Minimum service to maintain warranty?

[Mitsu3000gt]

My GF booked an oil change for her 2015 Honda (around 15,000 km) and they want to charge her $170+ (on top of the oil change) for additional inspections, tire rotation (totally unnecessary), fluid top ups, etc.

Can anyone tell me what the best way to find out what the minimum level of 'service' required is in order to maintain warranty? I do not trust the dealership with that answer and if we can avoid paying for 'checks' and things that have already been done (like tire rotations), that would be ideal.

I have the maintenance schedule from Honda, but it doesn't mention what the minimum required for warranty validity is.

I'm pretty sure it's this service B/B1 which the majority of is likely unnecessary or already completed:

Inspect fuel lines and connections.
Replace engine oil* and oil filter.
Rotate tires**, inspect for wear and adjust pressure.
Service front and rear brakes.
Inspect parking brake adjustments.
Inspect tie rod ends, steering gear box and boots.
Inspect suspension components.
Inspect driveshaft boots.
Inspect brake hoses and lines (including ABS/VSA).
Check all fluid levels, condition of fluids and check for leaks.
Inspect exhaust system.

Or are you forced to follow the schedule to a T in order to maintain warranty? Or can you opt out of at least some of it? TIA.

[Xtrema]

A detailed Warranty and Maintenance Guide accompanies every Honda we sell. It provides details on the extensive warranty coverage offered with every Honda vehicle. It will also explain owner's rights and responsibilities in regards to warranty coverage.

As far as I know, having dealership doing all those "unnecessary" work is basically having less hassle in proving you did them elsewhere when the warranty claim arise.

You shouldn't have to service with dealer to get warranty.

[94boosted]

Excellent question, I've wondered this myself. Sub'd

[nismodrifter]

my Infiniti EX37 has power train until 2019.

I asked the same question when I purchased the vehicle.

I got a straight forward answer, do oil changes at the recommended intervals (must be done at a shop for proper documentation). Thats it.

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by nismodrifter
my Infiniti EX37 has power train until 2019.

I asked the same question when I purchased the vehicle.

I got a straight forward answer, do oil changes at the recommended intervals (must be done at a shop for proper documentation). Thats it.

This

Correct oil weight and correct interval for all fluid changes as recommended in your owners manual. It doesn't have to be done at the dealership.

Anything beyond that and it's just a money grab.

And if they tell you that your warranty will be void of you don't do their recommended services, then they are flat out lying and bullying you.

[heavyD]

Subaru Calgary is the worst for this kind of stuff. They wanted to charge me $800 for their 60 km service (wife's 2014 Outback) and a lot of it didn't even follow Subaru's recommendations with stuff like a fuel injector flush, changing out the PVC valve, a variety of checks that can be done by any owner for free etc. Also involved was $136 to replace the air filter and cabin filter which I also scoffed at. I just got the oil change and brake flush done as per Subaru's 60 km schedule and did the filters myself for $50. I have to assume some people are getting this done because otherwise they wouldn't do it but I can't believe people are willing to spend this kind of money on routine maintenance.

Bottom line is that as long as you are changing the fluids and filters according to the maintenance schedule you are good to go. The rest of it is dealers lining their pockets.

[mzdspd]

Originally posted by heavyD

Bottom line is that as long as you are changing the fluids and filters according to the maintenance schedule you are good to go. The rest of it is dealers lining their pockets.

This is the grey area though.. The dealer and the manufacturer use different schedules.

Dealers sell fluid changes at "x amount of km" but the manufacturers recommend them at "y amount of km" and the dealer will tell you that it is required for your warranty. Usually the dealer recommended services are half of the kilometers vs what the manufacturer recommends.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


This

Correct oil weight and correct interval for all fluid changes as recommended in your owners manual. It doesn't have to be done at the dealership.

Anything beyond that and it's just a money grab.

And if they tell you that your warranty will be void of you don't do their recommended services, then they are flat out lying and bullying you.

Good info - thanks.

Sounds like all we need to do is the oil change, because other fluids I am sure don't need to be changed yet (like transmission, brake, etc.) I think the power steering is electric.

You never know I guess, but I am 99% sure I don't need to pay them to inspect all those other things on a 1-year-old car. And the likelihood of things going wrong on a car like this is extremely low to begin with.

Does the Tune Dub equivalent of a Honda guy exist in Calgary? I.e. 100% honest, highly regarded, well priced service that is better than the dealer?

I found this (2015 Fit LX) but it just lists the procedures, not the KM at which they need to be done:

https://www.honda.ca/owners/honda-services/maintenance-calculator

[r3ccOs]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


This

Correct oil weight and correct interval for all fluid changes as recommended in your owners manual. It doesn't have to be done at the dealership.

