. You can assume it's the end of the line but what else is on that circuit? More receptacles, what's plugged into them? I had to troubleshoot a very similar problem in my brother in laws house. GFCI in upper south facing washroom would not reset. Threw my circuit tracer on the circuit and marked everything in the house on that circuit. The culprit turned out to be a hair straightener plugged into a bedroom receptacle on the north facing side of the house. Unplugged hair straightener the GFCI worked fine. I listed other things I've seen cause issues in my first post, I've also been told an electric toothbrush caused an issue for another electrician friend. Are you sure the circuit isn't already GFCI protected by either another GFCI receptacle or a GFCI breaker?

The ground screw on the box is only to ground the metal box, while it should be properly bonded it likely isn't the issue here.

Again if given 120v and grounded the receptacle should function properly. If it doesn't there's really only the two options I mentioned.

Thanks so much for the help, I really appreciate it. The breaker doesn't appear to be a gfci breaker. When I switch that breaker off to see what is connected to that circuit it seems like power is cut to the bathroom, master bedroom and a small ensuite with no bath in the master bedroom. I have a blown lightbulb in the ensuite and in the master bedroom, that wouldn't be enough to trip a gfci would it? I'm going to dig around a bit more tomorrow as it's getting late now. Oh yeah, the outlet in the small ensuite isn't a gfci outlet and there's nothing plugged into it

[mobius]

I think you guys are missing a key piece of electrical troubleshooting evidence.

The wire that you are attempting to hook up to the GFCI is much newer than the other wires in the box, which tells me that someone has added it relatively recently.

My thought is that the original wires in the box may be switched with the light (commonly done in that era), and the new wire was added as a source of constant power for the plug.

It possibly goes to the switch box, or to a plug close by on the other side of the wall (or somewhere else entirely, no way to tell from the picture).

My first though would be that the neutral needs to stay tied into the beige wires from the old wiring (assuming that those wires and the new wire both are powered from the same circuit breaker).

Then you would need to take a small piece of white wire and connect it to those 3 as well, to make a 'pigtail', which would then connect to the GFCI silver terminal (line side).

The single new black wire would then connect to the brass line side terminal of the GFCI.

As was mentioned, the new wire ground should be tied to the ground screw before it goes out to the GFCI as well.

If you can find the other end of that newer wire, it would likely help you understand what is going on in this circuit.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by mobius
I think you guys are missing a key piece of electrical troubleshooting evidence.

The wire that you are attempting to hook up to the GFCI is much newer than the other wires in the box, which tells me that someone has added it relatively recently.

My thought is that the original wires in the box may be switched with the light (commonly done in that era), and the new wire was added as a source of constant power for the plug.

It possibly goes to the switch box, or to a plug close by on the other side of the wall (or somewhere else entirely, no way to tell from the picture).

My first though would be that the neutral needs to stay tied into the beige wires from the old wiring (assuming that those wires and the new wire both are powered from the same circuit breaker).

Then you would need to take a small piece of white wire and connect it to those 3 as well, to make a 'pigtail', which would then connect to the GFCI silver terminal (line side).

The single new black wire would then connect to the brass line side terminal of the GFCI.

As was mentioned, the new wire ground should be tied to the ground screw before it goes out to the GFCI as well.

If you can find the other end of that newer wire, it would likely help you understand what is going on in this circuit.

Yes agreed, the 2 conductor NMD90 he's attempting to tie onto for the GFCI receptacle has been added relatively recently I believe. However I got him to test for 120v to ground and 120v to that "new" neutral, both checkout, with a proper ground that should be enough to allow the receptacle to operate properly. The fact it remains in the tripped state and can not be reset suggests to me that new line is coming from somewhere else that has something on the circuit causing the issue. It's tough to diagnose these issues like this because I'd really need to walk around the house. Like Möbius said if it's a recently new wire it's likely not going that far, fed from the other side if the wall or maybe a room above or below?

You're going to have to do some more investigating.

[Crazyjoker77]

Lots of bad information in this thread... This should be dead simple.


https://68.media.tumblr.com/fe6d111e73ed447e9c44d2f4f44e5758/tumblr_ogpxwie2Rd1r8odjko1_1280.jpg

when you take your meter and connect it across the white and black in you hand do you have 120v?(seems you already confirmed this)

Where these the wires that were connected to the plug that was their prior?


