2017/2018 Canada equalization payments have been calculated

[Buster]

If I wasn't stuck with a Canadian passport, and Canadian family, I'd get the fuck out of this country ASAP. It's full of stupids.

http://i.imgur.com/b1RRQtB.png

[bjstare]

Perks of working for a global company, I'm seriously looking to GTFO within the next couple of years. The shit-ass weather, combined with the stupids out east, no thank you.

[Sentry]

Does the US do this as well? Or are states like Michigan left to fend for themselves.

[01RedDX]

.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Sentry
Does the US do this as well? Or are states like Michigan left to fend for themselves.

Americans generally don't have a philosophical issue with the idea of labour mobility. Canadians do. So trying to keep people from re-locating around the country to balance labour surpluses/demand is more acceptable to Americans.

[Gestalt]

I'm confused? What's the problem?

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


Americans generally don't have a philosophical issue with the idea of labour mobility. Canadians do. So trying to keep people from re-locating around the country to balance labour surpluses/demand is more acceptable to Americans.

This is false. Most Americans have changed states more than the average Canadian has changed provinces.

And who exactly is in charge of preventing moving, and "balancing labour" in the US?

[spikerS]

I am a little confused by the graphic with little information in it.

Does the graphic represent the amount that each province payed out into equalization funds, or is it how much each province received in equalization payments...Also, do the different shades of grey mean anything? and why is Saskatchewan green?

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gestalt


This is false. Most Americans have changed states more than the average Canadian has changed provinces.

And who exactly is in charge of preventing moving, and "balancing labour" in the US?

My point was unclear, but I meant that Americans are generally more mobile and willing to move.

Social programs and safety nets result in less labour mobility as the desire and benefit of moving is reduced. Americans move because otherwise they might go hungry. They also work harder than Canadians, but that's another story.

[Buster]

Originally posted by spikerS
I am a little confused by the graphic with little information in it.

Does the graphic represent the amount that each province payed out into equalization funds, or is it how much each province received in equalization payments...Also, do the different shades of grey mean anything? and why is Saskatchewan green?

The graphic was pulled from Saskatchewan site, so that's why it is highlighted.

Equalization payments come from the federal government, and are paid out to each province according to a "formula". So the numbers represent how much of the pie each province is getting.

[My_name_is_Rob]

Originally posted by cjblair
I'm seriously looking to GTFO within the next couple of years. The shit-ass weather, combined with the stupids out east, no thank you.

+1 to this. Lately I haven't felt very patriotic to this country at all. It's hard, since it's basically the east vs the west, and the east has most of the power.

[01RedDX]

.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Buster


My point was unclear, but I meant that Americans are generally more mobile and willing to move.


Americans generally have more places to go, depending on the field/industry they want to work in.

[ZenOps]

Equality is brutal in the US. Hawaiian welfare recipient gets $60,590 while the rest of the country gets $16,000 or so.

$20 Trillion debt in the US makes anything in the low Billions seem like peanuts. If its a race to the bottom, Canada is right there with the US.

Alberta grain farmer with worldwide wheat at $140 per ton is probably crying right now. Galen Weston selling bread for $2 will probably clear a solid $100 million just on the wheat to bread spread. Try to convince a white central US grain farmer that he must subsidize a Polynesian Hawaiian welfare recipient for $60K each and every year - and you begin to understand resentment is much much higher than Alberta/Quebec/Ontario will ever be.

America is much more likely to not pay taxes, the country is basically founded on that idea.

[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
What kind of defeatist attitude is that? No better than Americans wanting to move cause of Trump.

The weather? We're back to our normal weather, what's the problem? Ride it out, by the time the economy starts to improve, it'll be election time anyways.

Canada's problem is more fundamental and structural than one candidate you don't like winning an election.

[01RedDX]

.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


My point was unclear, but I meant that Americans are generally more mobile and willing to move.

Social programs and safety nets result in less labour mobility as the desire and benefit of moving is reduced. Americans move because otherwise they might go hungry. They also work harder than Canadians, but that's another story.

I won't be as brazen and pretend I know why people move. But I would think the given weather, and the shear number of places to move in the US would be bigger factors. Like really. From Clagary, where would you go? Vancouver? Toronto? Winnipeg?

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


I do not recall ever hearing this much complaining about our "fundamental and structural problems" before the leftists got into government here.

:nut:

:rofl:

Sorry what? Practically every change the liberals want to make are "fundamental" and "structural" :rofl:

Apparently you've forgotten the disease known as HDS, its still out there and well. The bitching from the left was RIDICULOUS relative to what Harper ACTUALLY did :banghead:

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


The graphic was pulled from Saskatchewan site, so that's why it is highlighted.

