Drunk driving charge even if you weren't driving?

[Seth1968]

I was thinking about the topic after reading about the drunky pilot being charged with having care and control of an aircraft while impaired, and how this relates to impaired car driving law.

It seems our impaired driving laws are a mish-mash of both Federal and Provincial law, but my main point is that one can be charged with impaired impaired driving without even driving. Examples are sleeping drunk in the back seat, or even putting something in the trunk while over the limit.

Reading a bunch of info on the topic, I recall coming across a statement that in some jurisdictions you can be charged with impaired driving for just being near your vehicle.

Now if even some of that is true, it means you're being punished for possible intent. Or to be more blunt, you're being punished for a perceived thought.

One main point of the law is to protect others from others. But in this regard, how would one be endangering others given the examples I posted?

[95EagleAWD]

It's impaired care and control if you're not driving, not DUI.

I would hardly think people have actually been CONVICTED of it, if they were drunk and putting something in their car.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
It's impaired care and control if you're not driving, not DUI.


Regardless, it doesn't negate my point of being punished when you haven't endangered anyone else.

As far as the trunk thing goes, I'll look into it further, but I believe it's Quebec that has that law.

[revelations]

Canadian Motor vehicle laws are somewhat unlike criminal laws in the sense that its more of a "mensrea" (guilty mind) issue. Wonder if this is why drunk driving causing death laws, are somewhat lax.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Regardless, it doesn't negate my point of being punished when you haven't endangered anyone else.

As far as the trunk thing goes, I'll look into it further, but I believe it's Quebec that has that law.

I agree, but tons of laws punish you for not endangering anyone else. Speeding, not signalling, rolling a stop sign... All of those are illegal, but you probably won't hurt anyone doing them. Hell, you PROBABLY won't hurt anyone driving home from the bar drunk, but it's still illegal.

[Seth1968]

Yep, Quebec. I don't know about the other provinces yet.


Care or control of a vehicle

The law not only prohibits impaired driving, but also having the care or control of a vehicle while impaired. Here are some situations that can have the same consequences as impaired driving: sitting in the driver’s seat, even if the vehicle is stopped or broken down being in the vehicle (even asleep on the back seat) and having the possibility of starting the engine being near the vehicle, for example to brush snow off the car or put things in the trunk

https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/road-safety/behaviours/drinking-and-driving/what-the-law-says/

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


I agree, but tons of laws punish you for not endangering anyone else. Speeding, not signalling, rolling a stop sign... All of those are illegal, but you probably won't hurt anyone doing them. Hell, you PROBABLY won't hurt anyone driving home from the bar drunk, but it's still illegal.

I see your point, but in all those examples, one is in the midst of a possibly "dangerous to others" action (actually driving). In that sense, it doesn't apply to my point.

[Seth1968]

In R. v. Boudreault, a Quebec driver was appealing his conviction under s. 253 after he fell asleep behind the wheel while waiting for a cab to pick him up. He was acquitted at trial, lost a Crown appeal and finally won out in the Supreme Court.

In its decision, the court spelled out the equation for care and control:

"An intentional course of action related to the vehicle, by an impaired individual, in circumstances that create a realistic risk of danger to persons or property".

The ruling established a low threshold for what risk means, but said it must be realistic instead of just “theoretically possible.”

Too bad the guy had to go through emotional and financial ruin before the Supreme Court dished out some common sense.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by revelations
Canadian Motor vehicle laws are somewhat unlike criminal laws in the sense that its more of a "mensrea" (guilty mind) issue.

Yep, law based in not only emotion, but a violation of civil rights.

Imagine having some drinks at a bar, getting into your car, and thinking, "I need to sleep. then I'll decide what to do". So your intention is to avoid possibly endangering others, but wait, here comes the law with stick in hand.

Bottom line. You can be charged if you're over the limit and have the ability to operate a vehicle. Hmm. So, we should ALL be charged for having the ability to speed :nut:

[ercchry]

I know someone in Ontario that got one for sitting on their dock, cause their boat keys were in the ignition (which 95% of the cottaging community does all the time) tied to the dock

[NoPulp]

I have a friend that has a DUI for just grabbing something out of his car. Though thats what he remembers at the time of being drunk...

It is a hard thing to judge what the intention of a drunk person with keys to a vehicle are.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by NoPulp
It is a hard thing to judge what the intention of a drunk person with keys to a vehicle are.

And that's exactly why the Supreme Court of Canada ruled:


...it must be realistic instead of just “theoretically possible.”

[pheoxs]

Out of curiosity does anyone know what the punishment for being impaired and charged under the care and control of a vehicle would be?

Curious if its still a criminal charge (prevent international travel) and if it also would result in a license suspension even though you weren't driving? Or is it just a fine and demerits?

[Seth1968]

^ As far as I know, the charges are no different than a DUI.

http://clg.ab.ca/programs-services/dial-a-law/impaired-driving/

[Rat Fink]

.

[pheoxs]

Ah, thanks for that. Presumed it would be less if you're sleeping in the back of your car versus bombing down deerfoot while blitzed but I guess not.

[Seth1968]

^ Also, it's a myth that you can't be charged for these types of crimes on private property.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but its also a DUI if you refuse a breathalyzer.