Anything beyond that and it's just a money grab.

And if they tell you that your warranty will be void of you don't do their recommended services, then they are flat out lying and bullying you.

I don't mind paying for the "extra" as I've had a number of TSBs and other items handled, as well as precursor items as I'm a preventive kinda guy

that said, yes obviously when your typical "lube store" tells you at 30,000k you need new transmission and differential oil, you can tell them to pound sand

When I owned a Nissan, I ended up with cam phaser issues early and while under warranty on my VQ35DE and was denied warranty as I thought I could just change my own oil...

I always used mobile or a high quality synthetic with a WIX filter and always changed the drain plug and even had receipts, but being that I'm not an SAE mechanic, they said that they couldn't verify my interval statements and flat out refused warranty work for me.

I was later informed that I should have had them rip apart the engine with a condition that should the signs have shown "abuse" i.e. sludging then I would be on the hook for the repairs.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I found this (2015 Fit LX) but it just lists the procedures, not the KM at which they need to be done:

https://www.honda.ca/owners/honda-services/maintenance-calculator

For Honda, time and mileage doesn't matter any more.

Just do whatever your maintenance reminder the car tells you to do and that's it.

There is A/B and 1-5. A1 usually means just a oil change. B5 could be something else and cost more $. At least that's how I remember them 10 years ago.

[infected]

Originally posted by mzdspd


This is the grey area though.. The dealer and the manufacturer use different schedules.

Dealers sell fluid changes at "x amount of km" but the manufacturers recommend them at "y amount of km" and the dealer will tell you that it is required for your warranty. Usually the dealer recommended services are half of the kilometers vs what the manufacturer recommends.

Wouldn't we still follow the manufacturer's recommendation of Y instead of the dealer's X, as the manufacturer built the vehicle, not the dealer?

[max_boost]

I'll bring it to the dealer for major service work and hit up the independent shops for the oil changes. So I still make an appearance at the dealer but just not at every interval.

[Tenkara Way]

I have a Honda, bought brand new from a Honda dealer. I too went through the "inspection" dances until I asked if they were required by Honda Canada? I was told no, BUT it was advised by the dealership. I do all the oil changes and fluid changes by the book on or before they are due. Have all done at a local Honda garage like Hu in Calgary or at Okotoks Honda as they are good on price shockingly often and have great bookings (time) over Hu as they have more bays.

Honda Canada is the only opinion I care about, the dealer can pound sand.

220,000 km and all I've replaced: headlight bulbs (1x/18 months high-end aftermarket bulbs), rear brake bulbs 1x, battery 1x, brakes (front rotors 1x, pads a few times, oxygen sensor 1x, various air filters and oil/fluid changes as required, windshield 1x, tire sets 3 summer/2 winter.

It's a Honda, boringly bullet-proof for the most part.

[Jeeper1986]

on my 2015 jeep rubicon they top off every thing when they do my oil change and inspect everything while they are at it too.

The last two times I went there the first time they told me that my rear diff oil should be changed as recommended I told them to leave it at $170+ the 2d time they told me it has to be done or it will effect warranty, I told them to leave it as is and ill change it my self. I bought all the oil from the dealer just incase they say oh you refused it before.

And to boot the tech was nice enough to print out all the papers on how to change the diff oil lol

[ShermanEF9]

Look in your manual. as long as you follow the schedule in there, you cannot be denied warranty.

Dealer once wanted me to pay for them to "take my brakes apart, clean them, and put them back on." for $300. guess what i told them.

[dirtsniffer]

Shaw gmc has called me 3 times to tell me "I'm due" for a brake service. Which is basically just a clean and lube. It's not in the manual. The truck has 25000 km. Between that and them trying to sell me an alignment every time im there it's a real annoyance.

[ZeroGravity]

the two dealerships I've dealt with, they say to keep their "free" oil changes offer, I need to do their / dealership's recommended services.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by ZeroGravity
the two dealerships I've dealt with, they say to keep their "free" oil changes offer, I need to do their / dealership's recommended services. :werd: T&T/Calgary Honda love to push that little "bonus." My work around is I pay them to change the oil and replace my own cabin filters etc (save receipts/take pics.) You'd have to be nuts to service your brakes and replace filters as often as the dealer expects.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by ZeroGravity
the two dealerships I've dealt with, they say to keep their "free" oil changes offer, I need to do their / dealership's recommended services.

This is what worries me. I specifically negotiated free lifetime synthetic oil changes when we bought it, and there was no mention of a requirement for service as well. However, I think it is what they expect. Not sure how that is going to go over, but if it's not in writing I will probably lose. The free oil changes are absolutely pointless when they cost you $170+ in other stuff.