Equalization payments come from the federal government, and are paid out to each province according to a "formula". So the numbers represent how much of the pie each province is getting.

Piece of the equalization pie. We receive billions in Federal social and health transfers which total far more than equalization transfer.

If the formula was more lax, so Alberta got some equalization, then so would everyone else.

I guess I don't understand why you are mad.

[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


I do not recall ever hearing this much complaining about our "fundamental and structural problems" before the leftists got into government here.

then you weren't listening. Canada was broken before The Snowboarder was elected.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Piece of the equalization pie. We receive billions in Federal social and health transfers which total far more than equalization transfer.

If the formula was more lax, so Alberta got some equalization, then so would everyone else.

I guess I don't understand why you are mad.

You'd have to be blind to not see that this is a massive transfer of wealth.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Piece of the equalization pie. We receive billions in Federal social and health transfers which total far more than equalization transfer.

If the formula was more lax, so Alberta got some equalization, then so would everyone else.

I guess I don't understand why you are mad.

Everybody gets the social and health transfers, what's your point?

[01RedDX]

.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


You'd have to be blind to not see that this is a massive transfer of wealth.

How so? Transfer payments are Federal sourced and go towards social programs, education, health, infrastructure. They don't go into someones bank account. The Federal government has an obligation to spend this money. Are you suggesting Alberta should opt out of the 4.5 billion in health transfers we will get this year?

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Gestalt


How so? Transfer payments are Federal sourced and go towards social programs, education, health, infrastructure. They don't go into someones bank account. The Federal government has an obligation to spend this money. Are you suggesting Alberta should opt out of the 4.5 billion in health transfers we will get this year?

Are you saying that given the economic shift of the past 18 months the formula that still makes Alberta a net contributor to the transfer fund program is a fair one?

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by kertejud2


Are you saying that given the economic shift of the past 18 months the formula that still makes Alberta a net contributor to the transfer fund program is a fair one?

You want the rules, and formula re-written in such a way, that only Alberta gets more money?

Seems a little selfish, especially from a province that has been busy telling everyone how much better they were, precisely because they didn't need the equalization transfer.

I guess I just am to proud to put my hand out, begging for change, after I had money rain down on me for a decade.

[suntan]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by suntan
LOL, the most progressive liberal on this forum complaining about wealth transfer.

Suck it up dipshit. You want progressive taxation, this is what happens.

Had we had progressive taxation in Alberta, maybe we wouldn't have our hands out now.

[Buster]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Yes I was, of course there was complaining but like I said, it wasn't nearly this much. Every country has its unique set of fundamental problems and challenges but Canada is still one of the very best. I guess it's more intriguing coming from someone as successful as you, who has a lot less to complain about than the average person. Had your luck been different you could have been living in Bangladesh right now. I am grateful to Canada for all I have and I have a lot less than you.

You're got a fair point...it's easier to complain when you are already amped up about other issues. It's not really a self interest thing, more than an issue with actual fairness. I'm not particularly fond of the idea of arbitrarily moving money from one population to another, especially if the actual underlying reason is cynical appeasement/vote-pandering.

In some ways we are all lucky just to have been born at all, as Richard Dawkins likes to say.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gestalt


How so? Transfer payments are Federal sourced and go towards social programs, education, health, infrastructure. They don't go into someones bank account. The Federal government has an obligation to spend this money. Are you suggesting Alberta should opt out of the 4.5 billion in health transfers we will get this year?

Actually, they do go into someones bank account. The province of quebec has much more generous social programs that are equivalent to cash. Paternity/Maternity leave is much more generous, cheap daycare, etc etc

[roopi]

What was Gestalt's old username?

[kertejud2]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[Tik-Tok]

What's the difference between this year and every other year that has you so upset OP? This has been going on for decades.

Alberta hasn't received equalization payments since the early 60's. Even during the huge bust of the 80's, which was by all accounts worse than the current one, we still never received payments.

Would you rather us have an actual, truly shitty economy and receive payments, rather than what we are currently? We're still doing pretty good, even how things stand.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
What's the difference between this year and every other year that has you so upset OP? This has been going on for decades.

Alberta hasn't received equalization payments since the early 60's. Even during the huge bust of the 80's, which was by all accounts worse than the current one, we still never received payments.

Would you rather us have an actual, truly shitty economy and receive payments, rather than what we are currently? We're still doing pretty good, even how things stand.

Obviously because the socialist NDP has been driving this province further and further into a hole. Kicking us when we are down.

I agree that we need help, real help, but I don't want special rules for us.

Waiting 3 years for the Widlrose to step up, might be too late though

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by suntan
LOL, the most progressive liberal on this forum complaining about wealth transfer.