If so all you need to do is connect the black to the brass screw on the line side. and the white to the silver screw on the line side and leave the "load" with nothing on it. Theoretically you don't even need the ground for the plug to work(as it is a non current carrying conductor) but it is required as per the electrical code so the green/bare wire goes to the green screw.

If that doesn't work the GFCI plug is defective plain and simple...



The issue is a GFCI protects not just that receptacle but everything on that circuit. There are many things that could be on the circuit currently that the GFCI doesn't "like" so it's tripping. I've seen other GFCI's, LED lights, bathroom fans, laptop computers that will cause nuisance tripping, sometimes it can be tricky to determine the cause.

A GFCI receptacle does NOT protect everything on the circuit it only protects whatever is plugged into that receptacle and the wiring/devices connected to the load terminals(essentially making its own branch circuit). anything before that is only protected by the circuit breaker.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Crazyjoker77
Lots of bad information in this thread... This should be dead simple.


https://68.media.tumblr.com/fe6d111e73ed447e9c44d2f4f44e5758/tumblr_ogpxwie2Rd1r8odjko1_1280.jpg

when you take your meter and connect it across the white and black in you hand do you have 120v?(seems you already confirmed this)

Where these the wires that were connected to the plug that was their prior?


If so all you need to do is connect the black to the brass screw on the line side. and the white to the silver screw on the line side and leave the "load" with nothing on it. Theoretically you don't even need the ground for the plug to work(as it is a non current carrying conductor) but it is required as per the electrical code so the green/bare wire goes to the green screw.

If that doesn't work the GFCI plug is defective plain and simple...




A GFCI receptacle does NOT protect everything on the circuit it only protects whatever is plugged into that receptacle and the wiring/devices connected to the load terminals(essentially making its own branch circuit). anything before that is only protected by the circuit breaker.

When I said it was protecting everything on that circuit it was because his first post made it sound like he was using the load side of the GFCI receptacle for the lights and fan, I wanted to eliminate that as a possibility. In addition it is possible the wires he's tieing onto in this box are fed from the load side of an already existing GFCI receptacle, 2 GFCI in a circuit is something I've seen cause issues. A faulty GFCI is possible it's one of the possibilities I mentioned earlier but it's not the only possibility as you suggested. I would however swap in a known to be good GFCI first, something I also suggested already.

[Crazyjoker77]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


When I said it was protecting everything on that circuit it was because his first post made it sound like he was using the load side of the GFCI receptacle for the lights and fan, I wanted to eliminate that as a possibility. In addition it is possible the wires he's tieing onto in this box are fed from the load side of an already existing GFCI receptacle, 2 GFCI in a circuit is something I've seen cause issues. A faulty GFCI is possible it's one of the possibilities I mentioned earlier but it's not the only possibility as you suggested. I would however swap in a known to be good GFCI first, something I also suggested already.

Still not buying it. even if he was using the load side its still not protecting "everything on the circuit". The way you worded it is very bad and would lead people to believe stuff to be protected that really isn't.

a second GFCI on a already GFCI protected circuit can most defiantly cause issues. But in the first picture you see he tied the neutral in with the others IF this was already on the load side of a GFCI circuit that would be enough to trip the GFCI circuit and the black single wire would of went dead since there would be some amount of current traveling back on those neutrals from the lights and fans being on but no current on the single disconnected black wire would be way more than a 0.05mA differential required to trip the Device. Which he would then have to hunt down and reset.

sure a faulty GFCI isnt the only option but it is the most likely by a very wide margin. I've had 4 out of a box of 10 be faulty before and those were leviton plugs which generally are higher quality than most of the crap from home depot.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Crazyjoker77


Still not buying it. even if he was using the load side its still not protecting "everything on the circuit". The way you worded it is very bad and would lead people to believe stuff to be protected that really isn't.

a second GFCI on a already GFCI protected circuit can most defiantly cause issues. But in the first picture you see he tied the neutral in with the others IF this was already on the load side of a GFCI circuit that would be enough to trip the GFCI circuit and the black single wire would of went dead since there would be some amount of current traveling back on those neutrals from the lights and fans being on but no current on the single disconnected black wire would be way more than a 0.05mA differential required to trip the Device. Which he would then have to hunt down and reset.

sure a faulty GFCI isnt the only option but it is the most likely by a very wide margin. I've had 4 out of a box of 10 be faulty before and those were leviton plugs which generally are higher quality than most of the crap from home depot.