[revelations]

Looks like you guys are discovering where the dealers make their money now ..... :nut:

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by revelations
Looks like you guys are discovering where the dealers make their money now ..... :nut:

Oh I'm well aware where they make money haha - that is the entire reason I made the thread, specifically to make sure they get as little of it as possible without compromising vehicle warranty, safety, etc.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


This is what worries me. I specifically negotiated free lifetime synthetic oil changes when we bought it, and there was no mention of a requirement for service as well. However, I think it is what they expect. Not sure how that is going to go over, but if it's not in writing I will probably lose. The free oil changes are absolutely pointless when they cost you $170+ in other stuff.

Every Honda and Toyota dealer I've ever dealt with throw in the "free oil for life" as long as you fully service the car there. So I'm guessing they will insist you do the rest when you take it in.

[TurboMedic]

I did my oil changes for my Jeep at the dealer, mostly because there was no $$ advantage to me doing it on my own for the oil and filters for the ecodiesel. When they changed to t6 and had aftermarket filters I did my own, kept receipts, wrote dates and mileage on them.

I had the same experience with diff oil and transfer case. Dealership said it needed to be done at 35000km, but the manual says its essentially "permanent" and could be changed at 200,000km (for the t-case), and diff oi was 60,000km. same shit, dealer said "its required" and all that but just printed off the supplements from Jeep and kept them with my documentation. Did my own diff oils with royal purple, peeled the label, stuck it to the receipt, wrote the milage, and amounts in and out, which I think its more than sufficient to satisfy claims.

Now, as for oil weights, I'm a bit less clear on it. One hand thinks that you should follow them, but in my experience again with the jeep, they changed the spec and re-released the maintenance supplements after a couple years of ownership. I've run Rotella t6 in every vehicle I've had for nearly a decade, and thats what Jeep changed to. It runs in my VW, it ran in my motorcycles, hell even my lawnmower and pressure washer and generator all use it now. I'd like to use it in my new EB F150 as well, but 5/40 vs 5/30.......

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by Aleks
Every Honda and Toyota dealer I've ever dealt with throw in the "free oil for life" as long as you fully service the car there. So I'm guessing they will insist you do the rest when you take it in. I'll spend the $40 for them to change the oil, they can keep those "free changes" lol :D But man, they sure like to lay on the guilt trip when you decline a B (BS) Service :rofl:

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by TurboMedic
I'd like to use it in my new EB F150 as well, but 5/40 vs 5/30.......

From an engineered point of view, use what the engine calls for, Certain weights are chosen to provide the correct bearing clearance or journals and cams. the oil pressure reduction pills, and passages also take into account oil viscosity.

But from a consumer point of view, if you want to run an oil that is greater viscosity than what is called for, you can do it, but you will need to make sure that its a full synthetic.

Synthetic oil is designed to shear viscosity, and return to its regular weight depending on pressures, and temps.

Thinking about it using T6 on your EB F150s only benefit would be the extra detergents in the oil that would keep the phasers clean, as this is the major point of failure in almost all ford engines with variable cam phasers.
The turbos would be happy, and so long as you use a block heater when it hits -30 and below, your heads will be fine too.

One of the bigger faults in using a heavier weight oil in a Ford is the aeration that the oil pump would create from the higher pressure.
The bypass valve would almost certainly be open until the engine is warmed up significantly.

But I think the T6 would do just fine, being that part of its properties is that its a great anti foaming oil.

I think you'll be just fine running it.

[revelations]

The T6 0W40 has to be the ultimate winter oil. Like Turbomedic I've used T6 in pretty much everything (bikes, small engines, cars, trucks) for about a decade.

[bigbadboss101]

That's what the salesmen told me. They make $ on services, not so much on the sales. As for Honda shops, people tend to like Balance Auto, Hu's and couple other ones. I have used Hu's and like him. Might try Balance Auto for next just to see how they are.

[Hallowed_point]

^ Agree. I think that they make pretty good coin off trade in's as well.

[RLK]

Originally posted by TurboMedic
I did my oil changes for my Jeep at the dealer, mostly because there was no $$ advantage to me doing it on my own for the oil and filters for the ecodiesel. When they changed to t6 and had aftermarket filters I did my own, kept receipts, wrote dates and mileage on them.

I had the same experience with diff oil and transfer case. Dealership said it needed to be done at 35000km, but the manual says its essentially "permanent" and could be changed at 200,000km (for the t-case), and diff oi was 60,000km. same shit, dealer said "its required" and all that but just printed off the supplements from Jeep and kept them with my documentation. Did my own diff oils with royal purple, peeled the label, stuck it to the receipt, wrote the milage, and amounts in and out, which I think its more than sufficient to satisfy claims.