Suck it up dipshit. You want progressive taxation, this is what happens.

Yeah, no.

The transfer fund system is how wealth is distributed, not collected. You could have the transfer payments set up with whatever taxation you want. You could replace federal income tax with federal property tax and still set it up.

Being the progressive liberal I am, I do greatly care about wealth distribution when the system shows cracks that can be fixed.

[pheoxs]

It uses a 3 year average, so although things are pretty shitty, they were quite good 2-3 years ago which is partly why Alberta is not receiving any payments.

Also every single province (Quebec included) pays into the equalization system and then the funds are dispersed accordingly. I thought it important to mention that because often in conversations a lot of people seem to think that Quebec doesn't pay a cent and just gets free money from everyone else. Quebec contributes 4.5 billion to the program, as does Ontario even more, 6+ billion IIRC.

That being said, the calculation is based on the GDP versus Canada's mean GDP and Alberta's (78k$ - 2015) would have to drop by almost 33% to reach the mean (55k$ - 2015) so even as poorly as our economy has been performing its doubtful things have fallen that far so I doubt we'll ever receive any payments which sucks.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by pheoxs

Also every single province (Quebec included) pays into the equalization system and then the funds are dispersed accordingly. I thought it important to mention that because often in conversations a lot of people seem to think that Quebec doesn't pay a cent and just gets free money from everyone else. Quebec contributes 4.5 billion to the program, as does Ontario even more, 6+ billion IIRC.

All equalization payments are transfer payments, not all transfer payments are equalization. Everybody pays into transfer payments, not everybody gets equalization .

You can be a net contributor or a net receiver of these payments, which is where equalization really comes in to play. So in Alberta's tough economic times, our federal tax dollars are still going to other provinces at a greater rate than they're coming back to the province.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Buster


Actually, they do go into someones bank account. The province of quebec has much more generous social programs that are equivalent to cash. Paternity/Maternity leave is much more generous, cheap daycare, etc etc

Transfer payments pay for federal programs.

The daycare subsidies (along with the other social programs Albertans like to mention) in Quebec come from their provincial budgets.

Shall we start calculating the provincial tax differences between Quebec and Alberta?

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by sputnik


Transfer payments pay for federal programs.

The daycare subsidies (along with the other social programs Albertans like to mention) in Quebec come from their provincial budgets.

Shall we start calculating the provincial tax differences between Quebec and Alberta?

Equalization payments aren't conditional and can be spent on anything the province wishes, unlike the other transfer payments (like the Health transfer).

[Buster]

Originally posted by sputnik


Transfer payments pay for federal programs.

The daycare subsidies (along with the other social programs Albertans like to mention) in Quebec come from their provincial budgets.

Shall we start calculating the provincial tax differences between Quebec and Alberta?

The distinction is specious.

Quebec also does not have to calculate its hydro income (which is high) into the formula. Which is utter nonsense.

They also take Labrador's hydro resources for free.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by roopi
What was Gestalt's old username?
Toma:dunno:

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2

Toma:dunno:

Truth

[mr2mike]

I've seen too many spelling errors in Gestalt's writing for it to be Toma.
Unless Toma is just slowly giving up.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Buster


The distinction is specious.

Quebec also does not have to calculate its hydro income (which is high) into the formula. Which is utter nonsense.

They also take Labrador's hydro resources for free.

Exactly, which is what is sofaking irritating about transfer payments.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by kertejud2


All equalization payments are transfer payments, not all transfer payments are equalization. Everybody pays into transfer payments, not everybody gets equalization .

You can be a net contributor or a net receiver of these payments, which is where equalization really comes in to play. So in Alberta's tough economic times, our federal tax dollars are still going to other provinces at a greater rate than they're coming back to the province.

I understand that, I was just trying to point out some info. I was at lunch and overhead someone talking about this about how Quebec is getting 10 billion $ from Alberta, making it sound like we were entirely paying for the equalization payments that they received which is not the case.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by pheoxs


I understand that, I was just trying to point out some info. I was at lunch and overhead someone talking about this about how Quebec is getting 10 billion $ from Alberta, making it sound like we were entirely paying for the equalization payments that they received which is not the case.

Ahh, I see. That has been a whole other can of worms with the transfer payment debate.

[rage2]

Originally posted by pheoxs
It uses a 3 year average, so although things are pretty shitty, they were quite good 2-3 years ago which is partly why Alberta is not receiving any payments.

Also every single province (Quebec included) pays into the equalization system and then the funds are dispersed accordingly. I thought it important to mention that because often in conversations a lot of people seem to think that Quebec doesn't pay a cent and just gets free money from everyone else. Quebec contributes 4.5 billion to the program, as does Ontario even more, 6+ billion IIRC.