Personally I am in favor of ridiculously harsh DUI laws (my personal opinion is a full on DUI should carry a 10+ year prison sentence, or $150K fine and lifetime driving ban, or something similarly extreme but I am likely in the minority on that one), but I also recognize the laws are too ambiguous in some areas.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
/snip/ but I also recognize the laws are too ambiguous in some areas.

IMO, not just ambiguous, but in many cases, ludicrous. That is ruining someones life via a theoretical possibility charge.

[revelations]

AB drunk driving laws are not always black and white, and change all the time - especially due to case law.

Eg. Drunk guy stumbles out of a house party to get something out of his trunk, while parked at friends' house hes intending to stay at for the night. Getting charged would be a dumb move.


Driving while over 80/1000 is a criminal offense but its not automatically a conviction. Back in my days in BC - there was a 1/3 chance of actual conviction of impaired drivers.

Driving while 50/1000 but less than 80 is not a criminal offense (but still penalties like 24 suspension, tow, etc.).

[revelations]

Originally posted by Seth1968
^ Also, it's a myth that you can't be charged for these types of crimes on private property.

I think citizens confuse the right to have open booze on private property from the PRIVILEGE of operating a motor vehicle (even if on private property).

[ercchry]

Originally posted by revelations


I think citizens confuse the right to have open booze on private property from the PRIVILEGE of operating a motor vehicle (even if on private property).

Or the right to refuse entry to private property to police? :dunno:

[revelations]

Originally posted by ercchry


Or the right to refuse entry to private property to police? :dunno:

Not if the police witness a criminal act being committed. Drinking and driving is one example.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by revelations


Not if the police witness a criminal act being committed. Drinking and driving is one example.

Well unless you're throwing empties at the guy that's a tough one :rofl:

But with all this talk, what's the deal with golf carts? They will serve you drinks right from the driver's seat while you're playing but technically you are operating a vehicle with a motor on private property

[revelations]

Originally posted by ercchry


Well unless you're throwing empties at the guy that's a tough one :rofl:

But with all this talk, what's the deal with golf carts? They will serve you drinks right from the driver's seat while you're playing but technically you are operating a vehicle with a motor on private property

Golf carts fall under "prohibited (on a highway) miniature vehicle” status (same as pocket bikes, go carts, etc.)

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjNuM2lzKbRAhUEeFAKHXBMA5YQFggaMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.transportation.alberta.ca%2Fcontent%2Fdoctype45%2Fproduction%2Fsmallvehiclesinab3.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGiT6TuuyqZ5mQKxvh8vzpuCTh5hw&sig2=E6fyVqpEchI-n2WVIxxOnA&bvm=bv.142059868,d.ZWM

If you ARE found driving one on PUBLIC ROADS while drunk, you can get charged however.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/05/18/boyle-rcmp-pull-over-golf-cart-suspend-mans-drivers-licence

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by ercchry


Well unless you're throwing empties at the guy that's a tough one :rofl:

But with all this talk, what's the deal with golf carts? They will serve you drinks right from the driver's seat while you're playing but technically you are operating a vehicle with a motor on private property

On a similar note, a friend of mine almost got a ticket for "drinking in public" for picking up empty beer cans other people left around as litter near a river, and bringing them to a garbage can. He was caught holding a bunch of empties, trying to do a good thing, and was barely able to talk his way out of a ticket.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by revelations


Golf carts fall under "prohibited (on a highway) miniature vehicle” status.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjNuM2lzKbRAhUEeFAKHXBMA5YQFggaMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.transportation.alberta.ca%2Fcontent%2Fdoctype45%2Fproduction%2Fsmallvehiclesinab3.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGiT6TuuyqZ5mQKxvh8vzpuCTh5hw&sig2=E6fyVqpEchI-n2WVIxxOnA&bvm=bv.142059868,d.ZWM

Doesn't make mention to the legality of driving under the influence... and also states that they are technically a motorized vehicle.... that operates on private property, which is still a motorized vehicle being driven under the influence on private property

[colinxx235]

^

I can also confirm a friend was charged with a DUI while operating those small bikes he won from the stampede near the Mckenzie golf course a few years back. Cops saw him from 22x and came down to them being dumb idiots (plus they had his truck there to get the bikes down near the golf course) :rofl:

[revelations]

^ was he on public roads/sidewalks?

[colinxx235]

Originally posted by revelations
^ was he on public roads/sidewalks?


sure was, just outside of the mckenzie meadows golf course on that dirt road. cops were doing a speed trap on 22x when they saw his truck go down the road and then a few adults were ripping on pocket bikes in that area. (not too bright)


edit: I actually don't know if they were in the mckenzie parking lot, or the driving range precisely, he wasn't exactly thrilled about the details back then. And also the separation of private/public on that road I dunnno :dunno:

[dubhead]

Originally posted by colinxx235
^

I can also confirm a friend was charged with a DUI while operating those small bikes he won from the stampede near the Mckenzie golf course a few years back. Cops saw him from 22x and came down to them being dumb idiots (plus they had his truck there to get the bikes down near the golf course) :rofl:

A friend of mine got a a full DUI driving a pocket bike around the parking lot of the local small town pub.

[cancer man]

Don't walk your dog while inebriated.