Now, as for oil weights, I'm a bit less clear on it. One hand thinks that you should follow them, but in my experience again with the jeep, they changed the spec and re-released the maintenance supplements after a couple years of ownership. I've run Rotella t6 in every vehicle I've had for nearly a decade, and thats what Jeep changed to. It runs in my VW, it ran in my motorcycles, hell even my lawnmower and pressure washer and generator all use it now. I'd like to use it in my new EB F150 as well, but 5/40 vs 5/30.......

Rotella t6 will damage your ecoboost. Improper oil usage takes like 100 000km to show up, usually with rounded off cam lobs or oil consumption problems and stretched timing chains. There is a lot more to oil than just weight. You ecoboost requires oil meeting ford spec WSS-M2C946-A. That is a low dynamic viscosity oil, designed for gasoline engines. T6 is a high dynamic diesel oil. Both of those oils are totally different. Your ecoboost was designed for a quick flowing fuel economy oil, not a thick high pressure oil. The last ecoboost I replaced was $11 000.
Oil technology has come a long way over the last few years, long gone are the days of dumping 10w-30 in everything. Every engine is designed for a specific oil, and that spec is published in your owners manual.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner

Synthetic oil is designed to shear viscosity, and return to its regular weight depending on pressures, and temps.

Thinking about it using T6 on your EB F150s only benefit would be the extra detergents in the oil that would keep the phasers clean, as this is the major point of failure in almost all ford engines with variable cam phasers.
The turbos would be happy, and so long as you use a block heater when it hits -30 and below, your heads will be fine too.

One of the bigger faults in using a heavier weight oil in a Ford is the aeration that the oil pump would create from the higher pressure.
The bypass valve would almost certainly be open until the engine is warmed up significantly.

But I think the T6 would do just fine, being that part of its properties is that its a great anti foaming oil.

I think you'll be just fine running it.

At -30 the viscosity should essentially be the same as any other 5w oil, no? Isn't that the point of the weight ratings? And $$ is a nice factor, I get it bulk because of versatility



Originally posted by RLK


Rotella t6 will damage your ecoboost. Improper oil usage takes like 100 000km to show up, usually with rounded off cam lobs or oil consumption problems and stretched timing chains. There is a lot more to oil than just weight. You ecoboost requires oil meeting ford spec WSS-M2C946-A. That is a low dynamic viscosity oil, designed for gasoline engines. T6 is a high dynamic diesel oil. Both of those oils are totally different. Your ecoboost was designed for a quick flowing fuel economy oil, not a thick high pressure oil. The last ecoboost I replaced was $11 000.
Oil technology has come a long way over the last few years, long gone are the days of dumping 10w-30 in everything. Every engine is designed for a specific oil, and that spec is published in your owners manual.

I get that, but WSS-M2C946-A isn't a terribly impressive spec at all, even plain dino castrol GTX meets that (and even the manual says synthetic is optional!).....My last vehicle that had "quick flowing fuel economy oil" that cost $18/L and a 5w30 weight rating which mysteriously got pulled to the point of the manufacturer draining it out of all of the unsolds on the lots and replacing with 5w40 T6, granted that was a diesel as well and there's no dispute that t6 is a diesel oil that conforms to many other specs. You make good points, but its overshadowed by your doom and gloom!
:thumbsup:

[RLK]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


At -30 the viscosity should essentially be the same as any other 5w oil, no? Isn't that the point of the weight ratings? And $$ is a nice factor, I get it bulk because of versatility




I get that, but WSS-M2C946-A isn't a terribly impressive spec at all, even plain dino castrol GTX meets that (and even the manual says synthetic is optional!).....My last vehicle that had "quick flowing fuel economy oil" that cost $18/L and a 5w30 weight rating which mysteriously got pulled to the point of the manufacturer draining it out of all of the unsolds on the lots and replacing with 5w40 T6, granted that was a diesel as well and there's no dispute that t6 is a diesel oil that conforms to many other specs. You make good points, but its overshadowed by your doom and gloom!
:thumbsup:
If you read on the back of the GTX bottle it will say recommend for Ford spec xxxx. That means that Castrol says that's it's good enough, not Ford them selfs. The proper oils will have approved for xxx spec.

Dealer's are some of the worst offenders for universal fluids and bulk garbage oil. If you want to take it as doom and gloom, that's fine, I see destroyed vehicles from incorrect fluids on a very regular basis.