That being said, the calculation is based on the GDP versus Canada's mean GDP and Alberta's (78k$ - 2015) would have to drop by almost 33% to reach the mean (55k$ - 2015) so even as poorly as our economy has been performing its doubtful things have fallen that far so I doubt we'll ever receive any payments which sucks.
IIRC Alberta and Quebec contribute roughly the same amount to the program, while Ontario's contribution is double. It's actually pretty difficult to find the historical contribution per province, if someone can dig that up you can get a clearer picture of distribution by taking equalization minus contribution. Ontario is still a net loss, while Quebec (obviously) is a gain. Looking at just equalization payment numbers is a bit exaggerated, and used by Western provinces to further their agenda.

The historical payment numbers by province are easy to find. They're published here:

https://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

If anyone finds the contribution per province, post it up.

Alberta isn't anywhere close to being a have not province, even during the downturn. We just don't have the population numbers to make things work in our favor. I don't think we could get to a low enough GDP even if we eliminated O&G completely to drop below the national average.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by mr2mike
I've seen too many spelling errors in Gestalt's writing for it to be Toma.
Unless Toma is just slowly giving up.

IMO, Gestalt isn't Toma because Gestalt supports Wildrose while Toma supported NDP.

That said, Gestalt say he supports Wildrose but a lot of his principles matches NDP or PC more. So who knows.

Gestalt is a quagmire.


Originally posted by rage2
https://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp



Well, it does break it down to per capita spending. Ontario/Sask/Alberta/BC are all getting minimum at ~$1400 and Quebec get double at $2700.

So disregard on who pays into it, Quebec get more out of it.

[kenny]

Originally posted by rage2
It's actually pretty difficult to find the historical contribution per province, if someone can dig that up you can get a clearer picture of distribution by taking equalization minus contribution.

It's difficult to find because there is no such thing. There is no "equalization fund" that provinces contribute to. What you'll want to look for is how much federal tax revenue is collected in each province.

[Gman.45]

Alberta + Sask separation. Adios Ottawa. Even just the threat of it happening would change a lot of the Eastern BS - and just wait until this carbon tax stuff starts spooling into larger policies, it'll make the NEP look like a walk in the park. Sask grows more grain x 5 than the largest producing state in the USA. Alberta has the energy sector and many other things going for it. It's completely legal for the Provinces to walk on the Feds/Ottawa. If there was an Alberta separation party that had a chance, that's who I'd vote for next time.

[rage2]

Originally posted by kenny
It's difficult to find because there is no such thing. There is no "equalization fund" that provinces contribute to. What you'll want to look for is how much federal tax revenue is collected in each province.
And with the yearly calculations on how that federal tax revenue is split towards the equalization payments, you would have the "equalization fund" number.

[msommers]

A little dated now, published in Jan 2012

http://www.business.ualberta.ca/Centres/~/media/business/Centres/WCER/Documents/Publications/155ElectronicApril2final.pdf

[btimbit]

If it was based on a 1 or 2 year average rather than 3, would the economy even be bad enough here to receive anything?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by btimbit
If it was based on a 1 or 2 year average rather than 3, would the economy even be bad enough here to receive anything?

No. Like I said a few posts up, AB hasn't gotten any since 1963. Even with the 80's crash, we still earned enough GDP to disqualify us from receiving payments.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by My_name_is_Rob


+1 to this. Lately I haven't felt very patriotic to this country at all. It's hard, since it's basically the east vs the west, and the east has most of the power.

Wonder why. I live in Toronto now; there's more people in this city than in all over Alberta.

MOST of Canada lives in Ontario and Quebec.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by btimbit
If it was based on a 1 or 2 year average rather than 3, would the economy even be bad enough here to receive anything?

Nope its calculated based on GDP per person and although Alberta contracted by 4% in 2015, we are the highest GDP per capita province in Canada. Sask is 2nd.

And for the East vs West thing
http://metrocosm.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/canada-population-line-map.png

[ZenOps]

Good map find.

I always thought we should invade the US and bring the border to just under Oregon.

It just makes sense.

[klumsy_tumbler]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Good map find.

I always thought we should invade the US and bring the border to just under Oregon.

It just makes sense.

Sure.... what could possibly go wrong? This isn't 1814. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Tik-Tok]

That would mean we also get Michigan... no thank you.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gman.45
Alberta + Sask separation. Adios Ottawa. Even just the threat of it happening would change a lot of the Eastern BS - and just wait until this carbon tax stuff starts spooling into larger policies, it'll make the NEP look like a walk in the park. Sask grows more grain x 5 than the largest producing state in the USA. Alberta has the energy sector and many other things going for it. It's completely legal for the Provinces to walk on the Feds/Ottawa. If there was an Alberta separation party that had a chance, that's who I'd vote for next time.