I was attempting to explain that other devices connected to the load side of the GFCI can cause nuisance tripping. If I got into what you did by explaining current differential and how tieing the neutrals together would do this or that I was afraid we'd lose OP. That's why I said "protecting everything" was a simplified explanation. It's also why I advised to test and confirm that there was a hot and neutral separate from the lights and fan in that box. Once that was confirmed the very first thing I said to do was install a known to be functional GFCI to eliminate that as a possibility. I only talked about another issue being possible if replacing the GFCI didn't work. You and I are on the same page here, perhaps I should only have mentioned another possibility after swapping the GFCI didn't work. My point was that there may be other possibilities and I was working through what they could be. As I've also mentioned previously I've had out of the box GFCI failures as well.

[JC522]

Hey guys, ya when I first attempted it there were so many wires and I was just confused. I assumed the other wires had to go into the load side but after leaving them conencted and they were wrking fine on their own I just left them. I took the newer cable and just plugged them into the gfci and it still wouldn't work. I went and got a new gfci, wired in the new cable to the line side of the gfci and everything works now. Thanks so much for the help and I learned quite a bit from this thread

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by JC522
Hey guys, ya when I first attempted it there were so many wires and I was just confused. I assumed the other wires had to go into the load side but after leaving them conencted and they were wrking fine on their own I just left them. I took the newer cable and just plugged them into the gfci and it still wouldn't work. I went and got a new gfci, wired in the new cable to the line side of the gfci and everything works now. Thanks so much for the help and I learned quite a bit from this thread

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Once those are confirmed wire hot to the gold screw on the GFCI and neutral to the silver screw. If the GFCI does not function as in you can not reset it because it's in a permanently tripped state your issues are likely one of two things. Bad GFCI, or you have something on that same branch circuit that the GFCI doesn't "like". You can install another GFCI you know to be good to eleiminate that possibility.

Glad that solved the issue, I should have done as joker mentioned and kept things simple from the beginning, my apologies if I confused the issue.

[suntan]

Trump will make GFCIs great again.

[JC522]

While I have you guys here, can I ask you another question? So I bought a bunch of these Legrand adorne light switches that look like this:

http://www.brandlighting.com/images/adorne/ASPD1532.jpg

On the back there's a slot hole (2 holes for each one) for "hot", "1 pole" and "3 way". I know that the switch wires go to hot and 1 pole, the illuminated LED wires, there's 2 wires for it, one goes into the other slot for 1 pole and the other goes to the slot for 3 way as per instructions. No neutral wire. I have it all set up and working but now I notice the cfl bulb just faintly flickers; not even the whole bulb just a quarter of the first coil. Seems to flicker once every 4 seconds

From googling around I learned that the switch is using the white wire from the light fixture as the neutral and this is causing a small amount of current to go through the cfl. My question is, is there any way to stop this tiny flicker?

[Crazyjoker77]

Those style of switches are designed for incandescent bulbs only and I'm sure if you read the instructions it will say that its not designed for CFL/LED. The filtering and electronics in the ballasts really dont behave well with that leakage current.

Not only that the flicker will shorten the life of the bulb by a fair amount.

Another thing that isn't particular to that switch but most of those illuminated off switches is that they are pretty prone to start flickering themselves withing the first 2years. Most of them use the same type of micro FL/neon bulb that is in those red lights on power strips that almost always start flickering shortly after purchase. The bulb usually is not serviceable in the switches either...

I'm sure if you tried every bulb out there you would probably find one that would play nicely but it would be purely trial and error and a lot of luck.

[rx7_turbo2]

I'm not familiar with that specific switch but I suspect joker is right about it's compatibility with cfl/led.

[JC522]

That's a let down. I noticed on the packaging of the more expensive switches I bought in that style that it says CFL/LED and I had to wire on a neutral. It's just the cheaper normal switches that didn't. Funny though because right on their site it says:

What lights can be controlled with adorne switches?

Compatible loads (i.e., lights) are listed on the device product detail pages on this site, as well as in the product catalog. In general, adorne switches work with all lighting types.

At least the illumination light is removable because I had to purchase it separately and wire it into the switch. I assume when I remove the illumination light then it'll work with LED and CFL without causing it to flicker because it won't be sending current to the light anymore when it's switched off

[suntan]

A switch needs a neutral? WTF?