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


At -30 the viscosity should essentially be the same as any other 5w oil, no? Isn't that the point of the weight ratings? And $$ is a nice factor, I get it bulk because of versatility




I get that, but WSS-M2C946-A isn't a terribly impressive spec at all, even plain dino castrol GTX meets that (and even the manual says synthetic is optional!).....My last vehicle that had "quick flowing fuel economy oil" that cost $18/L and a 5w30 weight rating which mysteriously got pulled to the point of the manufacturer draining it out of all of the unsolds on the lots and replacing with 5w40 T6, granted that was a diesel as well and there's no dispute that t6 is a diesel oil that conforms to many other specs. You make good points, but its overshadowed by your doom and gloom!
:thumbsup:

5w** oil stops pouring at about -35c at -30 is starting get pretty molasses like so a block heater is just extra insurance. Odd fact is the "w" stands for Winter

For the record flat cam lobes on an ecoboost due to incorrect oil wear is some what impossible as the hydraulic cam lifters all have rollers. It would take you running canola oil through the engine to get the rollers to seize and start to score the cams

Manufacture oil designations are there as legal measure, but almost all oil available at your local parts store meets and exceedes those requirements
GM had a class action against them for their Dexos branded oil, as it's nothing much more than a semisynthetic oil.
This is why I say it needs to be full synthetic, because the lubricating standards of full synthetic oils easily exceeded manufacturer specs.

[RLK]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


Manufacture oil designations are there as legal measure, but almost all oil available at your local parts store meets and exceedes those requirements
GM had a class action against them for their Dexos branded oil, as it's nothing much more than a semisynthetic oil.
This is why I say it needs to be full synthetic, because the lubricating standards of full synthetic oils easily exceeded manufacturer specs.
This is flat out incorrect. Oil specs are not their so manufacturers don't get sued. Good god.

The needle bearings on the rollers fail and round off the cam. Eco boosts have one big ass timing chain that likes to stretch.

[RickDaTuner]

Yeah no it's there for legal reasons, I've heard it straight from Ford engineers, of whome I used to work very closely with.

Chain stretch is due to constantly Heavy footing it off the line.

Roller bearing failure is due to oil breakdown from not replacing the oil at the correct intervals, Causing total break down of its lubricating properties.

You have to remember these are everyday consumer vehicles, not exotic sports cars with precious metal coatings on internal components.

[RLK]

Well what ever floats your boat I guess

[revelations]

Originally posted by RLK

This is flat out incorrect. Oil specs are not their so manufacturers don't get sued. Good god.




Originally posted by RickDaTuner
Yeah no it's there for legal reasons, I've heard it straight from Ford engineers, of whome I used to work very closely with.


My understanding is limited, but from what Ive found is that the specs are there for legal reasons as well as others - including standardization.

[RickDaTuner]

Yup there is a minimum standard for all engine oils sold in North America, I can't remember the governing body but I'm going to say it's SAE.

Beyond that it's just marketing ploys for additives and conditioners.

[schurchill39]

Originally posted by ShermanEF9
Look in your manual. as long as you follow the schedule in there, you cannot be denied warranty.

Dealer once wanted me to pay for them to "take my brakes apart, clean them, and put them back on." for $300. guess what i told them.

My wife got hosed on this one on her Acura. She came home in tears that her oil change cost her ~$460 because of some extra stuff they did. When I looked at the receipt just shy of $300 was for cleaning the brakes.

When the service line manager refused to take my calls I paid the dealership manager a visit and we got it sorted really quick. We ended up with a $450 credit as well as the next service for free. Needless to say I take care of all of the trips to the dealership now because I cant trust those scum bags to be honest with someone who doesn't know any better.


EDIT: Buy your fluids and filter from the stealerships and mark it in your manual at the intervals you're performing the routine maintenance and you're good.

[Hallowed_point]

Always enjoy your contributions RickDaTuner..valuable insight for us internet mechanics :D

[RickDaTuner]

Glad I can pass some information and insight along

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


5w** oil stops pouring at about -35c at -30 is starting get pretty molasses like so a block heater is just extra insurance. Odd fact is the "w" stands for Winter

For the record flat cam lobes on an ecoboost due to incorrect oil wear is some what impossible as the hydraulic cam lifters all have rollers. It would take you running canola oil through the engine to get the rollers to seize and start to score the cams

Manufacture oil designations are there as legal measure, but almost all oil available at your local parts store meets and exceedes those requirements
GM had a class action against them for their Dexos branded oil, as it's nothing much more than a semisynthetic oil.
This is why I say it needs to be full synthetic, because the lubricating standards of full synthetic oils easily exceeded manufacturer specs.