Albertans don't have the balls.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Buster


Albertans don't have the balls.

Exactly. I've been in favour of separation since I could first start voting. We've basically been a net contributor to this country since forever, pulling our weight and then some.

And every time a liberal party gets voted in, they just fuck us around and shit all over us. Hell, even the conservatives don't care that much, mostly lip service (look at the pipeline debacle).

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Gman.45
Alberta + Sask separation. Adios Ottawa. Even just the threat of it happening would change a lot of the Eastern BS - and just wait until this carbon tax stuff starts spooling into larger policies, it'll make the NEP look like a walk in the park. Sask grows more grain x 5 than the largest producing state in the USA. Alberta has the energy sector and many other things going for it. It's completely legal for the Provinces to walk on the Feds/Ottawa. If there was an Alberta separation party that had a chance, that's who I'd vote for next time.

Me too.

What astounds me most, is the spoiled brat of Canada (Quebec), gets a separation referendum, yet we are being bent over, and there's relativity not a peep about separation.

[asp integra]

Just let Quebec separate already! Who needs em!
(I would also be in favour of a AB/SK split)

[adam c]

Originally posted by asp integra
Just let Quebec separate already! Who needs em!
(I would also be in favour of a AB/SK split)

But then where do we get milk and bankrupted airplane builders from?

I'm in support of a separation, there is a movement out there for Alberta, BC, Washington and Oregon, maybe also including Saskatchewan, I can't remember what they are/were calling it

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Me too.

What astounds me most, is the spoiled brat of Canada (Quebec), gets a separation referendum, yet we are being bent over, and there's relativity not a peep about separation.
Because just like the separatists in Quebec, you'd have to be a deluded moron to think things would be better if we were separated.

[rage2]

What's hilarious about our current equalization payments is that it comes from the Constitution Act of 1982:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Act,_1982

Of which if you know your Canadian history, Quebec is against and never approved in the first place. And it's not like we didn't try, with 2 separate accords to try to get them to approve.

One of the few Canadian things I remember from Social Studies haha.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by rage2

Of which if you know your Canadian history, Quebec is against and never approved in the first place. And it's not like we didn't try, with 2 separate accords to try to get them to approve.

One of the few Canadian things I remember from Social Studies haha.

Well, 'we' is a pretty vague term in this case since the Western provinces and Quebec all opposed both accords (for different reasons). It was the federalists in Ontario that desperately tried to get them to ratify it and failed. I'm not sure anybody here is a part of that "we."

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by kertejud2

Because just like the separatists in Quebec, you'd have to be a deluded moron to think things would be better if we were separated.

Uh Huh.

I'm not even sure where to begin with your emotional response.

Let's start with the people that oppose Plutocracy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

[Seth1968]

Further to that, how about a Federal referendum to kick out Quebec?

[Gestalt]

If we separate, would we be a country? How would border and imports and export work, since we are land locked?

What are costs and benefits? The obvious benefit would be Alberta would get to keep what normally is the federal portion of our income tax.

Interesting idea.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gestalt
If we separate, would we be a country? How would border and imports and export work, since we are land locked?

What are costs and benefits? The obvious benefit would be Alberta would get to keep what normally is the federal portion of our income tax.

Interesting idea.

In practical terms, Alberta would simply be shifting its centre of influence from Ottawa to the US. It would be a boom in Alberta the likes of which we have never seen. Equalization and taxation structure are just a piece of the puzzle. Also, given the impracticality of circumventing Alberta and Sask to the north, it would essentially bisect Canada. If BC decided to do something, then Canada would lose access to the Pacific. Even the threat of such a dramatic move would likely move the needle for us. A departure of Alberta and Sask from confederation would be much more costly to Central Canada than a departure of Quebec.

I'm actually not quite certain why the idea is not more mainstream.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Buster


In practical terms, Alberta would simply be shifting its centre of influence from Ottawa to the US. It would be a boom in Alberta the likes of which we have never seen. Equalization and taxation structure are just a piece of the puzzle. Also, given the impracticality of circumventing Alberta and Sask to the north, it would essentially bisect Canada. If BC decided to do something, then Canada would lose access to the Pacific. Even the threat of such a dramatic move would likely move the needle for us. A departure of Alberta and Sask from confederation would be much more costly to Central Canada than a departure of Quebec.

I'm actually not quite certain why the idea is not more mainstream.
Only if your assumption is correct and America takes us on as the 52 states. So then the Federal portion of our taxes would go to the US government? Then who would pay for Healthcare? Would we need us border guards between Alberta and BC?