I haven't used anything except full synthetic since probably my 1997 Grand Am, I wouldn't even consider buying a blend, hence my somewhat skeptic approach to RLK...I'm not arguing to put walmart house brand in vs. mobil 1 here, I'm talking respected and proven oils. I'll be buying ecobox's of Pennzoil platinum from costco for a bit more $$ than before anyhow...can still run it in anything except for bikes but don't have those any longer!


Originally posted by RLK

This is flat out incorrect. Oil specs are not their so manufacturers don't get sued. Good god.

The needle bearings on the rollers fail and round off the cam. Eco boosts have one big ass timing chain that likes to stretch.

I own a 2017, 2nd gen 3.5. Chain issue was addressed in the redesign of this engine...Plus, I fail to see how oil viscosity (barring the extremes, ie: 15w in -60 temps resulting in lots of mechanical drag) would stretch the timing chains, especially when the weight difference of the oils is the hot side viscosity on a turbocharged engine...

Can we at least agree that I'm questioning whether 5w40 T6 synthetic is at least equivalent if not better in lubricating properties than many of the spec oils (of which can be dino oil)? Or is your hate of rotella going to insist that the motorcraft blend is a better all around oil?

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


I haven't used anything except full synthetic since probably my 1997 Grand Am, I wouldn't even consider buying a blend, hence my somewhat skeptic approach to RLK...I'm not arguing to put walmart house brand in vs. mobil 1 here, I'm talking respected and proven oils. I'll be buying ecobox's of Pennzoil platinum from costco for a bit more $$ than before anyhow...can still run it in anything except for bikes but don't have those any longer!



No rebuttal from me, I was always posting under the assumption you'd be using a quality synthetic oil.

On a whole nother discussion though, being that it was mentioned Mobil1 vs Walmart brand may as well be the same thing, as each just bearly meets the minimum requirements for automotive engine oil; Walmart for being an oil, and Mobil 1 for being called a synthetic(30% ester content).

Happy motoring.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


No rebuttal from me, I was always posting under the assumption you'd be using a quality synthetic oil.

On a whole nother discussion though, being that it was mentioned Mobil1 vs Walmart brand may as well be the same thing, as each just bearly meets the minimum requirements for automotive engine oil; Walmart for being an oil, and Mobil 1 for being called a synthetic(30% ester content).

Happy motoring.

Ha, ok bad choice of comparison! I was never a mobil 1 fan, but was also unaware of that

[spikerS]

Originally posted by TurboMedic
I'll be buying ecobox's of Pennzoil platinum from costco for a bit more $$ than before anyhow

I did my first oil change at a fast lube shop and used Penzoil platinum synthetic. I am going back to Mobil1 for my next change.

I am getting a lot less life out of it versus the mobil1, and I am not sure if it just my imagination, but I seem to notice a loss of power since the last oil change too.

[RLK]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


I haven't used anything except full synthetic since probably my 1997 Grand Am, I wouldn't even consider buying a blend, hence my somewhat skeptic approach to RLK...I'm not arguing to put walmart house brand in vs. mobil 1 here, I'm talking respected and proven oils. I'll be buying ecobox's of Pennzoil platinum from costco for a bit more $$ than before anyhow...can still run it in anything except for bikes but don't have those any longer!



I own a 2017, 2nd gen 3.5. Chain issue was addressed in the redesign of this engine...Plus, I fail to see how oil viscosity (barring the extremes, ie: 15w in -60 temps resulting in lots of mechanical drag) would stretch the timing chains, especially when the weight difference of the oils is the hot side viscosity on a turbocharged engine...

Can we at least agree that I'm questioning whether 5w40 T6 synthetic is at least equivalent if not better in lubricating properties than many of the spec oils (of which can be dino oil)? Or is your hate of rotella going to insist that the motorcraft blend is a better all around oil?
I don't have a hate on for t6 at all, it's just the wrong oil for your ecoboost. You cannot compare motorcraft 5w30 to rotella t6 because they are totally different oils.
Rick is extremely ignorant on how oils are formulated and built. I'm not going to argue because I will never win, he knows too much.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by RLK

Rick is extremely ignorant on how oils are formulated and built. I'm not going to argue because I will never win, he knows too much.

:dunno: It's like people don't get that fluid selection is actually quite precise and delicate. We often deal with customers who select their own fluids list that when submitted to our vendor we get a call back from the vendor informing us the selected fluids are non compatible. Quite amusing frankly since some of these customers will try to tell us no it's really OK. I trust our vendors and their corresponding engineers to be able to tell me when our customers picked the wrong stuff because it's not my primary field of work so I don't try to do their job...

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by RLK

Rick is extremely ignorant on how oils are formulated and built. I'm not going to argue because I will never win, he knows too much.

Your points on oil formulation are accurate but are misplaced in mass produced vehicles.

Manufacturers build engines to last through a variety of different engine oil types.
They've been through this game, have been sued and know the outcome of demanding only one type of oil in their vehicles..
Modern engines are built with enough tolerance to accept the bare minimum from lubricating oils.

The only exception is Automatic transmission fluids.

I don't know everything, I actually wish I knew far more related to automobiles, and have many technicians I seek for advice and continually learn from. Every technician who I have ever trained or worked along side of has had something to teach me.

This discussion isn't about being right, because much like you I could throw tons of technicals specifications of oil out but it would just fall on deaf ears.
You going on further to say a certain oil will destroy your engine is a bit over the top. Carbon stuffed rings is a thing of the past, and was more of a GM 5.3 thing, or cars prior to that. Oils have come along way since then, and so has piston ring material, and design
There are indeed faults related to improper lubrication use, under extenuating circumstances. But as mentioned there is a standard for engine oils that all manufacturers meet.
You also have to take into account the other side of things where there have been vehicles which I have services since new using OEM fluid, which have major engine damage,and could easily be attributed to incorrect oil use.

When I was a younger technician I was a purist to the trade, attempting to do everything as scientific and to the letter as possible, but years of dealing with internal engine faults with the support of engineers it's clear barring design flaws, or incorrect tollerances, most of if not all engine faults are due to customer abuse.

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


:dunno: It's like people don't get that fluid selection is actually quite precise and delicate. We often deal with customers who select their own fluids list that when submitted to our vendor we get a call back from the vendor informing us the selected fluids are non compatible. Quite amusing frankly since some of these customers will try to tell us no it's really OK. I trust our vendors and their corresponding engineers to be able to tell me when our customers picked the wrong stuff because it's not my primary field of work so I don't try to do their job...

That sounds more like a 3rd party manufacturerong issue that hasn't been addressed.

[RLK]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


Your points on oil formulation are accurate but are misplaced in mass produced vehicles.

Manufacturers build engines to last through a variety of different engine oil types.
They've been through this game, have been sued and know the outcome of demanding only one type of oil in their vehicles..
Modern engines are built with enough tolerance to accept the bare minimum from lubricating oils.


I'm assuming that you come from the dealer world yes? I work in the aftermarket were most of the vehicles that I see have 2 to 500 000km on them, so not new.

I see lots of damage from improper fluid use because the vehicles that I work on are older with more km than what you usually see in the dealer.
Some vehicle manufactures don't give a shit what type of oil goes in their engines and other really do. Look at euro's. My biggest point is you cannot look at oils with a one size fits all mentality, that is why I follow the manufacture specs so I am not liable for fucking up some ones car because of my ignorance.

For the last ten years or so of my career, I mostly do diagnostics and programming. So I have to remain a purist or I can brick very expensive modules.

[RickDaTuner]

My work history has been a mixed bag from jalopies to Ferraris, and everything in between.

I commend you for taking on the older stuff, its not everyone's cup of tea to learn the various wiring schematics, and system quirks of all the manufactures.


:thumbsup:

[Mitsu3000gt]

So Okotoks Honda told my GF that if she doesn't do the "B" service it "could" void her warranty if something happens in the future and they see that she declined this service. What do you guys think? BS?

[RickDaTuner]

Total BS, just a scare tactic

[Mitsu3000gt]

Thanks - will continue to decline, and book just the oil change at a dealership closer to home.

[RickDaTuner]

Honestly if this is what they call Service B, this is just straight up BS



The comprehensive 1.5-hour “B” service includes a thorough inspection and maintenance of your Honda’s critical components.

Oil & filter change
Comprehensive front & rear brake service
Tire rotation, inspection & pressure adjustment
Check for:
All fluid levels
Condition of fluid
Leaks
Expiration date for Tire Repair Kit (if equipped)
Full inspections of:
Parking brake adjustment
Tie rod ends
Steering gear box & boots
Suspension components
Driveshaft boots
Brake hoses & lines (including ABS)
Exhaust system
Fuel lines & connections

All of what's listed here I would always do on regular service, minus the brake cleaning and tire rotation.
Which at almost all places I have worked have only ever charged 0.3hr per.

And again nothing that is on that list will void your warranty with in 60k Kms if you choose not to take care of it.

[Mitsu3000gt]

That's the one - I thought the same thing. Also I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a "comprehensive brake service" at such low km, but they would probably just look at it and see that it's good and not proceed anyway.

[HiSpec]

I've stopped taking my parent's Honda to the dealership for any maintenance work aside from A1, which is just an oil change (it's free). Any other maintenance schedule items, I take it to my own mechanic.

Honestly, the items in the 'B' service should be a routine check when the mechanic is under the car while waiting for the oil to drain.