I dunno man. Sounds iffy. I dont think its mainstream, because no one seems to have presented a structure and explained it to completion. I googled some here, and theres a lot of pie in the sky stuf written by people who apparently dont even know how transfer payments are funded.

The more i think about scenarios that pop in my head, the more ridiculous I think it is. I must be missing something, and Im honestly open to workable ideas.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Uh Huh.

I'm not even sure where to begin with your emotional response.

Let's start with the people that oppose Plutocracy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

Well Alberta and the prairie provinces support the monarchy the most (or at least support abolishing it the least) so you're again living in a dream world.

So you're in the wrong province if you oppose plutocracy. Whether it's a monarch born in England or somebody who lives here.


But my point is more along the lines of: how on earth do you think being a separate country will help us export our oil?

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Buster


In practical terms, Alberta would simply be shifting its centre of influence from Ottawa to the US. It would be a boom in Alberta the likes of which we have never seen. Equalization and taxation structure are just a piece of the puzzle. Also, given the impracticality of circumventing Alberta and Sask to the north, it would essentially bisect Canada. If BC decided to do something, then Canada would lose access to the Pacific. Even the threat of such a dramatic move would likely move the needle for us. A departure of Alberta and Sask from confederation would be much more costly to Central Canada than a departure of Quebec.

I'm actually not quite certain why the idea is not more mainstream.

So what? Alberta and Sask hold Central Canada hostage over access to the Pacific (just like the ever so popular Quebec separatist argument that they'd control the St. Lawrence and hold Central Canada hostage over access to the Atlantic).

BC and Central Canada hold us hostage over access to the Pacific, and Atlantic, and have more infrastructure to negotiate with the US to send and receive stuff south through the US instead (a boom to their shipping industries).



Seriously, you guys are just as deluded as the Quebec separatists, I'm surprised you all don't get along.

[Buster]

Originally posted by kertejud2


So what? Alberta and Sask hold Central Canada hostage over access to the Pacific (just like the ever so popular Quebec separatist argument that they'd control the St. Lawrence and hold Central Canada hostage over access to the Atlantic).

BC and Central Canada hold us hostage over access to the Pacific, and Atlantic, and have more infrastructure to negotiate with the US to send and receive stuff south through the US instead (a boom to their shipping industries).



Seriously, you guys are just as deluded as the Quebec separatists, I'm surprised you all don't get along.

Quebec separatism has been a fabulously successful policy platform for Quebec.

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gestalt

Only if your assumption is correct and America takes us on as the 52 states. So then the Federal portion of our taxes would go to the US government? Then who would pay for Healthcare? Would we need us border guards between Alberta and BC?

I dunno man. Sounds iffy. I dont think its mainstream, because no one seems to have presented a structure and explained it to completion. I googled some here, and theres a lot of pie in the sky stuf written by people who apparently dont even know how transfer payments are funded.

The more i think about scenarios that pop in my head, the more ridiculous I think it is. I must be missing something, and Im honestly open to workable ideas.

It would be challenging, but easily do-able to figure out all of the details you are discussing. At the least, it's not impossible. I think that alberta could probably negotiate either with Canada, or the US, a better deal than we have right now. It's a low bar.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by kertejud2
But my point is more along the lines of: how on earth do you think being a separate country will help us export our oil?

I'm talking about a Western separation from BC to Sask, or possibly Manitoba.

It could become a sovereign nation, or part of another country.

The whole point of it all is pursuing alternatives to get away from the East. They don't give two shits about us. They never have, and never will.

[Antonito]

Does Alberta legally own the oil outright?

[Buster]

Originally posted by Antonito
Does Alberta legally own the oil outright?

alberta owns the resource rights, yes.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Gestalt

Only if your assumption is correct and America takes us on as the 52 states. So then the Federal portion of our taxes would go to the US government? Then who would pay for Healthcare? Would we need us border guards between Alberta and BC?


Um, he was pretty clear; Alberta become its own country (maybe with Sask).

That answers all your questions. No need to have border guards, freedom of movement like with the EU would be easy between BC/AB and SK/MB. Really no need to change it.

Also, there are ways to export products through the US without paying duty if the product is not destined for that country.

[pheoxs]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Um, he was pretty clear; Alberta become its own country (maybe with Sask).

That answers all your questions. No need to have border guards, freedom of movement like with the EU would be easy between BC/AB and SK/MB. Really no need to change it.

Also, there are ways to export products through the US without paying duty if the product is not destined for that country.

I can't see Sask joining us, they have 1/3rd our population which means when it comes down to voting if they come along they get 0 say in what happens more or less so its the same boat for them, theyd be better of staying with Canada.

BC/AB/SK I could see being the best bet, it has a large enough population to sustain itself, Vancouver would likely become the new capital and central hub. Given its airport /ocean access this seems to most likely.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by pheoxs

BC/AB/SK I could see being the best bet, it has a large enough population to sustain itself, Vancouver would likely become the new capital and central hub. Given its airport /ocean access this seems to most likely.

Perfect. With Vancouver as the capital, building those pipelines to the ocean will be a breeze, right?

Right?!

I'd say its more likely Cascadia would be formed rather than BC joining AB and SK. Then we'd really be fucked.

[HiTempguy1]

Fuck that noise, getting away from BC is a 1/4 of the reason for Alberta to separate. :banghead:

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Um, he was pretty clear; Alberta become its own country (maybe with Sask).

That answers all your questions. No need to have border guards, freedom of movement like with the EU would be easy between BC/AB and SK/MB. Really no need to change it.

Also, there are ways to export products through the US without paying duty if the product is not destined for that country.

You're going to sit on billions of dollars of oil, and not have a military force to defend it? From either the USA or the rest of Canada?

Plus, I don't see a referendum passing at all. Most people like being Canadian, not Albertan.

[dubhead]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


You're going to sit on billions of dollars of oil, and not have a military force to defend it? From either the USA or the rest of Canada?

Plus, I don't see a referendum passing at all. Most people like being Canadian, not Albertan.

I think that it's a stretch that Canada would forcefully annex us back and right now it's not a fear of the Canadian military preventing the US from just taking our resources right now.

It does bring up a good line of thinking, even with the ideal BC, Alberta, Sask split we would have to pay for some form of Defense, coast guard, immigration and border service along with I'm sure a huge laundry list of agencies currently taken care of by the Feds.

Say BC didn't want to come I'' sure we could hold the port of Vancouver hostage by blocking access to the rest of Canada hell maybe that's what we should do if they hold us hostage over pipelines. I wonder how long till the port of Van is full if we were to blockade the highways and railways?

[Gestalt]

Are they just going to let us annex the 4% that is federal crown land?

I still don't see how you can be your oen country, witbout control of your borders.

Are we just going to shutdown the military bases?

We need our own federal government then, to collect duties, tarrifs, handle immigration.

Saying lets do this with no plan is like going to walk across the Antarctica with not plan or preparstion.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Are they just going to let us annex the 4% that is federal crown land?

I still don't see how you can be your oen country, witbout control of your borders.

Are we just going to shutdown the military bases?

We need our own federal government then, to collect duties, tarrifs, handle immigration.

Saying lets do this with no plan is like going to walk across the Antarctica with not plan or preparstion.

Again, the approach is complicated, but can be placated by a deal with another country.

Again 2. The West is being sucked dry from the East.

Do you have an alternative solution whilst being sodomized?

[rage2]

Originally posted by Gestalt
I still don't see how you can be your oen country, witbout control of your borders.
We'll build a wall, and make them pay for it!™

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Again, the approach is complicated, but can be placated by a deal with another country.

Again 2. The West is being sucked dry from the East.

Do you have an alternative solution whilst being sodomized?

I dont see it that way. Every working Canadian pays the same federal tax rate.

I cant make myself feel bad about that.

[dirtsniffer]

No they don't. Someone making $150k has a significantly higher tax rate than someone making $60k

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
No they don't. Someone making $150k has a significantly higher tax rate than someone making $60k

We all pay the same rate federally (obviously at the same income level), whether we live in Alberta, Ontario, bc)

As an Albertan, I am not treated unfairly. And whether some other prvonce gets equalization, does not change my quality of life.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by dubhead


I think that it's a stretch that Canada would forcefully annex us back and right now it's not a fear of the Canadian military preventing the US from just taking our resources right now.

It does bring up a good line of thinking, even with the ideal BC, Alberta, Sask split we would have to pay for some form of Defense, coast guard, immigration and border service along with I'm sure a huge laundry list of agencies currently taken care of by the Feds.

Say BC didn't want to come I'' sure we could hold the port of Vancouver hostage by blocking access to the rest of Canada hell maybe that's what we should do if they hold us hostage over pipelines. I wonder how long till the port of Van is full if we were to blockade the highways and railways?

A blockade is definitely an act of war, and one that wouldn't be supported by Canada, the USA, or the rest of the world. An independent Alberta would be put in it's place rather quickly.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


You're going to sit on billions of dollars of oil, and not have a military force to defend it? From either the USA or the rest of Canada?