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by HiSpec
I've stopped taking my parent's Honda to the dealership for any maintenance work aside from A1, which is just an oil change (it's free). Any other maintenance schedule items, I take it to my own mechanic.

Honestly, the items in the 'B' service should be a routine check when the mechanic is under the car while waiting for the oil to drain. Which dealer? I thought if you skip the BS service, they cancel the "free" oil change program.

[RLK]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner



For the record flat cam lobes on an ecoboost due to incorrect oil wear is some what impossible as the hydraulic cam lifters all have rollers. It would take you running canola oil through the engine to get the rollers to seize and start to score the cams



This week I had a 6L powerstroke come in, the complaint was a chirp at idle. I diagnosed it, I was fairly sure it was a flat roller on a lifter.

The truck got sent to another tech because I don't really do heavy line repairs any more. He pulled the cab, and the engine.

He found cylinder 6 had a flat roller on one of the lifters and the cam lobe was destroyed, all other cam lobes are loosing their hardening.
This particular engine has 500 000 km on it, and he does not like to change his oil. This failure came from lack of maintenance or shit just plain wore out.
When the incorrect oil gets used you will see this type of damage at like 100 000 km.

It reminded me of this thread so I figured I would post some pics.

[RLK]

and the cam lobes

[EF9 Sedan]

Originally posted by RLK


This week I had a 6L powerstroke come in, the complaint was a chirp at idle. I diagnosed it, I was fairly sure it was a flat roller on a lifter.

The truck got sent to another tech because I don't really do heavy line repairs any more. He pulled the cab, and the engine.

He found cylinder 6 had a flat roller on one of the lifters and the cam lobe was destroyed, all other cam lobes are loosing their hardening.
This particular engine has 500 000 km on it, and he does not like to change his oil. This failure came from lack of maintenance or shit just plain wore out.
When the incorrect oil gets used you will see this type of damage at like 100 000 km.

It reminded me of this thread so I figured I would post some pics.

What spec of oil does the engine call for? What oil was used in it's place to cause that sort of damage?

[RickDaTuner]

That kind of wear is indicative of oil starvation to the head, more than likely a result of a failed oil pump. Which is a common problem of 6.0l engine.

This is not an oil quality issue.

[RLK]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
That kind of wear is indicative of oil starvation to the head, more than likely a result of a failed oil pump. Which is a common problem of 6.0l engine.

This is not an oil quality issue.

Well, I'm inclined to disagree with you because on the 6.0l powerstroke the cam is in the block not in the heads. The picture of the cam is taken from were the high pressure oil pump sits.
I have changed many, many high pressure pumps but only ever seen a few main oil pressure problems.



EF9:
The oil spec from ford is WSS-M2C171-D. What was in the engine, I don't know he gets his oil changed at a lube shop. When ever I see the truck its way over due for a oil change.

[TurboMedic]

Man, you sure are dramatic.

[ExtraSlow]

Cool post RLK. Thanks.

[Seth1968]

What a cluster fuck for something so simple.

Ignore the stealerships maintenance scam, and follow the engineers (the manual) word.

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by RLK


Well, I'm inclined to disagree with you because on the 6.0l powerstroke the cam is in the block not in the heads. The picture of the cam is taken from were the high pressure oil pump sits.
I have changed many, many high pressure pumps but only ever seen a few main oil pressure problems.



EF9:
The oil spec from ford is WSS-M2C171-D. What was in the engine, I don't know he gets his oil changed at a lube shop. When ever I see the truck its way over due for a oil change.

Disagree all you want, those cams are fed by the low pressure pump after passing through a pressure restrictor pill. If the pill or galleys to those squirters are block clogged, or stareved from and underperforming pump that is the result.

A concern like that is also commonly seen a vechilce that sees cold starts in -25 or bellow weather with out the use of oil/coolant/fuel heaters.

I'll bet you money that truck has had long crank complaints, and lack of power that a fuel filter wouldn't fix.

As curiosity what was your repair for that situation? Because I sure hope your shop didn't just put new cams and rollers in there.

And for simplification purposes the 6.0L requires CJ4 oil designation which is a Ford blended full synthetic with very low soot content

All in all I really don't see the point of your post? This is not an ecoboost engine, this is not an oill quality concern, albeit you do state that the engine does many miles beyond the service interval, in which case any and all betts are off wether Walmart brand or royal purple oil, and this result would be the same in any engine. Posting a 500k km engine with lobe/lifter damage does not make you credible, more so it just makes it look like you're out for an argument. If anything it's a testament that an engine will do long service with a variety of oil used throughout its life, because I am 100% this truck has not seen Ford CJ4 on every single oil change


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