Plus, I don't see a referendum passing at all. Most people like being Canadian, not Albertan. [/QUOTE

What? Why would you do that? Why the fuck are you guys making up all these ridiculous "what-ifs"? Like the US or Canada would invade a 1st world.sovereign country for their resources :nuts:


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gestalt
Are they just going to let us annex the 4% that is federal crown land?

I still don't see how you can be your oen country, witbout control of your borders.

Are we just going to shutdown the military bases?

We need our own federal government then, to collect duties, tarrifs, handle immigration.

Saying lets do this with no plan is like going to walk across the Antarctica with not plan or preparstion.

Um, Alberta would just take care of this stuff? Do you people not understand we are already taxed to pay for this shit? Jesus fuck, are we in remedial studies? Who said "lets do this with no plan"? Nobody. But a good start is Alberta would take over the responsibilities the fed currently runs because duh, who else would and why would you think you wouldn't need those resources and styles of organizations in a seperate country?

Ffs :banghead:

As for being "Canadian", sure , lots of people feel like that. But quite a few are realizing Albertans aren't that "Canadian" as the other 4/5ths of Canada are.

[Gestalt]

We are all Canadian, way more thsn we are Albertan. I dont know anyone In my life as hard done by as some posting here.

not likee any part of equalization would go directly to my pocket.

[dubhead]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD


A blockade is definitely an act of war, and one that wouldn't be supported by Canada, the USA, or the rest of the world. An independent Alberta would be put in it's place rather quickly.

I had no idea it's an act of way for an independent country to decide what is allowed to cross it's borders. Seems like that BC's access to Canada would have to come with Alberta's access to the coast should Alberta ever want it's independence.


Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Um, Alberta would just take care of this stuff? Do you people not understand we are already taxed to pay for this shit? Jesus fuck, are we in remedial studies? Who said "lets do this with no plan"? Nobody. But a good start is Alberta would take over the responsibilities the fed currently runs because duh, who else would and why would you think you wouldn't need those resources and styles of organizations in a seperate country?

Ffs :banghead:

As for being "Canadian", sure , lots of people feel like that. But quite a few are realizing Albertans aren't that "Canadian" as the other 4/5ths of Canada are.

Of course we would take care that of all of this stuff the major problem I would think Is funding all of these departments with a fraction of the population.

[Gestalt]

It might be a good idea. Realistically, looks like Alberta tax payers pay about $20 billion a year to Ottawa mor than we get back in Transfer payments.

Even of you deduct old age security, military spending, parks, Environment etc, we could still have 10 billion left over.

That should be more than enough to take care of the add on stuff we would need as a country and have money to spare, so it could result in slightly lower taxes, or improved service.

Do we get our own money supply?

[dubhead]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Do we get our own money supply?

We could kick out the international banking cartel's and control our own currency like Iceland I suppose. What to call it though? Ralph Bucks in honour of the late great premier?

[googe]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Exactly. I've been in favour of separation since I could first start voting. We've basically been a net contributor to this country since forever, pulling our weight and then some.


What about all of the newfies going to Alberta and working on the rigs? The oil companies sure seem to appreciate drawing on the rest of Canada's labor resources when it benefits them. It's not that they aren't pulling their weight simply because you were born a little closer to the natural resource.

Better yet, Fort Mac/Wood Buffalo should just separate from Alberta and Canada. They can hold the entire Alberta economy hostage. Everyone there could live like Bahrain royalty if they didn't have to support the rest of the province.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by googe


What about all of the newfies going to Alberta and working on the rigs? The oil companies sure seem to appreciate drawing on the rest of Canada's labor resources when it benefits them. It's not that they aren't pulling their weight simply because you were born a little closer to the natural resource.

Better yet, Fort Mac/Wood Buffalo should just separate from Alberta and Canada. They can hold the entire Alberta economy hostage. Everyone there could live like Bahrain royalty if they didn't have to support the rest of the province.

So... Your argument comes down to "what is fair"? Thats what you are saying?

:rofl:

What a liberal mentality lol.

Fuck what is fair. The system hasn't been "fair" to Alberta ever.

As for your last bit, maybe think before spewing forth on the keyboard. Alberta seperation is hard/unlikely. Multiply that by about 1000 for a portion of a province. You just look dumb making that suggestion. :thumbsup:

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by Gestalt


We all pay the same rate federally (obviously at the same income level), whether we live in Alberta, Ontario, bc)

As an Albertan, I am not treated unfairly. And whether some other prvonce gets equalization, does not change my quality of life.

Are you really that incapable of doing simple common sense math.

Absolutely it would affect your quality of life...more public projects could be completed with ease.

New LRT? Done.
Finished Ring Road? Done.

There is hundreds of other projects that would easily be funded if we didn't have to pay equalization. To think that none of these would affect your quality of life is so naive.